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[More_Badass]

Yeah, I think The Witch is probably the best movie I've seen that makes the forest seem scary and threatening. They're doomed from the start and they never realize it until it's too late. They never conquer the woods and they never feel safe; it always looks like they're barely surviving.

 

[Reg]

Great post, GhaleonEB. Rock solid horror movie. Too bad some in this thread didn't enjoy it.

 

[The Beard]

I might've liked it if I could hear/understand the dialogue. I watched it at someone else's house who doesn't have the best audio setup. It's a Bose surround sound but we're sitting 20' from the Center speaker. Everything they said just kind of blended together, those accents and that form of English certainly didn't help.

It was beautifully shot though.

 

[obin_gam]

I re-watched The Witch last night, my first since I saw it in theaters earlier this year. Still incredibly effective slow burning horror, with a palpable feeling of dread throughout. But seeing it for a second time, I started to tune into other aspects of the film, thinking about how that feeling of steady menace.

It's been noted before, but this time I really picked up on how the way shots are framed and lit contribute to the the feeling that the family is in constant threat and danger. This is most apparent when looking at how the woods are used as a backdrop continually, where very early on we know the witch resides, but the family does not. Sometimes it's more overt, such as in wider shots make them loom large over the characters, swallowing them:

But it's also used throughout nearly every scene that takes place outdoors. Shots are continually framed so the woods are looming over the characters:

Entire scenes play out not just with the forest as a setting, but as the predominant feature in the frame, a constant reminder of the danger the characters are in, without knowing it.

Even scenes set just outside the house are constantly framed so the woods loom large.

It would have been very easy to film this scene so the characters are seen against the field ahead of them, or with the house or barn in the background. Yet the entire scene is shot so the woods are taking up a quarter or more of the frame in nearly every shot, in a way that's much more subtle than the more overt wide shots that put the emphasis on them. I think it's one of the main ways the feeling of constant dread is maintained through the film, this aura of threat constantly present.

That's during the daytime, but a lot of the film is shot at night, and Eggars uses darkness in much the same way he uses the forest. The family are typically shot as being in a small island of light, surrounded by darkness.

They're always lit so we can see everything we need to with the characters, but they are being swallowed by darkness, literally and figuratively.

He leverages this as the family starts to fall apart, as suspicions grow and fears rise, driving darkness between them.

Shots like this grow subtly as the film progresses, until characters are increasingly isolated from one another, mirroring their fraying relationships. Between the forest in the day, and darkness at night, the family is constantly seen as in danger. They never feel safe. (It's also why showing the witch so early - 7 minutes in - is such a critical narrative choice. We need to know she's real for the woods to become threatening.)

I realize this is probably obvious to most, but it only really struck me how meticulously shot the film was on second viewing. It's relentlessly beautiful, but also as relentlessly oppressive.

It will be on my annual fall watch list for years. Utterly brilliant film.

This post made me even more hyped about his Nosferatu than I was before.
That movie is gonna be fantastically beautiful!

 

[AmaterasuOni]

I might've liked it if I could hear/understand the dialogue. I watched it at someone else's house who doesn't have the best audio setup. It's a Bose surround sound but we're sitting 20' from the Center speaker. Everything they said just kind of blended together, those accents and that form of English certainly didn't help.

It was beautifully shot though.

Use subtitles!

 

[More_Badass]

This post made me even more hyped about his Nosferatu than I was before.
That movie is gonna be fantastically beautiful!

Will be a while before that. I believe he's doing The Knight movie and a TV series on Rasputin first

 

[GhaleonEB]

Use subtitles!

I turned them on during

Spoiler

Caleb's death scene.

, where I wasn't quite making out what he was crying out; it's the one scene in theaters that I struggled with as well. That....was some freaky stuff. But definitely a bit hard to follow.

Yeah, I think The Witch is probably the best movie I've seen that makes the forest seem scary and threatening. They're doomed from the start and they never realize it until it's too late. They never conquer the woods and they never feel safe; it always looks like they're barely surviving.

