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[Iggzy]

Anything that scammer touches turns into shit

 

[Moneal]

Thanks for quoting this. It's very helpful. So does anybody at this point feel like developers that want to portray their characters in a fair light still feel the need go against the company at large? Or is making companies that still want to use the lazy way to create a character still cherished?

I would say tropes aren't bad. Though the overuse of tropes is bad. Is the knight saving the damsel in distress bad, does it teach men/boys to be misogynistic? well the study i linked doesn't say it does.

Games/movies are bad when they just throw tropes together. Making characters without having real motivations based on tropes is bad, and worse when they just reverse the tropes, which is what seems to happen when companies follow the sjw agenda. The knight saving the damsel is fine if the knight is in love with the damsel. People actually don't often notice tropes when the trope is backed up by real motivation.

As for stereotypes, they are similar to tropes. They aren't always bad, and overuse is bad. Franklin and Lamar are both stereotypes, would you consider them bad characters? They have their motivations and they feel like real characters. Movies like Boys in The Hood used stereotypes, but again the characters fit the setting and had motivations. Again they felt real, and people regardless of race could see parts of themselves in the characters.

Giving characters realistic motivations as to why they are stereotypical or part of a trope is the thing that makes good characters. A black gang banger is fine as a character, just like a black doctor from the inner city is fine. one is more stereotypical, but as long as the motivations behind the character work there isn't a problem with either one.

 

[Dunki]

Okay will do.


https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-03/osu-pab031914.php


Like I said....it's okay for devs to think about what stereotypes their characters maybe displaying. Some devs don't want to display negative stereotypes when it can be avoided. And other devs might even want to try to dispell these stereotypes by displaying the opposite from what we normally see in video games. The question is can gamers as a collective respect Developers that don't want to play the same stereotype game with the same type of looking characters doing and acting the same way game after game? Or will we allow them to fully express themselves?

I love how this puts even race into it.

We know that video games can you make more exciting and you react more stongly to evertything shortly after you have finished but these kind of studies say nothing about long term. Which the stdy about sexist behaviour does for eample.

Also I think it is fucking hilarious to use video games while the whole rap/gangster culture of black media portrays these stereotypes way more than anything else.

If a Rey character happens and it's a bad character, then criticize her for being a bad character. People who immediately react to the "agenda" of inclusivity are just as guilty of pushing their narrow views as the people they are reacting to.

Gaf right now has a really bad problem of pushing back without actually trying to make games better in the process. Writers always have some kind of idea they want to convey with their stories and characters, politics of various kinds are always going to be present.

So many people here confuse "pushing an agenda" with "pushing an agenda I disagree with."

Here is the thing if its a bad character it is a bad character but that is not whats going on with games "journalism" right now these character are not even allowed to have bad sides not even a obviously evil guy can be racist against minorities. As biggest example is how the media did treat Far Cry for having minority characters and women on the evil side. They were really triggered about this especially polygon and waypoint.

If its a bad character let it be one and maybe try to encourage the developer instead of shaming and lynching him online.

 

[RedVIper]

So things are only true with a company does a year's worth of research on it? And by the way, it has been researched before. Google for it.

Things are true if we can prove they are true, you thinking something is true doesn't make it so, the same way me thinking it isn't doesn't make it false either.

You're right there have been studies done about video games, none of them proves that playing GTA will make you a criminal, playing CIV won't make you a grand strategist and, unfortunately, playing super seducer won't make you a pick up artist.

(And btw telling me to google something isn't an argument, if you have sources post them so everyone can see, telling me to do your homework and defend your claims is stupid.)

 

[Kadayi]

WOW. I thought this was a joke but that 'post-gamergate' slide is something else.



JFC, they really drank the kool-aid hard on her particular brand of confirmation Bias BS

I think they need to get away from using the term 'gamers and start thinking about them as 'Customers', mayhap then they might be less inclined to throw around words like 'Toxic'.

 

[mckmas8808]

Things are true if we can prove they are true, you thinking something is true doesn't make it so, the same way me thinking it isn't doesn't make it false either.

