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[Chezzymann]

seriously, what was going on there.

I was trying to avatar quote you lol

 

[BennyBlanco]

Wow, I had no idea shilling paid so well. To think so many people do it for free too.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

Sony ones were probably more prevalent during the PS3 launch with so much bad buzz. Kind of unnecessary now when console is so well received. The XB1 launch period was a crazy time, my first launch on GAF. Crazy Xbox users writing these long rants about the All-in-One entertainment system, chalkboards, and trying to start The One™ as a thing. Great stuff.

Yeah, that whole event was the main reason I started lurking GAF more frequently and eventually got my own account.

Thanks, Microsoft!

 

[A-V-B]

I was trying to avatar quote you lol

Yeah, I know. I saw you trying to correct the thing. It looked okay. There was a period at the end of the post but I didn't think it was connected to the img code.

 

[Averon]

I can almost guarantee youtube isn't the only place it's happening. It wouldn't surprise me if companies (not just MS) have full marketing teams devoted to posting online in message boards, comments sections, subreddits, etc. to steer & shape opinions. It's actually kinda scary when you really think about it.

I'm pretty sure NeoGAF was flooded with paid shills during the Xbone announcement/fiasco. The moderation staff even acknowledge it, if I remember correctly.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Wow, I had no idea shilling paid so well. To think so many people do it for free too.

It's not shilling if it's done for free.

 

[oti]

Lol. Machinimaa. I remember when I thought they were cool.

When you were 12 years old?

Spoiler

 

[stilgar]

Your avatar and the theme of this thread make me think aboutt Phisheep.
What has he become ?

 

[A-V-B]

It's not shilling if it's done for free.

...shilling slave labor?

 

[Architechnophile]

I'm more interested in the future behavior and that disclosure gets better. Of course in the future this fine must increase as they've been made aware of it now and the next compliance breach would be willful instead of lol we're new media everything is different.

I added your post to the OP. I hope you don't mind.

Coolcool.

I wonder what protocols the FTC has available for escalation, in the event of noncompliance, even brazen noncompliance. There doesn't seem to be much here to make compliance a real compelling concern for Machinima, outside of a fine with a paltry max. And do other YouTube broadcasting aggregators look at this and think, "so, our first offense is basically free?"

 

[wumster3000]

I've never heard about this, but if this is true, then good. They should get burned. Let the consoles speak for themselves.

 

[FullMetaltech]

I did a little dive through the FTC's relevant documents.

Some things worth noting:

The settlement order itself

"Each violation of such an order may result in a civil penalty of up to $16,000." - I can't find it in writing, but I believe this would be leveled at Machinima. I think it's also worth noting that this is almost the same amount as Machinima paid YouTubers for the videos in the first place. Hard to see it as a stiff penalty, considering their likely profits.

The FTC waived Microsoft and Starcom of any responsibility in the matter. From the FTC: "while Microsoft and Starcom both were responsible for the influencers’ failure to disclose their material connection to the companies...staff considered the fact that these appeared to be isolated incidents that occurred in spite of, and not in the absence of, policies and procedures designed to prevent such lapses." - So the FTC holds Microsoft and Starcom responsible for the ethical breach, but appears to let them off the hook simply because they have a nominal policy against it.

The settlement is up for public comment for the next 30 days, electronically.

Thats pretty crazy.

 

[HariKari]

Damn. Wonder how many companies have payola schemes like this working right now.

EA makes a killing with their Ronku program and this crap. Get, say, Battlefielders to post positive videos about a horrible, buggy release with no mention of said bugs. Profit.

 

[fedexpeon]

That is a lot of money...
Fuck, why aren't MS paying me =(.
I was supporting Kinect+XB1+XB Fitness yo.

 

[jayu26]

I remember when this news broke there were couple of YouTubers defending this practice on Gaf. Obviously, the whole unethical part went over their heads. Hopefully monetary fines make them change their minds.

 

[Mr. X]

Excellent. Is there a number of incidents noted somewhere?

 

[nynt9]

I've never heard about this, but if this is true, then good. They should get burned. Let the consoles speak for themselves.

As linked in the OP, it was a pretty big deal early last year, with over 4100 posts here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=754946

 

[Neuromancer]

Microsoft needed all the help they could get at launch. Sometimes you have to play dirty to win.

Just kidding, what a shit show. This is one of the reasons I don't give Youtubers no never mind.

 

[CraigerGamer]

Great piece by one of the best in the business.