The scenes of Caleb in the woods are a great highlight for this. It would be easy to film him alone in the woods, looking lost. But he looks utterly helpless, and in grave danger, like he's being smothered by the forest. That whole sequence is so sad.

 

[Jonm1010]

Awesome analysis.

Can't wait to watch this movie again.

Easily the best horror film I have seen in quite some time.

 

[RustyNails]

All good points Ghal. The movie is exquisite when it comes to framing and the use of lighting. The foreboding with forest in the background is terrifying because you know something evil lives there. And there's no recourse to that evil, and that kinda gets my goat (pun intended). Let me explain.

First I'm not sure what unorthodox interpretation of the New Testament William was part of to be banished by the town church.He and his family were pretty devoted Christians, this was abundantly clear. But since the existence of Satan is real, there is no counterweight against him. Meaning, there is nothing the family could have done to not be killed. No relying on the scripture or unwavering faith in Christ could save anyone. It was like watching a multi-car pile up. The family gets banished and they struggle to grow crop. Things do not really start going downhill until the Witch makes the first move. And that was problematic to me. The family's descend into madness was not because of religious hysteria, but because of the Witch taking their sons away. It's how any calvinist, religious family would react. I don't know whether the movie wanted to indict the religious fervor surrounding the Salem witch trials or not, but the point is that the religion of the family is rendered utterly irrelevant despite being such a big part of the film. Now there's the scene of Caleb's epiphany. I took it to show that no matter what evil happens to the family, at least they will be saved after they die. That was the relief against the evil.

Maybe I'm looking for a broader meaning and it's not there. It's still a great (incredibly scary) film and handles the subject of monsters very differently. If there's a movie monster, there is always a way to defeat it whether with a shotgun blast or driving a stake through it's heart. Maybe if the movie only had the witch, it would have made sense overall. The movie could have ended after Thomasin kills her mother. But the existence of Satan means that the connection to religion is truly there. Satan operates by the rules in the scriptures. If you give him your soul (sign his book), he will give you whatever you want. He knows about God, Jesus and all those things. He made all those witches sign his book. He was always there in the form of Black Philip tormenting the family, and no amount of scripture quoting could help them.

 

[mantidor]

This is the real deal, what film making is about. One of the best examples of "show, don't tell".

 

[Haloid1177]

This post made me even more hyped about his Nosferatu than I was before.
That movie is gonna be fantastically beautiful!

He isn't doing the Nosferatu remake though.

 

[Fancy Clown]

He isn't doing the Nosferatu remake though.

He says he still wants to, just probably some time down the line in an indefinite amount of time. He said it would be "disgusting and presumptuous" to do Nosferatu as a sophomore effort.

I hope he does do it, it's a timeless story, has already had one incredibly successful remake, and his style is perfect for it. I'd love to see what he could bring to the table.

 

[More_Badass]

Maybe the genre isn't for me but this did absolutely nothing. Found myself being more annoyed than anything else.

For some reason, I get scared playing horror games than I ever do watching anything on tv and film.

My biggest beef in these films, apart from shots and music being so contrived in its intent to scare the audience, is that there always has to be an explanation behind it all and they all typically fall under the same short spectrum of reasons.

Whatevs, I gave it a shot. It's not a bad movie by any means, just...I don't know. I still await for the day when the genre can do something that is refreshing for a change.

Like I don't know how you can apply those criticisms towards this movie, when it absolutely doesn't try to scare the audience with jump scares and chords, and often shows rather than tells

 

[Turin]

The woods talk reminds me of why this movie was rather visceral for me. I grew up in a trailer surrounded by woods until I was 12(it was just me and my dad). The spookiest horror concept for my young mind was in fact witches. For some reason that really terrified me, the thought of a malevolent crone occupying the woods.

I love it now.

 

[madmook]

The kid going, "baaa baaa" cracks me up every time. Makes the movie a comedy for me.

 

[Megalosaro]

The kid going, "baaa baaa" cracks me up every time. Makes the movie a comedy for me.

Me too. Black Philip is hilarious. Dumb ass looking goat.

 

[angelic]

Hated the whole film, not one redeeming feature. Didn't help that it was Finchy from the office but it was horrible, not even on the same level as It Follows. Awful.

