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[Oreoleo]

I saw this the other day. Its a fine movie but I thought it gave away too much too soon. In the first 15 minutes you see the witch murder the baby and smear its blood all over herself. Set up an expectation of "wow there's gonna be some serious shit going on an hour from now" and then the whole movie is the family being paranoid around each other. The acting was great, cinemtography etc was on point but I kept waiting the whole movie for a climax that never came and ended up underwhelmed as a result. Really needed to let that baby scene leave more to the imagination or move it to the middle of the movie or something.

 

[Monocle]

I saw this the other day. Its a fine movie but I thought it gave away too much too soon. In the first 15 minutes you see the witch murder the baby and smear its blood all over herself. Set up an expectation of "wow there's gonna be some serious shit going on an hour from now" and then the whole movie is the family being paranoid around each other. The acting was great, cinemtography etc was on point but I kept waiting the whole movie for a climax that never came and ended up underwhelmed as a result. Really needed to let that baby scene leave more to the imagination or move it to the middle of the movie or something.

How can you say the climax never came considering the insanity that went down in the final 15 minutes, and that final shot?

???

And no, the very last thing this movie needs is to play coy with the threat facing the family. The tension that suffuses the film depends on our knowledge that something evil lives in the woods. Playing up the ambiguity would have turned the story into a Shyamalanian exercise in audience manipulation.

Reading GAF movie threads only increases my mistrust of focus testing.

 

[Oreoleo]

How can you say the climax never came considering the insanity that went down in the final 15 minutes, and that final shot?

???

Reading GAF movie threads only increases my mistrust of focus testing.

Not the climax I was anticipating after that opening scene. Hearing the witch walk around on the roof, the goat whispering to Thomasin, that was the best stuff in the movie. But after the witch murdered a baby in cold blood in the opening scene, I expected more than the dad to be goared by a goat.

The final shot of all the witches around the fire didn't really do anything for me. It just 'was'.

 

[Monocle]

Not the climax I was anticipating after that opening scene. Hearing the witch walk around on the roof, the goat whispering to Thomasin, that was the best stuff in the movie. But after the witch murdered a baby in cold blood in the opening scene, I expected more than the dad to be goared by a goat.

The final shot of all the witches around the fire didn't really do anything for me. It just 'was'.

I mean... Taken at face value, The Witch is a film about Satan tearing a family apart in order to seduce one of its members into his service. The ending follows naturally from the rest of the movie. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but what you got was a coherent and internally consistent story with absolute fidelity to its premise that Puritan beliefs about witchcraft are true.

 

[Oreoleo]

I mean... Taken at face value, The Witch is a film about Satan tearing a family apart in order to seduce one of its members into his service. The ending follows naturally from the rest of the movie. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but what you got was a coherent and internally consistent story with absolute fidelity to its premise that Puritan beliefs about witchcraft are true.

Maybe it's a genre thing. Seeing people hype it up as being a horror movie I expected more gore and/or scares. Really it's more of a suspense thriller. A good one at that, but not the movie I was expecting.

 

[Insane Metal]

Super overrated film. It's decent, that's all. It has a nice photography... that's it imo.

 

[More_Badass]

Yeah, that scene wasn't an indication that this was going to be some gory movie of human sacrifices or horrific tortures by the witch. It was 1) confirming definitively that something evil exists out there in the woods, that it isn't a hallucination or madness and 2) showing us the depravity of the horror of the woods, so when Caleb is taken or the twins are taken or we see those looming claustrophobic forests threatening to swallow up the house and family, we know what that means, our imaginations do the rest...and it isn't potions and spells.

Maybe it's a genre thing. Seeing people hype it up as being a horror movie I expected more gore and/or scares. Really it's more of a suspense thriller. A good one at that, but not the movie I was expecting.

It's horror in the same way The Exorcist is horror.

Super overrated film. It's decent, that's all. It has a nice photography... that's it imo.

It's only overrated if you feel other people's impressions are wrong and not geniune. In other words, something not being as good as you wanted doesnt make it overrated.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Not the climax I was anticipating after that opening scene. Hearing the witch walk around on the roof, the goat whispering to Thomasin, that was the best stuff in the movie. But after the witch murdered a baby in cold blood in the opening scene, I expected more than the dad to be goared by a goat.

