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[Dice]

So I was just listening to some Dvorak and was reminded of something I thought a long time ago but never mentioned to anyone.

A New Hope - The Thone Room

vs

Symphony No.9 - 4th movement - Allegro con fuoco

It's pretty much undeniable. So was it a ripoff or a tribute?

I've noticed things in other works as well but this is the most blatant. It seems Williams um... really liked Dvorak's work.

Either way, I don't blame him. Dvorak is my fav.

 

[Prospero]

One of the main themes from Star Wars is lifted from Wagner's opera Siegfried, and there's some of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring mixed in there as well.

 

[dasein]

of course many of these modern film composers (elfman, zimmerman, williams,etc.) are widely considered awesome: they rip off from the best!

I still have respect for williams et al but sometimes their (modern film composers) rip-offs are so blatant I just cringe.

Also, it's almost near impossible to not be influenced by the best.

As the French impressionist Claude Debussy (my fav composer of all time) said:

"There's Bach in every one of us [composers]"

 

[argon]

His Empire theme is very similar to Host's "The Planets" as well. I heard he uses a "pocket score", which is a book with hundreds of selected famous musical phrases/melodies, so he can pick and choose from the best.

Ripped off or not, some of his themes are pretty damn memorable though.

 

[Dan]

His Empire theme is very similar to Host's "The Planets" as well.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of his Star Wars pieces were heavily 'influenced' by Holst's "The Planets", especially from "Mars". When I finally listened to "The Planets" a couple years ago it ruined a lot of that respect I had for Williams and the themes that I grew up loving.

I also detected some of Elfman's "Attack of the Batwing" in Williams' "Zam The Assassin and The Chase Through Coruscant" from Attack of the Clones. There's a cue or two in there that ripped me out of the film when I heard it.

 

[Thaedolus]

What the hell, at least provide us some examples (like, links..)

 

[jgkspsx]

His Empire theme is very similar to Holst's "The Planets" as well.

Yup, "Mars: The Bringer Of War" specifically. I can't stand Williams, his work is almost self-parodically repetitive.

I can't stand Hans Zimmer either for much the same reason. ****ing obvious and trite. It was the worst thing about Batman Begins.

P.S. Williams's song from Harry Potter 3 was great, though.

 

[Hitokage]

"The Imperial March" isn't the same as any part of "Mars: The Bringer of War". Just because two songs use the same technique doesn't make it a rip.

Also, I thought Batman Begins was different from previous Zimmer scores(maybe I don't listen to enough Zimmer), such as Gladiator which DID rip off "Mars" heavily. That being said, the DaVinci Code score is a retread of the Batman Begins score.

 

[Dice]

I have some 30 second sound clips, but I dunno if the mods would be cool with that.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I have some 30 second sound clips, but I dunno if the mods would be cool with that.

I would think Antonin Dvorak would be fine to post, and the Star Wars stuff would be fine to post as long as its midi. Heck, you might be able to find midi samples of both.

 

[jgkspsx]

"The Imperial March" isn't the same as any part of "Mars: The Bringer of War". Just because two songs use the same technique doesn't make it a rip.

It's not plagiarism, I'll grant, but it is undeniably pastiche.

 

[Hitokage]

It's not plagiarism, I'll grant, but it is undeniably pastiche.

Yeah, but if it's the part I'm thinking of, it's not even used in the same way.

 

[Solo]

Gladiator which DID rip off "Mars" heavily.

Winnar. This is the most blatant of all recent music theft.

 

[Sapiens]

Bad artists borrow, good artists steal

or something like that

it was Picasso who said that


get over it, nerd-sleuths - no one really cares

 

[Willco]

This is ridiculous. It's like blues purists claiming that modern rock or some of the most popular rock bands of all-time, from Aerosmith to the Rolling Stones, are nothing but blatant knock offs of electric blues and older. When you're dealing with the origin of any art form, it's hard for anyone to not sound, look and/or read like it in some capacity. The difference is that classical music seems to draw a certain kind of music snob due its niche appeal.

 

[Dice]

This is ridiculous. It's like blues purists claiming that modern rock or some of the most popular rock bands of all-time, from Aerosmith to the Rolling Stones, are nothing but blatant knock offs of electric blues and older. When you're dealing with the origin of any art form, it's hard for anyone to not sound, look and/or read like it in some capacity. The difference is that classical music seems to draw a certain kind of music snob due its niche appeal.