You're right there have been studies done about video games, none of them proves that playing GTA will make you a criminal, playing CIV won't make you a grand strategist and, unfortunately, playing super seducer won't make you a pick up artist.

(And btw telling me to google something isn't an argument, if you have sources post them so everyone can see, telling me to do your homework and defend your claims is stupid.)

Fair but a person like myself should be allowed to give an opinion without having to post many researched topics on the matter. Notice how only one side is asked to provide research in a thread like this. But I did post a research paper to show evidence as to why I feel the way I do, so thanks for the participation in the thread.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I just looked up games developed by Ubisoft Toronto. Nothing lost.

Onto the shit list with you.

Toronto is the SanFran/Portland/Seattle of Ontario. So it does not surprise me.

 

[RedVIper]

Fair but a person like myself should be allowed to give an opinion without having to post many researched topics on the matter. Notice how only one side is asked to provide research in a thread like this. But I did post a research paper to show evidence as to why I feel the way I do, so thanks for the participation in the thread.

A person like yourself ( Which I assume is the same as everyone else) has every right to give his opinion, but you're stating your opinion as facts, as universal truths that need no confirmation because you say its true and from your real life experience you can claim with absolute certainty that it is true. You can see why I, and everyone else, would have a problem with this, when you claim something as facts you need to be ready to provide evidence, you're free to give your opinions on the subject, as long as it is just that, and I promise you won't be requested for any research.

 

[Dargor]

Fair but a person like myself should be allowed to give an opinion without having to post many researched topics on the matter. Notice how only one side is asked to provide research in a thread like this. But I did post a research paper to show evidence as to why I feel the way I do, so thanks for the participation in the thread.

Sorry to butt in, you won't see me quoting you out of thin air ever again without being part of the conversation in the first place, but I think the only reason people are calling you out for citations is cuz you're the only one that claimed something was common wisdom.

Have a nice day, byebye.

 

[LOLCats]

WOW. I thought this was a joke but that 'post-gamergate' slide is something else.



JFC, they really drank the kool-aid hard on her particular brand of confirmation Bias BS

I think they need to get away from using the term 'gamers and start thinking about them as 'Customers', mayhap then they might be less inclined to throw around words like 'Toxic'.

WOW just WOW. They really are out of touch with the actual gamer base. This is not a good look and unfortunately, i wont be buying any Ubi titles for the foreseeable future. No wonder the protags in Odyssey are the way they are.

and i definitely understand why some one leaked this.

 

[MMaRsu]

Fucking pathetic company.

 

[ZiriusOne]

SJW games will soon begin to fade

Politically correct stuff won't sell any longer

True. Radical movements never survive very long. You can see it with Anitas youtube channel. Once she had hudreds of thousands of views for her stuff, now her videos get 1-2k views max. Once she was everywhere, now nobody cares about her anymore. Same thing will happen with the other people that support this SJW garbage.

Before long, developers will hire based on merit again and start making games for their core fanbases again instead of for a fringe community that can not be satisfied.

 

[Zeusexy]

So long, Ubisoft.

 

[mckmas8808]

Before long, developers will hire based on merit again and start making games for their core fanbases again instead of for a fringe community that can not be satisfied.

Those hired by merit also include people of color, women, and people that belong to the LGBTQ community by the way. And the fanbase for video games also include those people. Lets not forget that.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Those hired by merit also include people of color, women, and people that belong to the LGBTQ community by the way. And the fanbase for video games also include those people. Lets not forget that.

So then there's no problem?

 

[GrimDarkDarrel]

Here is the thing if its a bad character it is a bad character but that is not whats going on with games "journalism" right now these character are not even allowed to have bad sides not even a obviously evil guy can be racist against minorities. As biggest example is how the media did treat Far Cry for having minority characters and women on the evil side. They were really triggered about this especially polygon and waypoint.

If its a bad character let it be one and maybe try to encourage the developer instead of shaming and lynching him online.

I agree with everything you've said here, but the last part goes both ways. I'm not thinking of you specifically with this, but I'm seeing a lot of the same kind of shaming and lynching going against progressives idealogies at the merest detection of their existence, when the product is still sight unseen. People are exactly mirroring what they are accusing journalists of, just being on the other side.

