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[ItWasMeantToBe19]

There will be spoilers for FF7 obviously...



I'm not just talking about Aerith's death. There's some incredibly bold shots and ideas at the end of disc 1 that are extremely problematic and shocking. I want to talk about Cloud's multiple murder attempts of Aerith.

The theme of FF7 is fairly straight forward: Be yourself, you're good enough. If you pretend to be someone else, you can be manipulated by others. Cloud's shame at failing to advance in the army and his inability to prevent the slaughter of his town has caused such mental despair that his brain is pretending to be his more heroic co-worker. Cloud eventually becomes confused at who he is and Jenova eventually manages to convince Cloud into believing Cloud is a simple clone.

Cloud has Jenova cells in his body due to Shinra experiments and this allows Jenova to exert some control over Cloud when Cloud's will is lacking. This leads to the two scenes that I want to talk about.

Near the end of Disc 1, it's revealed that Jenova wants something called the Black Materia which will summon a meteor to destroy the world. Cloud and the group rush to beat him/it/her to the spot and you end up with the Black Materia. The final point involves your robot buddy "sacrificing" himself. It's a ludicrous and funny scene which is played up hard for how false the drama is. The robot is replaced literally two minutes after its "death" and it's a fun and triumphant scene. Right after the scene, Cloud has the Black Materia and Jenova influences Cloud to assault Aerith and give away the Black Materia. So, then in a wide shot, Cloud begins assaulting and trying to murder Aerith.

https://youtu.be/0a_CBGSQ2BU?t=11m47s

It's a brutal and masterfully directed scene. Cloud had been having a mental breakdown throughout the level, but it looks like he's out of the woods for now and you have levity after some fairly dark story sequences. And then the game gets impossibly dark and violent. The far away shot manages to add to the surrealness of the assault.

In the next level, Jenova tries to convince Cloud to murder Aerith and Cloud actually lifts his sword to kill her, but Cloud manages to resist, leading Sephiroth to end up killing Aeirth instead. The scene is obviously remembered for Aerith's death, but the image of Cloud holding a giant sword over Aerith's head is shocking and is one of the most violent images I've seen in a game.

The scenes do a great job of demonstrating Cloud's total mental breakdown and how easy it is for him to be controlled while he lives his false life, but that's mostly all the scenes focus on. Cloud assaulting Aerith is used mostly just to advance Cloud's character arc which is obviously hugely problematic. The assault scene is also so violent in nature that I don't know if the game could keep a T rating if it keeps the assault in the game.

So, disc 1 ends in a highly problematic, but incredibly directed way that shows Cloud as a broken man and sets up Cloud hitting rock bottom and his redemption in disc 2. How should the remake treat these scenes? What did you think of them?

 

[LordKasual]

The way the game forces you to control cloud as he struggles to not kill Aerith is the type of stuff i really miss in Final Fantasy

 

[hydrophilic attack]

The way the game forces you to control cloud as he struggles to not kill Aerith is the type of stuff i really miss in Final Fantasy

yeah that is what really made that scene stick in my memory

 

[Star Orpheus]

What is exactly is problematic about the scene?

I also don't get your point about violence. Like yeah Cloud threading Aerith is a huge scene but it's hardly the worst act of violence in the game.

The dead Midgar Zolom, the bloody Shinra building lined with corpses, the plate falling, and Aerith's actuall death all strike me as being much worse in terms of violence.

I feel like I'm missing something.

As for the scene itself I feel it should be kept as is, it's one of the most striking scenes in the game and highly effective.

 

[EctoPrime]

I would imagine that Square retcons the Midgar church fall so that Cloud was killed and revived by the lifestream which allows him to partially resist Sephiroth.. Plus it inserts elements from Advent children.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Damn, I be forgetting shit. I thought Aeris died in Disc 2.

 

[Man God]

Honestly the first disc and a half of FF VII has some masterful storytelling, some of the best in the entire series...which they'll probably completely ruin in the remake. That's why I'd always prefer a remake with a nice new English script and touched up assets. Everything from the compilation of FF shows that they are going to fuck this up.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I would be absolutely shocked if they put that scene in with Cloud beating up Aerith, especially since it only happened if Aerith was in your party anyway, so alot of people probably dont even know its in the game.

