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[Various Artists]

I believe since camera uses IR that playing in the dark is fine.

 

[jorma]

You saw two? Well I only saw one.

You did not miss much.

 

[ScrabbleBanshee]

has anyone mentioned playing games in the dark? not just for horror games but in the same sense that you would draw your curtains and switch off your lights for a movie...

I think it mostly uses IR so it doesn't matter, it's projecting the light it needs onto you already. I'm not really sure what aspects of how it works requires the RGB camera though, obviously that part will be busted in the dark.

At first I thought the same thing about Move, and then I realized they made sure to make those wand cajones glow super bright.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Doesn't seem like there is a lot to discuss. Greenberg isn't going to lie about something as critical as this.

 

[dark10x]

I think it mostly uses IR so it doesn't matter, it's projecting the light it needs onto you already. I'm not really sure what aspects of how it works requires the RGB camera though, obviously that part will be busted in the dark.

At first I thought the same thing about Move, and then I realized they made sure to make those wand cajones glow super bright.

The glowing wands might actually be distracting in the dark, though. I already can't stand the super bright blue LED on the Wii-mote. Move will be worse, I'm sure.

 

[mclem]

One thing that makes me very curious, on a similar note, is whether it'll work - even standing - in my setup.

I've got a large, bulky table between my sofa and my telly. It's handy; it lets me put my feet up. It's also a pain in the arse to move it so there's an open gap. It's not a large living room, I'd have to take it right through to a different room.

So the question is this: Kinect isn't likely to be able to see my feet unless I go to this extra effort. If I were to buy into this, do I have to remodel my living room around it?

 

[pr0cs]

So the question is this: Kinect isn't likely to be able to see my feet unless I go to this extra effort. If I were to buy into this, do I have to remodel my living room around it?

How would it see your feet if you had a coffee table in the way? I mean it's IR not XRAY vision.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

I don't get why sitting down is supposedly so much of an issue - the Kinectimals girl was lying down and the Forza dude was kneeling and looked at the car while doing so. Maybe those two presentations were faked though.

They were.

 

[mclem]

(Regarding the video chat demo)

I can't believe how many gullible people thought that was not pre-recorded just like Every other "demo" they showed.

There is *no way* that was pre-recorded.

If it was pre-recorded, it'd have been better acted.

 

[mclem]

How would it see your feet if you had a coffee table in the way? I mean it's IR not XRAY vision.

It was a bit of a rhetorical question, really, just to point out another issue with it. Of course, there's a possibility it can extrapolate logical positions even if it can't see your feet, which would be a workaround.

 

[onken]

Doesn't seem like there is a lot to discuss. Greenberg isn't going to lie about something as critical as this.

Yeah... just going to quote this again.

 

[MjFrancis]

Disappointing, to say the least. There's time for Microsoft to fix this before a collective sigh is released from the first wave of Kinect buyers. It might not have been a good idea to jazz up their already underwhelming presentation at E3 if it turns out that they can't deliver.

 

[chogidogs]

not a fan of kotaku but they posted this. might be relevant, take it as you will:
http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

I know its from Kotaku, but Totilo seems to have been asking around about this.

http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

Near the beginning of my trip out here in Los Angeles for E3, I heard the oddest of rumors: Microsoft's controller-free sensor array, Kinect, would only work if you were standing up. No way, right?

For the last several days I've been peppering the conversations I've had with game creators at this massive video game showcase with the "sitting question." Can Kinect really not work when you're sitting? Is that the reason why every Kinect developer makes me stand to play their game? Is the future of voice-controlled, gesture-triggered television viewing a future of watching TV while standing up?


What Microsoft says
Officially, Microsoft says that the sitting question is unfounded. In a mock Q&A that had appeared on the company's press site but has since been removed, they field this question themselves:

Q: Are there any games or experiences I can do while sitting on the couch?
A: Absolutely. The games and experiences are designed to be as fun to watch as they are to play-they're designed to get you off the couch. And when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch.

Couch potatoes have nothing to worry about, then, right? They shouldn't fear a future that would have them enjoying ESPN and Froza Motorsport on their own two feet?

No. There is some cause for concern.

What Game Creators Say
One developer with whom I spoke and who is familiar with how Microsoft is briefing studios making games for Kinect said the company has specifically advised developers to not make games that would involve the player's sitting down.

