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[Steamlord]

I'm firmly in the "Caleb is damned" camp. Caleb is possessed in that scene and the sexual overtones are totally there. He fakes out the family by finishing the prayer with them, which makes them rejoice, then he goes into that strange homoerotic rant that stuns the family into silence, then he arches his back, lets out a contented, practically post-orgasmic sigh, then dies.

Spoiler

If you look, there's actually a stain in the crotch area at that point but I have no idea if it was deliberate or not...just something I've noticed since I've seen the film about four times, several times after seeing discussions about this scene. Don't look at me like that.

It's a total mockery of prayer. Katherine is later seen crying out that Caleb is damned, and William's best response is basically a hesitant "we don't know that for sure." Caleb's regurgitation of an entire apple, which do not exist anywhere near the farm and which reflects Caleb's earlier lie, proves to the family that he is a victim of witchcraft. Eggers also specifically points out in the commentary that the scene was difficult in part because they couldn't explain to Harvey Scrimshaw its exact significance, because I guess he was too young to understand just how fucked up it was.

Besides, Caleb is arguably the most rational and loyal member of the family, so seeing him go in such a way is extra horrifying.

 

[snacknuts]

I've watched the film.

As a Christian, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stories depicting Satan as being allowed to set loose on a seemingly innocent family. I understand the Witch isn't the first movie to tell this sort of tale, but it's the first in my recent memory to portray the notion so sharply.

In most horror films, the characters in question either willingly (or sometimes unwittingly) allow for the Devil and his minions to become their persecutors through some action of sin facilitated by temptation, thus sealing their own fates, or said horror is visited upon the innocent by one of Satan's human agents (IMO, a Witch doesn't qualify as human). In the latter, the human vehicle of Satan can be overcome by conventional courage and means.

The family in this story had no hope, no chance to save themselves from the Satan-sent devilry that assaulted them with no just cause, and neither God nor Christ intervened or offered any semblance of hope. That is what I found so disturbing. They didn't wander into a haunted house, knowing beforehand its nature. They were not seduced into tinkering with a demonic puzzle box.

Was it Caleb's pride that invited the horror? All he did was leave a colony because he found its religious mandates incompatible with his own.

I don't know. The idea that Satan or his demon can be unleashed on a relatively innocent family with no help or presence from the other side doesn't sit well with me, and promotes the notion that the victims were always worshiping the losing team.

As someone who finds religion and belief in the supernatural to be completely ridiculous, I am not sure what to make of this post. It seems like the part of this film that you describe as making you uncomfortable -- Satan descending upon a helpless family without any protection from their God or savior -- is entirely in keeping with real life. Bad things happen to "good" people all the time without God intervening.

When you talk about the family worshiping "the losing team," the context of your post makes me think that you're talking about the side of evil, but since they won out, the actual losing team would be the side who cast their lot in with God. If nothing else, I suppose I'm glad the film made you uncomfortable.

 

[guek]

His behavior and dialog clearly invoke sensuality and sexuality.

Christ is frequently referred to as a promised bride, and kisses haven't always had an overt sexual connotation in the carnal sense. Crossing over into the afterlife into the embrace of Christ has also been akin to consummating a marriage in the past. I think a lot of the sexual overtones people are seeing are products of modern connotations but not necessarily present in the context of the time period.

Coughing up the apple is also symbolic of throwing off the curse, both the witch's curse and the devil's curse of original sin.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I'm firmly in the "Caleb is damned" camp. Caleb is possessed in that scene and the sexual overtones are totally there. He fakes out the family by finishing the prayer with them, which makes them rejoice, then he goes into that strange homoerotic rant that stuns the family into silence, then he arches his back, lets out a contented, practically post-orgasmic sigh, then dies.

Spoiler

If you look, there's actually a stain in the crotch area at that point but I have no idea if it was deliberate or not...just something I've noticed since I've seen the film about four times, several times after seeing discussions about this scene. Don't look at me like that.

It's a total mockery of prayer. Katherine is later seen crying out that Caleb is damned, and William's best response is basically a hesitant "we don't know that for sure." Caleb's regurgitation of an entire apple, which do not exist anywhere near the farm and which reflects Caleb's earlier lie, proves to the family that he is a victim of witchcraft. Eggers also specifically points out in the commentary that the scene was difficult in part because they couldn't explain to Harvey Scrimshaw its exact significance, because I guess he was too young to understand just how fucked up it was.

Besides, Caleb is arguably the most rational and loyal member of the family, so seeing him go in such a way is extra horrifying.