 

[jotun?]

Aeris

 

[hydrophilic attack]

What is exactly is problematic about the scene?

I also don't get your point about violence. Like yeah Cloud threading Aerith is a huge scene but it's hardly the worst act of violence in the game.

The dead Midgar Zolom, the bloody Shinra building lined with corpses, the plate falling, and Aerith's actuall death all strike me as being much worse in terms of violence.

I feel like I'm missing something.

As for the scene itself I feel it should be kept as is, it's one of the most striking scenes in the game and highly effective.

The scene at the Temple of the Ancients has Cloud repeatedly punching Aeris for minutes. Surely, you see why such a scene would be problematic?

 

[ethomaz]

This is an optional scene, no?

BTW I will shocked and happy if they didn't fuck with the remake.

 

[Star Orpheus]

The scene at the Temple of the Ancients has Cloud repeatedly punching Aeris for minutes. Surely, you see why such a scene would be problematic?

Ok yeah sorry was glancing through and thought it was about the City of the Ancients scene.

Sorry I honestly forgot about that scene. That is a bit trickier. I really have no idea what to do for that one in particular. Would having Cloud hallucinate attacking her work or would that still cause trouble you think?

 

[saturnine]

I don't see how these scenes are problematic. After the black materia scene, Cloud is absolutely horrified and terrified of himself. There's even a scene where he clearly tells the party to be wary of him because he knows he's losing control (though I don't remember if it takes place before or after the death of Aeris).

The only problematic element of this part of the game is how the hell Aeris managed to go all the way to the city of the ancients.

edit/

In fact, I'd argue that it's actually a very important scene in the story of the game. It's the first big crack that starts the process of Cloud losing his mind. Until then he had some... "episodes" that showed he wasn't completely alright, but completely losing control and beating the female love interest is absolutely shocking both for him and the player. He's the main character. He's the point of view we're supposed to trust. This scene both kickstarts his descent into hell and completely breaks the bond of trust we had previously established with him.

 

[bryanee]

Ok yeah sorry was glancing through and thought it was about the City of the Ancients scene.

Sorry I honestly forgot about that scene. That is a bit trickier. I really have no idea what to do for that one in particular. Would having Cloud hallucinate attacking her work or would that still cause trouble you think?

Maybe just tone the violence down so hes not punching her for minutes.

 

[Keym]

Why didn't she move anyway? Did she want to die on purpose to talk directly to the planet or something?

 

[Star Orpheus]

Why didn't she move anyway? Did she want to die on purpose to talk directly to the planet or something?

I thinks she's just deep in prayer. I swear I read somewhere once that Aerith had no intention of dying when she left to pray for Holy.

 

[orochi91]

Maaaaaaaan

I remember watching a live stream of a couple playing FF7 for the first time.

When they reached that Temple scene, the girlfriend literally yelled out "Holy shit is he hitting her?!".

In all these years, I had completely forgotten that Cloud was actually beating up Aerith in that scene, lol

And he kept assaulting her for a while too.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Having played Nier: Automata recently. That game has given the same sense of horror and shock that this game did back as a young teen. The contrast of almost senseless violence against this pacifist like character.

Cloud losing his mind seems to be another parallel here if you've played Nier. Its a surprisingly effective hook when most protagnists are written as totally competent hero's.

 

[Lindsay]

I would be absolutely shocked if they put that scene in with Cloud beating up Aerith, especially since it only happened if Aerith was in your party anyway, so alot of people probably dont even know its in the game.

This is an optional scene, no?

Aeris is always in the party during the Temple of the Ancients segment. Everyone who played up to that point saw this scene o.o

The scene at the Temple of the Ancients has Cloud repeatedly punching Aeris for minutes. Surely, you see why such a scene would be problematic?

