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[DaBuddaDa]

Shit like this is meaningless until someone grows the balls to call people out. Give specific examples from specific games with specific publishers and name names.

 

[JacksUsername]

Good article, but pretty disheartening to see the dismissive comments on the first page of the thread. It's a poor representation of the gaming community that's been hoping for better articles and analysis of the industry. It may not be the strongest article in the world, but it's a step up from regurgitated press releases.

I think a great follow up article would be interviewing and analyzing the role of producers in the game industry. At least in the film industry, producers tend to serve as a mediator between the two parties: maintaining the schedule and budget provided by the studio while seeing that the creative team's vision is not sacrificed. The article points out that many in the games industry seemingly "failed up" and I think a lot of producers from the previous generations may fit that category. Either they're too close to the creator or studio, or they just don't have the experience needed to manage larger budgets and bigger creative teams.

Overall, I feel like the industry doesn't separate production from development enough. QA testers are still seen as the standard entry level job for most of the industry (outside of marketing, finance, human resources, etc.). While it's a good way to get a basic understanding of how a game is developed, it doesn't follow through with how a game is produced through project management and budgeting. I think if the industry provided more entry level jobs in the production side then we'd have stronger, better prepared producers. This is turn would hopefully help the relationship between publishers and developers.

 

[Hyun Sai]

We need better Video Games.

 

[Famassu]

Well damn.

Xseed is a pretty good publisher. Aksys too, we need more like them, willing to take on the niche games.

XSeed & Aksys have zero to do with anything that is mentioned in this article, and not just because of their size.

 

[chun li's thighs]

Publishers often issue hard deadlines. Denying extensions or refusing to delay are seemingly common in the business, so yes, they could easily be at fault for acceptable QA issues.

What's wrong with an agreed upon schedule? For every instance of a dev asking and getting denied an extension, I can give you another of a publisher wanting to extend for quality issues, but the developer not being able to comply because of overhead issues (ie, give me more money).

On another but similar note, I can attest that devs try to have critical issues waived with publisher pushing for quality just as much, if not more, than publishers waiving critical issues.

 

[Nirolak]

I added excerpts from David Jaffe's respond since it seems to share the other side of the coin from a developer's perspective.

 

[jschreier]

* It would not surprise me if this was written by one of the editors and attributed to AGD. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

It would not surprise me if God of War was directed by another developer and attributed to David Jaffe. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

 

[Zabka]

Jaffe's response is fine but accusing Kotaku of faking this with no evidence is pretty low.

 

[Nirolak]

It would not surprise me if God of War was directed by another developer and attributed to David Jaffe. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

I included that since it seemed a bit... off color, so I felt it was only fair for people to be able to criticize that.

 

[pixlexic]

Developers usually get paid upfront and have used for what was in the contract and what was extra. If a publishers wants to add something that usually involves more money which the devs are happy to oblige.

it's not all about the publisher telling the devs what to do. There is a contract there that says what they will do for this amount of money and this ammount of time. I guess what I am saying is sometimes the devs just want to get paid and will do any change orders as long as they get paid for it.

 

[dzelly]

You read fast, champ. You're a real credit to this board.

That's definitely a new record for speed reading.

 

[Vilix]

We need better Video Games.

Yep. Let's start there.

 

[Mlatador]

The article is spot-on and a must read for everyone!

 

[Version 3.0]

Jaffe's response is okay, but I think a little harsh at the individual level. Sure, it's fair to say a developer should try to get a good deal from a publisher - of course.

But on a personal level, say you apply for a job at a developer, get it, and start work on a game that's promising, then end up dealing with problems created by the publisher. You're going to have the types of complaints in the article.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Many people are writing off the comment about better journalism, but (mine in particular) wasn't pointed at this particular article. Look at a lot of the stuff that's come out of a lot of the journalism. Remember the Kane and Lynch / Gamespot scandal? Journalists afraid to say bad stuff or they won't get review copies from publishers? Sim City & Polygon? I have nothing against Kotaku, and this article is really well done, but we could definitely use an overhaul of places (and people) who deliver this news. After all, these are the people who are supposed to be delivering us the information on our hobby. We want it as accurate and unbiased as possible

 

[ShockingAlberto]

* It would not surprise me if this was written by one of the editors and attributed to AGD. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

This is a really shitty accusation to throw around, especially without any evidence.

It is not far removed from the yellow journalism bullshit FOX News engages in by presenting false or misleading news in the form of hypotheticals and questions.