The final shot of all the witches around the fire didn't really do anything for me. It just 'was'.

Personally, I thought the film went in some unexpected directions that were none the less a direct result of what came before it. The purpose of seeing the witch so early was less to be a foreshadowing of what would become of the rest of the family, and more to establish the witch as real to the audience. Removing the "is the witch real or not?" question from the equation tonally changes what is happening to the family, as they are torn apart both by forces within and without. As More-Badass noted, seeing Caleb alone in the woods is far more terrifying once we know that what is out there, and what she does.

To me, baby paste making scene aside, the most horrifying moment in the film is when Thomasin has to decide whether to kill her mother - who has gone insane from grief and paranoia - or be choked to death by her, as blood poured onto her face. Her father has been gored to death, her baby brother turned into red goo, the twins were taken by the witch (and we know how well that will end for them), the livestock is flayed and gutted, and the barn destroyed.

Just from the standpoint of expecting crazy stuff to happen, I thought the film delivered - just in a way that was more true to what Purtans believed about witches and the devil vs. modern horror genre tropes, which is where I think your (and to be fair, a lot of people's) expectations undermined their enjoyment of the film.

 

[Staccat0]

Personally, I thought the film went in some unexpected directions that were none the less a direct result of what came before it. The purpose of seeing the witch so early was less to be a foreshadowing of what would become of the rest of the family, and more to establish the witch as real to the audience. Removing the "is the witch real or not?" question from the equation tonally changes what is happening to the family, as they are torn apart both by forces within and without. As More-Badass noted, seeing Caleb alone in the woods is far more terrifying once we know that what is out there, and what she does.

To me, baby paste making scene aside, the most horrifying moment in the film is when Thomasin has to decide whether to kill her mother - who has gone insane from grief and paranoia - or be choked to death by her, as blood poured onto her face. Her father has been gored to death, her baby brother turned into red goo, the twins were taken by the witch (and we know how well that will end for them), the livestock is flayed and gutted, and the barn destroyed.

Just from the standpoint of expecting crazy stuff to happen, I thought the film delivered - just in a way that was more true to what Purtans believed about witches and the devil vs. modern horror genre tropes, which is where I think your (and to be fair, a lot of people's) expectations undermined their enjoyment of the film.

This is a good post.

This movie was very good.

I think about it a lot.

 

[deadscreensky]

Yeah, that scene wasn't an indication that this was going to be some gory movie of human sacrifices or horrific tortures by the witch. It was 1) confirming definitively that something evil exists out there in the woods, that it isn't a hallucination or madness and 2) showing us the depravity of the horror of the woods, so when Caleb is taken or the twins are taken or we see those looming claustrophobic forests threatening to swallow up the house and family, we know what that means, our imaginations do the rest...and it isn't potions and spells.

I think the film leans most towards the this is really happening angle, but it also definitely supports the possibility that it's just a bunch of insanity (most notably the rotten crops). Just because it's showing us in the audience these crazy scenes involving a witch doesn't mean this is actually happening to the characters. These scenes are constructed and placed in such a specific way that we could assume it's just depicting the hallucinatory nightmares (fantasies?) of this deeply terrified, possibly drugged family.

I favor it being 'real' too, but it's not as clear-cut as you suggest and this is deliberate on the part of the filmmakers. There actually is an out. One of the things that's so cool about the film is that even if the insanity is all a product of eating poisonous fungus, Thomasin's character arc still completely works. She remains a young woman in a culture which wants to keep her in a very small, unhappy cage, where little pleasures like glass windows and butter are luxuries she can't experience. We can understand and empathize with her choice for living deliciously regardless of whether there's a witch pulling the strings or not. The violent death of her whole, largely innocent family on a very real level is actually a happy ending.

I love this film, still my favorite of the year.

 

[flipping_heck]

Just watched this just now, completely blown away by this. I been meaning to catch up with horror films this year and glad I saw this. The cinematography is one fo the best out there, heck, I say it is even better than The Revenant which was great as well.

One great thing about this horror film is that it the slow build up of creepiness and also whether something supernatural is going on or not. Surprisingly claustrophobic despite it's open woods and lands, and sound design is great.

Great performances from everyone apart from the two little kids, one of my movie highlights this year.