Nopes! It shows how messed up Cloud is and how Sephiroth/Jenova has control over him. In the very next scenes we see him back to normal and extremely regretful and afraid of himself. Its basically what kicks off the "Clouds not right" arc after hours of hinting and buildup. Him simply handing over the Black Materia and that being the end of the scene wouldn't be half as dramatic. Plus whichever third party member is along at the time goes down there and knocks Cloud the heck out for beating on Aeris which is always refreshing!

I thinks she's just deep in prayer. I swear I read somewhere once that Aerith had no intention of dying when she left to pray for Holy.

Yeah thats right. She basically said "I'ma stop Seph, bbl". Aeris didn't go there to die, she went there to do her thing with the White Materia and rejoin the party afterwards!

 

[Turin]

If it was my call, I'd omit the beating scene.

 

[..pakbeka..]

We'll be lucky if the first part of the remake goes as far as Kalm, no way it gets all the way to the end of Disc 1

 

[True Fire]

I recently replayed FFVII, and I realized that ending after Aerith is a pretty bad idea. The game hits a climax with the "Reunion" and that should be the end of Part 2.

Part 3 should start off with Tifa, for dramatic effect.

 

[ZenTzen]

It should all stay the same way in the remake as it was in the original, theres nothing problematic in that scene at the temple of the ancients, and as it was pointed out that scene was to show how seph had a hold of cloud and showing how messed up he his, which is then followed up by how regreful cloud is, even when its not his fault

 

[Ailike]

What a heavy and well considered thread.


Oh well. Time for some snowboarding!!

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

We'll be lucky if the first part of the remake goes as far as Kalm, no way it gets all the way to the end of Disc 1

I mean, sure. But this part will eventually be covered.

Part 1: Midgar
Part 2: Chasing Sephiroth until the Jenova reunion
Part 3: Post Jenova reunion and end?

 

[LordKasual]

There are scenes with people being outright murdered enmasse in FF7....Towards the beginning of the game you're following a massive trail of blood, and it ends with Sephiroth's sword in a guy's back

what exactly makes cloud beating up Aerith an over-the-top scene, when everything about the act makes perfect sense in context of the story and Cloud's affliction???

I guess they should just remove Aerith's death scene from the game too??????????????

Aeris

Has always sounded better

 

[adamsapple]

Aeris

Aerith.

Also, I know it's too much to ask for but a part of ms e wishes it's possible to save Aerith this time around. The worst part of FFVII was realizing how the next town you visit after Aerith dies is the one which has information on her upbringing and parentage. I want Aerith to see all that

 

[xxracerxx]

Kill Tifa instead.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I would much rather have more scenes reflecting on how Aerith felt also than removing it from the game.

It's obviously one of the most important and best parts of the game and it would be hard to remove.

It's just a moment of extreme intimate violence which is very different from other forms of violence usually in video games.

 

[True Fire]

The scene can be done tastefully. Just have him shove her into a wall or something.

I'm mostly looking forward to the dream sequence where she leaves though. God was that devastating. It was obvious that she knew was a goner, but she was ten steps ahead of Sephiroth.

 

[LordKasual]

Kill Tifa instead.

Since everyone knows Aerith is supposed to die, this would probably succeed in recreating the shock of Aerith's death, since everyone already knows its going to happen

Although it really makes no sense for Sephiroth/Jenova to have a killboner for Tifa, she's not an Ancient

The scene can be done tastefully. Just have him shove her into a wall or something.

not as telling

Cloud at this point in the game has just been getting increasingly creepy, and this scene (giving away the ultimate weapon to his nemesis, assaulting his love interest) that made it really obvious that he's a nutcase.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Since everyone knows Aerith is supposed to die, this would probably succeed in recreating the shock of Aerith's death, since everyone already knows its going to happen

Although it really makes no sense for Sephiroth/Jenova to have a killboner for Tifa, she's not an Ancient

Tifa could shove Aerith out of the way...

 

[Lindsay]

Also, I know it's too much to ask for but a part of ms e wishes it's possible to save Aerith this time around. The worst part of FFVII was realizing how the next town you visit after Aerith dies is the one which has information on her upbringing and parentage. I want Aerith to see all that

That would kill the mood of those optional scenes bigtime.

