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[ThisGuy]

I get a good laugh from her in every one of her videos. What exactly don't you find funny?

Her delivery. And actually what she's saying. Its just not funny. Reminds me of those professors/instructors in college who make the attempt.

When the horns came on, and the images popped up for that one meme, it just seemed distracting to me. Found myself wanting to skip it, even though it was very brief.

But I really don't want to zero in too much on stating she's not funny, she keeps jokes infrequent, to her benefit. As I said, it was a good video, and she has real strengths. Kind of reminds me of John oliver in her way to zero in on the subject and keep you interested. That was not a short clip either.

 

[Cheerilee]

Is that real or just speculative? I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Real. Came from an interview with a former DisneyToon director, as an example of the sort of "challenges" Disney's direct-to-video department had to deal with on a constant basis back in the Eisner-era when "profit" was the singular goal.

 

[Slayven]

She reminds me of Janeane Garofalo before Janeane Garofalo went full 90s

 

[Mr-Joker]

All I remember from Pocahontas is liking the animal buddies and the fact that I watch it on my final day of P3 as I was moving to a new school after the summer holiday.

Also the video just reminded me how I really don't like the "Pretty Woman" song in Kal Ho Naa Ho.

She said she had it on good authority that Snyder hates his mother... A week after mothers day. I guess got into am argument after that and posted this https://mobile.twitter.com/DCcomicsfan020/status/866541825103941634/photo/1 (she deleted the tweet I think)

Then said it was just a dude thing: https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/866474872834281472

Basically just talking shit. I enjoy her analysis though.

Look I am all for calling out idiots if it's the case but I don't get why she felt the need to default to "all male,"

I had nothing to do that nonsense and yet she automatically boxing me with them purely on the basis of my gender.

I don't know how to feel about the fact that Pocahontas and Moana are that similar.

Think of it as them dusting off an old script that wasn't well done and learning from their mistake.

Though personally I thought the movie was alright but it was clear that I was not the target market and I am cool with that as I only watch it to take my little cousins.

I really like the movie, but I totally get why it's offensive. Peter Pan is similar with the bullshit Native American depictions.

Peter Pan is one of my favorite Disney movie and I used to love that song but I haven't watched the movie in years and the song very quickly fell out of favour when I found out how offensive it is.

The worse part is I think that Disney is trying to pretend nothing is wrong with the song as it's still in the DVD nor is there no warning that it might cause offence.

 

[Slayven]

I remember getting a bunch of those Pocahontas chocolate bars on clearence

 

[PerkeyMan]

GOAT-soundtrack, great animation and good characters. This plus swedish voice acting at the time was by far the best in the world = Great movie.

 

[Froyo Love]

I don't know how to feel about the fact that Pocahontas and Moana are that similar.

Some similar elements, some coming-of-age story commonalities, but a massive difference in that Pocahontas' story is completely bound up with Europeans, while Moana is not. Lindsay mentions this issue but I think understates its significance. A movie based on a historical incident is always going to carry a lot of baggage about how the culture of the filmmakers sees that incident at the time of the making, and when the historical incident is right in the thick of the violence and complexities of colonialism, a Disney take it on it was never going to age well even if the film itself had been a lot better. Moana being pre-European contact gives it far more breathing room to tell a story.

 

[Fancyarcher]

Good video. Pocahontas is probably the worst of the Disney Renaissance films, but it does feature great songs and animation of course. The issue, is that Disney's worst tendencies like silly sidekicks are cranked up to 10 while they're trying to tell a very serious, that and obviously the history is wrong just wrong.

Yes.

Hunchback, Hercules and Mulan which iirc each performed worse than their predecessor and Tarzan which did significantly better than Pocahontas but still nowhere near the B&TB/Aladdin/Lion King highs.

I will defend Hunchback to the death though. There's a 10/10 movie in there buried beneath the gargoyle schlock.

Also Rescuers Down Under which was released between Little Mermaid and B&TB and got zero attention from the studio.

Between Pocahontas and Tangled, Tarzan and Lilo & Stitch were Disney's only unquestionably successful films.

Mulan actually made more then Hercules, and I like all three films myself. Plus all of them sold very well on video.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Mulan actually made more then Hercules, and I like all three films myself. Plus all of them sold very well on video.

Yeah, just about every Disney movie sells well on home video. I remember Brother Bear, which did kind of... eh at the box office still managed to sell 5.5 million tapes/DVDs in its first month.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Potatoes O'Brien is actually a common dish in the United States, you can get it at most breakfast restaurants or buy it frozen at the grocery store.