If you were capable of it, David Jaffe, I would suggest you should be ashamed of just throwing that in there like it was nothing. Instead I expect you to get snarky and mad about it.

 

[Barry Burton]

The stuff about the industry's obsession with film and increased emphasis on cinematic presentation over all else, and how that is holding games back, is spot-on.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Many people are writing off the comment about better journalism, but (mine in particular) wasn't pointed at this particular article. Look at a lot of the stuff that's come out of a lot of the journalism. Remember the Kane and Lynch / Gamespot scandal? Journalists afraid to say bad stuff or they won't get review copies from publishers? Sim City & Polygon? I have nothing against Kotaku, and this article is really well done, but we could definitely use an overhaul of places (and people) who deliver this news. After all, these are the people who are supposed to be delivering us the information on our hobby. We want it as accurate and unbiased as possible

If it has nothing to do with the article, then is there a reason it is a part of this thread?

 

[Hero]

Interesting piece. I suspect there's some amount of truth to the article.


Jaffe you are better than that.

 

[jschreier]

Many people are writing off the comment about better journalism, but (mine in particular) wasn't pointed at this particular article. Look at a lot of the stuff that's come out of a lot of the journalism. Remember the Kane and Lynch / Gamespot scandal? Journalists afraid to say bad stuff or they won't get review copies from publishers? Sim City & Polygon? I have nothing against Kotaku, and this article is really well done, but we could definitely use an overhaul of places (and people) who deliver this news. After all, these are the people who are supposed to be delivering us the information on our hobby. We want it as accurate and unbiased as possible

How much would you be willing to pay for good journalism? Think about this for a bit. If your answer is "nothing" - and for most readers on the Internet, that's the case - then you're helping support a dismal future, a future where sites make money not by making great things, but by copying everyone else's things and hoping they make it to the front page of Reddit.

 

[QaaQer]

The need for people to have first post so they can feed their ego by being being quoted multiple times is slowly ruining threads. How did the first poster even read the article before posting his oh so witty comment.

I've taken time to read the article and it's interesting and like you said worthy of discussion not hit and run comments.

I find with many threads, it doesn't actually get interesting or worthwhile until page 3

 

[Osiris]

The film industry learned from Michael Cimino and the Heavens Gate situation that allowing creatives unrestricted artistic control in an industry of such high budgets wasn't wise. Doing so led to the downfall of an entire studio (United Artists).

I'd imagine the same could theoretically happen in the game industry too without close Publisher management and oversight.

That's not to say that they are not often overly restrictive and risk averse, but there are valid lessons in the history of media to understand why they err on the side of caution.

 

[Massa]

That's definitely a new record for speed reading.

Not to defend a bad post, but the article was posted at least two hours earlier than this thread.

 

[Darryl]

And if your studio is not good enough to demand better deals and is not clever enough to secure alternate forms of financing (thus allowing you to bypass the publishers all together) then you deserve what you get.

so it's not the publishers fault unless you're broke or new, then it's the publishers fault. i think that's what i thought to begin with

It would not surprise me if God of War was directed by another developer and attributed to David Jaffe. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

LOL

 

[ShockingAlberto]

How much would you be willing to pay for good journalism? Think about this for a bit. If your answer is "nothing" - and for most readers on the Internet, that's the case - then you're helping support a dismal future, a future where sites make money not by making great things, but by copying everyone else's things and hoping they make it to the front page of Reddit.

I'd be happy if you guys dropped the vagina bread stuff, personally.

 

[SolsticeZero]

If it has nothing to do with the article, then is there a reason it is a part of this thread?

It has plenty to do with this thread. This article mentions how the publishers got to big and mighty and throw the developers under the bus. But if we had journalism that accurately conveyed the negatives, we may not have to deal with a bunch of bullshit in the first place. Granted, that's thinking very optimistically, but if we want the publishers to change, I'd like to toss the journalists in for a reboot as well.

How much would you be willing to pay for good journalism? Think about this for a bit. If your answer is "nothing" - and for most readers on the Internet, that's the case - then you're helping support a dismal future, a future where sites make money not by making great things, but by copying everyone else's things and hoping they make it to the front page of Reddit.

I'd have no problem paying for good journalism, in all honesty. It's sad that the journalism sites have to rely solely on advertising and everything to make money. Makes me miss the paper magazine days. With the internet, people want it fast and free, no matter what.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Come on Jaffe. The problem is that the definition of "good enough" has changed to mean "achieving Activision Blizzard sales" and nothing else, making it impossible for anyone without incredible resources behind them to compete. If that's the standard that everyone has to meet from now on.....everyone is fucked. Tomb Raider selling 3.5 million was actually called a failure. That's not Crystal Dynamics fault. That's SE's idiotic management.

