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Lebron not on short list for NBA MVP

watdaeff4

Member
I'm glad you can just say, "No he wasn't", and that's somehow supposed to be some validation for your opinions.

Wade led the 2009-10 Miami Heat to 47 wins with Udonis Haslem as the teams 2nd best player. You couldn't name 10 guys in the history of the NBA that could have pulled that off.

LeBron came that next season. Wade was 29 years old during the 2010-11 season. He averaged 25 points a game, 6+ rebounds as a shooting guard and nearly 5 assists. Was that season his absolute best year? No, but are we more defining your prime as your single best season and nothing more? If you agree that he's one of the top 4 shooting guards off all time, then it's kind of ridiculous to say he wasn't in his prime in his late 20's.

As you pointed out my flaw in the Bulls season without Jordan.....don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical then to bring up 2010 Wade (when James wasn't there) and 2011 Wade when I was speaking of the entire four years they played together. Wade fell off fast staring in the 2013 season.

And LOfuckingL that you mock me for saying "no he wasn't" but I'm just supposed to take you at your word on your over-valuing of Wade and Bosh the four years they played with James? Again hypocrisy at its finest


Again this is why Jordan fans who use the Finals records for their arguments are such deeply flawed arguments
 

watdaeff4

Member
Fair enough but you also admitted that neither Grant nor Rodman were great. So the question you need to answer is this..

Would you rather have the trio of Rodman, Kerr and Kukoc surrounding your two top 50 players of all time, or Bosh, Allen and Battier surrounding your two top 50 players of all time?

You won't like my answer.

And yet again........the Wade that James played with wasn the Wade that would make a top 50 team, ESP in the final season. That Wade that was close to Pippen would have led for anither ring for Lebron

And if you aren't willing to concede that point then frankly we're done as nothing that can be said will change your mind.

Crap double post. Sorry
 

ty_hot

Member
People have different opinions because they understand MVP as different things. Best player is LeBron, player that improve the most his own team is either Westbrook or Harden, player that makes his already great team even better is (among others) Curry, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron...
 

Boogs31

Member
As you pointed out my flaw in the Bulls season without Jordan.....don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical then to bring up 2010 Wade (when James wasn't there) and 2011 Wade when I was speaking of the entire four years they played together. Wade well off fast staring in the 2013 season.

You said Wade was never in his prime while LeBron was there. Referencing the 2010 season was a way for me to dispute the idea that he was somehow past his prime. Given that most players don't randomly decline from their 28 to 29 year old seasons. And he wasn't still in his prime just in the 2010-11 season but the 2011-12 season as well. Which, if you factor in that LeBron only played in Miami for 4 years, is half the time he was there.

I could make the argument Pippen was not in his prime for half the years he played with Michael. His first 4 seasons in the league plus the 97-98 season when he was 32. And God if Wade was out of his prime by the time he was 29, then surely Pippen was out of his prime by 32.

And LOfuckingL that you mock me for saying "no he wasn't" but I'm just supposed to take you at your word on your over-valuing of Wade and Bosh the four years they played with James? Again hypocrisy at its finest

Wade made the all NBA team in each of the first three seasons LeBron was in Miami. I'm not the only person that thinks Wade was still at the peak of his powers for at least some of the time LeBron was there.

Again this is why Jordan fans who use the Finals records for their arguments are such deeply flawed arguments

When have I used this argument? You keep bringing it up as if it helps your case but I never said that.
 

Boogs31

Member
You won't like my answer.

And yet again........the Wade that James played with wasn the Wade that would make a top 50 team, ESP in the final season. That Wade that was close to Pippen would have led for anither ring for Lebron

And if you aren't willing to concede that point then frankly we're done as nothing that can be said will change your mind.

In what fantasy land are you living in that Steve Kerr was a better basketball player than Ray Allen, or that Tony Kukoc was better than Shane Battier? Even if I could come to the conclusion that 35 year old Dennis Rodman was better than 28 year old Chris Bosh (Which I don't by the way) you can't sit here and say Kerr and Kukoc touch Allen and Battier. And if you switch Rodman with Grant, Kukoc with no one, and Kerr with Paxson, which is the supporting cast Jordan had for his first three peat, it's even more of a no contest.

I agreed that 2013-2014 Wade was not that good (mainly for durability reasons). But 1987-88 Pippen was much worse.
 