9/10

 

[Kyuur]

Saw that this had made its way to Netflix and was super excited to watch, as I remembered very positive impressions from earlier this year.. and it just fell flat for me. The first half was intriguing enough to keep me watching until the end but I can't say I really enjoyed it too much. Minimal tension and atmosphere, obnoxious sound design and generally uninteresting plot developments (often just leaving me going, "ok, who's next") would be some of my top complaints.

Perhaps interesting as a modern parable to study but certainly not an enjoyable film. Especially coming off something like 10 Cloverfield Lane earlier this year.

 

[Monocle]

Minimal tension?

 

[More_Badass]

Minimal atmosphere?

 

[SillyEskimo]

Uninteresting plot developments?

 

[Kyuur]

Sorry guys! It mostly did nothing for me; hit right at key "scary" moments but hardly otherwise. Scenes with the goats were the only real unnerving thing outside of those moments. The rest was a tiring slog; definitely didn't keep me or my fiancee hanging off the edge of our seats.

 

[perineumlick]

Watched it again on Amazon, just to see if my feelings about it might change. Nope, still rather forgettable to me. It is unsettling at times, but nothing profound like say The Exorcist, which I think is the best horror film ever made.

 

[Indelible]

Definitely enjoyed the movie, nice sense of dread throughout. Not my favorite horror movie of the last few years but I can see why this was so highly rated.

 

[Mascot]

Sorry guys! It mostly did nothing for me; hit right at key "scary" moments but hardly otherwise. Scenes with the goats were the only real unnerving thing outside of those moments. The rest was a tiring slog; definitely didn't keep me or my fiancee hanging off the edge of our seats.

I don't think it was the aim of The Witch to keep you hanging off the edge of your seats. It's more slow burn psychological horror. Sounds like you wanted a slasher flick?

 

[Killer Queen]

I watched it last night. I liked it, it's ideas, cinematography and actors and I loved the language along with the actors, didn't like the ending too much but everything else I enjoyed. Could've also done without the

Spoiler

baby killing scene

Not sure why its rated a 1 star on Netflix with all the popular trashy horror films like paranormal activity and how silly they are.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I watched it last night. I liked it, it's ideas, cinematography and actors and I loved the language along with the actors, didn't like the ending too much but everything else I enjoyed. Could've also done without the

Spoiler

baby killing scene

Not sure why its rated a 1 star on Netflix with all the popular trashy horror films like paranormal activity and how silly they are.

I think that answers your question.

 

[lordxar]

I believe the Netflix rating system is not an aggregate but some sort of expectation system. Like they look at how you've rated similar items and compare that to how other people rated the same thing. Or something like that.

http://bgr.com/2016/02/10/netflix-ratings-what-they-mean-how-they-work/

 

[Days like these...]

I'm a huge horror fan and I have to admit 'horror fans' are the worst well at least 'It wasn't even scary jump scare horror fans' are. I loved The Witch. I loved Babadook too.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Just saw this on Netflix. It left me really disturbed and thoroughly creeped out. I'll skip through the obviously great stuff - the acting, the dialogue, the cinematography, the music - all fantastic. What's bothering me about it is the moral structure of the film, and how it works. There is no modern, rational voice in this film, no modern interpretive device. Spoilers, of course.

The moral structure is very religious, old-school Christian. God is real, Satan is real. The wilderness is full of Satan's literal influence. The father is a heretic because he disagrees on points of interpretation of the Bible. His sin of pride in his beliefs causes him to drag his family out into the countryside, away from the protection of the plantation. The family's faith is weakened by the difficulties of life on their own, making them more vulnerable to Satan's havoc. The black goat is literally Satan, the rabbit is the witch's familiar. The children are literally influenced and corrupted by Satan, and he uses them, aided by the witch(es), to help tear the family apart. Caleb regains his faith and offers his life up to Christ, experiencing ecstasy as he leaves his body. In the end, Satan leaves alive the family member of most use to him - a nubile virgin - and induces her into his coven, along with all the other wicked women he's seduced.

I guess the way it works best is to show the thought processes of a people from a bygone era, frightened people in a wild country, who clung to their religion because they didn't have much else of an explanation for life's harshness and difficulties.

