how about let him speak about the issues he faced and enjoy developing on another platform at the same time?? woah
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Jonathan Blow : "doing a deal with MS is an existential risk for your company & game"
- Thread starter maquiladora
- Start date
But we know for a fact not ALL Indies had bad experiences.
if you watch a movie and hate it, do you make sure you stop everyone else from watching it?
Woo-Fu
Banned
Uh, they have a larger install base and an easier to develop for platform. It is called money, people will put up with a lot of things to make more of it. My entirely subjective opinion is that PSN gets the more interesting stuff. Quality > quantity unless you run out of games to play, which I don't.
On another topic, I don't see much point in complaining about Jonathan Blow answering the questions he is asked in interviews. If you're tired of what he has to say then stop reading the interviews and let the publications no that you don't want to see any more of them.
Please elaborate on this because I can't figure out what it means or why it matters. Not everybody who walks through the woods gets bit by a snake either, doesn't mean you shouldn't watch for snakes.
BruiserBear
Banned
He's not stopping anyone from making an Xbox game.
njean777
Member
Enough have complained now that it is a problem. You can try to ignore it all you want, but it is a problem. Fish, Team Meat, Blow, 2d boy (world of goo), etc. Have all complained and have made their voices heard. Now no not all indies have had a bad experience, but just seeing many of these "exclusive" XBLA games come on steam makes me think that all is not kosher at MS anymore.
Also he is not stopping anybody from making a game on XBLA, he is just warning them of the problems.
I don't think Microsoft will abandon their gaming division that fast.
Their poster boy for openness and 'no hurdles' doesn't even know how the system works yet?
krypt0nian
Banned
I think it's pretty brave to use a position that he has to warn other smaller devs about the current situation over at Microsoft. He could have just enjoyed his riches and remained silent like a lot of other intimidated indies.
Kudos to him.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
This dude could eat babies for breakfast and I'd still defend Braid to death. Shows that you don't need to admire to artist to appreciate the art.
SolarPowered
Member
Microsoft's Q&A policies have been such a thorn in Lab Zero's side it's not even funny. I wouldn't lose sleep if a sequel had a PC port instead of an Xbone version. Hopefully we get a day one PC release next time and people gravitate towards that and the PS4 version.
Majority of the indies complaining about XBLA do so because of the ridiculous price of patching their games: many don't realize that the main purpose of this fee is to discourage studios from putting out poor quality, broken or buggy titles in the first place. It is a quality control enforcement. Many people complain about unfinished or broken games, first day patches etc being a bad thing this generation - the fee on XBLA patches is meant to address this. Many people see it as greed from Microsoft...I think it's probably somewhere in between.
EDIT: Microsoft also charges their internal studios this fee - Microsoft Studios and Microsoft Xbox are 2 separate divisions.
EDIT: Microsoft also charges their internal studios this fee - Microsoft Studios and Microsoft Xbox are 2 separate divisions.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Wasn't it like 8000 dollars for a 2nd patch if i remember correctly?
What these indies are calling "hurdles" are just the price to play the game properly so to speak. MS doesnt just throw it's full QA team and support in for free just for allowing a game or approving a patch on XBLA. Testing a game with two devs and their families isnt exactly proper QA lol. Granted it probably can be streamlined a bit to make it less grating on everyone but I think policies like those are necessary to a degree.
Yeah, makes no sense at all to leave like this and burn everything. What if X1 sells 200 million units and PS4 50? If somebody is a risk for his company it's himself.
Ninjagorilla
Member
As far as I know Vlambeer hasn't worked with Microsoft Gaming Studios, so I don't see the point of asking them as it just becomes hearsay.
I have to say working with MS was a good experience when we worked with them on ilomilo. I believe most people on the team felt that way.
EDIT: well maybe they have, but to my knowledge they haven't released anything with them.-
I have to say working with MS was a good experience when we worked with them on ilomilo. I believe most people on the team felt that way.
EDIT: well maybe they have, but to my knowledge they haven't released anything with them.-
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
In theory. And cert testing should be the primary mechanism to enforce that, not patch stinginess. What actually happens is that the bugs are found after launch and never fixed because it's too expensive. It's impossible to find every bug before a game is released.
I think it was done to cut down on the data usage required. But it seems silly now that the games are in the 2GB neighborhood.
Oh ok. I guess that invalidates his points then.
Looking at it from a purely business point of view of course you are right and burning bridges is dumb, Blow isn't. I don't think he cares if he goes onto a less popular platform as long as it is one that doesn't conflict (or at least conflicts least) with his ethical code.
Now you might see that as dumb, he's leaving money on the table but not everyone gets into making games/music/movies etc for the money. Some people just want to be creative.
Also on the flip side I think his burned bridges are less important than everyone thinks, if his new game sells mad bank on the PS4/Steam etc then Microsoft aren't going to ignore him because he said mean things about them, they'll try their best to get a piece of that pie.
That's nice in theory, but in practice it means that the companies that can afford it budget for patching on day 1, while independent developers wind up stuck with buggy games that they can't afford to fix because of Microsoft's external costs. Nobody wins in that scenario.
Platform holders should adopt policies that are the most likely to bring consumers games that work well. Every other platform has moved in this direction, and it's sad to see Microsoft refusing to follow suit.
I never said that, I agree with him completely.
I just said his game doesn't look that interesting, but i'm judging prematurely and might even try it out when it launches.