 

[guek]

All good points Ghal. The movie is exquisite when it comes to framing and the use of lighting. The foreboding with forest in the background is terrifying because you know something evil lives there. And there's no recourse to that evil, and that kinda gets my goat (pun intended). Let me explain.

First I'm not sure what unorthodox interpretation of the New Testament William was part of to be banished by the town church.He and his family were pretty devoted Christians, this was abundantly clear. But since the existence of Satan is real, there is no counterweight against him. Meaning, there is nothing the family could have done to not be killed. No relying on the scripture or unwavering faith in Christ could save anyone. It was like watching a multi-car pile up. The family gets banished and they struggle to grow crop. Things do not really start going downhill until the Witch makes the first move. And that was problematic to me. The family's descend into madness was not because of religious hysteria, but because of the Witch taking their sons away. It's how any calvinist, religious family would react. I don't know whether the movie wanted to indict the religious fervor surrounding the Salem witch trials or not, but the point is that the religion of the family is rendered utterly irrelevant despite being such a big part of the film. Now there's the scene of Caleb's epiphany. I took it to show that no matter what evil happens to the family, at least they will be saved after they die. That was the relief against the evil.

Maybe I'm looking for a broader meaning and it's not there. It's still a great (incredibly scary) film and handles the subject of monsters very differently. If there's a movie monster, there is always a way to defeat it whether with a shotgun blast or driving a stake through it's heart. Maybe if the movie only had the witch, it would have made sense overall. The movie could have ended after Thomasin kills her mother. But the existence of Satan means that the connection to religion is truly there. Satan operates by the rules in the scriptures. If you give him your soul (sign his book), he will give you whatever you want. He knows about God, Jesus and all those things. He made all those witches sign his book. He was always there in the form of Black Philip tormenting the family, and no amount of scripture quoting could help them.

The theology is really fascinating but deftly handled in a way that doesn't ever feel like proselytizing. That alone was a remarkable feat. After some though thought, I've come to the conclusion that Thomasin is the only one who is unequivocally damned at the end of the movie.

Seeing as how it's a New England folktale, it's supposed to be a story that acts as a warning. The period setting and the introduction explains most of how that works. Being exiled to the woods and being cut off from the church and your community was, at the time, as close to excommunication as you could get without actually being formally excommunicated. The family is cut off from the body of Christ and left to fend for themselves in the woods. The mother continually questions whether or not they are cursed and that's a big clue. The answer is absolutely yes, having been cut off from the church, they've been cut off from God. They pray and pray but God does not answer and ultimately all become victims of the Witch who is conduit for Satan.

However, the reason I say only Thomasin is damned for sure is because of the conversation the father has with Caleb in the woods. Caleb is worried that his baby brother is now burning in hell but his father assures him that's not something they can determine. In true accordance with the Calvinist teachings of the time, the father affirms that the baby's soul has been predestined by God and all they can do is pray on his behalf. The movie doesn't give any reason to question this theology. I had initially believed Caleb's death scene was the Devil or the Witch taunting the family but on second thought, I think it's more likely that it's genuine. Caleb dies and is embraced by God on his deathbed as an obedient christian servant. The father's death is likewise a moment of repentance. The movie makes a strong point to emphasize his prowess with an axe but instead of lashing out against black Phillip, he uses his last moments to recognize he's a child of corruption/sin and accepts death. Thomasin is the only one who goes as far as inviting Satan into her life. What's really eerie, and I think a core component of the folktale's moral, is that all their prayers went unheeded while cut off from God but Thomasin's first prayer to the Devil is answered immediately. On top of that, Satan literally guides her hand as she writes her name in his book. God was never available to give such direct assistance no matter how much they prayed.

The mother is in all honesty probably damned as well, she forsakes God in a roundabout way when she talks about feeling abandoned and no longer able to feel God's love in her life. I hesitate to say for certain though because like I said, Thomasin is the only one who writes her name in the book of the Devil. After that, there's no possible way her name could be in the book of Life, but that possibility was still there in spite of everything for the mother and the twins.

 

[The Beard]

Use subtitles!