Ha really? That is so fucked up.

What is it. I think don't we ordered it.

Also did you by chance mean Shawn O'Donnell's in the Seattle area? Because they have a "Juan O'Donnell's quesadilla" as well: http://www.shawnodonnells.com/Seattle/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Page-2-Jan17.jpg

Anyway Pocahontas is a pretty rough movie.

Haha man, yeah this is the one!

We went in there after giving up looking for the Wendy's which was indicated to be around there but didn't seem to exist.

Never did get a Wendy's in America.

The poor waitress didn't know what to make of 7 actual Irish guys talking shit and joking with her.
She could barely understand out accents.


Edit: Aha shit, I'd forgotten about Drunken Drumsticks!

 

[igordennis]

That was a fantastic video. I love Lindsay.

 

[Garlador]

It gave us this

......
so it was a mistake for that alone.

You know what's REALLY CRAZY?

The sequel is actually more historically accurate than the original film.

In the sequel, like real life, Pocahontas DOES go to England, does find out that John Smith is still alive while in England, and she does ultimately end up marrying John Rolfe while most believe her romance with John Smith was pure fiction (given their respective ages weren't really close).

It's a low, low threshold to cross, but... well, I still find that interesting.

 

[Suikoguy]

You know what's REALLY CRAZY?

The sequel is actually more historically accurate than the original film.

In the sequel, like real life, Pocahontas DOES go to England, does find out that John Smith is still alive while in England, and she does ultimately end up marrying John Rolfe while most believe her romance with John Smith was pure fiction (given their respective ages weren't really close).

It's a low, low threshold to cross, but... well, I still find that interesting.

Yeah, Nostalgia Critic did a video on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpvPUegjets&list=LL2BLaoD0Jc1C0HsrAZVfUOA&index=254

 

[LionPride]

I don't know how to feel about the fact that Pocahontas and Moana are that similar.

Moana is better and less offensive/fucking abysmal

 

[Aaron Strife]

You know what's REALLY CRAZY?

The sequel is actually more historically accurate than the original film.

In the sequel, like real life, Pocahontas DOES go to England, does find out that John Smith is still alive while in England, and she does ultimately end up marrying John Rolfe while most believe her romance with John Smith was pure fiction (given their respective ages weren't really close).

It's a low, low threshold to cross, but... well, I still find that interesting.

Honestly I don't find Pocahontas II much worse than the original. It certainly has its problems but most of the online bitching over it seems to be people who were enamoured with the Pocahontas/Smith romance in the original Disney film and mad that they ended up pairing her off with someone else. I always liked the joke with her guard trying to count the London population by marking a stick until he finally just whittles it down to nothing and gives up, and that actually happened.

Now Hunchback II, Cinderella II, those are some rotten bottom-of-the-barrel sequels. Little Mermaid II started the trend of sequels that shamelessly copy the original. "It's Ursula's evil sister! Smursula!"

 

[jman2050]

I have a soft spot for Return of Jafar and I will take that to my grave.

Jafar's villain song is hilarious greatness.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Ahh cultural appropriation. Always reminds me of travelling through the U.S. and stopping at Paddy O' Donnels Irish Pub.

On the menu was "Potatoes O'Brien"

Also "Juan O'Donnell's quesadillas"

Juan was touted as their Mexican cousin.

What if I were to tell you... the Irish and Mexicans celebrate their joined histories?

 

[D i Z]

Whew. That Dissection.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

This was really great.
Lindsay's long-form video essays are just fantastic, I'm always looking forward to them (especially the ones with social justice elements to them).
Also the stuff about cultural appropriation was super spot on.
It's honestly a bit of a bummer that a lot of useful academic, sociological terminology has been somewhat...warped by a lot of layman in the 2010s.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I have a soft spot for Return of Jafar and I will take that to my grave.

Jafar's villain song is hilarious greatness.

Return of Jafar is pretty blatant "the plot of the first one... again!" right down to the villain, but I'll give it a pass because it was the first one, it wasn't meant to be a movie (it was planned as a three-episode pilot for the TV series), and it actually gives some character growth for Iago.

King of Thieves is better though.

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

Was this the girl who was the Nostalgia Chick?

 

[Fuu]

This video is pretty great. I'm going to sub to her channel and watch other stuff by her.

 

[Emarv]

Stealth "Moana is good" video. I approve!

