Didn't see a thread for this excellent look at the mistake that was Pocahontas, so I decided to make one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ARX0-AylFI
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Lindsay Ellis: Pocahontas Was a Mistake, and Here's Why!
- Thread starter CazTGG
- Start date
It was a product of it's time I think. So, I give it a little slack for that. But not so much as to not fault Disney for being lazy and not choosing a less...complicated story. Mulan was the same way. The original Mulan story was much more gnarly, but at the time, I was happy to see an Asian Disney story anyway. (And no, Lion King/Whateverthefuck anime it ripped off doesn't count. People, not animals.)
lightskintwin
Banned
I remember the outrage back then. You just didn't have social media so it was an easy issue for Disney to ignore.
Mr. Smiley
Member
Damn good talk about cultural appropriation here
SporeCrawler
Member
ferngully was better
It did have rap, so I guess you're right
Yup. Eyebrows were very much raised at the time. The movie also brought their streak of critical/commercial animation hits to a screeching halt and began a way more mediocre period.
BlackGoku03
Member
That dumb shit she said on twitter a few months ago still bother me, but I'll watch this later.
Context?
BlackGoku03
Member
She said she had it on good authority that Snyder hates his mother... A week after mothers day. I guess got into am argument after that and posted this https://mobile.twitter.com/DCcomicsfan020/status/866541825103941634/photo/1 (she deleted the tweet I think)
Then said it was just a dude thing: https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/866474872834281472
Basically just talking shit. I enjoy her analysis though.
metalslimer
Member
I like the analysis especially after watching Moana for the first time a few days ago and seeing how much better they told the Pocahontas story. I liked it as a kid but realized as I got older just how problematic that movie is in almost every aspect
Mr. Wonderful
Member
Which is too bad, as the soundtrack may have been Alan Menken's peak, and has stunning artwork/animation.
As others have said, it was also somewhat a product of its time. Something I often think about with "evergreen" films, where we might still expose our children to them as a classical work, yet the films might contain hurtful stereotypes, intolerance, etc.
Why do people double down on their stupid shit?
crazy monkey
Banned
So Avatar was a mistake too? I would agree about Avatar for sure.
entremet
Member
Fictional race thought?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The cartoon movie really shouldn't have been made.
This is some dumb shit. People enjoy the DCU, regardless of gender or race. I don't understand why they enjoy the actual universe, but they do.
This is some dumb shit. People enjoy the DCU, regardless of gender or race. I don't understand why they enjoy the actual universe, but they do.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
By awful run you mean the 90's Disney Renaissance?
Boogie9IGN
Member
Man I love Pocahontas ): It was the first movie I remember seeing in theaters as a kid
lightskintwin
Banned
Yeah, as with most things it had it's positives and negatives. I enjoyed Pocahontas and loved the song Colors of the Wind.
BlackGoku03
Member
Yeah, I'm guessing she has a lot to say about the movie. I'm glad my sister didn't like it that much.... I hated the music and even as a 9 yo kid learning about colonialism at the time, it just seemed too romanticized to me.
I don't know... Especially Lindsay. She seems like she has a good head on her shoulders.
I agree Pocahontas shouldn't have been made.
I don't know... Especially Lindsay. She seems like she has a good head on her shoulders.
I mean, I like it for what it is (good and bad, except nothing can excuse second half of SS), but I don't go and act like I'm Snyder's prophet. If you don't like the universe, cool. Shouldn't make dumb, personal jokes and them double down on it.
I agree Pocahontas shouldn't have been made.
teruterubozu
Member
Terence Malick's Pocahontas, or "The New World", isn't a whole lot better.
shawnbuddy
Member
Love her stuff and this topic is one I've wanted to see her tacklefor a while, so am hyped.
She's not wrong about any of that, though. Some Snyderverse fans are hypersensitive as fuck. It's probably just a product of loving something the entire rest of the world is screaming is idiotic dogshit, but it's there.