As you pointed out my flaw in the Bulls season without Jordan.....don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical then to bring up 2010 Wade (when James wasn't there) and 2011 Wade when I was speaking of the entire four years they played together. Wade fell off fast staring in the 2013 season.

And LOfuckingL that you mock me for saying "no he wasn't" but I'm just supposed to take you at your word on your over-valuing of Wade and Bosh the four years they played with James? Again hypocrisy at its finest


Again this is why Jordan fans who use the Finals records for their arguments are such deeply flawed arguments

Agreed. Although a much better argument would be a run from 1990-98, when Bulls had zero three game losing streaks while Jordan was in uniform. Same goes for Playoff record: Bulls never lost a series where they had home court advantage. That says a lot about consistency.

And people who bring up the fact that the Bulls still won games when Jordan retired: no kidding! Three time champion with several role players who were coming into their prime. How did that work out a year later? Pippen was on the verge of getting traded when MJ came back. Bulls were at .500. That team + Rodman won 72 games a year later.

And although Rodman was amazing vs. Seattle, he was below average both seasons vs. the Jazz. Bison Dele took most of his minutes the first year and they had to play Kukoc a lot the year after that. Pippen was hurt most of the series and they needed more scoring, no matter how terrible Toni was on D.

Personally I blame the Celtics for the current state of the NBA. They started all this with their big 3. Bird rule doesn't matter anymore, because salaries are so high anyway that the difference doesn't matter. That's why the best player of his generation can handpick his teams whenever his current team runs out of championship contention. It's a smart move, but it doesn't make the NBA a very good product.

Now that Kawhi is out and Spurs don't have a chance, there are 4-7 meaningful games in the NBA season. That can't be good for the league in the long run. There's no competitive balance and no matter how much announcers scream when somebody from a mediocre team dunks during the regular season, those teams are just that: mediocre. Most of them aren't even that. It's great for sportcenter though, when every game seems to end up in the 120's. Maybe they can cut back on some more rules and we can get to the 150's. That would be entertaining. /s

EDIT: and I wouldn't badmouth Wade that much. LBJ singlehandedly robbed Wade from a Finals MVP trophy during his first year in Miami. That series and the one vs. Boston are something I will never understand. Granted, Mavs did a great job funneling LeBron to Chandler and made him shoot jumpers, but for the most part he was guarded By the corpses of Marion and Kidd. There's no explanation for that series. Almost as bizarre as Harden in game 6 this year.
 

watdaeff4

Member
Agreed. Although a much better argument would be a run from 1990-98, when Bulls had zero three game losing streaks while Jordan was in uniform. Same goes for Playoff record: Bulls never lost a series where they had home court advantage. That says a lot about consistency.

And people who bring up the fact that the Bulls still won games when Jordan retired: no kidding! Three time champion with several role players who were coming into their prime. How did that work out a year later? Pippen was on the verge of getting traded when MJ came back. Bulls were at .500. That team + Rodman won 72 games a year later.

And although Rodman was amazing vs. Seattle, he was below average both seasons vs. the Jazz. Bison Dele took most of his minutes the first year and they had to play Kukoc a lot the year after that. Pippen was hurt most of the series and they needed more scoring, no matter how terrible Toni was on D.

Personally I blame the Celtics for the current state of the NBA. They started all this with their big 3. Bird rule doesn't matter anymore, because salaries are so high anyway that the difference doesn't matter. That's why the best player of his generation can handpick his teams whenever his current team runs out of championship contention. It's a smart move, but it doesn't make the NBA a very good product.

Now that Kawhi is out and Spurs don't have a chance, there are 4-7 meaningful games in the NBA season. That can't be good for the league in the long run. There's no competitive balance and no matter how much announcers scream when somebody from a mediocre team dunks during the regular season, those teams are just that: mediocre. Most of them aren't even that. It's great for sportcenter though, when every game seems to end up in the 120's. Maybe they can cut back on some more rules and we can get to the 150's. That would be entertaining. /s

I actually have no problem when people say Jordan is still the greatest....even though i personally disagree. I just laugh when the only thing they use for their argument is the Finals records (or even your statements in the first paragraph) as that goes so much more beyond one player to trivialize it to that is flawed. I also mock them when they act like it's no contest. But otherwise it can be a good discussion that if looked at objectively can go either way

And yeah, the Celtics ruined it for us all. Agreed.