 

[Htown]

Was this the girl who was the Nostalgia Chick?

yep

 

[Loxley]

Was this the girl who was the Nostalgia Chick?

Yep.

 

[DrForester]

Lindsay's videos really are great.

Least Disney didn't screw up the way Star Trek did with Chakotay on Voyager. They had a "Native American Expert" write up his backstory, and it turned out the guy was a con-man posing as a Native American.

 

[JCHandsom]

Great video, really dig Lindsay's analysis videos. Her point about moving from outright controversy to mixed-bag makes me wonder if Disney will ever be capable of delivering something that is truly representative or empowering of other cultures. Her points about how Disney is a brand that ultimately wants, even needs, to sell theme park tickets and merchandise makes me think that it might not be possible. At the end of the day no matter what culture is being represented or story is being told there will always need to be an animal sidekick, or modern day/pop culture references, or a princess somewhere for it to be "Disney."

 

[blakep267]

Great video, really dig Lindsay's analysis videos. Her point about moving from outright controversy to mixed-bag makes me wonder if Disney will ever be capable of delivering something that is truly representative or empowering of other cultures. Her points about how Disney is a brand that ultimately wants, even needs, to sell theme park tickets and merchandise makes me think that it might not be possible. At the end of the day no matter what culture is being represented or story is being told there will always need to be an animal sidekick, or modern day/pop culture references, or a princess somewhere for it to be "Disney."

Given the nature of Disney, its not possible. Just like she mentioned in one of her videos where Walt Disney watches To Kill a Movkingbird and wished he could do something like that but can't.

Heck even the Star Wars anthologies which were supposed to be different formulas still end up being in brand

 

[Escape Goat]

Does Linds have a job in the industry or does she put her fancy film school degree to work doing youtubes?

 

[JCHandsom]

Does Linds have a job in the industry or does she put her fancy film school degree to work doing youtubes?

As much as she would loathe the description, she's a Youtuber.

 

[Seesaw15]

Does Linds have a job in the industry or does she put her fancy film school degree to work doing youtubes?

I think she said she dropped out of film school.

 

[JCHandsom]

I think she said she dropped out of film school.

She graduated this year from USC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_p6CiWVYAApREJ.jpg

 

[Dmax3901]

This was real good, subscribed.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Does Linds have a job in the industry or does she put her fancy film school degree to work doing youtubes?

She has said numerous times she puts her knowledge of film on Youtube so we don't have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to learn it in film school.

 

[Pepboy]

Another example of why the "people are more sensitive these days" narrative is bullshit. You just didn't have everyone's voices in your pocket before.

There was no outrage about this at release. I'm sure a scattered few complained but the general public had no issue with it.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

There was no outrage about this at release. I'm sure a scattered few complained but the general public had no issue with it.

A lot of people are saying otherwise.

 

[Branduil]

Honestly I don't find Pocahontas II much worse than the original. It certainly has its problems but most of the online bitching over it seems to be people who were enamoured with the Pocahontas/Smith romance in the original Disney film and mad that they ended up pairing her off with someone else. I always liked the joke with her guard trying to count the London population by marking a stick until he finally just whittles it down to nothing and gives up, and that actually happened.

Now Hunchback II, Cinderella II, those are some rotten bottom-of-the-barrel sequels. Little Mermaid II started the trend of sequels that shamelessly copy the original. "It's Ursula's evil sister! Smursula!"

OTOH, Cinderella III looks hilarious https://twitter.com/haarleyquin/status/882912279863463937

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

You know what's REALLY CRAZY?

The sequel is actually more historically accurate than the original film.

In the sequel, like real life, Pocahontas DOES go to England, does find out that John Smith is still alive while in England, and she does ultimately end up marrying John Rolfe while most believe her romance with John Smith was pure fiction (given their respective ages weren't really close).

It's a low, low threshold to cross, but... well, I still find that interesting.

Yeah, still can't stand it though.
Imo it makes stuff like Little Mermaid 2 and Mulan 2 look like masterpieces(didn't even know there was a Hunchback 2).

 

[Pepboy]

Great video, really dig Lindsay's analysis videos. Her point about moving from outright controversy to mixed-bag makes me wonder if Disney will ever be capable of delivering something that is truly representative or empowering of other cultures. Her points about how Disney is a brand that ultimately wants, even needs, to sell theme park tickets and merchandise makes me think that it might not be possible. At the end of the day no matter what culture is being represented or story is being told there will always need to be an animal sidekick, or modern day/pop culture references, or a princess somewhere for it to be "Disney."