Kill Tifa instead.

Kill nobody! Can't fakeout kill a toy/robot/gambling/fortune telling machine and then kill somebody for reals!

Heck, they need ta make it so at the end the party sympathizes and understands Sephiroth and how he was tragic and just trying to help out in his own way!

 

[ZenTzen]

I want all the dreary and violent moments to stay the same, but more than that, i want the upbeat, quirky and strange moments that are in the original

 

[Willenium]

What a heavy and well considered thread.


Oh well. Time for some snowboarding!!

XD lol, FF7 had these weird mood swings multiple times.

-Cait Sith 2 popping up like a cartoon character as Cloud is freaking out and punching Aeris
-Snowboarding pretty much right after Aeris dies
-Chocobo racing right after the Dyne scenes
-Basically the entire scene in the haunted hotel at Gold Saucer

 

[LordKasual]

Tifa could shove Aerith out of the way...

well then we just lose both Aerith AND Tifa

XD lol, FF7 had these weird mood swings multiple times.

-Cait Sith 2 popping up like a cartoon character as Cloud is freaking out and punching Aeris
-Snowboarding pretty much right after Aeris dies
-Chocobo racing right after the Dyne scenes
-Basically the entire scene in the haunted hotel at Gold Saucer

FF7 represents the golden era of RPGs for me.

It's a game that aspired to tell a great story through visuals and cinematics, but stayed 100% true to the fact that at the end of the day....it's still a videogame

That's something that I don't think is really going to coming back


Like, Yuffie for instance. I just can't see FF7 Remake having the same level of freedom that the original FF7 did when it came to her 4th wall breaking introduction.

 

[Darksol]

After FFXV I have no faith in SE to not fuck everything up.

 

[Shadow780]

Kill Tifa instead.

 

[Khrno]

The best way would be to kill Cloud being all heroic and shit, that way way Aerith becomes the heroine of the game and fixes what is one of the shittiest 2/3s of a FF game.

Yeah, I hope they kill Cloud this time around.

 

[B.K.]

They broke the canon once with Last Order. They should do it again and let Aerith live.

 

[BlueTsunami]

After FFXV I have no faith in SE to not fuck everything up.

They certainly have come off as as a company who won't take those sort of narrative risks anymore when coming from in house.

 

[Magnus]

I don't even remember this assault scene. It's been way too long since I last played the game.

 

[ponpo]

You already said how effective it was, why would they remove such a scene?

Obviously in more realistic visuals, they don't need to have some violent scene of Cloud beating her and zooming in on her face or whatever you think would happen. There are a million ways to portray Cloud being threatening without descending into uncomfortable levels of violent footage.

 

[UncleSporky]

Wait, where the heck is Cloud assaulting/beating Aeris? Your youtube link doesn't go to that scene, it goes to Cait Sith doing a fortune reading.

The part where they're way at the bottom of the crater and it's playing some sound effects as you watch about 10x10 pixels moving around? Is that it? It seems more like Cloud asking "what have I done, what have I done," as himself, uncontrolled, but distressed. He could be pounding at the ground, for all we can see, or possibly hitting her in a plaintive/pleading way as some dramatic characters do when distraught. I get zero impression that he's "trying to kill her." Aeris says nothing like "stop, you're hurting me," she doesn't act physically distressed in any way, in that scene she's just trying to comfort him.

I mean likewise there's a part in FF9 where Garnet beats on Zidane a bit too in a similar display of extreme emotion, and she's clearly not trying to kill him.

EDIT: Yeah he's totally either hitting the ground in front of him, his own head, or inexplicably Aeris's feet...?

 

[oon]

I'm not sure there's any way to pull it off. With more realistic graphics comes the expectation that the events that follow are similarly believable. Cloud should be locked up and the rest of the party could continue on without him - he's a tremendous liability if he could assault a woman at any moment. It's not really dealt with appropriately in-game and the player might not really notice since it's a bunch of blocky low-detail polygons (I'm not saying that negates how horrible his actions were, it just might not resonate with the player).