You wouldn't say that if you'd listen to the two scores, it's quite ridiculous. The parts I'm talking about even happen about the same time into the piece, about 15 seconds in for both of them.

 

[Willco]

You wouldn't say that if you'd listen to the two scores, it's quite ridiculous. The parts I'm talking about even happen about the same time into the piece, about 15 seconds in for both of them.

OMG THERE ARE PARTS OF VAN HALEN THAT SOUND EXACTLY LIKE MUDDY WATERS, SOMEONE CALL THE MUSIC POLICE.

 

[fallengorn]

Winnar. This is the most blatant of all recent music theft.

I remember watching Gladiator and hated Zimmer for such a blatant ripoff. But thinking back maybe it was intentional? A near facsimile of Mars: The Bringer of War played while the Romans fought the barbarian horde. If there was a theme to steal, I don't think you could find one more fitting.

 

[Sapiens]

You wouldn't say that if you'd listen to the two scores, it's quite ridiculous. The parts I'm talking about even happen about the same time into the piece, about 15 seconds in for both of them.

does it really matter though? no

John Williams is still a master - yes, his HP3 score was great. The work he did for Munich was beautifully understated. John Williams isn't a hack just because he likes to steal here and there - every great artist does it

get over it.

 

[Sapiens]

Guys! Did you hear? The music from Amadeus was stolen from Mozart!!!


Fukkk!

 

[Dice]

OMG THERE ARE PARTS OF VAN HALEN THAT SOUND EXACTLY LIKE MUDDY WATERS, SOMEONE CALL THE MUSIC POLICE.

Dude, I've taken music theory, I know the difference between "oops, that sounds similar" and "hey, I think I'll do that same thing". Besides, there's a difference between Jimmy Page wanting to slip some cool Robert Johnson lick into his single-instrument solo and an entire freaking orchestra.

does it really matter though? no

John Williams is still a master - yes, his HP3 score was great. The work he did for Munich was beautifully understated. John Williams isn't a hack just because he likes to steal here and there - every great artist does it

get over it.

Thank you for taking the "tribute" position as well as taking offense to a point I never made.

 

[Willco]

Dude, I've taken music theory...

CASE CLOSED.

 

[Sapiens]

Dude, I've taken music theory, I know the difference between "oops, that sounds similar" and "hey, I think I'll do that same thing". Besides, it's one thing if Jimmy Page wants to slip some cool Robert Johnson lick into his single-instrument solo and an entire freaking orchestra.

Thank you for taking the "tribute" position as well as taking offense to a point I never made.

Really, in the end, these are scores written for popcorn flicks. As much as people think something like Star Wars is life affirming and important, it really isn't. John Williams is just using his extensive knowledge of music and its history to fill in the auditory blanks for hack directors. in 100 years, no one will care about star wars, but Dvorak will persist.

 

[Hitokage]

Bad artists borrow, good artists steal

or something like that

it was Picasso who said that


get over it, nerd-sleuths - no one really cares

It's "Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal", and some attribute the quote to T. S. Elliot.

 

[Sapiens]

It's "Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal", and some attribute the quote to T. S. Elliot.

well, i found a link on the internet that says it was picasso - and my guess was pretty close

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/3500

my point remains firm

 

[Hitokage]

When I first read it in a literature text, it was attributed to Elliot, but it doesn't really matter to the quote itself.

 

[jgkspsx]

When you're dealing with the origin of any art form, it's hard for anyone to not sound, look and/or read like it in some capacity.

Yeah, Holst and Dvorak are certainly the origins of orchestral music all right. But I don't really mind Williams and Zimmer ripping off older composers.

It's the similarities between Williams's scores that drive me crazy. (Try listening to Close Encounters, Star Wars, and ET in a row.) It may even be that the identical way he's used by directors is what turns me off. Come to think of it, Spielberg and Lucas are the great majority of my exposure to him (though the Harry Potter scores seemed very well-trodden -- it was a relief that the fourth wasn't Williams).

Zimmer is just a hack purveyor of cliches, though. Like in Batman Begins,

Spoiler

the Waynes die, cue generic church-mode female vocal. Blech.