I really dislike subtitles. It's a major distraction for me, especially because I'm kind of a slow reader. It's hard to enjoy the cinematography and actors expressions when you're reading the whole time.

 

[Azzanadra]

This movie fucked me up man, many sleepless nights followed my initial viewing. Every time I closed my eyes and lull into sleep, a few moments later I would suddenly jump awake. It wasn't even a specific piece of imagery or scene, just the idea of the movie was enough to make me cower in fear.

 

[More_Badass]

Que? I made no mention of jump scares. The means to an end alone do not matter if the end is ineffective. All elements of a film have to work cohesively and I am certainly not going to like it by default on account of a lack of exposition per se.

This comment

My biggest beef in these films, apart from shots and music being so contrived in its intent to scare the audience

seems to imply stuff like jump scares and the common stuff that horror movies use to scare and startle

What kinds of shots and music were you talking about then?

 

[Clear]

Maybe the genre isn't for me but this did absolutely nothing. Found myself being more annoyed than anything else.

Did nothing for me either. Was well shot, acting was mostly decent but the script I thought was pretty poor. There was no poetry to the period language making it seem more like an affectation than something that contributed to the feel of the piece.

Characters were largely unsympathetic making it hard to invest in their fates, not that it mattered particularly when it all played out so routinely, with no "out" offered to setup dramatic tension.

Another indie-horror dud. Genre is in a sad state when weak fare like this is considered among the years best.

 

[More_Badass]

Did nothing for me either. Was well shot, acting was mostly decent but the script I thought was pretty poor. There was no poetry to the period language making it seem more like an affectation than something that contributed to the feel of the piece.

Characters were largely unsympathetic making it hard to invest in their fates, not that it mattered particularly when it all played out so routinely, with no "out" offered to setup dramatic tension.

Another indie-horror dud. Genre is in a sad state when weak fare like this is considered among the years best.

Just because you consider something overrated and weak fare doesn't make it so. It just means you don't enjoy the movie.

How exactly is this movie's structure routine, and why was an out necessary? In most movies, they would have had their faith tested but their belief would have protected them, we'd see a lot of POV shots of the witch watching from the woods, and there would be so many jump scares of witches in the shadows. The fact that there isn't an out is what makes it so effective. They were doomed from the start. We know it long before they did; the whole movie is like watching a car crash as the family is destroyed from within and without.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I meant to include this shot in my post from the other day.

I like the composition, but also the visual metaphor of Black Phillip aligned with the forest, the children with the house, and the partially constructed building between. As if it's decaying as it grows closer to the woods. That way lies death.

 

[Clear]

Just because you consider something overrated and weak fare doesn't make it so. It just means you don't enjoy the movie.

How exactly is this movie's structure routine, and why was an out necessary? In most movies, they would have had their faith tested but their belief would have protected them, we'd see a lot of POV shots of the witch watching from the woods, and there would be so many jump scares of witches in the shadows. The fact that there isn't an out is what makes it so effective. They were doomed from the start. We know it long before they did; the whole movie is like watching a car crash as the family is destroyed from within and without.

Believe it or not, I wanted to like the movie. I thought the initial trial/expulsion scene was impressive, and I liked the cinematography throughout.

However, I felt it was just not particularly good. As I wrote, the characters I found uninteresting and unsympathetic, meaning that I really couldn't care less about their fates. As to the lack of an "out"; consider Scatman Crothers' character in The Shining. Although he also serves as an expository mouthpiece to lay out Danny's titular psychic ability, that character's main function is to provide a fake "escape" route - offering the hope of salvation that is subsequently thwarted when he meets Jack's axe.

Point being by presenting two possible outcomes, there's dramatic tension. Something you never get in The Witch because the whole story plays out in isolation. A problem further exascerbated by the whole supernatural aspect playing out without any sort of discernable motive or setup. In The Witch, the way the plot developed felt arbitrary and thoughtless to me, it just trots out tropes rather than develops into an actual tale.