 

[More_Badass]

It was based very directly on the beliefs and sources of the era, so it works as a period-piece nightmare in a way. This would be a Puritan-era person's horror movie

 

[mantidor]

There is no modern, rational voice in this film, no modern interpretive device.

I think you hit the nail right in the head here about why this film is so divisive, for some that kind of unfamiliarity is really unsettling and completely enhances the horror of the film, for others it just creates a distance from the events and they can't empathize, thus not really caring and obviously not being scared by it.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Having lived in Massachusetts all my life, this film holds a special place in my heart. Aside from all criticism of the puritanical aspects and the period dialog, I feel the film really gives this vibe to the woods. The feeling in your gut you get from ring in the wild, on the cusp of something supernatural. That's my main love for the film. Everythi g else just augments this for me.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Just watched this, half way through I wasn't feeling anything but being a little bored, I get the witch was real but nothing really flipped it just built to the end, then you get what it was all about and it ended up being a really good story of an era long gone and forgotten.

I wouldn't call it a typical modern day horror film and upon reading thoughts here I think that's actually a good as horror films these days are a by the numbers experience, this was your atypical horror of the early days, they didn't give jump scares cheaply or make it all about the monster, it was about the destruction of a family for the gain of Satan.

Crazy shit. Great film, but you do have to digest what you saw to really appreciate it.

 

[NintendosBooger]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

 

[lordxar]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

I took it that because they broke away and were on their own (reasons don't matter which is why were not told) it made them more susceptible (just because they lived in the middle of nowhere not because of belief so much) and I think the point was more that shit happens and even good people can be led down a bad path regardless of puzzle boxes or possessed houses. Technically they did have a religious foundation built when they left but the eldest had room in her heart for temptation where the parents were probably too old to tempt and the younger ones unable to process it quite yet.

And not to get into a religious debate by any means you have biblical stories of people dying at the hands of lions and stuff like that with no help from the good guys, you just get told that on the other side they got a just reward so that's not really different than this film. Your simply getting the physical side of things here and not the total spiritual picture.

I'm rewatching this on Halloween and am really looking forward to seeing if my opinion changes about it. I found it boring the first time but I've followed this thread and saw some of the filmmaking discussions and lore so I'm really excited to revisit this with a fresh set of eyes...and I own it so I need to feel like I'm getting my money's worth

 

[Fancy Clown]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

It's kinda like real life how horrible things can happen to people who don't deserve it and there's nothing they can do to stop it. But religiously you could argue their fanaticism and repression is what made them so susceptible once they were all on their own. Their lies, repressed sexuality, and treatment of Thomasin as more or less a piece of property all made them susceptible to the witch/devil's power. Did they deserve their fate? Nah, that's pretty brutal. But they themselves challenged their faith by leaving the community because they weren't hardcore Christian enough (when the puritans aren't christian enough for this family, you know something is up), but they weren't prepared for it because their overly devout nature and belief that all people are born into sin led to exposing fundamental human flaws which end up giving the Witch lots of opportunity to exploit them, and it drove away Thomasin to join a force that may be evil, but at least gives her a sense of belonging, agency, and autonomy.

 

[mantidor]

From the perspective of the time the family did invite the devil, not just by leaving the plantation but by their own sins, it's obviously a much harsher Christian view, but it was that bad back then. In the very first scenes we see Thomasin praying for forgiveness for just merely having thoughts, the father tells Caleb how we are all born in sin, period, this breaks Caleb because he know realizes Samuel is in hell, the mother repeats this. What seems like innocuous acts that had somewhat of a justification for us are big sins for the time period, like the mother caring about the cup (greed), the father lying about it (pride), Caleb having normal young curiosity for sexuality (lust), etc, etc.

 

[RustyNails]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

I'm not a Christian, and your points are exactly what I've been trying to convey in my previous posts. Especially the last paragraph. Satan in the movie is not bound by conventional laws and rules of the book. The family maybe crazy religious types, but they were wholely innocent, including Thomasin.

However, Caleb's epiphany showed that their prayers were true and he was embraced by Jesus as he was dying, so all is not lost. But on earth however, no prayers were answered and Satan is to roam free. I like the idea of terrible evil. But the rules that govern it must be true in whole.

 

[afternoon delight]

I avoided this because usually hyperbole doesn't prep me well but goddamn you were all right. Best horror film of the second aughts, besting It Follows by a wide margin. I can't even remember the last time

Spoiler

a witch

made me feel so disgusted.