 

[Famassu]

Absolutely not. I believe that's entirely Cage's own warped sense of what video games should be.

No, it's just your biased, twisted opinion of what games MUST be, as if it can be one thing and one thing only, instead of offering wonderfully different kind of experiences for those who want variety. The world has as much room for Cage's approach for gaming as it has for Devil May Cry/Unreal Tournament/whatever you think is the prime example of hardcore gaming. Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls and Fahrenheit are not at all less valid a form of gaming than those kinds of core games.

 

[noobasuar]

It's hard not to find stuff to agree with in both the article and David jaffes response.

I do have to wonder if people that were enfluential in the past have left the industry to persue other things or moved on to smaller studios or what.

Like I gotta wonder if someone like naughty dog is able to still create an amazing platformer or if those responsible for that are long gone by now because of the direction of the company.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

No, it's just your biased, twisted opinion of what games MUST be, as if it can be one thing and one thing only, instead of offering wonderfully different kind of experiences for those who want variety. The world has as much room for Cage's approach for gaming as it has for Devil May Cry/Unreal Tournament/whatever you think is the prime example of hardcore gaming. Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls and Fahrenheit are not at all less valid a form of gaming than those kinds of core games.

Please. The world has as much room for Quantic Dream as Sony's wallet allows it to. When they eventually drop them, no one will be in line to pick them up.

 

[Dictator93]

It would not surprise me if God of War was directed by another developer and attributed to David Jaffe. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

LOL. Great comeback.

The article is basically a confirmation of our collective suspicions. While it is unfair to blame everything on publishers... I see it as a likely scenario that publishers deserve a larger share of "blame" burden.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Please. The world has as much room for Quantic Dream as Sony's wallet allows it to. When they eventually drop them, no one will be in line to pick them up.

Why do you say that? Cage has said that numerous times that Heavy Rain was profitable and successful. And publishers like money. Somebody would pick them up. Would the give Cage all the freedom that Sony does? No, probably not. But to say that nobody would pick them up? That's crazy.

 

[Deitus]

Many people are writing off the comment about better journalism, but (mine in particular) wasn't pointed at this particular article. Look at a lot of the stuff that's come out of a lot of the journalism. Remember the Kane and Lynch / Gamespot scandal? Journalists afraid to say bad stuff or they won't get review copies from publishers? Sim City & Polygon? I have nothing against Kotaku, and this article is really well done, but we could definitely use an overhaul of places (and people) who deliver this news. After all, these are the people who are supposed to be delivering us the information on our hobby. We want it as accurate and unbiased as possible

That's what this thread is for: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497024

I absolutely agree that we need better standards in game journalism. In some ways, things have improved over the last year, but in others they have stayed the same or gotten worse. It absolutely needs to be discussed continually until the state of journalism markedly improves. But it's still irrelevant to this topic, especially considering the article in question isn't journalism, it's an op-ed.

Also, perhaps more importantly, if the message we want to send Kotaku and other sites is that they need to do more quality journalism and less repackaged press releases, crapping on them at every opportunity sends the wrong message. It tells them we literally don't care what they do, and that they are better off doing what makes them more money. If we actually provide positive feedback for good work and negative feedback for poor work, it makes it easier for them to sift through the noise and determine what they are doing well and what needs improvement.

 

[Omegasquash]

To a point, both parties are right. Passive accusations of being written by editors aren't very cool IMO, but he's free to say what he thinks.

A dickish publisher can steamroll a small developer, sure. A developer can also improve their game (no pun intended) and make the studio and ideas it creates as a whole more valuable. Two sides of a different coin, here.

 

[Hale-XF11]

Interesting timing, since Jools Watsham of Renegade Kid just posted an article in his blog talking about this very thing:

http://joolswatsham.blogspot.com/2013/04/turning-point-going-indie.html

A publisher that they were going to develop for put almost all the risk on Renegade Kid, 'forcing' RK, in a sense, to not accept their deal and go indie. He had determined that going indie, while risky, was less risky than taking the shitty publishing deal.

Lucky for them, they could go indie, but surely some other desperate developer out there took the deal so that they would have something to work on.

 

[Mononoke]

This is a really shitty accusation to throw around, especially without any evidence.

It is not far removed from the yellow journalism bullshit FOX News engages in by presenting false or misleading news in the form of hypotheticals and questions.