None of the games shown for Kinect at a showcase early in the week were set up for sitting. Kinectimals, a cute take on Nintendogs-style games, but with tiger cubs, was presented as a player-stand-here demo. That's logical, because the game involves walking up to the animal and then jumping or running or doing some other action you want the animal to replicate. The game's lead creator, Frontier Design's David Braben shrugged when I asked him if the game could be played sitting down. He guessed some of it might work, but it didn't sound like he'd tried, possibly because it was irrelevant to his game design.

You might have expected a seated Kinect experience from the Forza Motorsport team. Those folks are making Kinect driving games and tech demos. They've got a fun highway driving challenge that involves standing in front of the Kinect and steering by holding your hands in front of your body as if you were turning a real steering wheel. The perspective for this game experiment is inside the car, through the eyes of a driver. Rolling your shoulders in front of Kinect turns the game's camera view slightly, letting you look around inside the car. Your lower body is not used — no foot-forward-to-accelerate as was seen in a similar demonstration last year with racing game Burnout. Nevertheless, you have to play this one standing up if you are playing it at E3.

I asked one of the two members of Forza development studio Turn 10 if I could play their demo sitting down. They said I could not, that it was "optimized for standing."

The thought that prompted me to start asking the "sitting question" to so many Kinect-connected game developers and executives at E3 was that the Kinect's sensor can't clearly read a human skeleton if a person is seated. Some developers with whom I was theorizing about this guessed that the Kinect would become confused by the bent knees of a seated gamer — that it would need a player to always return to a resting position that has all their joints on one flat plane, which is the case when you are standing, not when you are sitting. No Kinect developer could or would get that specific with me, so I'm left to guess.


The second Forza demonstration involves walking up to a virtual car and peering at it from various angles. You control this by standing in front of the Kinect and then turning your body, kneeling or side-stepping to push the camera view around the car or to lower it for close inspection. You can open the driver's door of a virtual Ferrari and sit in the driver's seat. But when you sit in the driver's seat even in this Forza demo, you are standing in real life. That's the kind of thing that makes you wonder.

Throughout this week I have watched or tried fitness games, dancing gaming and several games reminscent of Wii Sports. All are played standing up, and all have good game design reasons to. So maybe there is no tech limitation to Kinect regarding your couch?

I'd be worried less about this sitting thing and I would stop asking the "sitting question" if I had not been made to watch a movie via Kinect while standing up.

On Monday evening I participated in a brief demonstration of how Kinect could be used to control the Xbox 360 dashboard. This demonstration had me standing in front of the Kinect and using both hand-waves and voice commands to flip through menus on a TV and load applications such as movie-watching and video chat. There were chairs at this demo, but they were off to the side. I had to stand up.

The Kinect is superb at recognizing a standing player. It reads the presence of your body, detects 19 or so key joints in your frame and tracks your movement with magical immedicay. I had no more trouble swiping through the Kinect menus than I did steering the car in the Forza demo. Voice commands worked nicely as well, though I lamented that the Kinect couldn't distinguish my commands from anyone else's in the room. What I didn't understand is why I had to stand through all of this.

I liked telling the Xbox 360 to pause a movie. I liked extending my hand and dragging the movie's progress bar left or right, as if I was using the Star Wars Force to fast forward and rewind. But, I asked the Microsoft people running the demo, could I drag a chair over and try this sitting down?

No.

"Sitting is something we're still calibrating for," one of them told me.

Some time during the demo they showed me a video that simulated Kinect-powered video chat. That was going to be calibrated for sitting, right? And movie watching isn't really going to require me to stand, correct?

The Microsoft people pointed out that for entertainment applications like these I would be using a lot of voice commands and those would work just fine from a couch. That backs up that simulated Q&A bit from Microsoft about how, "when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch." They don't say anything about games. And they don't say anything about relying on voice-command rather than body motion detection.

One of the Microsoft people with whom I was discussing the "sitting question" said the chair stuff is just more complicated. You could be sitting far away, at an angle. True, though I had asked to move a chair in front of the TV before being denied.

A demo reel Microsoft released of families playing Kinect does does show them using hand gestures to manipulate a movie while sitting, but it is not clear if they are really using the tech. At least it is a sign that Microsoft wants Kinect to work like this.


Standing And Delivering
To those doubting Kinect, I can say that, after a week of playing more of its games, it works great. But after a week of noticing a lack of seated play — after a week of not getting a single developer or Microsoft person to clearly state that Kinect can track your body while you sit — I'm left to wonder if this impressive tech has a problem. Controller-free gaming is an axciting future. Couch-free gaming (and maybe movie-watching and video-chatting)? Say it ain't so.