I would argue that a bad writer is a bad writer, and just be honest about the fact that it's an agenda I disagree with, not try to take the position that the presence of an agenda at all is somehow new and ruining gaming.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

You speak as if most gamers think and feel like you. They could be having a change of heart on what their artist are forced to design.

That's definitely feasible and I'm sure you are right, but based on what I've seen on a plethora of forums and social media sites, it seems like most gamers are not pleased with the direction some companies are going in as far as political views are concerned. Seems like the negativity outweighed the positivity.

Wolfenstein 3
Tomb Raider
Fortnite
Dead or Alive 6
Mass Effect Andromeda

To name a few.

 

[Cosmogony]

Okay will do.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-03/osu-pab031914.php

Let's look through the article, which isn't the study itself, mind you.

Afterward, those who played with the violent goal and as a black avatar showed stronger explicit negative attitudes toward blacks than did those who played as a white avatar

I'm terribly sorry. But what the study would have to have shown in order to support your point is that the attitudes got worse as a direct result of playing the game under the described conditions, i. e., that the same individuals showed more biased attitudes as a direct consequence of playing, or, alternatively, that the attitudes of both groups were statistically undifferentiated before but not after playing. And the study does not do that.

For example, those who played as a black avatar were more likely to agree with the statement "It's really a matter of some people not trying hard enough; if blacks would only try harder they could be just as well off as whites."

This certainly suggests the kind of biases the researchers themselves hold. The study attempts to depict a debatable but nonetheless legitimate statement as necessarily bigoted. Yet there are a number of ways in which it is a rational, certainly non-racist assertion. Because, seemingly, these researchers have never been exposed to the argument, their default position seems to be that it must necessarily be racially-driven.

The fatal blow on the study's credibility is this one:

Results showed that participants who played the violent version of the game as a black avatar were more likely to associate black faces with negative words on the IAT than were those who played as a white avatar.

What were the results of the control group then? Did the study measure short-term or long term effects? Did the effects disappear? Are the alleged effects just tied to race? What about gender? If, say, the avatar were purple, would negative associations also spill over to purple objects, individuals with purple-dyed hair, the purple color itself?

As a side note, long standing statistics categorically show that violent crime is more prevalent in black communities. I will offer Channel 4's sum up article, given how this is an overtly left-leaning media outlet: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime .

It doesn't mean black people are more violent, just that they currently trend to behave more violently. The reasons for this statistical discrepancy are beyond this discussion. But this is the current reality. It is a fact. It hasn't always been the case in the past and the situation might change in the future, but it is a fact here and now.

Like I said....it's okay for devs to think about what stereotypes their characters maybe displaying. Some devs don't want to display negative stereotypes when it can be avoided.

Devs should do whatever they are inclined to but they also need to bear the consequences in mind, which rightfully include being criticized and having their games excluded from people's shopping lists.

And other devs might even want to try to dispell these stereotypes by displaying the opposite from what we normally see in video games

You are overselling the power of videogames. Additionally, it tends to lead to worse games, when you use them as mere vehicles to tell the world how you think the world should be.

The question is can gamers as a collective respect Developers that don't want to play the same stereotype game with the same type of looking characters doing and acting the same way game after game?

What a terrible question. "We" "gamers" don't exist as a homogenous collective with consensual opinions and collective responsibility on anything. You and I, we are gamers, Nothing else besides that flimsy, tenuous, practically non-existent tie bonds us together and as such it would be rather illegitimate to treat us as though we were part of an accountable social agglomerate. You and I probably disagree on everything that matters and holding us collectively accountable for anything would be beyond preposterous.

The kind of obtusely vague language you use is also problematic. What's entailed in "respecting a developer"? Am I not allowed to criticize them? Am I to buy their games just because they went against the grain of stereotype, buy their games even though I don't like the end product? Be clear. Say what specifically is on your mind when you urge gamers to "respect developers".
Because I suspect it's compelled respect, to respect the developer at the expense of disrespecting oneself.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Punchpudding]

The gospel comparison is so apt; I feel the same way about this as if the leaked slides said their games for "the glory of Jesus Christ".