Super freaking plus A kudos for so much historical accuracy pulled from the primary sources!

 

[Fancy Clown]

From the perspective of the time the family did invite the devil, not just by leaving the plantation but by their own sins, it's obviously a much harsher Christian view, but it was that bad back then. In the very first scenes we see Thomasin praying for forgiveness for just merely having thoughts, the father tells Caleb how we are all born in sin, period, this breaks Caleb because he know realizes Samuel is in hell, the mother repeats this. What seems like innocuous acts that had somewhat of a justification for us are big sins for the time period, like the mother caring about the cup (greed), the father lying about it (pride), Caleb having normal young curiosity for sexuality (lust), etc, etc.

I don't think they were being punished for "sinning" (lying, having sexual thoughts), but because they were so repressive and backwards about such things simply believing they're sins it made them super susceptible to being preyed upon, especially when they left their community. The fact that they think they are all sinners leads to all the familial strife which is what the witch exploits.

However, Caleb's epiphany showed that their prayers were true and he was embraced by Jesus as he was dying, so all is not lost.

Ummm yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not what was happening there. He was possessed in that scene and was mocking their faith in Jesus by having a sexual experience in his death throws (it's pretty clearly played as orgasmic). It is a perversion of their faith, since they are all so sexually repressed.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Ummm yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not what was happening there. He was possessed in that scene and was mocking their faith in Jesus by having a sexual experience in his death throws (it's pretty clearly played as orgasmic). It is a perversion of their faith, since they are all so sexually repressed.

I don't think Caleb's death scene was sexualized. Caleb is hysterical and crying out about what happened to him, under the witch's spell. His family begins to pray in unison, and after a while the spell Caleb was under breaks, and he joins in their prayer. As he's dying he sees the vision of Jesus welcoming him into heaven. His faith was rewarded.

I'd also argue his father's was as well, though that's more ambiguous.

 

[Fuu]

Having such a powerful evil that seems nearly inescapable makes it even more horrific too.

Very effective film, the last time I felt the supernatural being as oppressive as this was watching the original BWP at the cinema.

Ummm yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not what was happening there. He was possessed in that scene and was mocking their faith in Jesus by having a sexual experience in his death throws (it's pretty clearly played as orgasmic). It is a perversion of their faith, since they are all so sexually repressed.

yeah, that was actually one of the more disturbing scenes to me: a kid having hallucinations, orgasming and dying.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I don't think Caleb's death scene was sexualized. Caleb is hysterical and crying out about what happened to him, under the witch's spell. His family begins to pray in unison, and after a while the spell Caleb was under breaks, and he joins in their prayer. As he's dying he sees the vision of Jesus welcoming him into heaven. His faith was rewarded.

I'd also argue his father's was as well, though that's more ambiguous.

I think it's implied he's orgasming in that scene. There's nothing else in the film to suggest that anyone else's faith in Jesus is being rewarded, so it doesn't make sense for him to either, since they all "sinned" equally. Their prayers are never answered at any other point, and he was possessed there, so I think its safe to assume that praying in that moment didn't work either. Eggars even stated that he chose that prayer for Caleb because of the bizzarely erotic relationship it shows with God, and he wanted to obfuscate whether the boy was saved or not. On the one hand he's praying...but on the other, I think how the scene is played out, the context of the rest of the film, and the fact that we know he's been bewitched paint it in a disturbing light. Even the parents don't seem very much relieved, but perplexed and disturbed (not simply because he died). But certainly ambiguity was an intent on Eggars part in how that scene was filmed, so you're not wrong in reading it that way.

"A lot of scenes started with 'that's interesting.' I'd read something and be like, 'That’s interesting—that's evocative. Maybe I’ll start writing a scene around some evocative language,'" Eggers says. "That 'kiss me with the kisses with his mouth' was very striking to me. With some more research, I realized it's from the Song of Solomon that Winthrop is appropriating. It's very common all through the Middle Ages and the early modern period for people to appropriate biblical language in their own way. But this kind of mystical, erotic relationship with God is something that was very interesting, to say the least. And I think that especially from a modern perspective, we really wonder is he saved or is he not saved? And that’s a question that the parents are asking themselves."