If I were to guess, I think sidekicks probably have less to do with merchandise than what makes 3-5 year olds laugh. They are often too young to pick up on the story but love seeing the animals. Is there much in the way of chicken merchandise from Moana? Looking at toysrus, does not seem like it:


www.toysrus.com/products/moana-toys.jsp

The issue is ultimately Disney makes animated films for kids and families at large. Kids don't care much about empowering cultures, that doesn't sell tickets. I'm not even sure what adult films would fulfill that criterion, outside of indie films and documentaries.

Disney focuses instead on empowering individual characters who sometimes stand in for their culture. Still provides role models I think, and humanizes others.

 

[Big Baybee]

She makes good videos. I fucks with her.

 

[Pepboy]

A lot of people are saying otherwise.

Who? I only saw one person in this thread mention anything like that but maybe I missed it.

I suppose I was still a teen when the movie released, so perhaps it was being talked about in the newspapers or something? But never heard anyone mention anything about it in public. Mostly just praise for how beautiful colors of the wind was.

 

[TheBowen]

Great video, really dig Lindsay's analysis videos. Her point about moving from outright controversy to mixed-bag makes me wonder if Disney will ever be capable of delivering something that is truly representative or empowering of other cultures. Her points about how Disney is a brand that ultimately wants, even needs, to sell theme park tickets and merchandise makes me think that it might not be possible. At the end of the day no matter what culture is being represented or story is being told there will always need to be an animal sidekick, or modern day/pop culture references, or a princess somewhere for it to be "Disney."

CoCo seems to be Disney's attempt at that. Empowering mexican culture, which im excited for mainly to see how they use the artwork

It does have a animal sidekick however, but thats a given seeing as how popular those sidekicks almost always become

Will watch the pocahontas video in full when i wake up, been years since ive watched the film, but odd how similar moana is to it

 

[maruchan]

This was great. However I wish she would of talked more about brother bear. A lot of those mistakes from pochantas where fixed in the film. I know many people from native communities who liked brother bear, and show it to their kids..

 

[JCHandsom]

CoCo seems to be Disney's attempt at that. Empowering mexican culture, which im excited for mainly to see how they use the artwork

It does have a animal sidekick however, but thats a given seeing as how popular those sidekicks almost always become

Will watch the pocahontas video in full when i wake up, been years since ive watched the film, but odd how similar moana is to it

I'm fully expecting Coco to have a scene where the main character films himself singing on his guitar and uploading it to Not YouTube or something equivalent.

They had Maui make a Twitter joke; anything it possible, everything is permitted.

The issue is ultimately Disney makes animated films for kids and families at large. Kids don't care much about empowering cultures, that doesn't sell tickets. I'm not even sure what adult films would fulfill that criterion, outside of indie films and documentaries.

Disney focuses instead on empowering individual characters who sometimes stand in for their culture. Still provides role models I think, and humanizes others.

But the video points out that there are forces within Disney that stretch back to Walt that want to push for something deeper and even empowering. They wanted Pocahontas to get Best Picture, and even after it underwhelmed they kept making films revolving around native cultures. Disney has actually been very reflective on its own films; the Renaissance was itself a response to the earlier heyday of the 40s-50s films, and the current Tangled/Frozen/Moana trend is downright satirical of the Renaissance tropes. This consciousness clashes with the financial interests in maintaining The Brand, hence the mixed-bag comment. I'm curious to see if that clash is irreconcilable or if something empowering can be a big enough hit that it changes The Brand.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Who? I only saw one person in this thread mention anything like that but maybe I missed it.

I suppose I was still a teen when the movie released, so perhaps it was being talked about in the newspapers or something? But never heard anyone mention anything about it in public. Mostly just praise for how beautiful colors of the wind was.

Depends on who you mean by "who". When Aladdin came out, many Arab groups decried parts of the movie, particularly the American-Arab Anti-Disccrimination Committee, but whatever or not that gets picked up on your local news or not is not really their fault. And, finally, Disney relented to at least one of their pleas which was to change a lyric in the opening song, which is why it now goes

"Where the sand is immense and the heat is intense" and not the original lyrics "where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face"....

With Pocahontas, I don't know. I studied a lot of Muslim portrayal in film, so I'm more well versed in the outcry against Aladdin at the time.