The creators get to feel righteous while making video games. Some people would love it, some people would hate it. You can tell me it won't impact the gameplay or story, but I'll be damned if I don't feel suspicious.

 

[ickythingz]

And there goes my purchase for the new AC. I refuse to support a dev that bends like this.

 

[DeepEnigma]

She is an opportunist...

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Generally, I do not allow political views in games sway my decision in whether or not I purchase a particular game or not. If they put out something I want to play whether Anita's or Ubisoft's perspectives are behind it or not, I'll give it a fair chance. At the end of the day, I ask myself, am I enjoying the game or not?

 

[Breakage]

Stereotypes exist for a reason. In my view, people who are really offended by stereotypes can't bring themselves to admit that stereotypes contain a general element of truth about a particular group.
I also notice that those bothered by stereotypes are only bothered when the stereotype highlights something unpleasant. You don't hear, for example, black guys complaining about the stereotype of being well endowed.

 

[Hendrick's]

True. Radical movements never survive very long. You can see it with Anitas youtube channel. Once she had hudreds of thousands of views for her stuff, now her videos get 1-2k views max. Once she was everywhere, now nobody cares about her anymore. Same thing will happen with the other people that support this SJW garbage.

Before long, developers will hire based on merit again and start making games for their core fanbases again instead of for a fringe community that can not be satisfied.

Fake outrage and concern over a thing only lasts until the next soup du jour. These people have no real conviction.

 

[mckmas8808]

Stereotypes exist for a reason. In my view, people who are really offended by stereotypes can't bring themselves to admit that stereotypes contain a general element of truth about a particular group.
I also notice that those bothered by stereotypes are only bothered when the stereotype highlights something unpleasant. You don't hear, for example, black guys complaining about the stereotype of being well endowed.

Actually, black people talk about this all the time. Many black people have said that we hate being over-sexualized in many different ways. The well-endowed thing plays into that.




And I have something else for the thread readers.

Moreover, the authors' findings suggested that males who have been exposed to video games that promote women as sexual objects and males as dominant figures are more tolerant to accounts of sexual abuse when presented with a real-life case study. Adolescents, especially males, could develop aggression toward females if they are repeatedly presented with sexualized images and stereotypes of them. Brenick, Henning, Killen, O'Connor and Collins (2007) revealed that males were more likely than females to find stereotypes acceptable in video games. These disturbing findings suggest that exposure to stereotypic imagery in virtual media can alter social judgements. Furthermore, the results indicated that individuals who play video games with high frequency are more likely to condone negative stereotypic images of both males and females than individuals who play video games with low frequency. Together, these findings indicate that male highfrequency players may show increases in aggression and are more likely to accept this aggression perhaps due to hyper-masculine imagery rampant in such video games. Those who are more accepting of aggressive attitudes are presumably more likely to act aggressively in situations that provoke them. Brenick et al. are quick to add that repeated and prolonged exposure to stereotypic material can reinforce discriminatory attitudes and potentially lead to aggressive behaviour.

Linking overt stereotypes with virtual violence may cause users to develop aggressive knowledge structures directly related to specific populations. Developing schema primed for aggression, especially toward certain ethnicities or groups of people may lead to an individual reacting aggressively toward them in future instances. Similar findings were discovered by Burgess et al. (2011). They examined videogame magazines and found that minority males were underrepresented compared to white males and were more likely to be portrayed as thugs or as athletes. Children and adolescents who play these games may be more likely than adults to internalize such stereotypes. This, in turn, may lead to aggressive behaviour, and possibly violence towards racial minorities, into adulthood .

https://www.trentu.ca/academicskills/documents/samplepaperpsyc.pdf

 

[Blam]

This looks fake. Why in gods name is he taking a screenshot of his own PC, only saying this because I can see xSplit I'm pretty sure on the task bar.

 

[Dunki]

Actually, black people talk about this all the time. Many black people have said that we hate being over-sexualized in many different ways. The well-endowed thing plays into that.