Here's the whole piece about that scene, it's good read:https://www.fastcocreate.com/3056743/master-class/anatomy-of-a-scene-the-most-pivotal-moment-in-the-witch-explained

I'd also argue his father's was as well, though that's more ambiguous.

I think his father's faith was explicity not rewarded. Throughout the film he is seen chopping wood and is visualized very Christlike, and as his frustration in his faith becomes more and more strained he becomes more manic in the wood chopping. And how does he die? He gets crushed beneath the very pile of wood he so devoutly chopped the whole film. I think it's a visual representation of his own feverish faith doing him in, essentially.

 

[obin_gam]

Screening this for my 3rd year Jr High students next week. I told them and warned them about it using old english and it would be hard to understand (we're in Sweden), but they voted to watch for this one nonetheless. It will be fun to see how much they actually pick up though regarding the language. I have good faith in them

 

[kunonabi]

Of course it's free on Netflix after I just rented it a few weeks ago. At least now I'll be able to give it another watch since the sound was awful on Amazon. This was one of my two favorite movies this year along with Shin Godzilla. It was just chilling and atmospheric in all the right ways. I wish period horror films were more common as the disconnect between our modern lives and these old ways of living and thinking can really make for some unsettling films.

 

[lordxar]

I'd recommend Haxan from 1922 which is on Hulu. I watched it for the Halloween movie marathon. It's a Swedish silent film all about witches. It covers Witch hunts and the tools used to extract a confession plus mental illness playing it's part too. I thought it was a pretty good companion piece to this and I'd almost forgot about seeing it.

 

[RustyNails]

I think it's implied he's orgasming in that scene. There's nothing else in the film to suggest that anyone else's faith in Jesus is being rewarded, so it doesn't make sense for him to either, since they all "sinned" equally. Their prayers are never answered at any other point, and he was possessed there, so I think its safe to assume that praying in that moment didn't work either. Eggars even stated that he chose that prayer for Caleb because of the bizzarely erotic relationship it shows with God, and he wanted to obfuscate whether the boy was saved or not. On the one hand he's praying...but on the other, I think how the scene is played out, the context of the rest of the film, and the fact that we know he's been bewitched paint it in a disturbing light. Even the parents don't seem very much relieved, but perplexed and disturbed (not simply because he died). But certainly ambiguity was an intent on Eggars part in how that scene was filmed, so you're not wrong in reading it that way.



Here's the whole piece about that scene, it's good read:https://www.fastcocreate.com/3056743/master-class/anatomy-of-a-scene-the-most-pivotal-moment-in-the-witch-explained

Eggers suggests only that it's left open to interpretation. He even suggests the whole movie could be just a drug infused fantasy due to the rot on the corn that causes hallucinations. I think if you follow the plot it leads you toward the interpretation that Caleb was saved. Having an intense relationship with God is something that's purposefully examined, and the fact that Caleb goes through those motions suggests that he was not faking. He was taken by the witch and was under a spell. When the family starts reciting the prayers, the twins start going crazy and the rotten apple is eventually coughed out from Caleb's throat. Caleb having the moment couldnt be anything but the final release his family promised him, and the intense relationship with God comes to fruition maybe in the form of sexual gratification like you suggest, but it's true in its actualization. Caleb found the promise he was looking for, the twins who we know were touched by evil were squirming, and Satan had nothing to gain by making the parents and family believe that he went to heaven in Jesus' embrace.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

Black Phillip was the devil in disguise and he was adopted by the two youngest children. During Caleb's final scene, it seemed as if the two younger ones had been possessed as well, although I feel that they were used as a ploy by Black Phillip to lure Tomasin towards the devil and, subsequently, the coven.

I think you expounded on your thoughts really well. However, I'd hazard to guess that the reason for the breakdown was catalyzed by the family's departure from the settlement. The issue that pervades the movie is William's zealotry towards his religion; this fanatical attachment to God and his continued oppression of his family to follow his self-made path towards salvation. The poor crop yield, the selling of a family heirloom, and the poor yield from the forest traps is sort of a reflection of the family's continued failings.