 

[Dyson Industries]

Better than the fine, I think, is the exposure this brings to what Microsoft was trying to pull at the Xbone launch. What's worse is that anyone who was/is truly into the Xbone automatically became suspect. A good bollocking round the ears to everyone involved in this shady scheme - Machinima, Microsoft and of course, the YouTubers themselves.

Skivving bastards got caught and we'll be watching.

 

[SwiftDeath]

That is a lot of money...
Fuck, why aren't MS paying me =(.
I was supporting Kinect+XB1+XB Fitness yo.

Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free?

 

[GnawtyDog]

Product reviews online should always be taken with a grain of salt, it's a major issue, I think Samsung or some cellphone company like it got in trouble a while ago because they had paid for thousands upon thousands of positive reviews.

A friend of mines sister even had a side job online where the company she worked for would offer to give good reviews for what ever the client wanted. Manipulation like this is apparently big money.

Exhibit A:

First review (since most up-voted).
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-One-Halo-Master-Collection-Bundle/dp/B00TY9KYKE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441215612&sr=8-1&keywords=xbox+one

I find this funny cause the reviewer calls out an allegedly Sony "astroturfer" yet said reviewer is a non-verified purchase.

sidenote: Why do url links from amazon product reviews convert to best buy links upon posting?

 

[benny_a]

Better than the fine, I think, is the exposure this brings to what Microsoft was trying to pull at the Xbone launch. What's worse is that anyone who was/is truly into the Xbone automatically became suspect. A good bollocking round the ears to everyone involved in this shady scheme - Machinima, Microsoft and of course, the YouTubers themselves.

Skivving bastards got caught and we'll be watching.

I don't think the youtubers that were associated with these ethics breaches in this case or the EA one are still identified with that.

You constantly see these popular youtubers recommended for their unbiased previews for games from the same publishers that they were exposed to shill for and maybe someone with a mission on youtube or reddit with -10 points points that out.

 

[thefit]

Microsoft needed all the help they could get at launch. Sometimes you have to play dirty to win.

Just kidding, what a shit show. This is one of the reasons I don't give Youtubers no never mind.

Wow. This responce along with the bemoaning of wannabe shills in here. Gold.

Oh you edited your post, naughty, naughty.

 

[ps3ud0]

So are there still MS shills still here?

I do look forward to more disclosure with YT, as I doubt companies be interested in such marketing when they have to disclose who's being paid for it - surely that isn't worthwhile marketing...

Has the FTC looked into EA and all the BF4 payments?

ps3ud0 8)

 

[AAMARMO]

I knew FTC would do this because a lot of youtubers are getting away for this.

 

[Crayon]

Excellent. Is there a number of incidents noted somewhere?

Here is a gaf post with some relevant reading, from 2013:
One Big Problem With MS: Astroturfing Damages Online Communities

I don't think ms is the only company that does it, but they've been so persistently aggressive about it since the first xbox that I can say they're the only ones I've noticed or known for sure.

 

[The Flash]

15 grand!? Jesus Christ, pay me Microsoft, PAY ME! I'll say anything you want.

 

[Architechnophile]

Michel Futter had some insight on this, from a January article. Includes Microsoft comment:

https://twitter.com/Futterish/status/639126111344062465

https://twitter.com/Futterish/status/639126314050523136

https://twitter.com/Futterish/status/639127432335880192

The January GI article.

I can't find anything refuting the possibility of Microsoft giving initial directions to Machinima that might have resulted in the ethical breach. And I'm wondering how this jibes with the fact that the FTC indicate that they deem Microsoft responsible (even if they're not holding them to it). They deny giving feedback/after the fact direction on the videos, but there's nothing said about their actions prior to the actual commission.

Ah well. It's probably a dead end, there.

 

[Mr Moose]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/24/taiwan-fines-samsung-for-astroturfing-internet-comments/

I love my Samsung phone, Samsung TV and

Spoiler

BenQ

monitor. They are the best you can get!

I want $15,000

 

[newjeruse]

This one incident is going to validate everyone who wants to cast similar aspersions at Polygon, Adam Sessler, or whoever. And they wouldn't be wrong. We would be naive to think this is an isolated incident. Not saying those parties are guilty, but I'm sure there are other outlets out there who are.

 

[TheAbsolution]

Man,I'd like to say that I wouldn't sell out for 30K to produce a few videos but man, that's a very hard number to turn down.

 

[bishoptl]

Man,I'd like to say that I wouldn't sell out for 30K to produce a few videos but man, that's a very hard number to turn down.

