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Kitase & Toriyama are destroying Final Fantasy

Man... if fans like you get so hyped about modern FF and its characters, maybe they should just continue doing what they're doing and I'm better off writing off Final Fantasy as good memories from my childhood instead of hemming and hawing and trying to convince Square-Enix to return to the quality of yesteryear.

Or, they could try to appeal to the old school too (although I think I would be counted among the old school too if playing FFVII in 98 counts). I'm quite easy to please so the future direction of the FF series is bright to me no matter what Kitase, Toriyama, Nojima, Ito, whoever does to the next entries or how they do it
unless they try to build off FFXII or stop localizing them then...ugh...

I do understand why many fans are worried about the future of the series but I think Square will learn from their issues and make the series pop again.

Welcome to 2007.

I didn't own a PSP and get Crisis Core til 2010.
 
Sadly I agree.

A game with the same philosophy and design as IX would be my first JRPG in almost a decade.

The philosophy and design of IX was "give the fans what they want". People had complained about things like VII and VIII having too much technology, not enough chobobos, nothing like the Opera scene from VI, needs more fantasy, needs more classic character classes, etc. IX's entire design philosophy was "will this be fanservice? Then throw it in!"

Personally I found IX rather generic, though it definitely had some great moments and music. and that stupid elemental final boss that hadn't been mentioned the entire story and literally had no personality.
 
Just so you know, I suck at sarcasm. :D

So...yeah, serious. Didn't realize he was so hated before until recently. :(
I'm going to put my FF4 playthrough on hiatus now. ;____;

I can't...

t9MMg.gif
 
Is this thread's title really appropriate. Let's look at the facts:

Toriyama
1. Toriyama's FF sells a ton across the world, receives generally favorably reviews, but is diversive among fans.

2. Based on the success of FF13, he is given reins to make FF13-2 while using fan feedback as a basis for the game. Game releases and again receives generally favorable reviews. The sales however are under 900k which is disappointing but still ends up being the highest PS3 game sold that year.

BIG 3. As Nintendo recently proved, DLC is worth a TON of money and adds significant value to established games. We know FF13-2 had a slew of DLC that was selling very well. Unless we sell sales data indicating otehrwise, I wager SE made a ton of money on those DLCs and costumes.

Big FOUR: Despite the horrific launch of FF14, SE actually made a profit that quarter thanks to FF13-2 sales, DLC, and Deus Ex

Therefore: You cannot say accurately say Toriyama is responsible for FF's decline since his games are making money. They are not critical success but they do well for themselves. I am not advocating his style and strategies, merely pointing out from a logical standpoint his 'effect' on the series.

Kitase
The man has been a producer of many hits over the last few years.

FF15, if the game itself is decent, will sell just fine.
 
Who wrote this Genesis stuff in Crisis Core?

I like to think that Nomura was still in his honeymoon phase with Gackt at the time. If it had been post-break up then Genesis would have been a good villain. Freaking YX who does NOTHING in KH is a better villain.

Genesis is just so cool. I have a fictional man crush on him.

I want a Genesis jacket. I would so go out in it too.



I did. Then again, I'm not easily confused with video game plots for some reason. Even killer7 made about 85% worth of sense to me post credits after a few hours of contemplation.

How so? Genesis is so freaking dope. As a villain not only he succeeds at leaving an impression but he looks cool and is a true threat to Zack, no the world. His extreme obsession over Loveless only adds to his swag and make you think, "wow, this guy is swaggin'...but he is batshit crazy too!". Doesn't hurt that he looks like Gackt too, one of the coolest looking Japanese singing peeps ever. Genesis is just the total package and almost surpasses Sephiroth and Golbez as one of my favorite FF villains in the series.

This is why Kitase and Toriyama needs to make a FFVII-2 after LR and bring Genesis back. Show Cloud and the gang the gift of the goddess, as nothing shall forstall Genesis' return. Man I'm getting hyped thinking about it.

We can't be friends anymore Esura. You're breaking my heart.

Genesis can't be cool because he isn't a character. He's a Sephiroth recolor with a Kuja schtick rammed so far up his butt that he does nothing.
 
Dreams of the Fayth :(

If you wanted to directly compare two similarly stupid things in both games, I would say characters not dying when they should.

In FFX's first CGI scene, Tidus falls from the top of the blitzball stadium, but walks it off like it's no big deal. Snow does the same on the Hanging Edge above Bresha.