If you were capable of it, David Jaffe, I would suggest you should be ashamed of just throwing that in there like it was nothing. Instead I expect you to get snarky and mad about it.

Agreed, but it's not like Gawker Media network (including Kotaku) has a good track record. I would say their practices in the past put in question the credibility of their work. Or at least, makes one skeptical when they post these kind of articles.

I mean come on, the history of Gawker. It's like you bringing up FOX news, they've just done so much terrible shit that if Fox posted an article with an "unnamed" source, you too would question it. Fox's reputation has been damaged because of these practices (and even you went straight for them as an example because of their history). Gawker thrives off sensationalist articles, and flame baiting.

 

[grimshawish]

Interesting timing, since Jools Watsham of Renegade Kid just posted an article in his blog talking about this very thing:

http://joolswatsham.blogspot.com/2013/04/turning-point-going-indie.html

A publisher that they were going to develop for put almost all the risk on Renegade Kid, 'forcing' RK, in a sense, to not accept their deal and go indie. He had determined that going indie, while risky, was less risky than taking the shitty publishing deal.

Jaffe has a point though - they never 'force' them to do anything. Publishers are not charities, but RK made the right choice anyway.

 

[remnant]

Please. The world has as much room for Quantic Dream as Sony's wallet allows it to. When they eventually drop them, no one will be in line to pick them up.

Really? Rockstar won't pick them up? T2 won't pick them up?

Their tech alone makes them valuable.

 

[sublimit]

I feel that this quote...

Having film as a touchstone for gaming is very much a thing that comes from publishers. It’s harmful to games, but this is what many of them want.

Not only does the framing of games as film excuse this habit of making high-level decisions based on aesthetics instead of in interactivity, but it also affords a modicum of prestige via an association with a medium that’s more established. This is what goes through their heads, but, in reality, this is absolutely killing games and developers dead.

The kind of ruinous top-down publisher decisions that I’m talking about often involve how a game looks and flows. The design changes that result tend to involve the creation of rigid and extended animations, ill-placed cutscenes and, at its worst, the functional simplification of core mechanics in favor of something that looks nicer to watch. The game that we all wind up with usually plays far worse because of those requested changes.

...paints the situation of the recent Tomb Raider reboot perfectly with the only difference being that it was both Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix that agreed to turn the franchise into a shitty movie.In fact i'm not sure if SE wanted that direction but i'm 100% Crystal wanted it.

And like Jaffe said if a developer doesn't like the direction the publisher is forcing upon them they should negotiate it,or refuse to sign the contract.
If you're not making the kind of games you want to make then what's the point?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

interesting commentaries all around. it is no surprise that there is enough blame to go around.

 

[Risk Breaker]

Eh, I think the Kotaku article is quite appropiate.

 

[SolsticeZero]

That's what this thread is for: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497024

I absolutely agree that we need better standards in game journalism. In some ways, things have improved over the last year, but in others they have stayed the same or gotten worse. It absolutely needs to be discussed continually until the state of journalism markedly improves. But it's still irrelevant to this topic, especially considering the article in question isn't journalism, it's an op-ed.

Also, perhaps more importantly, if the message we want to send Kotaku and other sites is that they need to do more quality journalism and less repackaged press releases, crapping on them at every opportunity sends the wrong message. It tells them we literally don't care what they do, and that they are better off doing what makes them more money. If we actually provide positive feedback for good work and negative feedback for poor work, it makes it easier for them to sift through the noise and determine what they are doing well and what needs improvement.

I didn't even know that thread existed. Bookmarked! And my comment was in no way directed solely at Kotaku. I was posting from my phone and didn't expand on my argument. Apologies that it was taken differently.

 

[noobasuar]

Why do you say that? Cage has said that numerous times that Heavy Rain was profitable and successful. And publishers like money. Somebody would pick them up. Would the give Cage all the freedom that Sony does? No, probably not. But to say that nobody would pick them up? That's crazy.

I think that heavy rain had a much stronger buzz going into it than beyond so who knows if it will sell well or be a complete flop. I'm leaning towards that latter.

 

[Jake Tower]

It would not surprise me if God of War was directed by another developer and attributed to David Jaffe. I have no inside info, just saying I could see this being the case.

Well played

 

[Hale-XF11]

Jaffe has a point though - they never 'force' them to do anything. Publishers are not charities, but RK made the right choice anyway.

A charity is a free hand out. I don't think that's what RK (or any other developer for that matter) is looking for. Just a fair deal, where both sides assume some bit of risk. In RK's situation, the publisher wanted to put most of the risk on the developer.