Example; The Bell Witch legend, a classic "true" American ghost story I remember reading from my childhood: Farmer tending his cornfield takes a shot at what he thinks is a cat or some other animal perched on a fence-post, but it isn't that at all and in so doing he brings down the wrath of the spirits of the land on himself and his family...

Simple set-up, but it invokes a sense of dread and mystery, and drama too, because its inadvertent.

In The Witch, the baby gets taken. Why? How? And how does that lead to Black Philip the demonic goat offering faustian deals?

To me, its just tropes lazily strung together. I'm not saying everything needs to be pedantically laid-out to the audience, just that a bit of focus sharpens the drama. Its like the difference between Alien and Prometheus; in the former the monster develops unexpectedly but along a clear through-line of escalating threat. In the latter its feels arbitrary and random because you need a flowchart to connect the dots between the varying forms.

Anyway, sorry this is rambling but its nearly 5am and I'm "typing" this thing on a keyboardless pc using a mouse. (PITA)

If you liked the movie, great. Just saying it didn't work for me at all. I didn't find it the least bit scary or unsettling, mostly irritating because I found it to be not even a good tale of the supernatural - just a collection of traditional tropes and archetypes.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Believe it or not, I wanted to like the movie. I thought the initial trial/expulsion scene was impressive, and I liked the cinematography throughout.

However, I felt

Damn, I hate cliffhanger endings.

 

[starchild excalibur]

All of it. It is just another film deliberately designed to evoke a sense of fear and dread. I guess the point I am making is that I cannot suspend my disbelief in a movie like this that was thought of, written, and then shot with the sole purpose of unnerving me knowing its all pretend, hence my comment about why the genre may not be for me.

Exposition or no, it is still all deliberate at the end of the day.

I wasn't the biggest fan of the film, but complaining that a horror film is "deliberately designed to evoke a sense of fear and dread" is like complaining that a comedy is deliberately designed to evoke laughter. The whole point of filmmaking - and this extends into video game design - is to evoke a certain emotion from its viewer/player.

You're right - maybe the genre just isn't for you.

 

[phazedplasma]

You're right - maybe the genre just isn't for you.

It sounds like movies in general aren't for him. His argument can basically be applied to any movie.

 

[guek]

Did nothing for me either. Was well shot, acting was mostly decent but the script I thought was pretty poor. There was no poetry to the period language making it seem more like an affectation than something that contributed to the feel of the piece.

Characters were largely unsympathetic making it hard to invest in their fates, not that it mattered particularly when it all played out so routinely, with no "out" offered to setup dramatic tension.

Another indie-horror dud. Genre is in a sad state when weak fare like this is considered among the years best.

What do you consider "strong" examples of the genre?

 

[RustyNails]

Believe it or not, I wanted to like the movie. I thought the initial trial/expulsion scene was impressive, and I liked the cinematography throughout.

However, I felt

Black Phillip got him

 

[mantidor]

I meant to include this shot in my post from the other day.

I like the composition, but also the visual metaphor of Black Phillip aligned with the forest, the children with the house, and the partially constructed building between. As if it's decaying as it grows closer to the woods.

Good catch, I really need to rewatch it.

This is the thing with horror as a genre, since the idea is to scare or shock you most of the most ardent fans just eventually become desensitized to things and look for more and more extreme experiences. This doesn't happen with things like comedy or dramas, it's actually the opposite. That is really why horror will always be in a "sad state" for many of its fans, which is a shame really. Even if we get a good movie like this one and they know objectively is well made from any angle you review, the movie is still going to be "boring" in terms of horror for them.

 

[Clear]

Good catch, I really need to rewatch it.

This is the thing with horror as a genre, since the idea is to scare or shock you most of the most ardent fans just eventually become desensitized to things and look for more and more extreme experiences. This doesn't happen with things like comedy or dramas, it's actually the opposite. That is really why horror will always be in a "sad state" for many of its fans, which is a shame really. Even if we get a good movie like this one and they know objectively is well made from any angle you review, the movie is still going to be "boring" in terms of horror for them.

I think you'll find that one of the first thing that gets "old" is extremity and transgressiveness for its own sake. Not to labour the point, but none of my beefs with The Witch would have been solved with gallons of gore or other shock elements. Its the writing.