And I have something else for the thread readers.



https://www.trentu.ca/academicskills/documents/samplepaperpsyc.pdf

Oh that is why so many footballers and basketball players are black bcause they saw black people being portrayed as Sport stars. Now it all makes sense. And again the thief? What do you think this fucking gangster rap shit does do people then?

Again this is the video games ar evil thing... Just like it was with D&D, Rock Music and Elvis before...

Oh and for your sexual object part. The German one totally disproved it in a long term study. Besides is this why so many women have rape fantasies and dreams? Because of sexual objects in video games? God to know...

 

[Hendrick's]

This looks fake. Why in gods name is he taking a screenshot of his own PC, only saying this because I can see xSplit I'm pretty sure on the task bar.

Well if its a work PC, I can see why. They can monitor anything you screen-capture.

 

[WaterAstro]

This looks fake. Why in gods name is he taking a screenshot of his own PC, only saying this because I can see xSplit I'm pretty sure on the task bar.

You mean taking a picture, right? Screenshotting in the PC leaves a papertrail.
This insider doesn't want to get caught.

 

[Virex]

Already avoiding Ass Creed Oddessy because of their gender politics. Saving up for a real man's game end of this month.

You can buy Fist Of The North Star : Lost Paradise right now. That's a real man's game as well. And if you like Yakuza you'll love it

 

[Frank Spencer]

Send for Jordan Peterson. Perhaps an interview with Anita?

Watch Dogs 3 is supposedly set in Londonistan. Can't wait for that.....

 

[Blam]

Well if its a work PC, I can see why. They can monitor anything you screen-capture.

You mean taking a picture, right? Screenshotting in the PC leaves a papertrail.
This insider doesn't want to get caught.

I'm saying this is fake because the person who "leaked" this is a streamer, and most likely uses xsplit? I'm no doubt being a conspiratard but I don't trust it lol. Odyssey is coming out in 3 days, I'm sure there's someone out there who doesn't like them, and really this doesn't seem to much like Ubisoft Toronto from the info I know of it,

 

[NickFire]

https://www.trentu.ca/academicskills/documents/samplepaperpsyc.pdf

I'm having a tough time believing the results of any study regarding adolescent exposure to these types of games. To begin with, such a study almost certainly begins with partisan objectives of one sort of another and that is not a good starting point. But even putting that aside, there is a much larger issue with such a study, that being the control subjects. For a study to be scientifically valid on the issue of causation, you always need to control for other influencing factors. And in studies like this, I find it very hard to believe that the parents who were allowing their young kids to play such games were still effectively enforcing a strict prohibition against the same type of content in other media, and also not letting them watch porn on the internet. Without being able to control for those outside influences, all the study tells me is bad parenting correlates to bad kids, which honestly I do not need a study to know.

 

[Cosmogony]

Actually, black people talk about this all the time. Many black people have said that we hate being over-sexualized in many different ways. The well-endowed thing plays into that.

Then each black individual who cannot stomach the stereotype should take it up with each individual who is spreading it around. The black individual who cannot stomach it, though, does not get to act as though he were the representative of black men, a position no one elected him for.

Much in the way you claim you and your circle complain tirelessly about it, I can't begin to tell the number of times I had black men bragging about how it held water. Additionally, for anyone to pass definitive comment on whether the stereotype is accurate or not, he'd have to show hard data - pun intended.

And I have something else for the thread readers.

I can barely wait.

Moreover, the authors' findings suggested that males who have been exposed to video games that promote women as sexual objects

I categorically reject the claim that any mainstream game promotes the notion that women are sexual objects.

and males as dominant figures are more tolerant to accounts of sexual abuse when presented with a real-life case study

Definitions matter. Define tolerant and sexual abuse.

Adolescents, especially males, could develop aggression toward females if they are repeatedly presented with sexualized images and stereotypes of them. Brenick, Henning, Killen, O'Connor and Collins (2007) revealed that males were more likely than females to find stereotypes acceptable in video games.

Here's epistemology 101 for you. If you claim a certain alleged stereotype is not accurate, the burden of proof is on you to present evidence that's the case. Additionally, the sentence in bold does not follow from the quoted study's conclusions. Non sequitur detected.

