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K-Pop Fanboy/Fangirl |OT4| Most Lurkers on GAF

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ramyeon

Member
I guess we just have differing opinions. I understand what you mean now though, but I still personally don't see any problem with it. Honestly the only thing I have a problem with is that guy groups can take off their shirts and thrust all the time and it's ok but as soon as a girl group shows the slightest bit of sexuality there's outcry (not this incident in particular), but that's another issue that's prevalent everywhere, in the entertainment industry and otherwise.
Yeah that's cool man, everyone is going to have different opinions on this kind of thing and it's good to talk about it. That's why I posted it, I was trying to get a discussion going. But dismissing people who are uncomfortable with that kind of choreo isn't right and expecting everyone to be okay with it isn't either. I don't pay any attention to boy bands or the reaction to their choreo so I'm not sure. Sexuality isn't bad anyway, that's not what I'm saying. I just think there's a certain level of tact they should have and I honestly don't think this is anything besides the company wanting some press about Dal Shabet for their comeback, it's the wrong way to use sexuality imo.
It's not prevalent in this thread, unless you are Ramyeon.
Errr this is the first time I've raised this issue at all. I tried PMing you last time to get the low down on your issues with me but you ignored me so whatever man, continue :) You apparently enjoy making broad generalisations and assumptions about me based on single instances.

Besides, you say that as if questioning and actually having a thoughtful discussion about sexuality in kpop is a bad thing.
 
tumblr_mohxerkf6r1r8efvdo1_500.gif
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I'm not seeing a whole lot of "purpose or benefit" to a hell of a lot of other dances idols do.

But I'll be clear. I think objectification is something the viewer does. I have a hell of a lot of experience with analyzing these things from my religious days. I turn my mind to myself and consider how I view women. Have I objectified them? Do I? When? Why?

Their behavior or dress could only incite something, but I always had the choice, and always do. I can enjoy a beautiful girl in an objectified manner when she's just being cute, conversely I can look at a stripper and think about her life and what she deals with and feels, or I can enjoy a show a girl is putting on with a dance in the frame of a social connection where she is being sexy for the fun of it to express that side of humanity and I receive it as the one she is directing it to in appreciation of her as a person including her physical beauty and her celebration/expression of her sexiness as a fun thing. There can always be one or the other or both things going on, and the mindfulness and respect is always a choice I make that is not made for me by her dress or behavior.

As for empowerment, I see that as an entirely separate dimension to things, and while in some sense connected to objectification from others, it is far more connected to judgement, which is another thing I am familiar with considering as I tried not to judge others. If I see a girl dressed or acting in a certain way, how can I know what it means to her just by seeing? How do I know if it is degrading compliance or fun or boldness to her? I don't. But if I automatically judge the action in itself, I have done her a disservice, both looking down on her and also placing a controlling attitude over her life about what she is allowed to do or wear in order for me to still respect her. Neither is fair if I don't really know what is going on with her.

I do understand the perspective you are coming from. There are actions that a woman can do that are much more-likely and perhaps even intended to gain a response of objectification from men, and in one sense if you are seen as an object rather than a person that is socially disempowering in some ways. However, if kept entirely there by those rules, that makes women's freedom of expression subject to men's minds, especially if you start judging them for crossing a certain threshold, which is something utterly nebulous and up to the personal responsibility and individual limits of each man. Judgement like that is the foundation of purity culture which is attributive to suppression of women's freedoms, a component of rape culture.

Is it complicated? In one sense yes. Because on the one hand you leave them to such personal freedoms of sexual expression while withholding judgement, yet on the other hand you know there is a definite connection between the actions and the objectification that is the other side of the same coin (minimization of their person) that you're trying to restrain, so you don't want to hold a double standard between what you expect of yourself and what you expect as a standard from them. But therein is the major catch, which in another sense makes it very simple. We aren't talking about a standard of behavior to result in appropriateness, we are discussing freedoms for them on one side and mental self control for us on the other. So both the judgement and the objectification are under the control and responsibility of the men, no connection to women's freedoms except when we use their decision to use their freedoms to excuse ourselves from our responsibilities.