Regarding the competitive balance, frankly that has been out of balance for decades, it's been flawed for awhile. And those who say it was much better in the 90's either are too young to remember or have nostalgia glasses
 

Boogs31

Member
I actually have no problem when people say Jordan is still the greatest....even though i personally disagree. I just laugh when the only thing they use for their argument is the Finals records (or even your statements in the first paragraph) as that goes so much more beyond one player to trivialize it to that is flawed. I also mock them when they act like it's no contest. But otherwise it can be a good discussion that if looked at objectively can go either way

Yes, basketball is a team sport, but not giving individuals credit for team success is just silly. Unlike American Football or Soccer that have like 22 players on the field at the same time, basketball has just 10. The less players on the field/court, the more impact one player can have. Out of all the team sports, basketball is the best example of a game that can be dominated by a single player. That's why Jordan won 6 titles and why LeBron has been to 7 straight finals. If you just eliminate the whole team success from the discussion and it becomes just an argument about stats, there are a lot of players that come into the debate as greatest ever that shouldn't be there.
 

Kevtones

Member
LeBron is only the GOAT2 if he continues this to a title.


His 7th finals in a row.
Yeah some losses.
Nobody has had this type of impact on the game. MJ can't even touch it tbh and I grew up watching him.
 

watdaeff4

Member
Yes, basketball is a team sport, but not giving individuals credit for team success is just silly. Unlike American Football or Soccer that have like 22 players on the field at the same time, basketball has just 10. The less players on the field/court, the more impact one player can have. Out of all the team sports, basketball is the best example of a game that can be dominated by a single player. That's why Jordan won 6 titles and why LeBron has been to 7 straight finals. If you just eliminate the whole team success from the discussion and it becomes just an argument about stats, there are a lot of players that come into the debate as greatest ever that shouldn't be there.

Huh? But you just said

When have I used this argument? You keep bringing it up as if it helps your case but I never said that.

Um......ok

And just like so many other points you waffle around.

I mean if championships are such a vital component and stats aren't to be considered highly then Russell is GOAT and there is no question about it
 
I actually have no problem when people say Jordan is still the greatest....even though i personally disagree.

Regarding the competitive balance, frankly that has been out of balance for decades, it's been flawed for awhile. And those who say it was much better in the 90's either are too young to remember or have nostalgia glasses

I also disagree. That person would be Kareem. It's not even a contest if you include his whole career (NCAA and high school included). And Kareem's stats aren't even as good as they could be. Lakers lucked into Magic and then drafted really well, which lead to a superteam of sorts. But that wasn't free agency that did it. Same happened with the Celtics on the other side.

But if you don't think the Spurs, Knicks, Rockets, Blazers, Lakers, Cavs and Suns weren't championship contenders, you are out of your mind. Knicks had a legitimate chance of knocking out some great Bulls teams, LA lost their chance on injuries in the Finals and Blazers were stacked but also had Adelman. You think the Raptors can contend for anything? It's Spurs, Cavs and GS. Mostly GS now that Durant is there.

What I do know is it's hard to call someone a GOAT in a league where players are younger and less qualified to play in the NBA every year, and when they have to change the rules to accommondate this problem. Also consistency still matters, and that Mavs series will be the black mark on LBJ's record no matter how much you try to polish it. There's just no excuse for that. Especially in a league that discourages defense.
 

Boogs31

Member
Huh? But you just said
Um......ok

I never said that Jordan winning 6 straight finals makes him better than LeBron. I do, however, think that Jordan's 6 titles and LeBron's 7 straight finals are one part of many different reasons why they're the two greatest players ever.

And just like so many other points you waffle around.
I mean if championships are such a vital component and stats aren't to be considered highly then Russell is GOAT and there is no question about it

It's not such a black or white conversation that you make it out to be. Can't team success AND individual stats be valued collectively to determine who's better?
 
LeBron is only the GOAT2 if he continues this to a title.


His 7th finals in a row.
Yeah some losses.
Nobody has had this type of impact on the game. MJ can't even touch it tbh and I grew up watching him.

Hypothetical question: what if the Bulls got tired of losing and snatched 'Nique from Atlanta and Barkley from Philly in 87? How about when 'Nique got hurt and Barkley's body gave out, Jordan moved to Orlando with young Penny and Shaq?