 

[Stat Flow]

The only thing about Natal/Kinect I was interested in this entire time was being a lazy fuck and telling my xbox what to do and waving my hand to navigate, which is just cool. The fact that it's $149 (?) and a possibility of stand-only...not worth it

 

[sangreal]

That backs up that simulated Q&A bit from Microsoft about how, "when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch." They don't say anything about games.

First thing that stood out to me. That really eliminates any core gaming possibilities if it doesn't work sitting down. I understand it doesn't matter for any of their minigame shovelware they demonstrated. Did they think noone was going to notice?

 

[darkwing]

One thing that makes me very curious, on a similar note, is whether it'll work - even standing - in my setup.

I've got a large, bulky table between my sofa and my telly. It's handy; it lets me put my feet up. It's also a pain in the arse to move it so there's an open gap. It's not a large living room, I'd have to take it right through to a different room.

So the question is this: Kinect isn't likely to be able to see my feet unless I go to this extra effort. If I were to buy into this, do I have to remodel my living room around it?

its not an x-ray machine

 

[gofreak]

Hmmm.

The Q+A bit suggests that for UI stuff it might be something they're working on. But this...

The Microsoft people pointed out that for entertainment applications like these I would be using a lot of voice commands and those would work just fine from a couch. That backs up that simulated Q&A bit from Microsoft about how, "when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch." They don't say anything about games. And they don't say anything about relying on voice-command rather than body motion detection.

...if they mean just voice commands from the couch, then that's not quite the thought they're planting in people's head with that answer. It all doesn't sound very encouraging, but we'll see I guess what they can do about this.

 

[Replicant]

This whole thing sounds like major clusterfuck. Did they really think they can get away in marketing this to the public without telling this little bit of information?

 

[onken]

its not an x-ray machine

Surely it could take the rest of the joints and extrapolate below knee height.

 

[Painraze]

what a fucking disaster :lol

 

[gofreak]

This whole thing sounds like major clusterfuck. Did they really think they can get away in marketing this to the public without telling this little bit of information?

Yes. Cos if it's superficially impressive, they can covert sales and let people worry about all the 'gotchas' at home.

This will be superficially impressive, on TV, in game stores etc.

 

[PhatSaqs]

First thing that stood out to me. That really eliminates any core gaming possibilities if it doesn't work sitting down. I understand it doesn't matter for any of their minigame shovelware they demonstrated. Did they think noone was going to notice?

Yeah pretty much. Kinect seems to be designed strictly for dance, sports and fitness games. Guess that explains why thats all we see in the launch lineup.

 

[jmdajr]

doesn't work from the coach?

whhhhhhaaaa

 

[Mael]

First thing that stood out to me. That really eliminates any core gaming possibilities if it doesn't work sitting down. I understand it doesn't matter for any of their minigame shovelware they demonstrated. Did they think noone was going to notice?

They thought no one would notice that at least some of their conf was faked :-/

 

[Tim the Wiz]

http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

Okay, voice control for movie watching on the couch, but standing pretty much enforced for Kinect gaming? Yeah, I'll pass.

 

[Painraze]

Yes. Cos if it's superficially impressive, they can covert sales and let people worry about all the 'gotchas' at home.

This will be superficially impressive, on TV, in game stores etc.

That only goes so far. If Kinect is janky at home word of mouth will kill it regardless of how many BK burgers they advertise this thing on.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The people that want to get Kinect so the whole family can jump around playing casual animal games is probably not going to care.

On the other hand, as a core gamer, my interest just dropped to near zero. Move seems like a much better tech for 'serious' gaming.

 

[chubigans]

But, I asked the Microsoft people running the demo, could I drag a chair over and try this sitting down?

No.

"Sitting is something we're still calibrating for," one of them told me.

Holy freaking crap MS, just delay this damn thing. This seems insane to me.

 

[McHuj]

I wonder how well voice commands work if your watching a loud movie or listening to loud music. I suspect it won't be very effective.

The more and more stuff that comes out about Kinect the more it disappointing it is. I really hope the gaming media doesn't let them off the hook.

 

[trudderham]

So will people in wheelchairs be able to use Kinect?

 

[Zeliard]

I think it's pretty clear at this point that you can't really use Kinect sitting down to play games. Microsoft is utilizing a lot of doublespeak in order to do anything but come right out and say "you have to stand up."