More specifically its story structure, the balance between straight drama and the more fanciful supernatural elements, and ultimately delivering a strong pay-off.

 

[mantidor]

I think you'll find that one of the first thing that gets "old" is extremity and transgressiveness for its own sake. Not to labour the point, but none of my beefs with The Witch would have been solved with gallons of gore or other shock elements. Its the writing.

More specifically its story structure, the balance between straight drama and the more fanciful supernatural elements, and ultimately delivering a strong pay-off.

I actually get your point, the movie does not "fool around" so to speak, its a straight path, it shows us what is going to happen in the first five minutes and never deviates, it only turns up the volume over and over, I get people who don't enjoy that, but I like it, you focus on other elements more like cinematography, music, environment, simple stories are enjoyable in that way and this movie delivered in all those fronts. It kind of reminds of Grave of the Fireflies, a complete different beast of course but it's structured similarly, there are no story twists, you know what will happen, you just wish it wouldn't.


My comment about gore and shock was more of a general critic of the horror fandom.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Hated the whole film, not one redeeming feature. Didn't help that it was Finchy from the office but it was horrible, not even on the same level as It Follows. Awful.

Two very different forms of horror. Awful comparison.

It's like comparing Eraserhead to Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

 

[Clear]

you know what will happen, you just wish it wouldn't

Thanks, that far my concisely gets my point across than my terrible waffly post.

Call me a stickler, but I think its really important that the storyteller offers at least a single plausible alternative conclusion to the tale. Because if they don't, its strikes me that what you get is either a predictable climactic sequence of events that invites the audience to disengage, or a sudden deus-ex-machina reversal out of nowhere which risks seeming contrived and/or unconvincing .

Neither of these approaches I think are particularly good (screen-)writing, yet it seems like most of these highly-touted indie horror pictures play out this way.

 

[More_Badass]

Thanks, that far my concisely gets my point across than my terrible waffly post.

Call me a stickler, but I think its really important that the storyteller offers at least a single plausible alternative conclusion to the tale. Because if they don't, its strikes me that what you get is either a predictable climactic sequence of events that invites the audience to disengage, or a sudden deus-ex-machina reversal out of nowhere which risks seeming contrived and/or unconvincing .

Neither of these approaches I think are particularly good (screen-)writing, yet it seems like most of these highly-touted indie horror pictures play out this way.

The whole alternate conclusion/ "maybe it's this, but maybe it's not" kind of explanation in horror movies is probably even more predictable and anticlimactic than actually playing a premise straight. It's just the worst. Not doing that is a strength, not a weakness IMO.

For example, imagine if the movie had tried to make it seem like the witch and what had happened was just hallucinations or that the family was just crazy. That robs the woods and the witch of its immediate ever-present threat. For half or most of the movie, we'd be trying to figure out if it's real or just madness, rather than the tension and looming dread of us knowing that that something grotesquely horrible is actually really out there and they don't. It's no longer a story of family being torn about by their own vices and by the evil surrounding them; it's maybe that or a crazy family in the woods going insane from isolation and madness.

 

[guek]

Thanks, that far my concisely gets my point across than my terrible waffly post.

Call me a stickler, but I think its really important that the storyteller offers at least a single plausible alternative conclusion to the tale. Because if they don't, its strikes me that what you get is either a predictable climactic sequence of events that invites the audience to disengage, or a sudden deus-ex-machina reversal out of nowhere which risks seeming contrived and/or unconvincing .

Neither of these approaches I think are particularly good (screen-)writing, yet it seems like most of these highly-touted indie horror pictures play out this way.

This is so arbitrary. You haven't constructed a criticism, you've created a prerequisite against which you can judge the film instead of considering its actual merits. Movies don't "have" to do anything other than be good. If a movie doesn't work for you, it's not because it didn't follow the precise story structure you desire, it's usually for other actual reasons you're not articulating. Why do you think these types of movies you're disparaging are so highly regarded and why do you disagree? Is it really because it doesn't follow the formula you personally prefer? Because if so, that says much more about your particular tastes than it does about the subjective qualities of the films in question.