I don't know why people are jumping on Blow about this, from what we know of MSs policies on XBLA its really easy to see how they could have pissed a load of people off, especially if you're in charge of production.
Sony moving to x86 will definitely provide stiffer competition for MS this time round which hopefully will force them to improve or fail. I'd personally be sad if they failed because even though 360 policies have ended up holding them back, XBLA really did kick start this whole Indy revival that otherwise would have been contained solely on mobile.
Sony moving to x86 will definitely provide stiffer competition for MS this time round which hopefully will force them to improve or fail. I'd personally be sad if they failed because even though 360 policies have ended up holding them back, XBLA really did kick start this whole Indy revival that otherwise would have been contained solely on mobile.
He'll stay on PC then.
So he's indebted to ME forever?
We do know several of them have though. For example Skullgirls developer Mike Zaimont pretty much reiterates on stream every week that working as an indie with MS is hell.
Drunk?
Still surprise to see so many people hurt to its words. I don't see what exactly has said of so terrible about microsoft policies. People need to stop to be defensive about the multinational companies policies, it's completely irrational. I don't know in what world exactly live someone to post some comment.
If the devil asks you to dance you better say never cause a dance with the devil might last you forever.
on a related note, it kind of saddens me that thatgamecompany is no more . correction: drove them to the brink of bankruptcy.
No idea, what happened there. But disbanding after creating arguably one of the highest rated almost 'indie' typish game is kind of shame. Especially, after being voted gaf's game of the year. I mean look at the crowd they joined. A very select group. :/
No idea, what happened there. But disbanding after creating arguably one of the highest rated almost 'indie' typish game is kind of shame. Especially, after being voted gaf's game of the year. I mean look at the crowd they joined. A very select group. :/
This is like that rich kid luring a bunch of other poor kids into doing something really stupid, if they get caught the rich kid will get bailed out by his parents and live life great, the poor kids meanwhile wont get that courtesy and might end up in jail
The rich kid is Microsoft, they can afford to make this gamble, sure heads will roll if the Xbone does not meet their own sales expectations, but the company is not in any real risk, its pocket change for MS, the entertainment/gaming division does not even matter that much in that company. But any other indie or even major party publisher is taking a huge gamble here, they do not have the deep pockets, some of them are even on the ropes (EA).
The rich kid is Microsoft, they can afford to make this gamble, sure heads will roll if the Xbone does not meet their own sales expectations, but the company is not in any real risk, its pocket change for MS, the entertainment/gaming division does not even matter that much in that company. But any other indie or even major party publisher is taking a huge gamble here, they do not have the deep pockets, some of them are even on the ropes (EA).
An existential ; crisis.....
I would like to have people look that up.
Coming off a game that sold 500K for MS, and then expanded to Steam and such. I would love to know where the guilt Blow was feeling came from, and the half of year of having his strap shut came from.
I would like to have people look that up.
Coming off a game that sold 500K for MS, and then expanded to Steam and such. I would love to know where the guilt Blow was feeling came from, and the half of year of having his strap shut came from.
The company still exists but a lot of key people left. So Jenova Chen is basically the only one left from the original team iirc.
Not just gaming studios. A partnership with MS has long been seen as a death sentence in the software world.
dragonelite
Member
And you wonder if he even reads a contract or at least hire a adviser before inking a contract.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Can you give some recent examples?
Kenshin001
Member
Funny reading Blow's comments and then on the same page is a thread about Undead Labs selling more than 270k of their game in a couple of days. I'm pretty sure they are happy, probably happier than devs whose game sells abysmally on PSN. Not to say all games are successes on XBLA, I think Monaco was the latest flop, and I really think MS should allow self publishing but I don't get the hate for XBLA as a platform.
Braid sold a hell of a lot on XBLA and Blow still dislikes them
I don't think raw sales necessarily means Microsoft treat you right
Correct. It means there's a platform that has a great success rate with sales.
The dash everyone seems to hate so much is a big reason for it. I actually think the removal of the "Arcade" and "Indie" branding will actually help those smaller games even more so.
Thanks for that. Apparently they were driven close to bankruptcy. A lot of key people left, but Jenova Chen is there still.
Obviously not talk. You see, this guy is just sending media e-mails trashing Microsoft. He's insane, man.
You know what, this bit got me thinking for a minute. Before anything, this is in no way an attack on you, I don't know you and have no reason to think ill of you. But this 'If not for MS' is an element which appeared several times in this thread and... yeah, ok, I can see it without difficulty. MS offered a way for Blow to release his game, the game was a huge success (critically at least), it launched the indie initiative on 360 and was maybe even part of the reason for the indie spotlight of the past few years (with World of Goo etc...).
I can see it that way but... in what kind of bizarro world are we living here ?
In what other creative industry are we really thanking the content provider over the creator himself ? No thank you Mr Creator, but thank you Mr Content Provider for the holy tubes that conveyed the game ?
I truly dislike analogies because most of the time they are bad and remind me of the early days of the internet when all heated discussions were some strange analogy-festa including cars in a way or another, but, and pardon me as I am about to sin... do people thank Miramax over a director, for example ?
It's just so strange.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Kenshin001 said:
Don't confuse sales performance with the overall experience of developing a title with MS as your publisher, these two things are quite separate. What Blow seems to be railing against is the overly bureaucratic and controlling way MS deals with developers - which as I've heard from various sources- *can* be exhausting and frustrating if you don't see eye-to-eye with them.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Oh man, this. So this.