I think that zealotry reflected William's doubts about his faith. I think that, in order for him to feel fulfilled in his faith, he went to the extreme--choosing to ostracize his family as to feel right with God. I think that mindset was the chink in the armor that allowed Black Phillip to invade the family and destroy from within. I think, in some way, the family continued to invite Satan in as they struggled to survive in the wilderness.

 

[guek]

I don't think Caleb's death scene was sexualized. Caleb is hysterical and crying out about what happened to him, under the witch's spell. His family begins to pray in unison, and after a while the spell Caleb was under breaks, and he joins in their prayer. As he's dying he sees the vision of Jesus welcoming him into heaven. His faith was rewarded.

I'd also argue his father's was as well, though that's more ambiguous.

I agree with this interpretation.

I don't know if the father was redeemed but he definitely repented and confessed before death. The entire point of him dropping the axe was to convey him giving up his pride and recognizing his own sin.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Eggers suggests only that it's left open to interpretation. He even suggests the whole movie could be just a drug infused fantasy due to the rot on the corn that causes hallucinations. I think if you follow the plot it leads you toward the interpretation that Caleb was saved. Having an intense relationship with God is something that's purposefully examined, and the fact that Caleb goes through those motions suggests that he was not faking. He was taken by the witch and was under a spell. When the family starts reciting the prayers, the twins start going crazy and the rotten apple is eventually coughed out from Caleb's throat. Caleb having the moment couldnt be anything but the final release his family promised him, and the intense relationship with God comes to fruition maybe in the form of sexual gratification like you suggest, but it's true in its actualization. Caleb found the promise he was looking for, the twins who we know were touched by evil were squirming, and Satan had nothing to gain by making the parents and family believe that he went to heaven in Jesus' embrace.

Except Caleb never had an intense relationship with God, he is the one who openly questions his father about it. That moment is out of character for him, and the sexual release that accompanies it goes hand in hand with how he struggles with his sexuality that was being repressed by his faith. Death is his release, granted to him by the powers of the witch. This is lent further credence by the fact that his image is then used later in the film to tempt his mother. Would his soul be able to be used for such a purpose if he was really in heaven? As the father himself says to Caleb in the woods, even a child is a sinner and Caleb's last living act was one of a sexual nature. As you said it's open to interpretation either way, but I definitely don't think the film clearly points to Caleb being saved. This is a film about the devil winning in the end, after all.

And the parents very clearly do not believe that Caleb is in heaven, because they are as disturbed as the viewer should be. Because even though Caleb is uttering a prayer, it seems to be a perversion of it.

The twins freak out during the prayer so that blame Thomasin (who they know is not the witch) in order to turn the family against her, and thus make her more susceptible to turning to Satan, since they are under the influence of Black Phillip.

I agree with this interpretation.

I don't know if the father was redeemed but he definitely repented and confessed before death. The entire point of him dropping the axe was to convey him giving up his pride and recognizing his own sin.

He certainly repented and was redeemed in a humanistic sense. But through the film's lens of the religious and supernatural I think it's clear there was no spiritual redemption for him outside of the personal sense. The devil killed him, and buried him under the tangible symbol of his faith.

I also find it very telling that much like in Bergman's The Seventh Seal, despite characters search for God and salvation, the only deity that appears to them and directly influences their lives is Death, or in this film's case, Satan.

Also, for anyone who like this film for the depth of reading one can do for the spiritual angle, I highly recommend The Wailing, which tackles the supernatural and religious in a similarly complex and engrossing manner. They would make for a great (if depressing) double feature.

 

[Fuu]

Except Caleb never had an intense relationship with God, he is the one who openly questions his father about it. That moment is out of character for him, and the sexual release that accompanies it goes hand in hand with how he struggles with his sexuality that was being repressed by his faith. Death is his release, granted to him by the powers of the witch. This is lent further credence by the fact that his image is then used later in the film to tempt his mother. Would his soul be able to be used for such a purpose if he was really in heaven? As the father himself says to Caleb in the woods, even a child is a sinner and Caleb's last living act was one of a sexual nature. As you said it's open to interpretation either way, but I definitely don't think the film clearly points to Caleb being saved. This is a film about the devil winning in the end, after all.

And the parents very clearly do not believe that Caleb is in heaven, because they are as disturbed as the viewer should be. Because even though Caleb is uttering a prayer, it seems to be a perversion of it.

