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Khronos announces Vulkan (previously GLNext/Next-gen OpenGL)
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Wow, nice catch. Here's the screenshot of valve's debugger:
Looks like a very similar workflow to Metal as well. Which I've enjoyed working with thus far.
I think this time it's called libgnm.
TheHellsLord
Member
ES3.1 support in the hardware will not mean all that much given that an OS update is still necessary as mobile devices don't allow you to "sideload" graphics drivers all that easily (e.g. rooting devices).
So for low- and mid-range mobile phones I don't think we'll see support there retroactively. Even on higher end devices it will likely depend on wether or not (and when) Google adds Vulkan support to Android in general. That Google will add it seems pretty much certain to me - they are the only ones not running their own API yet.
It's likely to get even more interesting with Apple's iOS. I am not aware of any statement from them stating support for it. I believe it's entirely possible that they'll stick with the combination of OpenGL and Metal for the forseeable future.
With Microsoft we can be pretty sure they won't support it on their closed platforms (Windows Phone, Xbox).
What will be interesting to see is what platforms they can show off in their presentation. I guess support on Steam OS is certain to be shown off. Given support by Qualcomm I'd also guess that we'll see a development device with Android. Regular Windows is the big question - seeing Vulkan running on the Win 10 Technical Preview would be huge. My guess would be to rather see Win7 or Win8 for now.
So for low- and mid-range mobile phones I don't think we'll see support there retroactively. Even on higher end devices it will likely depend on wether or not (and when) Google adds Vulkan support to Android in general. That Google will add it seems pretty much certain to me - they are the only ones not running their own API yet.
It's likely to get even more interesting with Apple's iOS. I am not aware of any statement from them stating support for it. I believe it's entirely possible that they'll stick with the combination of OpenGL and Metal for the forseeable future.
With Microsoft we can be pretty sure they won't support it on their closed platforms (Windows Phone, Xbox).
What will be interesting to see is what platforms they can show off in their presentation. I guess support on Steam OS is certain to be shown off. Given support by Qualcomm I'd also guess that we'll see a development device with Android. Regular Windows is the big question - seeing Vulkan running on the Win 10 Technical Preview would be huge. My guess would be to rather see Win7 or Win8 for now.
It's possible that Vulkan (and DX12 for that matter) could influence changes or improvements to PS4's libs. However, as always with a console, its its own variant for its own hardware specifically.
I think it's always kind of funny how people end up debating about consoles - particularly given that PS4's gnm/gcm has been credited with starting this whole trend for high level APIs with lower level control.
Imgtec already have a platform, driver and demo ready (credit to Turin Turambar for originally posting the link):
http://blog.imgtec.com/powervr/trying-out-the-new-vulkan-graphics-api-on-powervr-gpus
Also, I don't think regular Windows is any issue. I expect NV, AMD and Intel to provide Vulkan drivers for all major versions of Windows (from 7 upwards).
You're right.
BrokenIcarus
Member
What? Unlike Mantle this is completely cross-vendor and cross-platform so no.
Vulkan works on practically everything. Huge difference
What?
Vulkan is an actual Khronos standard with wide industry support. It couldn't be more different from Mantle (in any aspect but the technical).
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
What do you mean? Mantle was (rest in pepperonis) great. It was just limited to AMD GPUs only.
Now that everyone is getting something like it, it's all for the better. And this time Nvidia and their fans won't cast shade.
Boombox On
Member
sure but it's not OpenGL 5. Well see how widely this will be adopted. Right now it's all talk, just like with mantle, "ground breaking" and all that handsome text. The fact they are separating Vulkan from the rest of openGL sounds ominous to me.
We know that NV, AMD, Qualcomm and Imgtec are already working on drivers, and that both Unity and Epic are heavily involved. I'm really not sure where you're going with this.
Actually, that fact is why it's so exciting. OpenGL has 20 years of legacy baggage to carry around, as well as industry users who are notoriously resistant to change.
It sort of is OpenGL 5. It's just entirely redesigned and a bit pointless to keep the name OpenGL.
TheHellsLord
Member
I'm pretty sure MacOS will support it - iOS is the question - at least to me. MacOS will have to support it as lots of the design software companys (which is quite an important software branch on MacOS) are going to demand it.
But I guess we'll know more after the presentation.
PS4's uses their own custom API GNM which already shares similar principles as Mantle and is somewhat just as good according to Johan Andersson.
That's not to say there can't be improvements though. Apparently you can bypass it.