Hell, I think FFX does it at least one other time, with the entire party falling into Lake Macalania from an absurd height(I think Yuna is the only one who shows any signs of not being entirely alright, and even then it's only for, like, 30 seconds).
 
I'm going to put my FF4 playthrough on hiatus now. ;____;

I can't...

t9MMg.gif

Why is that stopping you from playing FF4?

I like to think that Nomura was still in his honeymoon phase with Gackt at the time. If it had been post-break up then Genesis would have been a good villain. Freaking YX who does NOTHING in KH is a better villain.





We can't be friends anymore Esura. You're breaking my heart.

Genesis can't be cool because he isn't a character. He's a Sephiroth recolor with a Kuja schtick rammed so far up his butt that he does nothing.

I don't think Genesis is exactly like Sephiroth as the way they approach their situations upon knowing their origins are almost completely different.

You still my bro. :(

Can't we all just talk about this Genesis instead? The superior one?
Fond memories of Sega Genesis. One of the first video games I ever played was Sonic 2...but I digress.

But this brings up a good point. Anything with Genesis as it's name is bound to be awesome. :D
 
Really great work OP, your post is very informative and rather depressing :/ Looks like Ito got bullied into submission. Any idea what he is working on now?


Also is Dissidia 2 any good? I thought it was a fighting series like tekken or something. Damn I hope SQ give me another chance.
 
Can't we all just talk about this Genesis instead? The superior one?

This one time Pigspeakers bought a Genesis at a flea market and it was full of Chicken Feathers. SYMBOLIC FORESHADOWING.

If you wanted to directly compare two similarly stupid things in both games, I would say characters not dying when they should.

In FFX's first CGI scene, Tidus falls from the top of the blitzball stadium, but walks it off like it's no big deal. Snow does the same on the Hanging Edge above Bresha.

Hell, I think FFX does it at least one other time, with the entire party falling into Lake Macalania from an absurd height(I think Yuna is the only one who shows any signs of not being entirely alright, and even then it's only for, like, 30 seconds).

Yeah but falling and not dying is pretty standard fare in FF. Like, Cyan and Sabin jumped down that waterfall that took them how long to reach the bottom and didn't die? There's an entire Job Class devoted to it.

No Genesis is just Gackt put into a game.

Well, yeah, but he was Gackt disguised as Red Sephiroth. Caius Ballad who was just Kain III was more original than Genesis.

Really great work OP, your post is very informative and rather depressing :/ Looks like Ito got bullied into submission. Any idea what he is working on now?


Also is Dissidia 2 any good? I thought it was a fighting series like tekken or something. Damn I hope SQ give me another chance.

I enjoyed Dissidia 2 a great deal. Like most recent FFs, the mythology or backstory or whatever outclasses the story in the foreground, but being Gilgamesh fighting Tifa's physics makes up for it. Plus it gave us Cloud of Darkness x Laguna as the greatest crack pairing in all of FF. And Firion saving his flower for Lightning. And Red Warrior of Light mode. And Dancer Bartz. It's worth it for the fan service.

I don't think Genesis is exactly like Sephiroth as the way they approach their situations upon knowing their origins are almost completely different.

You still my bro. :(

I whole heartedly disagree that there is any difference between Genesis and Sephiroth beyond Genesis' poetry vs. Sephiroth's biblical allusions.

But we can still be bros. C'mere you.
 
CorvoSol said:
Yeah but falling and not dying is pretty standard fare in FF. Like, Cyan and Sabin jumped down that waterfall that took them how long to reach the bottom and didn't die? There's an entire Job Class devoted to it.
But that example is cartoony, both in how the situation is treated and in the game's visual style.

X and XIII trend towards pseudo-realism, and in both situations falling to death is treated seriously(even moreso in XIII's case where a bunch of other people fall and die, emphasizing how stupid it is that Snow and his dumb friend both make it only due to blatant plot armor).
 
But that example is cartoony, both in how the situation is treated and in the game's visual style.

X and XIII trend towards pseudo-realism, and in both situations falling to death is treated seriously(even moreso in XIII's case where a bunch of other people fall and die, emphasizing how stupid it is that Snow and his dumb friend both make it only due to blatant plot armor).

Well we all wanted him to die and we wanted his friend to die even more, it's true.

Which makes me retract my earlier statement. Genesis might be the single WORST character in the series, but Team NORA is the shining paragon of all that is wrong with this series in terms of character design, actual characters, and everything.