 

[HiiiLife]

Movie sucked.

 

[More_Badass]

Movie sucked.

What were you expecting? You had certain expectations going into the movie, but it wasn't what you expected

 

[Clear]

Why do you think these types of movies you're disparaging are so highly regarded and why do you disagree?

Because I'm older and have more refined tastes. Not necessarily better taste, but after 40 plus years of being into the genre I know what works for me and what doesn't.

Most likely a generational thing.

 

[Steamlord]

Millennials just don't get why The Witch is a bad movie

 

[Clear]

Millennials just don't get why The Witch is a bad movie

LOL.

Seriously though, when I first got into the genre the books and critics I read mainained a consensus that Hammer/AIP stuff was trash, and that the "true" golden age was that of Universal and RKO.

A decade or therabouts later, Hammer/AIP was the new golden era, and the Italian gore and stalk-and-slasher pics spawned by Halloween/F13 etc. were the worthless trash.

This is just how it works, plenty of genre luminaries (Clive Barker, King, etc.) have noted the way horror reinvents itself generationally.

 

[RustyNails]

The theology is really fascinating but deftly handled in a way that doesn't ever feel like proselytizing. That alone was a remarkable feat. After some though thought, I've come to the conclusion that Thomasin is the only one who is unequivocally damned at the end of the movie.

Seeing as how it's a New England folktale, it's supposed to be a story that acts as a warning. The period setting and the introduction explains most of how that works. Being exiled to the woods and being cut off from the church and your community was, at the time, as close to excommunication as you could get without actually being formally excommunicated. The family is cut off from the body of Christ and left to fend for themselves in the woods. The mother continually questions whether or not they are cursed and that's a big clue. The answer is absolutely yes, having been cut off from the church, they've been cut off from God. They pray and pray but God does not answer and ultimately all become victims of the Witch who is conduit for Satan.

I agree that Thomasin is probably the damned because she made the pact. My conclusion was that this family, despite the fear of fire and brimstone and harshly technical rules of Calvinism (baby didn't get baptized so its in hell!!), they were "good people". My problem is that the mechanics of the plot weren't clear. Like for example, I want to know why the word of gospels had absolutely no damn effect? Why did Black Phillip "choose" this family, knowing that they were pretty fundamental Christians? My view is that if Satan and book of the devil exists, that means the ability to ward off Satan should also exist. He operates within the internal logic of the Bible (or Torah or Quran, where ever he's mentioned but since we're focusing on New Testament, he should operate by it's laws). You can't just have say a Zombie and shooting in it's head doesn't work. Or a Vampire but garlic and stake through the heart doesn't work.

 

[More_Badass]

I agree that Thomasin is probably the damned because she made the pact. My conclusion was that this family, despite the fear of fire and brimstone and harshly technical rules of Calvinism (baby didn't get baptized so its in hell!!), they were "good people". My problem is that the mechanics of the plot weren't clear. Like for example, I want to know why the word of gospels had absolutely no damn effect? Why did Black Phillip "choose" this family, knowing that they were pretty fundamental Christians? My view is that if Satan and book of the devil exists, that means the ability to ward off Satan should also exist. He operates within the internal logic of the Bible (or Torah or Quran, where ever he's mentioned but since we're focusing on New Testament, he should operate by it's laws). You can't just have say a Zombie and shooting in it's head doesn't work. Or a Vampire but garlic and stake through the heart doesn't work.

Who knows? This is what people believed back then. The director based a lot of this on direct sources from the time

But in the story, just because they believe these things doesn't mean it's true or will help them. Clearly, it doesn't help them so why are you assuming that it should?

 

[guek]

I agree that Thomasin is probably the damned because she made the pact. My conclusion was that this family, despite the fear of fire and brimstone and harshly technical rules of Calvinism (baby didn't get baptized so its in hell!!), they were "good people". My problem is that the mechanics of the plot weren't clear. Like for example, I want to know why the word of gospels had absolutely no damn effect? Why did Black Phillip "choose" this family, knowing that they were pretty fundamental Christians? My view is that if Satan and book of the devil exists, that means the ability to ward off Satan should also exist. He operates within the internal logic of the Bible (or Torah or Quran, where ever he's mentioned but since we're focusing on New Testament, he should operate by it's laws). You can't just have say a Zombie and shooting in it's head doesn't work. Or a Vampire but garlic and stake through the heart doesn't work.