It also just doesn't make sense tonally or contextually for him to all of a sudden be saved in this scene. This scene is the turning point for all the plot threads in the movie go from bad to worse, and him randomly having the prayers that are shown to be totally ineffectual throughout the entire rest of the film to all of a sudden break him from his possession and give him peace doesn't accomplish that story beat. The Witch's whole goal is to turn the family on one another and kill them off in order to turn Thomasin over to Satan's influence. By having the twins accuse her and having Caleb mock their faith in such a perverse manner is the ultimate way to break their faith and their bond as a family, which of course is exactly what happens.

Christ is frequently referred to as a promised bride, and kisses haven't always had an overt sexual connotation in the carnal sense. Crossing over into the afterlife into the embrace of Christ has also been akin to consummating a marriage in the past. I think a lot of the sexual overtones people are seeing are products of modern connotations but not necessarily present in the context of the time period.

Coughing up the apple is also symbolic of throwing off the curse, both the witch's curse and the devil's curse of original sin.

The apple needed to be coughed up in order to visually confirm that he was possessed by the Witch, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is no longer under the influence. And even if he's not, his sexual moans and his speaking of kisses are probably not referring to going over to Christ, but because the Witch just seduced him, kissed him, and likely had sex with him given he was found naked with scratches all over his body, and he is conflating sexual release with spiritual release (if he is not still under the Witch's power).

And I would agree with you with the first part, if not for Caleb's performance in this scene, which very obviously highlights the sexuality of the verse.

 

[NintendosBooger]

As someone who finds religion and belief in the supernatural to be completely ridiculous, I am not sure what to make of this post. It seems like the part of this film that you describe as making you uncomfortable -- Satan descending upon a helpless family without any protection from their God or savior -- is entirely in keeping with real life. Bad things happen to "good" people all the time without God intervening.

When you talk about the family worshiping "the losing team," the context of your post makes me think that you're talking about the side of evil, but since they won out, the actual losing team would be the side who cast their lot in with God. If nothing else, I suppose I'm glad the film made you uncomfortable.

I know bad things happen to good people.

Children are mauled by animals in a zoo and innocent families are obliterated in their homes by aerial drones. We are all potential victims of mother nature and ourselves. In my view, there are evil influences at work in the world but that is different from evil itself playing a direct hand in the persecution of innocent people, which is the case in this movie.

My problem with the story is the complete absence of any opposing force to intervene on behalf of the family that found itself obliviously and unwarrantedly persecuted by evil. Had there been some small divine warning or something in a dream that went ignored, that would have been one thing, but to me, the message in this story isn't that evil trumps God; it's that God simply doesn't exist or doesn't care for His children enough to shield them from His nemesis. In the Book of Job, Satan not only had to restrain himself when testing Job, he asked God's permission before he waylaid him with calamity and despair.

Like the previous poster said, there are rules to this good vs. evil thing, and this film completely ignored it to its own detriment as a story.

 

[More_Badass]

I know bad things happen to good people.

Children are mauled by animals in a zoo and innocent families are obliterated in their homes by aerial drones. We are all potential victims of mother nature and ourselves. In my view, there are evil influences at work in the world but that is different from evil itself playing a direct hand in the persecution of innocent people, which is the case in this movie.

My problem with the story is the complete absence of any opposing force to intervene on behalf of the family that found themselves obliviously and unwarrantedly persecuted by evil. Had there been some small divine warning or something in a dream that went ignored, that would have been one thing, but to me, the message in this story isn't that evil trumps God; it's that God simply doesn't exist or doesn't care for His children enough to shield them from His nemesis. In the Book of Job, Satan not only had to restrain himself when testing Job, he asked God's permission before he waylaid him with calamity and despair.

Like the previous poster said, there are rules to this good vs. evil thing, and this film completely ignored it to its own detriment as a story.

Who said there were rules? We believe there are, fiction loves to remind us of that belief. Maybe The Witch's worldview is the more accurate one and the whole "rules to this good vs evil thing" is just a nice facade we believe so we don't have to accept the alternative

 

[Steamlord]

Keep in mind that from the colonial Calvinist worldview, most people were just straight up damned and there was nothing they could do about it. The way the film depicts religion is more in that vein, as something terrible, unforgiving, and oppressive, rather than the (relatively) more uplifting interpretations people tend to have today. The Puritans believed some fucked up things, and in this movie those fucked up things happen to be real.

 

[Robdraggoo]

I finally got a chance to watch this movie. And though I thought it was pretty good, i dont think it hit the right notes I wanted it to.

Atmosphere, cinematography, performances. All excellent.