Or do you think that the Cavs would've been to every Finals if LBJ stayed in Cleveland the whole time? If you do, I'll have some of what you are smoking.

But it usually helps your odds to make the Finals, when you team up with 2 all stars and then switch them to 2 younger all stars when you don't have a shot of winning anymore with your old team.
 

watdaeff4

Member
I also disagree. That person would be Kareem. It's not even a contest if you include his whole career (NCAA and high school included). And Kareem's stats aren't even as good as they could be. Lakers lucked into Magic and then drafted really well, which lead to a superteam of sorts. But that wasn't free agency that did it. Same happened with the Celtics on the other side.

But if you don't think the Spurs, Knicks, Rockets, Blazers, Lakers, Cavs and Suns weren't championship contenders, you are out of your mind. Knicks had a legitimate chance of knocking out some great Bulls teams, LA lost their chance on injuries in the Finals and Blazers were stacked but also had Adelman. You think the Raptors can contend for anything? It's Spurs, Cavs and GS. Mostly GS now that Durant is there.

What I do know is it's hard to call someone a GOAT in a league where players are younger and less qualified to play in the NBA every year, and when they have to change the rules to accommondate this problem. Also consistency still matters, and that Mavs series will be the black mark on LBJ's record no matter how much you try to polish it. There's just no excuse for that. Especially in a league that discourages defense.

I won't disagree on Kareem or any great before him due to not seeing them in their prime.

Regarding your 90's teams, the majority of those were not contenders year in-year out. In any given year you had only about one team in the East if that and one or two in the West that were any legitimate contender outside the Bulls
 
I won't disagree on Kareem or any great before him due to not seeing them in their prime.

Regarding your 90's teams, the majority of those were not contenders year in-year out.

Of course, no team is a contender every year. Cavs had a few terrible seasons due to injuries to Daughterty and Price. Hakeem was also out for 40+ games during one season with an eye injury. But when the Bulls first took the Cavs out, they had no business winning that series. Granted Daughterty was playing hurt then as well, but that team was stacked and the Bulls were not. Spurs won't even get mentioned, but Robinson had unreal stats and their starting lineup was incredible.

Still, every year many of those teams were contenders. Name another Eastern Conference contender right now. There aren't any. And again, to make all this possible, LBJ had to change teams twice juuust at the right time when his old team was aging and struggling with the cap. Makes him a great businessman, but that diminishes his Finals achievement at least in my eyes. Or if someone thinks LBJ is this great winner who can transform any team: drop him into the 91-92 Sixers and ask why Barkley isn't a "winner". Kareem and Magic together couldn't have saved that team. You can only do so much when you are playing with Charles Shackleford and Armon Gilliam.
 

ahoyle77

Member
This is great. Most people are arguing Jordan-Bron on here. While one is arguing Bron-Boogie? Lol.

Let LeBron finish and see where he is. I still remember the Dominique- Jordan arguments in school. Thats right, there was a time when people legitimately thought Nique was better.
No one thought Jordan was the GOAT until the second three-peat.
 
This is great. Most people are arguing Jordan-Bron on here. While one is arguing Bron-Boogie? Lol.

Let LeBron finish and see where he is. I still remember the Dominique- Jordan arguments in school. Thats right, there was a time when people legitimately thought Nique was better.
No one thought Jordan was the GOAT until the second three-peat.
That's because Jordan got routinely worked by the Pistons--- a team that actually played defense. He was garbage against them.
Lebron is better.
 

LionPride

Banned
As someone who has only been able to see highlights and full games here and there of Jordan, I think that LeBron as a player, not achievments and all that, is the better player over Jordan. Just as a pure basketball player. Not to discredit MJ at all, but LeBeon just appears to be better.
 

Caboose

Member
This discussion has really gone places.

image.php
 

Sorry you didn't watch the regular season and don't realize that the MVP is a REGULAR SEASON AWARD, not a "what player do you want most in the playoffs" or "who would be the best if they played balls out all season" award.
 
I still remember the Dominique- Jordan arguments in school. Thats right, there was a time when people legitimately thought Nique was better.
No one thought Jordan was the GOAT until the second three-peat.

Except the whole world? I don't know where you were when MJ retired after three titles, but CNN stopped programming to show the press conference, even in Europe. That was unprecedented then. Everyone was calling him the GOAT at that time. Besides pre-retirement Jordan was about 10 times better than the second three peat version. Two years off took a lot away from him from a physical standpoint. The guy murdering Portland and Phoenix was in a different league vs. the older MJ.