So the answer, in my view, is to stop judging women for what we do or what we think. It is unjust to women to do that, and also degrading of fellow men to consider them as helpless to properly direct their minds to appreciate sexuality as well as the personhood of the women who wield it. These sort of acts from women may be immature in that they play off those old instincts and patriarchal social dynamics, so I think it is okay to consider them immature in that view, but I can't put "shameful" in there without feeling as guilty as if I were objectifying them like the men I would use to justify that accusation. Is it inherently risky on their part since it is a play on instincts which come to all without social training? Yes. But socialization to control our instincts is something we have done with many things, and I think we can do it with sexuality if we openly allow and face these things and try rather than stuff it away. Taking that risk in freedom, to me, is a step made from someone already empowered, choosing their own life and risks regardless of what people think.
 

ramyeon

Member
I'm not seeing a whole lot of "purpose or benefit" to a hell of a lot of other dances idols do.

But I'll be clear. I think objectification is something the viewer does. I have a hell of a lot of experience with analyzing these things from my religious days. I turn my mind to myself and consider how I view women. Have I objectified them? Do I? When? Why?

Their behavior or dress could only incite something, but I always had the choice, and always do. I can enjoy a beautiful girl in an objectified manner when she's just being cute, conversely I can look at a stripper and think about her life and what she deals with and feels, or I can enjoy a show a girl is putting on with a dance in the frame of a social connection where she is being sexy for the fun of it to express that side of humanity and I receive it as the one she is directing it to in appreciation of her as a person including her physical beauty and her celebration/expression of her sexiness as a fun thing. There can always be one or the other or both things going on, and the mindfulness and respect is always a choice I make that is not made for me by her dress or behavior.

As for empowerment, I see that as an entirely separate dimension to things, and while in some sense connected to objectification from others, it is far more connected to judgement, which is another thing I am familiar with considering as I tried not to judge others. If I see a girl dressed or acting in a certain way, how can I know what it means to her just by seeing? How do I know if it is degrading compliance or fun or boldness to her? I don't. But if I automatically judge the action in itself, I have done her a disservice, both looking down on her and also placing a controlling attitude over her life about what she is allowed to do for me to respect her. Neither is fair if I don't really know what is going on with her.

I do understand the perspective you are coming from. There are actions that a woman can do that are much more-likely and perhaps even intended to gain a response of objectification from men, and in one sense if you are seen as an object rather than a person that is socially disempowering in some ways. However, if kept entirely there by those rules, that makes women's freedom of expression subject to men's minds, especially if you start judging them for crossing a certain threshold, which is something utterly nebulous and up to the personal responsibility and individual limits of each man. Judgement like that is the foundation of purity culture which is attributive to suppression of women's freedoms, a component of rape culture.

Is it complicated? In one sense yes. Because on the one hand you leave them to such personal freedoms of sexual expression while withholding judgement, yet on the other hand you know there is a definite connection between the actions and the objectification that is the other side of the same coin (minimization of their person) that you're trying to restrain, so you don't want to hold a double standard between what you expect of yourself and what you expect as a standard from them. But Therein is the major catch, which in another sense makes it very simple. We aren't talking about a standard of behavior to result in appropriateness, we are discussing freedoms for them on one side and mental self control for us on the other. So both the judgement and the objectification are under the control and responsibility of the men, no connection to their freedoms except when we use their decision to use their freedoms to excuse ourselves from our responsibilities.

So the answer, in my view, is to stop judging women for what we do or what we think. It is unjust to women to do that, and also degrading of fellow men to consider them as helpless to properly direct their minds to appreciate sexuality as well as the personhood of the women who wield it. These things may be immature in that they play off those old instincts and patriarchal social dynamics, so I think it is okay to consider them immature in that view, but I can't put "shameful" in there without feeling as guilty as if I were objectifying them like the men I would use to justify that accusation. It is inherently risky on their part since it is a play on instincts which come to all without social training? Yes. But socialization to control our instincts is something we have done with many things, and I think we can do it with sexuality if we openly allow and face these things and try rather than try to stuff it away.
Good insight, I'll have to read it again later though since I have an exam to head to soon. I'll touch on the idea that to consider it objectifying is to degrade them and unjust. In this case you have an idol group who almost definitely did not decide they wanted to dance like that, nor probably had much choice in the concept or choreography at all. It's one thing for a woman to be confident of her sexuality and another when they've pretty much been told to get on stage and take their skirts off.