Edit: And, I guess reading your initial post, of course the general audience didn't care. The general audience today doesn't care about this stuff for the most part. That doesn't mean that those directly effected by bad portrayals don't care. They do. They put out statements, try to do boycotts, and influence their opinion. Whether or not the news ever picks it up can't be hung directly on them.

 

[Seesaw15]

She graduated this year from USC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_p6CiWVYAApREJ.jpg

Cool I didn't know that. I've been going through her nostalgia chick reviews and she mentioned that she had dropped out of NYU in one of her old videos.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

OTOH, Cinderella III looks hilarious https://twitter.com/haarleyquin/status/882912279863463937

Cinderella 3 is awesome.

Not a sentence I ever expected saying, but here we are.

 

[Pepboy]

Who? I only saw one person in this thread mention anything like that but maybe I missed it.

I suppose I was still a teen when the movie released, so perhaps it was being talked about in the newspapers or something? But never heard anyone mention anything about it in public. Mostly just praise for how beautiful colors of the wind was.

Just did a bit of digging on Rotten Tomatoes and this 1995 review from the SF Chronicle stands out:

"This cleverness balances the movie's otherwise overwhelming political correctness. Reflecting today's embarrassment at the treatment of early Native Americans, the indigenous people are shown to live in a sophisticated, well-organized social structure (...)"

www.sfgate.com/news/article/P-C-Pocahontas-3142931.php

That is, by 1995 standards, seems like the outrage was that Pocahontas was TOO politically correct, even by a traditionally left leaning publication.

Here's another entertainment weekly review actually from 1995:

Since it’s hard to feel much amorous heat passing between drawn characters, the story, secondhand as it is (the climactic march to battle is nearly a shot-for-shot retread of the face-off between the Jets and the Sharks), is reduced to didactic liberal fable: Indians aren’t really ”savages,” love transcends skin color, etc

ew.com/article/1995/06/16/pocahontas-4/

Again, seems the "outrage" is closer to the film being too politically correct. I'm not sure if this is the outrage others were talking about? I assumed they meant outrage toward the depiction of native Americans and cultural appropriation / historical inaccuracies.

Its hard to find reviews actually still up since 1995, but if you see more talking about this outrage I'd love to see them.

 

[Pepboy]

Depends on who you mean by "who". When Aladdin came out, many Arab groups decried parts of the movie, particularly the American-Arab Anti-Disccrimination Committee, but whatever or not that gets picked up on your local news or not is not really their fault. And, finally, Disney relented to at least one of their pleas which was to change a lyric in the opening song, which is why it now goes

"Where the sand is immense and the heat is intense" and not the original lyrics "where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face"....

With Pocahontas, I don't know. I studied a lot of Muslim portrayal in film, so I'm more well versed in the outcry against Aladdin at the time.

Edit: And, I guess reading your initial post, of course the general audience didn't care. The general audience today doesn't care about this stuff for the most part. That doesn't mean that those directly effected by bad portrayals don't care. They do. They put out statements, try to do boycotts, and influence their opinion. Whether or not the news ever picks it up can't be hung directly on them.

Oh sorry, yes I was referring to the general public. I'm sure interest groups and cultural associations had mixed or negative reception to the films.

I was mostly responding to the claim that there was a (general) outrage at the time about the film or its depictions, whereas everything I've found so far suggests in 1995 people were outraged over how "politically correct" the film was (by 1995 standards).

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Pepboy, people cared about this stuff back then, but maybe not in mainstream movie reviews. You're going to have to go digging into scholarly stuff since the media, today and especially back then, didn't care about this stuff.

Here's something from the LA Times from back then:

Our fascination with this Indian princess image was rightfully dubbed the "Pocahontas Perplex" by Rayna Green, director of the American Indian program at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. Trapped within a patriarchal definition, Hollywood's Indian women are rarely shown as having anything more important in life than their male relationships.

From the Powhatan Nation:

In 1995, Roy Disney decided to release an animated movie about a Powhatan woman known as "Pocahontas". In answer to a complaint by the Powhatan Nation, he claims the film is "responsible, accurate, and respectful."

We of the Powhatan Nation disagree. The film distorts history beyond recognition. Our offers to assist Disney with cultural and historical accuracy were rejected. Our efforts urging him to reconsider his misguided mission were spurred.

There's also feminist critiques from back in the day discussing her physique, her hair, and so on. If I can find the actual articles, I'll update my post.

edit: Saw your reply.

edit 2: Always useful to search for these types of things on Google Scholar, not regular google!