When they showed up in Eden it was the point where I knew that any defense of the game's cast was not going to fly.
 
Well we all wanted him to die and we wanted his friend to die even more, it's true.

Which makes me retract my earlier statement. Genesis might be the single WORST character in the series, but Team NORA is the shining paragon of all that is wrong with this series in terms of character design, actual characters, and everything.

When they showed up in Eden it was the point where I knew that any defense of the game's cast was not going to fly.

"Hey Snow, just showing up to emphasize how contrived this writing all is and to make your character arc even more meaningless."

Though, if anything, they were just foreshadowing for the cop-outs to come.
 
I think the other point worth mentioning is that FFX is anchored by the romance between Tidus and Yuna. While it may have had its share of awkward or silly moments, in the end I cared about their relationship, and I wanted to see the characters succeed. And (if we limit the discussion just to FFX)
Tidus can't be a real boy, ending things on a bittersweet, but effective note.

There's no relationship of similar strength in FFXIII, and I'm not just saying that because there's no romance between active characters. They barely even seem like friends. Everyone unites because they absolutely must, but all the friendship speeches and urges to never give up don't make up for the lack of some basic moments of camaraderie. Those things only appear in some contextual moments on Pulse, which were kind of nice when they happened. Even the relationship between Vanille and Fang, which is apparently
the center of how the entire ending worked
, doesn't work because we don't see them interact that often in a friendly way. Only Sazh sometimes manages to get past that because he sometimes tries to lighten the mood.

It helps that in FFX, the characters can drive the plot to serve their own motivations, while in FFXIII, almost all the actions besides Hope's revenge mission are dictated by circumstances.
 
XIII-2's story is a train-wreck from top to bottom, but it is still a shame to see that XIII is basically the embodiment of wasted potential. Like, I liked the overall premise, I at least liked half the cast (Lightning, Sazh, Fang), and I at least liked the overall setting. Too bad it was just fumbled in every sense of the word.
 
I'm going to throw this out there regarding the final battle of XIII,
but was anyone else disappointed that we didn't get to kick Orphan's ass using Fangnarok with awesome special final-boss only powers?

I...just couldn't comprehend why that perfectly good opportunity was passed up. (I assume the response is going to be Toriyama/Kitase...)
 
I'm going to throw this out there regarding the final battle of XIII,
but was anyone else disappointed that we didn't get to kick Orphan's ass using Fangnarok with awesome special final-boss only powers?

I...just couldn't comprehend why that perfectly good opportunity was passed up. (I assume the response is going to be Toriyama/Kitase...)

Because a final boss is supposed to be a test off all your skills(in theory), and changing up everything about the game for the very last battle would both fail to do that and probably be really annoying (like how every 3D Sonic, save Colors, forces a wonky Super Sonic on you at the end).
 
Because a final boss is supposed to be a test off all your skills(in theory), and changing up everything about the game for the very last battle would both fail to do that and probably be really annoying (like how every 3D Sonic, save Colors, forces a wonky Super Sonic on you at the end).

Or they could just do what they did in FFX and make the final boss battle a total cakewalk for the sake of story and spectacle.
 
Are there a lot of mandatory realtime strategy bits in Type-0? I got as far as the first one and never bothered to get past it. Guess I have been holding out for a US version, but playing FF imports isn't anything new to me. It's just been ages since one hasn't come over.
 
Are there a lot of mandatory realtime strategy bits in Type-0? I got as far as the first one and never bothered to get past it. Guess I have been holding out for a US version, but playing FF imports isn't anything new to me. It's just been ages since one hasn't come over.

There's a couple. Most are optional though.
 
Did anyone even like Crazy Chocobo? >_>

Yes and no. It was undeniably terrible, but somehow that made it good. And the thread, as stated, was amazing.

Type 0 has the hardest final boss. True story.

HAHAHAHA.
the final boss of Type-0 is the Suzaku portal. Even at level 99 I have a hard time killing those stupid Lulusath Knights before they murder those even more stupid students. That or Gilgamesh. Those missiles are a pain.
 
He also believes that it becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when the player is given a huge amount of freedom to explore.

Toriyama is correct here.

...or, at least, it becomes difficult to tell a compelling story through a traditional narrative when the player is given a lot of freedom. That doesn't mean using a more traditional form of narrative is a bad or "wrong" way to tell a story in a game. It's just one of many choices.
 
Problem is, the characters are uninteresting and the story isn't all that great. If they really want to continue in that direction, the stories have to be some of the best to really keep the series relevant. If not, then it's just more anime fare.