 

[Hitokage]

I actually didn't mind Gladiator's "Mars" bits all that much, as I'm open to new arrangements of previous works.

However, what DOES bug me to no end are composers who write just one or two short themes for a movie, and then hamfistedly spread it to cover 50-60 minutes. One paticularly bad example of this is Adams Family Values, which is litterally the same fanfare over and over and over. ARGH.

 

[Sapiens]

When I first read it in a literature text, it was attributed to Elliot, but it doesn't really matter to the quote itself.

you're still wrong - that is all that matters

 

[Hitokage]

you're still wrong - that is all that matters

At least I don't have an ugly psychopath for an avatar.

 

[Sapiens]

At least I don't have an ugly psychopath for an avatar.

Tom Cruise is the most handsome scientologist

 

[Sagitario]

I just want to reply this:

I ****ing love Dvorák's Symphony No.9, 4th movement...

Any song that uses some kind of classical strings (and the kind of stuff, violin, chello, etc.) is OK in my book... (Metallica with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra <3<3<3<3)

 

[temp]

though the Harry Potter scores seemed very well-trodden -- it was a relief that the fourth wasn't Williams

You're kidding me.

 

[Prospero]

In defense of Williams, every once in a while he'll do something that's off the wall for him, just to change things up. Listen to his scores for Images, JFK, or A.I. (which is influenced more by 20th c. minimalist composers like Steve Reich than anyone else). I'd put his HP3 score in that category too, actually--for a mainstream film with a nine-digit budget, its score is pretty bizarre.

 

[charlesthefirst]

This isn't a new thing in music. Even old great composers took things from other great composers from the past. For example, The Final Movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony and the final movement of Brahms First Symphony. The theme is almost literally the same. He was railed by critics for it, but it was his way of paying homage to one of his major influences. This sort of thing has been going on in music and has been done by some of the greatest composers for centuries.

 

[ronito]

"The Imperial March" isn't the same as any part of "Mars: The Bringer of War".

WRONG!

It's a rip off of "A Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down". I've said it here before but the middle section of the imperial section is just that song in a minor key with some march timing to it.

BTW OP: Duh!

 

[maharg]

One paticularly bad example of this is Adams Family Values, which is litterally the same fanfare over and over and over. ARGH.

Out of all the things to hate about adams family values, you choose the music?

 

[Callo Merlose]

At least I don't have an ugly psychopath for an avatar.

Looks like one of the baddies from the Astroboy game, the ones that hate robots.

 

[Tarazet]

This isn't a new thing in music. Even old great composers took things from other great composers from the past. For example, The Final Movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony and the final movement of Brahms First Symphony. The theme is almost literally the same. He was railed by critics for it, but it was his way of paying homage to one of his major influences. This sort of thing has been going on in music and has been done by some of the greatest composers for centuries.

Musical borrowing is nothing new. Samuel Barber uses the rhythmic motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony at least once in literally everything he wrote, and Ives' Second Sonata uses it every couple of bars. The Grieg Piano Concerto, and particularly the first movement, is an undisguised rewriting of Schumann's Piano Concerto - and Rachmaninoff went one step further by writing a First Concerto that was almost indistinguishable in many parts from the Grieg, which he adored.

Hell, if you go back to the Baroque era, composers like Bach, Handel and Vivaldi took each others' music, or parts of it, and slapped their names on it for a performance. Music was considered disposable anyway, to be played once and then discarded, so they just did what we would now call "brand engineering" to get the best mileage out of good ideas without letting on to the Prince that he was not, in fact, the first and last person ever to hear this particular trio.

I see nothing wrong with it. When I compose music, I start with what I know and love, and just start changing things until it sounds like me rather than Brahms.

 

[ronito]

BTW it should be said that this is only for his Soundtrack work. His violin concerto is nothing like anything....um....enjoyable.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I'm sure I heard the Jaws theme in a classical piece, but I don't remember which.

 

[Tarazet]

I'm sure I heard the Jaws theme in a classical piece, but I don't remember which.

It sounds a lot like the opening to the Ravel Concerto for Piano (left hand alone) and Orchestra.

 

[blindrocket]

Williams is the worst at "borrowing" music.