If it were a realistic cutscene, I'm not how they can write around the rest of the gang not leaving him in Gongaga - at the very least, they should be treating him with significantly more suspicion and disgust than they do in the original game, where they shower him with phrases like "I believe in you!" and "Even if you do go nuts when you see Sephiroth again...if it happens, it happens" - as if these were appropriate responses to a guy who assaulted Aerith for a few minutes. They could still write it so they could extend their sympathy to someone who clearly has some form of mental illness or fractured psyche, but he's still first and foremost the perpetrator of a random act of violence.

 

[Galactic Barret]

Aerith (I prefer Aeris, but Aerith is official so whatever) knew she would be dying. Its why she left alone to the City of The Ancients.

As for Cloud pummeling her, make it so Barret intervenes early. Cloud pushes her down, grabs his head, both Barret and Tifa jump in between. Tifa holds Cloud back and Barret is standing in front of Aerith threatening him in typical Barret fashion.

Or, you could just play the scene as intended, no blood. Speaking of violence against Aerith, I feel the scene of the plate collapsing and Tseng slapping the shit out of Aerith is both out of character and worse. Tseng is totally in control of himself whereas Cloud is having a mental breakdown.

I'm not sure there's any way to pull it off. With more realistic graphics comes the expectation that the events that follow are similarly believable. Cloud should be locked up and the rest of the party could continue on without him - he's a tremendous liability if he could assault a woman at any moment. It's not really dealt with appropriately in-game and the player might not really notice since it's a bunch of blocky low-detail polygons (I'm not saying that negates how horrible his actions were, it just might not resonate with the player).

If it were a realistic cutscene, I'm not how they can write around the rest of the gang not leaving him in Gongaga - at the very least, they should be treating him with significantly more suspicion and disgust than they do in the original game, where they shower him with phrases like "I believe in you!" and "Even if you do go nuts when you see Sephiroth again...if it happens, it happens" - as if these were appropriate responses to a guy who assaulted Aerith for a few minutes. They could still write it so they could extend their sympathy to someone who clearly has some form of mental illness or fractured psyche, but he's still first and foremost the perpetrator of a random act of violence.

The entire reason the party is pursuing Sephiroth at all is solely because of Cloud. Barret is content that Shinra is finished once President Shinra is killed. Even ignoring that, I don't believe Cloud to be a serious threat in that state. He had the same Mako exposure as a SOLDIER candidate. When he is freaking out, he is less than 100% obviously. That, and the cast of characters aren't exactly damsels in distress. By that point, Aerith had fully unlock her connection to the planet as well as overcame consecutive boss battle against dragons and anthropomorphic walls.

Honestly, besides my own personally desire to have the game stay as faithful to the original source material as possible, I feel it does a disservice to portray her as a character that would be so weak that she would truly be in danger from an unarmed, mentally conflicted Cloud. I expect Barret to be the most willing to leave him behind, unforgiven.

 

[Vicetrailia]

You already said how effective it was, why would they remove such a scene?

Obviously in more realistic visuals, they don't need to have some violent scene of Cloud beating her and zooming in on her face or whatever you think would happen. There are a million ways to portray Cloud being threatening without descending into uncomfortable levels of violent footage.

In typical anime fashion he would suddenly punch her once in the stomach, she'd fall down sitting up, and then the following scene would begin.

 

[Giever]

That scene just looks like Cloud shoves Aerith once and then gets on his knees and starts flailing around or pounding the ground or shaking Aerith or something because he felt bad that he lost it and knocked her down. It doesn't seem like he's pummeling on her at all.

 

[UncleSporky]

That scene just looks like Cloud shoves Aerith once and then gets on his knees and starts flailing around or pounding the ground or shaking Aerith or something because he felt bad that he lost it and knocked her down. It doesn't seem like he's pummeling on her at all.

Exactly. If he was hurting her she would've made SOME sort of noise or exclamation. Instead she just answers his question and says he hasn't done anything, and it's not his fault.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I think at this rate Aerith will die in part 3 of the remake