Ah right, sorry to everyone quoting me, guess I was confused with PS3.
Interesting to see PS4 API has similar principles.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Next step, get Collada to be useful as a non-proprietary model format please Khronos
It's certainly possible, though I don't think it fits well with Nintendo's MO.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
As much I think SPIR-V is paramount and the way forward, I think they'll face the exact same issue the original SPIR had in OCL: SPIR being based on llvm IR is both a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because it is the arguably smartest IR out there (from the publicly available knowhow). It's a curse because there's no such thing as a standard llvm IR - it changes a few times per llvm revision, so from llvm's side it's a moving target. I think it'd be very nice if llvm thinktank sat dawn and devised a standard SSA, with versioning, BC and all. Otherwise we'll get yet another case of modern llvm not talking SPIR.
The way they were phrasing it was they were not stopping with OpenGL initiative. It sounded to me like in the future there will be Vulkan and OpenGL 5 going alongside.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
wait, so this is a brand new API written from scratch?
edit: from ArsTechnica
Holy shit, this is HUGE!
Vulcanos were named after the Roman god Vulcan, god of fire and metalworking. As was Vulcan, the planet once postulated to exist between Mercury and the Sun (the other planets are named after Roman gods, too).
The planet in Star Trek would have been named after the postulated planet. The link between the two names is pretty direct.
In case anyone else is like me and wasn't sure about these terms:
- SPIR-V = Standards Portable Intermediate Representation (Vulkan?) = intermediate representation discussed earlier
- SPIR = Standards Portable Intermediate Representation = same thing but older version
- LLVM = apparently not an acronym, but the name of a compiler / toolchain project
- LLVM IR = Intermediate Representation used by the LLVM project
- SSA = Static Single Assignment (form?) = possibly a simple and clear form that an Intermediate Representation can take? I'm not certain on this one.
- BC = Backwards Compatibility, so syntax can be updated like shader language syntax, and different versions of the syntax could be supported
Well, we have seen "real" "AAA" Windows games using OpenGL (Rage, Wolf: TNO, etc), so I don't see why not.
TheHellsLord
Member
LLVM = Low Level Virtual Machine
I don't think the full name is used any more however.
Both of those games are running on the id Tech 5 engine which is the exception rather than the rule.
However, Valve has presumably been working on supporting OpenGL with Source 2, and there seems to be some experimental OpenGL support in Unreal Engine 4.
Yes, that was apparently the old name. The website now says:
Which sounds a little snobbish but eh.
). You throw shade, you don't cast it.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
All of this sounds very exciting. These kinds of things need to take off and have wide industry support.
Fox_Mulder
Rockefellers. Skull and Bones. Microsoft. Al Qaeda. A Cabal of Bankers. The melting point of steel. What do these things have in common? Wake up sheeple, the landfill wasn't even REAL!
The empire of microsoft ends here
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
I only throw it when I'm out of mana.
A penny for every time I read/heard this...
SubiyaCryolite
Banned
I cant wait to see the spec sheet and try this out.
I'm pretty sure that the list of supporters of OGL looks the same.
Nahh not really.
DirectX 12 will still be widely used.
Especially when its being used on both PC and Xbox One. It makes the dev's job a lot easier.
TheHellsLord
Member
More interestingly: the list of supporters of DX12 looks quite similar too (there are of course obvious differences).
Only if DX12 doesn't offer an equivalent feature set. If it does, nothing will change.
PowerVR Demo of Vulkan.
http://blog.imgtec.com/powervr/trying-out-the-new-vulkan-graphics-api-on-powervr-gpus
Cpu Usage comparison:
(left is Vulkan, right OpenGL ES 3.0)
Much more at the link
http://blog.imgtec.com/powervr/trying-out-the-new-vulkan-graphics-api-on-powervr-gpus
Cpu Usage comparison:
(left is Vulkan, right OpenGL ES 3.0)
Much more at the link
alexandros
Banned
It is my hope that a few years from now we will all look back upon this as the day PC gaming finally broke free of Microsoft's grip. Yes, there is a lot of work to be done, but this time I believe that all the necessary pieces are in place to bring about an actual revolution in the industry.
And of course it is not only API. How is it supported in IDEs? What debugging tools are available, how good are they? How portable is the code? How fast is it available? How is it supported by the "vendor"?
I'm not 100% convinced of that. If the clean slate, standardized IR and improved conformance testing of Vulkan combined manage to solve most of OpenGL's glaring problems then I don't see why it wouldn't become more widely used on (Windows) PC as well.