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[Prax]

I liked Pocahontas mostly (besides some animal sidekickisms). I am.. part of the problem!
I also didn't see her as very sexualized when I was younger though. I think I mistook it as strong and confidently poised beauty, which many other previous Disney princesses lacked lol.

I think back then, I did have a feeling that it was very you know.. Disney-fied in how happy things were, but I didn't expect much differently either. I was honestly pleasantly surprised by the "savages" song (In my head I was like "haha the natives' spirits told them the truth and the white people were more in the wrong"..) So I dunno! I guess my lens in viewing was different from other people.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I was more mixed about Mulan. A lot of people list it as their fave Disney movie and I can see why (fighter heroine), but because I am closer to that culture, there's just so many little things that feel tropey and wrong that it bothers me a little more. -- Also I guess I liked the music more in Pocahontas than some of Mulan's songs.

 

[Garlador]

I liked Pocahontas mostly (besides some animal sidekickisms). I am.. part of the problem!
I also didn't see her as very sexualized when I was younger though. I think I mistook it as strong and confidently poised beauty, which many other previous Disney princesses lacked lol.

I think back then, I did have a feeling that it was very you know.. Disney-fied in how happy things were, but I didn't expect much differently either. I was honestly pleasantly surprised by the "savages" song (In my head I was like "haha the natives' spirits told them the truth and the white people were more in the wrong"..) So I dunno! I guess my lens in viewing was different from other people.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I was more mixed about Mulan. A lot of people list it as their fave Disney movie and I can see why (fighter heroine), but because I am closer to that culture, there's just so many little things that feel tropey and wrong that it bothers me a little more. -- Also I guess I liked the music more in Pocahontas than some of Mulan's songs.

Pocahontas is just so... WEIRD... for them to do, but I get you. I'm a Native American and seeing the film with my grandmother was not very enjoyable. While I can't fully understand how another culture might view something, it just felt like our culture was utterly managed and, while all movies are commercial properties, this film felt exceptionally exploitative and misguided.

I can definitely see the stereotyping shorthand in Mulan as well, especially in the opening scenes where they beat you over the head with "Chinese culture, amiright?" references and hodgepodge culture jokes.

Pocahontas would still probably bug me more because its message is far less clear and, more importantly, far less substantiated by actual history. Mulan's historical accuracy is more folklore, while Pocahontas is person we have far more historical information about. We know her life, her journey, her beliefs, her marriage, her death. We know what our people did to hers. We know the story for her and her tribe does NOT have a happy ending, and Disney parades this cartoon movie in front of millions as a gaudy feel-good story about overcoming adversity and intolerance when almost nothing in the film actually happened, and the HISTORICAL truth was far uglier and has aftershocks that still resonate in Native American society to this very day.

It's like that awful feel-good Titanic cartoon movie where nobody dies. It's shying away from actual tragedy because, you know, it's just kid's entertainment, right?

I have similar but less-extreme feelings about a film like Anastasia, which I legitimately enjoy, despite acknowledging that it's built on the urban legend that Anastasia survived when modern forensic science pretty much has concluded she did not. It's painting a rainbow over another tragedy and boiling political and social moral complexities down to basic black-and-white, good-vs-evil adventures.

Pocahontas is fascinating in its missteps, galling in its lack of self-awareness, and a microcosm into the way disconnected white businessmen feel about making films about minority cultures on their terms by their rules.

Lindsey could do a video on Jeffrey Katzenberg alone. One of my instructors in college was an animator on Rescues Down Under and it was Katzenberg who came in and insisted the lead boy - who was going to be an Australian Aboriginal boy - be altered into the Aryan kid we got in the end, against all the story-teller and animators' wishes.

I am glad, at the very least, to see Disney getting better at this.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

What if I were to tell you... the Irish and Mexicans celebrate their joined histories?

Hah, now this one I knew.

Every year, some random mexicans post about it on the Irish Subreddit!

 

[JCHandsom]

What if I were to tell you... the Irish and Mexicans celebrate their joined histories?

Wow, TIL

 

[Enduin]

Wow, TIL

There's even a movie!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120775/

Spoiler

It's not that great, but hey Tom Berenger.

 

[Preezy]

HOW HIGH DOES THE SYCAMORE GROW

I love that film, it reinforced some good lessons when I was a kid about respecting the Earth and not treating those different to me unfairly or negatively. Plus it had great songs and animation. And a singing Mel Gibson, which I think we can all agree was terrific.

 

[Fuchsdh]

There's even a movie!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120775/

Spoiler

It's not that great, but hey Tom Berenger.