I can't speak for the personal feelings of the members of course, but the reason I say this is objectifying is because they've most likely been told to do it without any input of their own, it's men projecting their sexual fantasies onto idols like this that is the problem, not the simple act of them doing it. The girls themselves aren't the ones that are objectifying them, and although a lot of men are it's not particularly the fans either but it's more-so the company behind them and the people who came up with the concept in my opinion.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Okay that is another side of it that I can definitely recognize. Being familiar with the common setup, it probably isn't a far stretch to say that most of the things here were thought up by men as things they wanted the girls to do. So whether they personally objectified them or tried to take on the mindset of what they think male fans would want (vicarious objectification?) they still dictated this and that would be something to be against.

However... One still can't be sure the skirt thing wasn't an idea from a female choreographer, and one can't know how pleased or displeased the girls are in doing this sort of thing. From what I have seen, Dal Shabet have come off on the more pro-sexy side of things. Nothing as clear as Hyosung, who openly talks about how she is working on it and wants to grow in powerful sexiness, but I'll just say I haven't seen much evidence of displeasure or shyness from them.

But yeah, I get the dictated-sexiness issue. It could well be at play here.
 

giri

Member
You're off the mark Ramyeon.

It's not sexualising them any more than any other performance.

Stripper poles, Chest thrusting, the poison split leg dance, hyoseung boob shake, shorts that aren't as bigger as my boxer shorts.

It's no more overt than any other performance in the slightest.

You got a problem with that, then you've got a problem with girls taking off their jackets to reveal a shirt under neath.
 

ramyeon

Member
You're off the mark Ramyeon.

It's not sexualising them any more than any other performance.

Stripper poles, Chest thrusting, the poison split leg dance, hyoseung boob shake, shorts that aren't as bigger as my boxer shorts.

It's no more overt than any other performance in the slightest.

You got a problem with that, then you've got a problem with girls taking off their jackets to reveal a shirt under neath.
Off the mark of my personal moral compass? I don't get it, how can that be wrong?

Comparing a girl taking off her skirt like that to taking off a jacket is a really silly comparison man.

Okay that is another side of it that I can definitely recognize. Being familiar with the common setup, it probably isn't a far stretch to say that most of the things here were thought up by men as things they wanted the girls to do. So whether they personally objectified them or tried to take on the mindset of what they think male fans would want (vicarious objectification?) they still dictated this and that would be something to be against.

However... One still can't be sure the skirt thing wasn't an idea from a female choreographer, and one can't know how pleased or displeased the girls are in doing this sort of thing. From what I have seen, Dal Shabet have come off on the more pro-sexy side of things. Nothing as clear as Hyosung, who openly talks about how she is working on it and wants to grow in powerful sexiness, but I'll just say I haven't seen much evidence of displeasure or shyness from them.

But yeah, I get the dictated-sexiness issue. It could well be at play here.
Oh yeah it could well have been a female choreographer, and like I said yeah I can't speak for them and it's pretty much impossible to know for sure since anything they show is pretty much a pre decided image from their company anyway. I dunno, I think I've come across as more passionate about it than I really am but I think it's an interesting discussion and worth thinking about. Thanks for the good reply though, there are a lot of good points I hadn't thought about.
 

ramyeon

Member
Not nearly as bad as the images led me to believe anyway. With the lyrics it's pretty obvious what they were going for, though. I'm glad it's not just taking off a real skirt though, as that would have been just too weird imo.
It's not silly, it's pretty accurate.
Taking off a jacket doesn't have the same sexual connotation that taking a skirt does, but they don't even do that in the video anyway, they're just skirt-like frills.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
One thing is certain: They are VERY sexy.

The song is typical of them. They have a signature sound but generally keep it fresh. It's easy to put all their albums on shuffle and have a good time.
 

ramyeon

Member
One thing is certain: They are VERY sexy.