That's because Jordan got routinely worked by the Pistons--- a team that actually played defense. He was garbage against them.
Lebron is better.

Let's try to stick to the facts when we make silly little arguments, shall we? Or is this the Trump era of arguing where you just make a blanket statement without any facts behind them?

During the 1988-1989 season, Bulls somehow got to the conference finals by beating two superior teams, the Cavs and the Knicks. They stole games one and three, the 3rd game Jordan scored the last 18-20 points when they came from behind, including the floating bankshot over both Rodman and Isiah. He had 46 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds and 5 steals in that game. His only bad game was game 5 in Detroit where they got blown out. Jordan shot 4 for 8 from the field and finished with 18 points. He still averaged 30+ for that series against a team that was basically only guarding him.

The next year Pistons beat the Bulls in seven games and went on to defend their title. Every game was won by the home team. Yet the Bulls were on their way to stealing game 1, where Jordan had 30 points in the first half. At the end of the half MJ was basically thrown to the ground by Salley, Rodman and Laimbeer and hurt his hip, and was limping the rest of the way and didn't do a thing. Dumars went off right after that and Pistons took the game. In games 3 and 4 when Bulls came back into the series, Jordan had 47 and 42. His lone bad game was game 2, where he was still suffering from the hip injury.

But yes, obviously he sucked. You are correct about one thing: Pistons did play defense. Unlike the layup line D you see in the current league.
 

clemenx

Banned
Yeah, my edgelord comments extends beyond this season and even Lebron. Shaq only winning it once is another example of how dumb the voting is.

I think what it shows is how lame NBA regular season has always been for most teams.

There's no need for most top players to go all in like Westbrook did this year when they can secure a top seed while saving some gas in the tank. Shaq is like a million times better than his regular season numbers.
 
Except the whole world? I don't know where you were when MJ retired after three titles, but CNN stopped programming to show the press conference, even in Europe. That was unprecedented then. Everyone was calling him the GOAT at that time. Besides pre-retirement Jordan was about 10 times better than the second three peat version. Two years off took a lot away from him from a physical standpoint. The guy murdering Portland and Phoenix was in a different league vs. the older MJ.



Let's try to stick to the facts when we make silly little arguments, shall we? Or is this the Trump era of arguing where you just make a blanket statement without any facts behind them?

During the 1988-1989 season, Bulls somehow got to the conference finals by beating two superior teams, the Cavs and the Knicks. They stole games one and three, the 3rd game Jordan scored the last 18-20 points when they came from behind, including the floating bankshot over both Rodman and Isiah. He had 46 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds and 5 steals in that game. His only bad game was game 5 in Detroit where they got blown out. Jordan shot 4 for 8 from the field and finished with 18 points. He still averaged 30+ for that series against a team that was basically only guarding him.

The next year Pistons beat the Bulls in seven games and went on to defend their title. Every game was won by the home team. Yet the Bulls were on their way to stealing game 1, where Jordan had 30 points in the first half. At the end of the half MJ was basically thrown to the ground by Salley, Rodman and Laimbeer and hurt his hip, and was limping the rest of the way and didn't do a thing. Dumars went off right after that and Pistons took the game. In games 3 and 4 when Bulls came back into the series, Jordan had 47 and 42. His lone bad game was game 2, where he was still suffering from the hip injury.

But yes, obviously he sucked. You are correct about one thing: Pistons did play defense. Unlike the layup line D you see in the current league.
garbage relatively speaking. "garbage" Jordan is 99% better than the rest of the league.
You're only talking the playoffs. It's well known that the Pistons (Dumars) had Jordan's number for a few years.
 

firelogic

Member
Jordan all day, Bron has been playing in a joke league for 10 years.