Story about a young girl being tormented by her puritanical family just because she's becoming a women. Very strong narrative. And it hit all the right emotional tones with me.

All members of this family are within sin except Thomason. Who seemed to be blamed for all the families misgivings.

The twins rambuction
Her brother lusting for her
The cup her father stole
The loss of the baby


Ultimately I feel this movie would have worked a lot better had the actual witch stuff been left completely ambiguous. If the isolation and dower circumstances mixed with extreme religious beliefs was the cuase.

But that's just me.

 

[More_Badass]

It's offically happening
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1313211

 

[Megalosaro]

I know bad things happen to good people.

Children are mauled by animals in a zoo and innocent families are obliterated in their homes by aerial drones. We are all potential victims of mother nature and ourselves. In my view, there are evil influences at work in the world but that is different from evil itself playing a direct hand in the persecution of innocent people, which is the case in this movie.

My problem with the story is the complete absence of any opposing force to intervene on behalf of the family that found itself obliviously and unwarrantedly persecuted by evil. Had there been some small divine warning or something in a dream that went ignored, that would have been one thing, but to me, the message in this story isn't that evil trumps God; it's that God simply doesn't exist or doesn't care for His children enough to shield them from His nemesis. In the Book of Job, Satan not only had to restrain himself when testing Job, he asked God's permission before he waylaid him with calamity and despair.

Like the previous poster said, there are rules to this good vs. evil thing, and this film completely ignored it to its own detriment as a story.

As an above poster said, this film isn't really about the modern view of Christianity. It's about the colonial. The god of this movie is a very different god then your own god. He is wrathful.

The family's true downfall was when the left the town. By being excommunicated due to the father's sin of pride, they were no long protected by god.

Your argument was that they did nothing wrong, but from a puritan perspective that is all they needed to do.

Ultimately I feel this movie would have worked a lot better had the actual witch stuff been left completely ambiguous. If the isolation and dower circumstances mixed with extreme religious beliefs was the cuase.

But that's just me.

Nah, we have a ton of those types of movies. When we think new england era witch stuff, we are trained to think "paranoia" and hysteria. This was refreshing. Besides I don't think ive ever seen a movie capture the zeitgeist of the era so well. This movie captures perfectly the reality the puritan's believed they were in.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

Bit of a bump I know, but finally watched this last night. Its a film that lingers.

I did go into it with the hype of a truly horrifying scare filled film, what I got was exactly what was advertised on the box.

Its a tale about something that happened. Something evil that happened. And that's it.

Film looked great, was miserable throughout. I went in a bit blind, not knowing who was in it, but as soon as the film opened and the dad started speaking, I knew it was Brent's mate from the office in it, that voice is unquestionable.

I love films involving the devil, especially ones that are not just outright gore fests, this one shows you the crafty devious methods used to destroy good decent people.

I think I will need to re-watch this at some point, mainly with headphones so I can actually hear what most of the actors are saying.

Loved it.

 

[pantsmith]

Just watched, and loved it.

I love the thematic of the woods as the realm of satan, and the Puritanical dread of being mostly convinced everyone was doomed and dangling by the tiniest sliver of God's mercy. Through the lens of the time and that particular culture these people are absolutely fucked, and God probably doesn't care. I love the ambiguity of the fate of their souls. Caleb was either saved or he died in a lustful mockery of their faith. The twins were either raptured or killed by that witch. We dont really get clear answers, but the Puritans wouldnt have been optimistic.

For anyone looking for a happy ending, as someone who was raised as an orthodox christian I'll happily let you know that all you have to do to be saved is repent. Jesus' sacrifice means everyone, christian or not, is in the clear. So Caleb was saved, the twins were raptured, and the father's soul made it to heaven. Mom and Thomasin likely signed their souls away, so its a lot harder at that point, but Im still pretty sure its not too late lol

 

[teh_pwn]

Just saw it. Weird nobody else is discussing the interpretation.

Spoiler

There is no witch. They're all hallucinating from the fungus that's destroying their crops.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Just saw it. Weird nobody else is discussing the interpretation.

Spoiler

There is no witch. They're all hallucinating from the fungus that's destroying their crops.

Probably because this is the first time I've heard it, and nothing in the film supports it.

 

[jblank83]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with an interpretation of a scene as strongly as I do this one. That is absolutely not being implied. He transitions from terrors and visions to joining in his family's prayer, and from pain to peace when he speaks of seeing Christ. There's nothing sexual there at all.