Having attractive characters and crazy but cool looking cut-scenes can hold the attention of 13-15 year olds. But for older RPG players, it's silly and ridiculous. Can't take it seriously anymore.
 
Problem is, the characters are uninteresting and the story isn't all that great. If they really want to continue in that direction, the stories have to be some of the best to really keep the series relevant. If not, then it's just more anime fare.

Having attractive characters and crazy but cool looking cut-scenes can hold the attention of 13-15 year olds. But for older RPG players, it's silly and ridiculous. Can't take it seriously anymore.

You realize that FF has ALWAYS been aimed at the teenage Japanese audience first, right? We American gamers are secondary, especially the aging gamers who are "older" as you put it. Not the target audience at all.
 
Problem is, the characters are uninteresting and the story isn't all that great. If they really want to continue in that direction, the stories have to be some of the best to really keep the series relevant. If not, then it's just more anime fare.

Having attractive characters and crazy but cool looking cut-scenes can hold the attention of 13-15 year olds. But for older RPG players, it's silly and ridiculous. Can't take it seriously anymore.

There's nothing wrong with attractive characters and cutscenes. They don't have anything to do with whether or not there's substance.

If you wanted to directly compare two similarly stupid things in both games, I would say characters not dying when they should.

In FFX's first CGI scene, Tidus falls from the top of the blitzball stadium, but walks it off like it's no big deal. Snow does the same on the Hanging Edge above Bresha.

Hell, I think FFX does it at least one other time, with the entire party falling into Lake Macalania from an absurd height(I think Yuna is the only one who shows any signs of not being entirely alright, and even then it's only for, like, 30 seconds).

I suppose you already addressed this, but it really does happen in nearly every FF game. Pretty sure Snowe's fall was added in to mimic Cloud's fall. My favorite one is where Cid blows himself mid air over an ocean of lava and survives in IV. Or at least the DS ver.
 
Good God Square needs to stop numbering this series.

The fact that they are still sticking the roman numeral on there after 13 games is bad enough, but Final Fantasy XIII-2? C'mon! That's nonsense. What the hell does that even mean. I can't wait until they start numbering the sub-sub-sequels. I want to see a Final Fantasy XIII-2...2.

Really they should just reboot the entire brand.
 
Is Seifer Kain II?

Nah, either Kain Highwind is Kain II or the retconned in Kain of FFII is Kain II. Seifer is just Snow and Beats' very disappointed father.

Kind of surprised "Sephired" never took off as the fan nick.

You can't have a fan nick when the fans say their nightly prayers to the Many-Faced God in this manner, "Toriyama, Lucas, Wada, Jar-Jar, Genesis . . ."

Good God Square needs to stop numbering this series.

The fact that they are still sticking the roman numeral on there after 13 games is bad enough, but Final Fantasy XIII-2? C'mon! That's nonsense. What the hell does that even mean. I can't wait until they start numbering the sub-sub-sequels. I want to see a Final Fantasy XIII-2...2.

Really they should just reboot the entire brand.

WhiskeyGeorge is that you?

Anyway, there's no reason to reboot a series in which every actual sequel IS a reboot.
 
WhiskeyGeorge is that you?

Anyway, there's no reason to reboot a series in which every actual sequel IS a reboot.

Sorry, who is WhiskeyGeorge? If he's into Whiskey I bet we'd be friends.

I realize that they change around the characters and settings, but that's not enough to save the series at this point. Square needs to go back to the drawing board, reassess what made FF great back in the 16-bit era, and rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. Go dark for a few years. Tone down the pathos. Overhaul the art. Come back with a next gen title that restablishes the brand, and simply call the game "Final Fantasy."

C'mon. Even the most diehard apologists know, in their heart of hearts, that the number thing has become absurd. Even Police Academy stopped at seven.
 
reassess what made FF great back in the 16-bit era

Limited selection for jRPG enthusiasts and the best composer for the hardware?

Neither of which are true these days. It's not the 16 bit stories, either, by the way. They were just as silly as the current ones, if not moreso. The only real difference is the voice acting.

Honestly, the real reasons for the early FF games' popularity were the uniqueness at the time and the fact Uematsu was extremely good at making catchy, memorable tunes.

There's a reason why Uematsu's newer stuff is not as popular. The irony is that the limitations of the early medium brought out his genius.
 
Limited selection for jRPG enthusiasts and the best composer for the hardware?