I think it's the cautionary folktale aspect as to why nothing works for them. They were ostracized from their community. The moral is don't rock the boat.

 

[RustyNails]

Who knows? This is what people believed back then. The director based a lot of this on direct sources from the time

But in the story, just because they believe these things doesn't mean it's true or will help them. Clearly, it doesn't help them so why are you assuming that it should?

But in the story, Satan is true, no? Believing is one thing, but actual existence is another. If Satan is true, things that keep Satan away are also true. I simply think that adding Satan gives a new dynamic to the whole movie which for me at least gave rise to a bunch of questions. Dont get me wrong, Satan's portrayal froze my blood. I'm glad he was in the movie. But I guess I wanted to ask him why didn't any of their prayers worked.

 

[Monocle]

I'm firmly convinced that people who think this is a bad movie either don't understand what makes a movie good, or have no idea how to separate their personal impressions from film analysis.

I re-watched The Witch last night, my first since I saw it in theaters earlier this year.

<snip>

Great post!

 

[Seductivpancakes]

But in the story, Satan is true, no? Believing is one thing, but actual existence is another. If Satan is true, things that keep Satan away are also true. I simply think that adding Satan gives a new dynamic to the whole movie which for me at least gave rise to a bunch of questions. Dont get me wrong, Satan's portrayal froze my blood. I'm glad he was in the movie. But I guess I wanted to ask him why didn't any of their prayers worked.

That's what I thought as well, which lead me to wonder if they were exiled cause of some sort of sin that the community found deplorable.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Great post!

I normally don't quote myself, but I just wanted reiterate how much I love this shot. You can draw a vertical line down the center of it, and split it almost perfectly into the side with the kids and intact buildings, and the half with the forest, Black Phillip, and the destroyed portion of the building in the background. Humanity on one side, death and destruction on the other. And I know I'll be noticing more and more of these kind of shots the more I see the film.

But in the story, Satan is true, no? Believing is one thing, but actual existence is another. If Satan is true, things that keep Satan away are also true. I simply think that adding Satan gives a new dynamic to the whole movie which for me at least gave rise to a bunch of questions. Dont get me wrong, Satan's portrayal froze my blood. I'm glad he was in the movie. But I guess I wanted to ask him why didn't any of their prayers worked.

My interpretation, and this is just based on the film as I'm not familiar with Puritanical beliefs, is yes, if Satan was real, then God is real too. But this version of God let things play out and saved those who were faithful in the afterlife. I have no idea how in line that is with their Puritan beliefs, but that's how I took it, in large part informed by what Caleb says as he's dying. Caleb's death scene had him lifting the curse from himself through prayer (aided by his family), and then he saw a vision of Christ, who took him into his arms - and then he passed away. I think his faith saved him.

The father's faith saves him, too. His prayer the night before his death was one of repentance and humility. After Black Phillip gores him, he picks up an axe to fight back...and then drops it, reciting prayer (or scripture? not sure) instead. He drops his mortal weapons and relies on his faith. God does not save him from death, but I interpret that action as saving him in the afterlife.

This is also why it's so important that Thomasin hears her father's prayer the night before. She knows how deep his faith runs, but that it did not save him from being killed. Her faith was not nearly as strong - and she wanted to live, to experience carnal pleasures. It's critical to understanding why she would choose to sign the book.

 

[cj_iwakura]

But in the story, Satan is true, no? Believing is one thing, but actual existence is another. If Satan is true, things that keep Satan away are also true. I simply think that adding Satan gives a new dynamic to the whole movie which for me at least gave rise to a bunch of questions. Dont get me wrong, Satan's portrayal froze my blood. I'm glad he was in the movie. But I guess I wanted to ask him why didn't any of their prayers worked.

Presumably, in context of the film, because they're beyond His reach by venturing away from the village.