These disturbing findings suggest that exposure to stereotypic imagery in virtual media can alter social judgements

. Furthermore, the results indicated that individuals who play video games with high frequency are more likely to condone negative stereotypic images of both males and females than individuals who play video games with low frequency. Together, these findings indicate that male highfrequency players may show increases in aggression and are more likely to accept this aggression perhaps due to hyper-masculine imagery rampant in such video games.

None of the quoted conclusions demonstate that in the least.

Those who are more accepting of aggressive attitudes are presumably more likely to act aggressively in situations that provoke them.

Evidence needed in support of the assertion.

Brenick et al. are quick to add that repeated and prolonged exposure to stereotypic material can reinforce discriminatory attitudes and potentially lead to aggressive behaviour.

Evidence needed in support of the assertion.

Linking overt stereotypes with virtual violence may cause users to develop aggressive knowledge structures directly related to specific populations. Developing schema primed for aggression, especially toward certain ethnicities or groups of people may lead to an individual reacting aggressively toward them in future instances. Similar findings were discovered by Burgess et al. (2011). They examined videogame magazines and found that minority males were underrepresented compared to white males

Proportionally?
No magazine is under any obligation to cave in to the fraudulent concept of representation.

and were more likely to be portrayed as thugs or as athletes. Children and adolescents who play these games may be more likely than adults to internalize such stereotypes. This, in turn, may lead to aggressive behaviour, and possibly violence towards racial minorities, into adulthood

Endless chain of unsupported assertions.

 

[Breakage]

Actually, black people talk about this all the time. Many black people have said that we hate being over-sexualized in many different ways. The well-endowed thing plays into that.
And I have something else for the thread readers.

Really? Because here in England I've never come across a black guy who has been offended by girls assuming the size of his penis. In fact, they revel in that common assumption – even though it is a generalized form of thinking ie a stereotype. Same goes for so-called "Tiger Moms". When was the last time you heard a Chinese mother complaining about being called a "Tiger Mom"?
They are more likely to wear that appellation with pride.

 

[Lionel Richie]

This is literally one of the greatest non-videogame things I've ever seen directly from a video game company in years! It makes me want to purchase Ubisoft games even more now (they still have to be good first). It honestly looks like they care about humanity in a way that they don't actually have to do (in a profit-driven world).

Agreed. I remember a discussion I had here with someone back in the old days of GAF where I argued that gaming fans spent way too much time discussing diversity in games instead of out of them in a weird almost fetishistic tokenism trance. It's a backwards way to think about shit and it leads to jarring moments like that one black woman in Human Revolution. It always struck me like people trying to fight the symptom instead of the disease. Ideally we shouldn't fight simpley for having women as characters, but for women to be a bigger creative force in the industry which inevitably leads to more female characters. Sometimes it feels like this discussion hasn't matured past the "Quiet's design is keeping women away from the industry" or "preserve historical accuracy in my games" talking points and it's frustrating, but nice for companies to quietly do shit about it.

 

[strange headache]

I think they need to get away from using the term 'gamers and start thinking about them as 'Customers', mayhap then they might be less inclined to throw around words like 'Toxic'.

So a couple of Sarkeesian videos that nobody watched, a nondescript Kotaku article from '2017' that nobody read and a few hashtags from 2012 are everything they need to smear a whole hobbyist community as 'toxic'. Talking about flimsy evidence... and they wonder why people don't react kindly to that. Man these so called experts really need to keep the boogeyman alive in order to peddle their snake-oil.

And I have something else for the thread readers.

Dude, are you seriously quoting a term paper that was uploaded in 2014 as a "sample of student writing" in order to make your point?

Not to mention that not a single one of the studies mentioned in the footnotes are even relevant to the discussion at hand. Most of them refer to obsolete studies that link games with violent behavior, all of which have been thoroughly debunked by your very own Supreme Court and this meta-study that was published in 2015:

Overall, results from 101 studies suggest that video game influences on increased aggression (r = .06), reduced prosocial behavior (r = .04), reduced academic performance (r = −.01), depressive symptoms (r = .04), and attention deficit symptoms (r = .03) are minimal. Issues related to researchers' degrees of freedom and citation bias also continue to be common problems for the field.