 

[Famassu]

Please. The world has as much room for Quantic Dream as Sony's wallet allows it to. When they eventually drop them, no one will be in line to pick them up.

"Please" yourself... my point flew high above your head. I'm talking about Cage's approach in general, not just specifically Cage's games/studio (the post I was responding to was trying to make it seem like how Cage approaches gaming is somehow wrong and no one, Quantic Dreams or others, should ever try to make games like theirs). His approach to gaming is as valid as anything else (a kind of visual novel-ish, cinematic adventure game) and even if Quantic Dreams gets shut down in the future I do hope the kind of games that they've made will still get made (with hopefully better writing). It would be completely idiotic to start limiting what kind of games get developed by some silly core gamer values that were thought up by narrowminded gamers. No matter if you think Heavy Rain is the worst shit in the world, I'd like to get a game that plays like it does once in a while.

 

[bigboss370]

This is a really shitty accusation to throw around, especially without any evidence.

It is not far removed from the yellow journalism bullshit FOX News engages in by presenting false or misleading news in the form of hypotheticals and questions.

If you were capable of it, David Jaffe, I would suggest you should be ashamed of just throwing that in there like it was nothing. Instead I expect you to get snarky and mad about it.

he admits he doesn't have insider info or anything, just that he wouldn't be surprised. I don't see anything wrong with what he said, especially given that there were no specifics or names in the article.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Agreed, but it's not like Gawker Media network (including Kotaku) has a good track record. I would say their practices in the past put in question the credibility of their work. Or at least, makes one skeptical when they post these kind of articles.

I mean come on, the history of Gawker. It's like you bringing up FOX news, they've just done so much terrible shit that if Fox posted an article with an "unnamed" source, you too would question it. Gawker thrives off sensationalist articles, and flame baiting.

You don't just get to throw around "You're lying" especially if you follow it up with "I have nothing indicating this, I was just thinking it would be interesting if you were lying."

I think David Jaffe says assholish things. I think he is, on occasion, an asshole. Should I extrapolate that to say, I bet David Jaffe cursed out a baby? Like, just put his head in to the stroller and called it a fucker for like ten minutes? It would be interesting if he did!

There's no defending those kinds of accusations with no proof. If they did in fact, despite how completely unnecessary it would be, write that article and pass it off as being written by someone who does not actually exist, then I am wrong. But I'm not going to feel bad about calling accusations of that nature without any evidence irresponsibly shameful, though.

 

[Xater]

Having briefly worked on the business/publishing side of one of the largest game publishers, I'd agree with the comments about execs having never played games. It was shocking to me how frequently I would be in a brainstorming type meeting where senior folks would be throwing out different types of "monetization" ideas in such a way the belied their complete ignorance to the way a particular game or console worked.

Perhaps even more concerning was the pervasive, though mostly unspoken, attitude that "hardcore gamers" were basically people wasting their lives, whereas execs like themselves had better things to do than throw away their lives playing video games. At times it felt like we were drug kingpins trying to figure out a way to charge more and/or make our product more addictive to the unwashed masses and addicts who actually consumed our product.

I'm not saying that every exec needs to be a super gamer, but it's pretty sad when many don't even own a console or PC capable of playing the games they're producing. I promise situations like this don't exist in film or publishing. Most if not all of those folks are fairly avid film viewers and readers. Instead, execs who were known to actually play games were generally talked about as the exception to the rule.

I think other creative mediums there is also more trust given to proven creators. Has anyone ever heard of the equivalent of a director who has "final cut" rights in the videogame industry?

Large publishers also don't dedicate resources to more sophisticated, artistic projects in the same way that film or book publishing does. Sure there are the summer blockbusters, popcorn genre flicks, and 5 ghostwritten James Patterson bestsellers per year, but there are also the "prestige" pictures put out for Oscar season and the type of serious literature that shows up on NY Times best of the year lists. In many cases the attention generated from these awards is enough to make these more thoughtful efforts financial successes. As long as video game execs dismiss games as mostly a waste of time for high school/college students and people who never move out of their parents basements, you'll never see a similar model embraced by the large publishers.

And another one who confirms that a lot of execs don't actually play games. How that is even possible in the media business is absolutely not something I can understand. You probably should know your own product and that of you competitors.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Should I extrapolate that to say, I bet David Jaffe cursed out a baby? Like, just put his head in to the stroller and called it a fucker for like ten minutes?

I laughed so hard at this thought for some reason.