The twins freak out during the prayer so that blame Thomasin (who they know is not the witch) in order to turn the family against her, and thus make her more susceptible to turning to Satan, since they are under the influence of Black Phillip.



He certainly repented and was redeemed in a humanistic sense. But through the film's lens of the religious and supernatural I think it's clear there was no spiritual redemption for him outside of the personal sense. The devil killed him, and buried him under the tangible symbol of his faith.

I also find it very telling that much like in Bergman's The Seventh Seal, despite characters search for God and salvation, the only deity that appears to them and directly influences their lives is Death, or in this film's case, Satan.

Also, for anyone who like this film for the depth of reading one can do for the spiritual angle, I highly recommend The Wailing, which tackles the supernatural and religious in a similarly complex and engrossing manner. They would make for a great (if depressing) double feature.

yeah, that's what I got out of that sequence too, plus what you said about the wood chopping in a previous post.

there was no salvation and no fairness in this movie. and that's what makes it extra frightening.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I agree with this interpretation.

I don't know if the father was redeemed but he definitely repented and confessed before death. The entire point of him dropping the axe was to convey him giving up his pride and recognizing his own sin.

Yeah, that was my interpretation of him dropping the axe as well. He relied on his faith....which cost him his life, but I like to think the combination of his repentance and him showing his faith in that moment save him after.

It's also a critical moment for Thomasin, as she sees that even those with strong faith are not safe in this life. Her faith was much weaker, and she wanted to live. Hearing her father's prayer and seeing his death are part of what push her to go down path she does, I think.

I think it's implied he's orgasming in that scene. There's nothing else in the film to suggest that anyone else's faith in Jesus is being rewarded, so it doesn't make sense for him to either, since they all "sinned" equally. Their prayers are never answered at any other point, and he was possessed there, so I think its safe to assume that praying in that moment didn't work either. Eggars even stated that he chose that prayer for Caleb because of the bizzarely erotic relationship it shows with God, and he wanted to obfuscate whether the boy was saved or not. On the one hand he's praying...but on the other, I think how the scene is played out, the context of the rest of the film, and the fact that we know he's been bewitched paint it in a disturbing light. Even the parents don't seem very much relieved, but perplexed and disturbed (not simply because he died). But certainly ambiguity was an intent on Eggars part in how that scene was filmed, so you're not wrong in reading it that way.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with an interpretation of a scene as strongly as I do this one. That is absolutely not being implied. He transitions from terrors and visions to joining in his family's prayer, and from pain to peace when he speaks of seeing Christ. There's nothing sexual there at all.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with an interpretation of a scene as strongly as I do this one. That is absolutely not being implied. He transitions from terrors and visions to joining in his family's prayer, and from pain to peace when he speaks of seeing Christ. There's nothing sexual there at all.

Really? He interrupts his family's prayer with a piece chosen by Eggars specifically for it's unsettling eroticism, and moans and writhes with ecstacy as he does so. He then laughs himself to death while his family sits in horrified silence. Salvation or not, that's a pretty far cry from him joining his family in prayer and simply finding Jesus and passing in a peaceful manner. If anything I find it more likely he has mistaken the witch's seduction and possession of him for divinity because it grants him release from his sexual repression, which is what he was struggling with throughout the film. The Witch literally seduced him the scene prior, so to deny that this continuation of that moment has no sexual overtones kinda ignores the text.

Here's an excerpt from one of many reviews that discuss this scene:

After coughing up an apple, he loudly declares, before his entire family, his love for Jesus Christ, erotically moaning, parodying the sexual tension of a book like the Song of Songs. And, of course, his fit culminates with his screeching, racked with sexual pleasure: “kiss me with the kisses of your mouth.” His burgeoning desire for manliness, both in his sexuality and his longing to protect his family, is transmogrified into an open, to them anyway, effeminacy, a mockery of the cross.

Mocking the family's prayers shows them that they are well and trully alone in their plight against the devil.

 

[Fuu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQgzaREeKXs

Bad framerate, but here's the scene in question for anyone wanting a refresher.

I didn't know about Eggers's intentions, but when I watched I most definitely saw it as Caleb having an orgasm before passing away. I think the intent on making it sexual is pretty clear regardless of what happened to his spirit at the end.

 

[Draft]

His behavior and dialog clearly invoke sensuality and sexuality.