 

[benny_a]

This one incident is going to validate everyone who wants to cast similar aspersions at Polygon, Adam Sessler, or whoever. And they wouldn't be wrong. We would be naive to think this is an isolated incident. Not saying those parties are guilty, but I'm sure there are other outlets out there who are.

It will only validate them to idiots.

The issue with youtubers is that except for the mega huge ones the editorial is also the business, instead of traditional media which is borne out of magazines where editorial and business is separated by a firewall.

7 years ago the issue was the small occasion when this firewall let some heat through. And now here we are where the ones accused of being bribed are the most well set up in the face of ethics violations while the ones that are seen as the regular joes are doing these direct deals that they don't even disclose. It's so very very dumb and misplaced.

 

[Family Fry]

Some Youtubers really are becoming monsters.

"We were once approached by a prominent YouTuber outside the world of gaming who suggested we pay them £10,000 to 'like' a video,"

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-16-blurred-lines-are-youtubers-breaking-the-law

People complain about lack of disclosure, the reason these people aren't disclosing is because they know themselves it completely invalidates their opinion and future opinions.

If you disclose you were paid to show content of something you cover, videogame youtuber gets paid to cover a game, you're pretty much shitting on your audience for money.

 

[HariKari]

Man,I'd like to say that I wouldn't sell out for 30K to produce a few videos but man, that's a very hard number to turn down.

For a lot of the bigger youtubers you'd think that number wouldn't be enough to risk the entire brand they've built up. Be interesting to see who else gets caught up in this crackdown. EA needs to be next.

 

[Kysen]

15 K for a good review....wow I am in the wrong job...

Yea, I need to get in on this.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I remember Two Best Friends having to do a kinect video under that banner, and then they proceeded to use the whole episode to shit on the kinect. Good times.

 

[newjeruse]

It will only validate them to idiots.

The issue with youtubers is that except for the mega huge ones the editorial is also the business, instead of traditional media which is borne out of magazines where editorial and business is separated by a firewall.

7 years ago the issue was the small occasion when this firewall let some heat through. And now here we are where the ones accused of being bribed are the most well set up in the face of ethics violations while the ones that are seen as the regular joes are doing these direct deals that they don't even disclose. It's so very very dumb and misplaced.

I'm less concerned about the small-time Youtuber who think it's OK to take the money than I am about the mega-publisher who thinks it's OK to give the money.

 

[BRocknRolla]

Glad something is being done about it. This crap is truly awful for the medium.

 

[TheAbsolution]

For a lot of the bigger youtubers you'd think that number wouldn't be enough to risk the entire brand they've built up. Be interesting to see who else gets caught up in this crackdown. EA needs to be next.

Their fan base is too young and dedicated to care.

 

[mnannola]

So basically anyone that is part of the Machnima network cannot be trusted?

EDIT: Forgot to say great article! Even though it's public knowledge it's nice to see someone break it down.

 

[lazygecko]

It didn't take long at all for "new media" to be co-opted by the same old market forces looking to reshape it into their image. I find it kind of ironic that many of these new independant outlets and personalities are probably much more receptable to what would constitute as direct bribes, which is usually the misplaced accusations you see thrown towards the traditional outlets.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

"Each violation of such an order may result in a civil penalty of up to $16,000." -

Microsoft's attorneys figured this out beforehand and factored it into the cost of this "marketing promotion" and the only ones taking a hit here are Machinima

fyi

thanks ophil spencer

 

[FinalStageBoss]

This type of shit happens all the time tbh

 

[AAMARMO]

People who are with Machnima network are defending it on twitter lol.

 

[DrArchon]

And people still see Youtube as the bastion for unbiased game reviews. I hope this news REALLY gets out in the open for more casual consumers so people stop taking internet celebrities words as gospel and start thinking and doing more research.

 

[Trojan]

It's not shilling if it's done for free.

It is if it's not genuine and there's a motive other than immediate payment, like a future job or other favors. Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but I guarantee that's happened before. It's like politicians becoming lobbyists...you don't exactly get handed a sack of cash right away but being favorable to a certain group will open future doors.

 

[Bronetta]

This type of shit happens all the time tbh

The "its all a dream" blurb gets me everytime. Don't know if its a jab at the indoctrination theory but I like to think it is.

 

[Mister Megative]

Crapgamer, nxtgen and Mooch be like "WHERE MY MONEY, MICROSOFT!!?? WHERE MY MONEY!?!??"