Only two of them talk about actual stereotypes in video games. The first one merely analyzes a sample of 150 magazine covers and complains about a lack of diversity while the second one comes to the shaky conclusion that males are more tolerant of stereotypes than females.

Must have taken you a lot of desperate googling around to come up with that stuff

 

[Moneal]

Actually, black people talk about this all the time. Many black people have said that we hate being over-sexualized in many different ways. The well-endowed thing plays into that.




And I have something else for the thread readers.



https://www.trentu.ca/academicskills/documents/samplepaperpsyc.pdf

That research paper is attributing something the Brenick that isn't involved in the study. Brenick's study was about male's and female's perception of violence, not how it actually affected them. Brenick calls other studies to the point in the paper, but one of those is on the content (Dill KE, Gentile DA, Richter WA, Dill JC. Violence, sex, race and age in popular video games: A content analysis. In: Cole E, Henderson Daniel J, editors. Featuring females: Feminist analyses of the media.) might be some bias there, and the other is basically a different research paper(Funk JB. Children's exposure to violent video games and desensitization to violence. Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America.) from what I can tell. Also neither mention any form of long term study.

 

[brap]

Really doesn't surprise me. I don't play any of their copy pasted garbage anyway.

 

[Horns]

I feel like Anita Sarkeesian's name gets thrown around to gin up some emotions.

 

[Kadayi]

WOW just WOW. They really are out of touch with the actual gamer base. This is not a good look and unfortunately, i wont be buying any Ubi titles for the foreseeable future. No wonder the protags in Odyssey are the way they are.

and i definitely understand why some one leaked this.

On the positives, the fact that they did, means at least one person at Ubisoft Toronto isn't buying whatever they're selling at the presentation. Honestly, I'm fucking astounded that they've had someone actually bang the drum for AS as a voice to listen to. I mean JFC, everyone knew the press was fully cucked because they never even dared to critique her versus align themselves behind her simplistic broad-brushing, but honestly, I expected actual developers to be a bit more grounded and not prone to taking this sort of thing at face value.

 

[mckmas8808]

Really? Because here in England I've never come across a black guy who has been offended by girls assuming the size of his penis. In fact, they revel in that common assumption – even though it is a generalized form of thinking ie a stereotype. Same goes for so-called "Tiger Moms". When was the last time you heard a Chinese mother complaining about being called a "Tiger Mom"?
They are more likely to wear that appellation with pride.

To be fair maybe you haven't spoken to enough black men then. And I haven't heard a Chinese mother complain about being called a Tiger Mom, but that doesn't mean there aren't many out there that would hate being labeled that way. Especially if they disagree with that type of child-rearing.

Agreed. I remember a discussion I had here with someone back in the old days of GAF where I argued that gaming fans spent way too much time discussing diversity in games instead of out of them in a weird almost fetishistic tokenism trance. It's a backwards way to think about shit and it leads to jarring moments like that one black woman in Human Revolution. It always struck me like people trying to fight the symptom instead of the disease. Ideally we shouldn't fight simpley for having women as characters, but for women to be a bigger creative force in the industry which inevitably leads to more female characters. Sometimes it feels like this discussion hasn't matured past the "Quiet's design is keeping women away from the industry" or "preserve historical accuracy in my games" talking points and it's frustrating, but nice for companies to quietly do shit about it.

And that's the crazy thing about this WHOLE thread and the guy that started this whole mess. Ubisoft was doing this quietly and people are still upset and pissed. *shurgs*

That research paper is attributing something the Brenick that isn't involved in the study. Brenick's study was about male's and female's perception of violence, not how it actually affected them. Brenick calls other studies to the point in the paper, but one of those is on the content (Dill KE, Gentile DA, Richter WA, Dill JC. Violence, sex, race and age in popular video games: A content analysis. In: Cole E, Henderson Daniel J, editors. Featuring females: Feminist analyses of the media.) might be some bias there, and the other is basically a different research paper(Funk JB. Children's exposure to violent video games and desensitization to violence. Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America.) from what I can tell. Also neither mention any form of long term study.