Neither of which are true these days. It's not the 16 bit stories, either, by the way. They were just as silly as the current ones, if not moreso. The only real difference is the voice acting.

Honestly, the real reasons for the early FF games' popularity were the uniqueness at the time and the fact Uematsu was extremely good at making catchy, memorable tunes.

There's a reason why Uematsu's newer stuff is not as popular. The irony is that the limitations of the early medium brought out his genius.


The story is FFVI is not silly at all. While not blessed with a great dialog (technical limits on the translation and the translation itself being wonky) the plot and themes raised by it are classic and very sound. It's simply told, but more effective for it.

The sharing of hardships, of carrying on and healing through understanding and acceptance is a universal idea. The different characters all have doubts, demons in their past, or failings they are seeking to change. That they do so and find peace in a world (and thus universe) that seems arbitrary, again reflects the "real world".

Kefka is the dark reflection of that. An uncaring, self interested person to the point of being a sociopath, attaining more power and control is his only aim. Once attains supreme power, he finds it doesn't fill the void in his existence, doesn't make him feel greater or more content. So, he makes the conclusion that if one has mastery over themselves and their environment and still feels no purpose or place, existence itself must be a con, a worthless thing, and should be wiped out.

The other characters become better people and gain peace through their weakness and failings, through loss of power/control; Kefka becomes a complete nihilist despite gaining everything he wants.

Again, it's very simple and lacking in much nuance, but as a plot it's solid.
 
The story is FFVI is not silly at all.

Yeah, it is, man, but no more than any other of the FFs.

People walk around shooting fireballs and lasers, animals literally talk, medieval castles are also super tunneling robots...but seeing Magic??? makes them roll around in the sand in shock.

Half the characters are caricatures and people just imagined up various characterizations in their minds. Celes is a teenage general who is cold as ice...who also happens to be an opera diva who actually wants love all along. Makes sense.

Note that I am not saying FF6 is bad. It's fine. But don't let nostalgia blind you to its obvious flaws.
 
The story is FFVI is not silly at all. While not blessed with a great dialog (technical limits on the translation and the translation itself being wonky) the plot and themes raised by it are classic and very sound. It's simply told, but more effective for it.

The sharing of hardships, of carrying on and healing through understanding and acceptance is a universal idea. The different characters all have doubts, demons in their past, or failings they are seeking to change. That they do so and find peace in a world (and thus universe) that seems arbitrary, again reflects the "real world".

Kefka is the dark reflection of that. An uncaring, self interested person to the point of being a sociopath, attaining more power and control is his only aim. Once attains supreme power, he finds it doesn't fill the void in his existence, doesn't make him feel greater or more content. So, he makes the conclusion that if one has mastery over themselves and their environment and still feels no purpose or place, existence itself must be a con, a worthless thing, and should be wiped out.

The other characters become better people and gain peace through their weakness and failings, through loss of power/control; Kefka becomes a complete nihilist despite gaining everything he wants.

Again, it's very simple and lacking in much nuance, but as a plot it's solid.

I think you're filling in plot depth that simply isn't there.
 
Half the characters are caricatures and people just imagined up various characterizations in their minds. Celes is a teenage general who is cold as ice...who also happens to be an opera diva who actually wants love all along. Makes sense.
She's still probably my favorite FF character and all, but this is probably true. The way she instantly goes "OMG LOVE, /suicide" over Locke would be cringe-worthy these days.

It was easier to get away with stuff in the 16bit days. There's too much attention to detail expected now, too many things that can go wrong. And with how overly critical people are when it comes to modern FF, none of the old games would stand up all that well - or even JRPGs in general.
 
FF as a series for the majority of the games isn't silly? Did I just move to Mars? Can I find water here? Is there food?

FF6 was extremely silly; not just its story but it had the little things too.

I bet the soldiers are just waiting there for shits and giggles because they think they're gonna win. "Those Team Hero characters are no match for us, even if they're using strategy and are having a character exposition moment. We can wait. Then we can shoot them silly with our Laser beams. Magic is no match for us. Besides. We have a few people on our side who can use magic. We are not fazed. We will wi--gurk!"

Ultros's theme song should just be Britney Spears's Womanizer. I wonder what his type is. I know he's just out to eat them right now, but he's clearly trying to be a ladies' man while he's at it.

But dude. They probably have the nutrients you want. You're treating Sabin like he's an icky vegetable!

What do you want, Ultros? Tell me you want!
 
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