She's not wrong about any of that, though. Some Snyderverse fans are hypersensitive as fuck. It's probably just a product of loving something the entire rest of the world is screaming is idiotic dogshit, but it's there.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Ahh cultural appropriation. Always reminds me of travelling through the U.S. and stopping at Paddy O' Donnels Irish Pub.
On the menu was "Potatoes O'Brien"
Also "Juan O'Donnell's quesadillas"
Juan was touted as their Mexican cousin.
On the menu was "Potatoes O'Brien"
Also "Juan O'Donnell's quesadillas"
Juan was touted as their Mexican cousin.
It's crazy to think that this movie was supposed to be their big tentpole franchise to follow up on Beauty and the Beast's success. Can you imagine a world where development of The Lion King never gets off the ground and this is what we get as Disney's next film after four years of waiting?
EDIT - I keep forgetting Aladdin was after Beauty and the Beast for some reason.
EDIT - I keep forgetting Aladdin was after Beauty and the Beast for some reason.
Isn't it Little Mermaid/BB/Aladdin/Lion King then Pocohontas, where everything derails?
She was called out on it not just being white people who liked BvS, and went "shrug, just guys then." And then ignored women who replied.
Should've just taken the hit instead of trying to change the goalposts.
Wet Bloodfart
Banned
Love Lindsay. Her Mel Brooks video is fantastic.
SchrodingerC
Member
I still quite enjoy the music from Pocahontas, but then again most of the music from the Disney renaissance was spectacular.
Not sure you'd really call this analysis a hot take when Lindsay's right about the movie its problems.
Not sure you'd really call this analysis a hot take when Lindsay's right about the movie its problems.
VeryGooster
Banned
Will watch in a bit but I love Lindsay's takedowns of Disney stuff.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Yes.
Hunchback, Hercules and Mulan which iirc each performed worse than their predecessor and Tarzan which did significantly better than Pocahontas but still nowhere near the B&TB/Aladdin/Lion King highs.
I will defend Hunchback to the death though. There's a 10/10 movie in there buried beneath the gargoyle schlock.
Also Rescuers Down Under which was released between Little Mermaid and B&TB and got zero attention from the studio.
Between Pocahontas and Tangled, Tarzan and Lilo & Stitch were Disney's only unquestionably successful films.
shawnbuddy
Member
Still not wrong. She's not saying only guys like it, just that they are mostly the ones who activate bitchfest mode if you point out any flaw. From all existing evidence this is true.
Pocahontas is a frustrating film because, yes, the film just isn't very good...
But good grief are the visuals beyond belief for a hand-drawn film.
"Hellfire" alone justifies the whole film.
But good grief are the visuals beyond belief for a hand-drawn film.
Fast-forward past the Gargoyles and, yep, it's a masterpiece.
"Hellfire" alone justifies the whole film.
Wafflecakes
Member
Lindsay is amazing. Watching now.
At minimum Pocahontas has amazing music, which is probably why it has had some staying power.
At minimum Pocahontas has amazing music, which is probably why it has had some staying power.
shawnbuddy
Member
And good songs, too. Colors of the Wind is an all-time classic.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah the songs and visuals and Pocahontas are still amazing. Probably my favorite set of songs from that era. It and the little mermaid were my favorites growing up. It was a shock going back to Pocahontas a few years ago and realizing it's glaring issues
ZombiePlatypus
Member
It has stunning animation and music. I love those two aspects of it so goddamn much. The merits of those two points carry the film for me and make it something I love. Even with it's other glaring faults.
Flawed and problematic? Sure. A mistake? Hell no.
I recommend her video about Rent as well.
Rock And Roll
Member
Besides Colors of the Wind I thought it was kind of lacking in the musical department. I felt like Menken wasn't even trying. His work on Hunchback right after was incredible though, it's unfortunate how overlooked that movie is.
metalslimer
Member
As soon as the spiritual grandma thing happened I immediate started comparing them in my head. I liked Moana overall though even if it felt a little too straightforward. Zootopia was the better film for me even though Moana blasts it in the visual department