And a great song narrated by Liam Neeson, on an entire album the CHieftans did based around Irish-Hispanic collaboration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Patricio_(album)

One thing I do have issues with on reflecting on Ellis' point is I'm not sure I can buy the argument Pocahontas was a "mistake" when more recent Disney films have been better. As she points out, Moana has plenty of the same "hey look at this foreign place" stuff going on with it, and hits a lot of the same plot points. If you strike Pocahontas from existence, do we really think that Disney would have followed the same trajectory, or is it just as likely they would have had to learn the hard way from another film on doing better at handling sensitive topics?

Lindsey could do a video on Jeffrey Katzenberg alone. One of my instructors in college was an animator on Rescues Down Under and it was Katzenberg who came in and insisted the lead boy - who was going to be an Australian Aboriginal boy - be altered into the Aryan kid we got in the end, against all the story-teller and animators' wishes.

Katzenberg, for all his strengths and weaknesses, might be the perfect example of Hollywood's problems with race being self-fulfilling. Whether or not he's prejudiced, if he thinks the minority character isn't going to sell and changes them, then it's just reinforcing the "common wisdom" that minority-headed entertainment won't sell, and we're back to A. With so much of Hollywood even in this big data world still driven by sentiment, it's proved extremely difficult to change.

 

[JCHandsom]

And a great song narrated by Liam Neeson, on an entire album the CHieftans did based around Irish-Hispanic collaboration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Patricio_(album)

One thing I do have issues with on reflecting on Ellis' point is I'm not sure I can buy the argument Pocahontas was a "mistake" when more recent Disney films have been better. As she points out, Moana has plenty of the same "hey look at this foreign place" stuff going on with it, and hits a lot of the same plot points. If you strike Pocahontas from existence, do we really think that Disney would have followed the same trajectory, or is it just as likely they would have had to learn the hard way from another film on doing better at handling sensitive topics?

Did you miss the part of the video where she said that learning from the mistake of Pocahontas was what allowed Disney to do better? She even put in the Megamind quote about failure!

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Lindsey could do a video on Jeffrey Katzenberg alone. One of my instructors in college was an animator on Rescues Down Under and it was Katzenberg who came in and insisted the lead boy - who was going to be an Australian Aboriginal boy - be altered into the Aryan kid we got in the end, against all the story-teller and animators' wishes.


I am glad, at the very least, to see Disney getting better at this.

Fucking what?

Ah, but man, Pocahantas. I remember having some vague love of this film when I was a kid, I imagine mostly down to the imagery and the songs (and a young white Brit's total ignorance of the source material), but there's nothing really left in the same way that I have for Hercules. It's just... kind of difficult to get into a head space where one really can enjoy it while being so completely divorced from the history, because that history is quite important and not all too positive.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Did you miss the part of the video where she said that learning from the mistake of Pocahontas was what allowed Disney to do better? She even put in the Megamind quote about failure!

Yeah, but I feel like you can't have it both ways. Commercial or even artistic projects aren't really effective tools for learning if you don't release or show them. Disney wouldn't have gotten better without Pocahontas, ergo Pocahontas can't be a mistake if you like what they've produced afterwards.

 

[JCHandsom]

Yeah, but I feel like you can't have it both ways. Commercial or even artistic projects aren't really effective tools for learning if you don't release or show them. Disney wouldn't have gotten better without Pocahontas, ergo Pocahontas can't be a mistake if you like what they've produced afterwards.

A mistake can be beneficial and still be a mistake. Just because they learned from its failings doesn't suddenly transform Pocahontas into a good movie.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

A mistake can be beneficial and still be a mistake. Just because they learned from its failings doesn't suddenly transform Pocahontas into a good movie.

Lindsay herself says this in the video. A mistake doesn't mean that it shouldn't have happened, because it can be learned from.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yea Pocahontas was a trash movie. As I got older I really got annoyed at how they tried to equivocate the natives and the colonialists as "both sides."

 

[JCHandsom]

Yea Pocahontas was a trash movie. As I got older I really got annoyed at how they tried to equivocate the natives and the colonialists as "both sides."

Colonial Lives Matter

 

[EdibleKnife]

I really really like that she makes the impact of colonialism a major point of this video. It's because too many people underestimate it that conversations about race and ethnicity, including cultural appropriation, are dismissed so easily. Colonialism, especially fueled by white supremacy, will not stop haunting even our entertainment even if we work to acknowledge it but at least things will evolve for the better if we do more often readily and stop being hesitant about approaching it.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

She was called out on it not just being white people who liked BvS, and went "shrug, just guys then." And then ignored women who replied.

Should've just taken the hit instead of trying to change the goalposts.

TIL you need to have 100% accurate audience statistics behind your back when off hand comical remarks about fanboyism.