So lets say the results were short term and not long term. Does that mean no developers should care about this?

 

[Breakage]

To be fair maybe you haven't spoken to enough black men then.

Where are the masses of black guys complaining about women making assumptions about the size of their penises? Where are the YouTube videos? Blogs? Support forums? Anything that demonstrates this stereotype is a real problem for black guys.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I'm going to miss Ubisoft...

R.I.P Beyond Good and Evil 2 and Assassin's Creed.

 

[strange headache]

And that's the crazy thing about this WHOLE thread and the guy that started this whole mess. Ubisoft was doing this quietly and people are still upset and pissed. *shurgs*

Doing this quietly and without transparency only lends credence to conspiracy mongers who claim to identify a political agenda behind each innocuous aspect of a game. But most of all, it goes to show how little confidence they have in the validity of these claims if they feel the need to keep their customers in the dark about this.

So lets say the results were short term and not long term. Does that mean no developers should care about this?

In the context of behavioral studies "short term effects" refer to measurable differences in behavior that dissipate after a short while (usually a couple of hours) and have no lasting effects on the subject. I'm pretty sure you felt pretty hyped after watching Black Panther, yes? So the same thing happens to you if you go watch an intense action movie, read a sad book that makes you cry or watch a comedy that makes you laugh. Should we forbid that stuff too merely because it elicits an emotional response in people?

Just stop it with your fear mongering. We're getting dangerously close to "rock n' roll is perverting our youth" territory here.

 

[Cosmogony]

Ideally we shouldn't fight simpley for having women as characters, but for women to be a bigger creative force in the industry

No, sir.
What we should strive for is freedom and self-determination, for people to be able to do in life what they want to do in life. If women, as an aggregate, statistically speaking, are less inclined to want to work in the videogame industry, for whatever voluntary reason, so be it. No drama.

Unless you can show there's something systemic about the industry that is preventing women in droves from taking on videogames as a career, your claim is nothing but air.

which inevitably leads to more female characters.

Oh, the gobsmacking irony! You are suggesting that having more female writers would result in more female characters, because that's what women do, write about themselves, right? No, not a stereotype at all. And you'd want black writers writing black protags, trarns writers writing trans ones.

This is the Orwellian intersectional view of the world.

And then you would likely proceed to criticizing white male writers for not succumbing to the pious calls for more diversity and primarily going with male protagonists.

And why would having more female characters be a good thing in and of itself? And is that just your opinion or would it be objectively better to have more female characters?

Sometimes it feels like this discussion hasn't matured past the "Quiet's design is keeping women away from the industry" or "preserve historical accuracy in my games" talking points

If by maturing past you mean the persistent inability of your side to present a rational case, then, yes, I would agree.

and it's frustrating, but nice for companies to quietly do shit about it.

The way to overcome your frustration would be to have a more robust case, because, frankly, as of now, you could hardly do worse.

"It's nice for companies" sums up the depth of your convictions perfectly.

 

[NickFire]

Does anyone know if this leaked before or after the review embargo ended? If it leaked before the same people who praise the ground Anita walks on issued a review, I could see this being strategic.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

So lets say the results were short term and not long term. Does that mean no developers should care about this?

1. What part about the short term results should the developers specifically care about?
2. Do the short term results lead to long term consequences? If so, explain and show evidence.
3. Are the results repeatable consistently? How do you know that the methodology that was used eliminates the probability of high variance?

 

[Bakkus]

Women don't count for 50% of game developers despite women being 50% of all gamers"

Complete and blatant lie. Classical example of a women playing freemium games on average 5 minutes a day is being compared 50/50 to guys playing any video game on average 3 hours a day. That is apparently a 50/50 divide to these people doing these statistics. Look at audience at gaming conventions, look at tourament players and the audience at these places, look at the lines in front of a game store every time something major is being released, look at YouTube channels covering games. How big percentage of these are men compared to women? That's the reflection of gamers.

 

[michaelius]

Those hired by merit also include people of color, women, and people that belong to the LGBTQ community by the way. And the fanbase for video games also include those people. Lets not forget that.

That's how it should be - you always hire best people for the work without looking at gender, race, religion, etc.