Spiritual ecstasy has often been likened to a sexual experience. Given the story before this, that of the sexual temptation/interaction with the witch in the woods, I'd say it's not a wholly unjustified interpretation.

However I would say it is not an explicit orgasm but a sublimated spiritual elevation. He is a relatively but not wholly "pure" being. He is a child in the middle of puberty, conflicted and torn between faith and temptation, a fact depicted time and again throughout the film, being lifted into heaven, leaving behind the physical. The tension between the spiritual and physical is further exemplified by the altruistic family prayer ring juxtaposed against the "bestial/witch" nature of the fully tainted children in the background.

Really I think it works on a couple of levels, not just one.


EDIT: Oh, look at the date on that post... oh, that post right afterwards... Okie dokie.

 

[Steamlord]

Just saw it. Weird nobody else is discussing the interpretation.

Spoiler

There is no witch. They're all hallucinating from the fungus that's destroying their crops.

It's been discussed. It's just kind of a boring interpretation and there's not much to discuss beyond the contents of your spoiler tag.

 

[Fuu]

Just saw it. Weird nobody else is discussing the interpretation.

Spoiler

There is no witch. They're all hallucinating from the fungus that's destroying their crops.

near the beginning the witch is introduced with a solo scene of her killing the baby, making and applying the flying ointment with his blood on herself, then starting to fly away outside. for that theory to work the movie would have to be implying the viewers are also allucinating from the fungus.

edit- a side note of something people tend to miss: she also masturbates with the stick, which is part of real life witch lore and a particularly sick detail in that scene.

 

[Kayhan]

Every time this thread gets bumped because someone new watched this amazing movie a fallen angel gets its wings.

 

[mantidor]

Spiritual ecstasy has often been likened to a sexual experience. Given the story before this, that of the sexual temptation/interaction with the witch in the woods, I'd say it's not a wholly unjustified interpretation.

However I would say it is not an explicit orgasm but a sublimated spiritual elevation. He is a relatively but not wholly "pure" being. He is a child in the middle of puberty, conflicted and torn between faith and temptation, a fact depicted time and again throughout the film, being lifted into heaven, leaving behind the physical. The tension between the spiritual and physical is further exemplified by the altruistic family prayer ring juxtaposed against the "bestial/witch" nature of the fully tainted children in the background.

Really I think it works on a couple of levels, not just one.


EDIT: Oh, look at the date on that post... oh, that post right afterwards... Okie dokie.

Well if anything I also thought it was very explicitly sexual. He talks about kisses and touching and I swear Caleb even ejaculates, it's subtle but it's there. It was rather disturbing because he was talking about Jesus, so it was kind of a mockery and "blasphemy" about religion. It did remind me something out of the exorcist, when Reagan "masturbates" with the cross, but that one is much more violent and obvious. Here it was more about giving the family and the audience a bit of hope and then crushing it. His monologue started as a religious one but it quickly devolved into something really odd and unsettling, and definitely sexual.

Edit: ok this discussion was going for quite some time and I missed it... Heh... I would love to hear more about the commentary of Egers, I mean if he said it was difficult to explain to the child actor the implication of his scene it does support the idea it was sexual in nature.

 

[More_Badass]

This video is a pretty good analysis of the movie, and presents an interesting interpretation of the film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irv3SN2E9nI

 

[frogger]

I really liked It Follows.

 

[HotHamBoy]

It would be a better horror movie if it was scary. It's just unsettling at best.

 

[highrider]

I tried.. It is just so slow. It's clearly a really high quality film, but if the atmospheric aspect of the film doesn't grab you it doesn't have anything else.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Not being edgy but this movie barely passes for horror. I did enjoy it somewhat for what it was though. I also wonder if it's possible to watch a movie with English actors who haven't starred in Game of Thrones. I honestly couldn't unsee it, especiall because I found the mother's role to be similar to her's in GoT.

 

[Staccat0]

Horror =/= scary.

Like it or don't like it for whatever reasons you want, but people who complain that horror movies aren't scary simply don't like horror as a genre.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Horror =/= scary.

What? Horror movies absolutely have to be scary.

 

[Brian_FETO]

The slow, satanic destruction of a secluded family in the spooky woods isn't horror? Come on

Nothing wrong with not digging it, but it is undeniably horror

 

[More_Badass]

What? Horror movies absolutely have to be scary.

Scary for you, or scary for the characters?

 

[Dmax3901]

I watched this again with a couple of friends who hadn't yet, was a blast, they both loved it.

Definitely my favourite horror movie in years and years.

As for the scene with Caleb, for me it's religious/spiritual ecstasy of 'seeing' Christ, not sexual.