I agree. He's a great player and definitely the best in the modern era of the NBA but he's still far off from MJ. I mean come on. When did Jordan's Bulls ever play a team as low caliber as the Toronto Raptors in an East Final? When were his Bulls ever in an NBA season where a team like the Raptors were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East? The NBA today is a total joke! Last year the only team that had any right to be in the playoffs from the EC was Cleveland. No one else from the East had any right to be playing in the post-season.
 

offtopic

He measures in centimeters
Is the internet going to melt in tears and anger if the warriors sweep the cavs by an average of 15? I need to know now I so I can prepare.
 

offtopic

He measures in centimeters
I agree. He's a great player and definitely the best in the modern era of the NBA but he's still far off from MJ. I mean come on. When did Jordan's Bulls ever play a team as low caliber as the Toronto Raptors in an East Final? When were his Bulls ever in an NBA season where a team like the Raptors were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East? The NBA today is a total joke! Last year the only team that had any right to be in the playoffs from the EC was Cleveland. No one else from the East had any right to be playing in the post-season.

You misspelled "Celtics".

Yeah, East is absolute trash and I will continue to call them junior varsity until there is evidence to the contrary.
 

Boogs31

Member
That's because Jordan got routinely worked by the Pistons--- a team that actually played defense. He was garbage against them.
Lebron is better.

Saying he was garbage against the Pistons is being incredibly naive. Was MJ garbage against the 86 Celtics when they got swept despite him putting up 50? He had an incredibly weak supporting cast in the 80's and he still pushed some of the greatest teams of all time to the brink. Those Bad Boy Piston teams were fantastic. Losing to them with no help is not anything to be ashamed of.
 

theWB27

Member
No base works harder than Jordan's to prove the fallacy he's the greatest ever.

As cocky as mj is i take his word when he scoffs at that notion. Takes nothing away from his belief he'd kick everyone of their asses though.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Yeah, he coasted during the regular season.

He's got nothing left to prove at this point besides trying to win a few more rings.

He's the best player in the league and everyone knows it.
 

Tall4Life

Member
West is actually competitive. Warriors, a 73 win team last year that added former MVP Kevin Durant was getting their ass whooped by 20 until they decided to injure this season's real MVP, Kawhi.

East is trash and LeBron gets 3 byes.

They had what, like a 15 win streak later in the regular season? They lost quite a bit early because they were still trying to figure out how to work Durant in their lineup and what the roles of Draymond, Klay, and Steph should be with him. You gotta work that shit out from trial and error before you're at your full potential again. That's also why plopping in someone like Butler now to the Celtics wouldn't have made much of a difference for this post season.

And besides, phenomenal teams like the Dubs still lose games in a series. Even last year, their 73 win team with the unanimous MVP was down 3-1 to the Thunder in the WCF.
 
You misspelled "Celtics".

Yeah, East is absolute trash and I will continue to call them junior varsity until there is evidence to the contrary.

This.

Even this years injured ass grizzlies are as good as any non Lebron east team since the big 3 celtics last run.

Hell the spurs without kawhi are probably better than the celtics raps wizards.
 

Sanjuro

Member
West is actually competitive. Warriors, a 73 win team last year that added former MVP Kevin Durant was getting their ass whooped by 20 until they decided to injure this season's real MVP, Kawhi.

East is trash and LeBron gets 3 byes.

Spurs still shouldn't have lost that game, with or without Leonard.

This is a two team league.
 
West is actually competitive. Warriors, a 73 win team last year that added former MVP Kevin Durant was getting their ass whooped by 20 until they decided to injure this season's real MVP, Kawhi.

East is trash and LeBron gets 3 byes.

Wait, the West is competitive because, in the Conference Finals, it actually looked like GS was running the risk of losing a game?

The West was competitive when Durant was in OKC and when SA had even an aging Duncan. It's not so competitive anymore.

I'm not sure that Portland/Utah/San Antonio w/o Parker/Leonard is any better opposition than Indy/Toronto/Boston, tbh.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
LeBron had an outstanding year.. check his stats.

On a team that has other stars he still put that up.

The only good argument I'll listen to is Harden, Westbrook padded his stats on purpose all season.
 
No one thought Jordan was the GOAT until the second three-peat.

Incorrect. MJ was not only getting 'GOAT" talk at the end of the first 3peat, he was also getting GOAT talk BEFORE he won a title. I remember the news articles from that era well. In retrospect, especially since the GOAT conversation now involves ring counting, being crowned GOAT without tiles was premature, but that gives you an idea of the artistry MJ was exhibiting pre-championships. People were hesitant to put him above Magic or Bird but seem to ignore who MJ was running with between 85 and 90. Pippen wasn't a legit championship sidekick till 91. In the 80s you more or less needed 3 hall of famers on your team to even be in contention for a title.
 
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