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Yea. Microsoft has hurt their chances with Kinect more then they helped this conference. As said did they really think journalists weren't going to start asking this question?

I do agree that this just helps Move more. Move seemed to actually be working live and it is obviously decently cheap thanks to the ability to use a duelshock with the wand part.

Microsoft just needs to give it up on this and move on.

 

[MikeE21286]

Wow that Kotaku story was pretty damning.

 

[dak1dsk1]

This actually looked better in 2009.

 

[jorma]

"our game is not balanced for sitting"

 

[Littleberu]

So will people in wheelchairs be able to use Kinect?

No.

 

[gerg]

That only goes so far. If Kinect is janky at home word of mouth will kill it regardless of how many BK burgers they advertise this thing on.

Indeed. Apart from the advertising, what carries Nintendo's games for so long is very good word-of-mouth.

 

[KevinCow]

This whole thing sounds like major clusterfuck. Did they really think they can get away in marketing this to the public without telling this little bit of information?

This whole thing sounds to me like they realize they've got a crappy product, but they're hoping they can still sell it by misrepresenting it, lying about it, and most importantly, spending lots of money on it.

 

[Rated-Rsuperstar]

Microsoft has just announced a solution. You must scan your couch before you sit down.

 

[skulpt]

No one is BSing here. I think the games they've shown so far involve foot input. So of course you can't be sitting. But I'd imagine it would be easy for them to allow sitting for navigation.

Here's a test I want to see though. Get some of your celebrities, and let them play for 1 hour doing this stuff. Stand for everything. Film their facial expressions not after trying it for 2-3 minutes. Film them after an hour or even half an hour and see if they are still having fun. Will they be even close to comfortable after using this for that long?

I think Kinect will be good for party games. Things where you have rounds of say using it a few minutes max at a time. But for wanting to play say an hour? I bet I'll even find Move tiring after that much time. And that doesn't even require you to use exaggerated movements or leg tracking.

Hey, imagine that Yoga game. They scan you, and you're 6 feet tall. Scan you while sitting, and they'll assume you must be 4 feet tall. LOL. It makes sense though. It's not tracking your whole body in 3d. It's tracking what's visible to the IR of the camera and using that data to get 3D. When you sit, the tops of your legs are missing or greatly shortened according to the camera point of view.

 

[MirageDwarf]

Best E3 ever.

 

[Crisco]

While I understand why this would be fucked, I find it pretty hilarious that the idea of having to *gasp* STAND UP to use something is wrecking people's opinion of it. We are one lazy fucking society.

 

[Hex]

The problem with sitting and couches are that you run into things like what if you are wearing something the same color as your couch, what if you have a couch very close to flesh tone, and if you are sitting close to another person can it tell one person's arm from the person next to them.

 

[Corto]

It will be interesting to watch if this will be of importance on the final success of the product. Never understimate the power of marketing and the gullibility of the consumer.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

We need more guys at E3 asking this question. We aren't going to see this product again for awhile. Lets get a definite answer out of them; no double speak bullshit.

While I understand why this would be fucked, I find it pretty hilarious that the idea of having to *gasp* STAND UP to use something is wrecking people's opinion of it. We are one lazy fucking society.

I stand up and drive in my car all the time.

 

[TheOddOne]

Indeed. Apart from the advertising, what carries Nintendo's games for so long is very good word-of-mouth.

Yes, but a dancing game or fitness game will need people to stand up. So, maby bad word of mouth for the interface features.

 

[Hex]

While I understand why this would be fucked, I find it pretty hilarious that the idea of having to *gasp* STAND UP to use something is wrecking people's opinion of it. We are one lazy fucking society.

Yes, because standing up in your living room while driving a Forza car around in circles for an hour is thrilling.
It has nothing to do with lazy.
Microsoft can defend themselves, it is ok really.

 

[Vinci]

Again: I really have to imagine this is just a mistake, some disconnect in the wiring, 'cause... if not... Microsoft has no clue what the hell they're doing. Just amazing.

 

[sphinx]

I decided to look for that quote where Iwata stated why they turned down natal..

"Iwata-san only ever invests in something he can guarantee will work for a Nintendo audience," the exec told us.

"3DV showed off a camera that detected motion in 3D, and had voice recognition - but Iwata-San was unconvinced he could sell it at a Nintendo price point. He also had some worries around latency during gameplay."

woah... we will just see how much weight these words have once Kinect is released