The song is typical of them. They have a signature sound but generally keep it fresh. It's easy to put all their albums on shuffle and have a good time.
Yeah I think we can all agree on that lol.

And their songs are always great, hopefully the rest of the album is more of that.
 

Fuzzery

Member
...

So the answer, in my view, is to stop judging women for what we do or what we think. It is unjust to women to do that, and also degrading of fellow men to consider them as helpless to properly direct their minds to appreciate sexuality as well as the personhood of the women who wield it. These sort of acts from women may be immature in that they play off those old instincts and patriarchal social dynamics, so I think it is okay to consider them immature in that view, but I can't put "shameful" in there without feeling as guilty as if I were objectifying them like the men I would use to justify that accusation. Is it inherently risky on their part since it is a play on instincts which come to all without social training? Yes. But socialization to control our instincts is something we have done with many things, and I think we can do it with sexuality if we openly allow and face these things and try rather than stuff it away. Taking that risk in freedom, to me, is a step made from someone already empowered, choosing their own life and risks regardless of what people think.


Well said
 
http://www.allkpop.com/article/2013/06/lizzy-claims-shes-the-best-at-finding-peoples-nipples

After School's Lizzy revealed that she had a special talent - pinpointing the exact location of nipples (under clothes, that is)!

Yes, the talent is as bizarre as it sounds. On the 19th's episode of MBC's 'Radio Star', MC Kim Gu Ra asked Lizzy, "Lately, Suzy is considered the top idol these days. Is there something you can do better than Suzy?". Lizzy answered confidently, "I'm good at finding the bust point or the nipple. I can poke it accurately at once."

Lizzy then demonstrated on guest Kim Jin Soo, and then also on Kim Gu Ra. Kim Gu Ra then pointed out, "You say you're better than Suzy at this, but I don't think Suzy even tries this kind of thing", cracking up the entire set.

As bizarre as her talent is, apparently she really is good at it! Kim Gura said, "It wasn't perfect, but if I were to compare it to archery, it'll be that border between the 9 and 10 mark on the target." Kim Jin Soo added, "For me, she got it right where the camera would be [the very center of the target]", which left the MCs shaking their head in total amusement as they wondered if they had just really compared poking nipples to the sport of archery.
 

neoism

Member
Looks like it could be henna but why does it matter if she has a tattoo or not?
nah thats tae
Goddesses skin such as Taeyeon's shouldn't be tainted with ink... :p it doesn't really. I'm sure its fake, doubt she would go through the pain.
 
I noticed a few hours ago that the Fugitive song was removed/taken down. The other songs in that artist's profile are still there though. Coincidence?

tumblr_ml4a0uM3r11s8koxeo2_250.gif
tumblr_ml4a0uM3r11s8koxeo1_250.gif

tumblr_ml4a0uM3r11s8koxeo3_r1_250.gif
tumblr_ml4a0uM3r11s8koxeo4_250.gif
 

ramyeon

Member
Dal Shabet soundish, but too cute and generic. Bang Bang was better.
Also I just remembered Morning Musume had also a song named Be Ambitious.
I remember Miyavi having a song called "Girls, be ambitious" too from back in my jrock days. Seen it a few other places as well haha.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
well you gave up on hammie.
Just because I am not destined to be Hammie's husband doesn't mean I am not part of La Kamilia. I was before I fell in love and still am after I realized we aren't meant to be.
 

ramyeon

Member
Watching M Countdown for the first time in awhile and... Damn, this BTS group or whatever are insufferable.

Almost as much as the MCing on music shows lol.

Dal Shabet come out on stage sexy dancing with copies of their album... haha.
 

giri

Member
Watching M Countdown for the first time in awhile and... Damn, this BTS group or whatever are insufferable.

Almost as much as the MCing on music shows lol.

Dal Shabet come out on stage sexy dancing with copies of their album... haha.

And here i am, stuck at work still.

seriously considering going to SWN for beer.
 

Just another alright song. :|

In all seriousness though, whoever thought this was a good idea should be fired. I can see that they're doing it to try and pull Dal Shabet out of their rut of rookie level obscurity, a pretty sad state of affairs for the group since it's been a few years since their debut, but I really can't see this doing them any favours with the greater public. Especially with the current public outcry against this sort of choreography.

kqgSH.gif



Pretty good. I like the choreo.

Looks like it could be henna but why does it matter if she has a tattoo or not?

It matters because I think tattoos are an ugly trend. Humans should not be permanently scarring their skin like that. I do not want to see tattoos on my favorite idols.
 

ramyeon

Member
What's funny? The fact that Dal Shabet are still relative nobodies despite being around for so long or that their company is trying to generate press by using overtly sexual choreography?

I know you're trying to be witty and snide by saying I'm overreacting but it would be interesting to have some input beyond copy and paste gif
It matters because I think tattoos are an ugly trend. Humans should not be permanently scarring their skin like that. I do not want to see tattoos on my favorite idols.
kqgSH.gif
 
What's funny? The fact that Dal Shabet are still relative nobodies despite being around for so long or that their company is trying to generate press by using overtly sexual choreography?

I know you're trying to be witty and snide by saying I'm overreacting but it would be interesting to have some input beyond copy and paste gif

kqgSH.gif

I have nothing further to add to what's already been said by others much wiser and articulate than myself. I still felt that your opinion was ridiculous enough to warrant a reaction image.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Tattoos can be beautiful, but people rarely have the sense to get such a tattoo.
 

ramyeon

Member
Tattoos can be beautiful, but people rarely have the sense to get such a tattoo.
Well beauty as a standard varies person to person. And as far as tattoos go it's their body, as long as they think it's beautiful and significant to them that's all that matters. I may not necessarily find it attractive but that's no reason to say people shouldn't get them.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I wouldn't say shouldn't, but very ill-advised for an industry where looks are a huge part. I really love quality tattoos, though.
 

llehuty

Member
I love the verses, but I'm not feeling the chorus of Dal Shabet's song.


Girl’s Day Confirm “Female President” as Title Track of Repackaged Album

the repackaged first album “Female President” is being produced as a special limited edition that will have a 80-page photobook and pocket-sized cards that fans will be able to see the sexy and stylish charm of the Girl’s Day members.

The agency also revealed, “Right up until the album went into print, we debated between ‘It’s Okay to Do That,” “Female President,” and “You Start First” for the title. We finally decided on ‘Female President.’”

Do want. Also it seems that new tracks are going to be good (or maybe that is PR bullshit)


Lee Min Woo, Yuri, and Hyoyeon to Join “Dancing 9″ as Dance Masters

“Dancing 9” is the ultimate global dance survival program. Dancers from all over the world will be flown to Korean to participate. The competition will ultimately pare down the number of aspiring dancers to 18

Dance survival program? Featuring Yuri? I'M IN!

B.A.P 3rd Mini Album COFFEE SHOP Teaser

로이킴(Roy Kim) - Love Love Love (Teaser) This guy has an amazing voice

ODDEYE - Catch me if you can (Making of)

AFTER SCHOOL '첫사랑(First Love)' M/V Making (Featuring more Lizzy than the actual MV)

 

Pendulum

Member
Still waiting on subs of the full episode, but here's the Random Dance segment from this week's Weekly Idol with Rainbow, 4 Minute, and SECRET.

Edit: Ah, found the full (non-subbed) episode on the same user account too.
 

No No Eul

Member
I noticed a few hours ago that the Fugitive song was removed/taken down. The other songs in that artist's profile are still there though. Coincidence?

Doubtful. You'd think there'd be copies of that song all over YouTube but I can't see any. A quick Google search doesn't reveal much in the way of alternative sources either.

i7nENkNVBApSe.jpg
ibeQSSh9XuYBtM.jpg


i9YCAACTxLy9C.png
inX1Bvrm2L1UA.png

From Jungah's Twitter.

ibdfF4MOTpDILQ.jpg


i7v0UVqcY0tfd.jpg

God damn it. After trying to work out WTF was going on with Hara's Instagram for the last half hour or so, I just realised that she's simply changed the name of her account from haraing to hara_xoxo. Meanwhile, some joker has inevitably signed up to Instagram using the old account name.

In other news, Chocolat's Melanie has also joined Instagram.
 
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