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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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FeD.nL

Member
Just got an E-mail from my school that the 19 year old Dutch-American boy was studying here. He was born in New York and would return to his mom after his study. He was en route with his father to Bali for their holiday together..

The scum should be punished. That and the video where one of the so-called freedom fighters is stealing a wedding ring from a body.. I was exploding when I saw that.
 

Magni

Member
First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Again - there are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft and just because you know how to operate one of those ways doesn't mean that you know how to operate all of them.

Anyway, for that troop transport - and I quote - either "stinger-like" missiles were used or a "large-calibre machine gun" according to Ukraine government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849435

Which means no BUK. If they had any hint about a BUK, they wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't) have allowed any airplane to fly over that area at 30.000 feet. It's as simple as that.

Sorry if my tone is getting on my nerves. Why are you quoting an article from over a month ago when I'm talking about a transport plane that was downed last week? I don't know if you're stupid or if you have an agenda, but you're not fooling anyone by mixing up planes and dates.
 
Seems to spend some time talking on what the passengers must have been thinking and doing before the plane hit the ground which surprised me.

I thought it had been pretty much accepted that they died instantaneously when the missile hit. Firstly because no distress signals were sent and even if people didn't die from the missile somehow then the freezing temperatures, drop of air pressure and loss of oxygen would have got them so quickly that there wouldn't have been time to react.

That still sounds like a horrible way to die.
 
Those French mistrals are fantastic pieces of kit, they shouldn't have much issues selling them on, fuck that, the MOD should bring out their credit card and sign for them...they're ideal for the types of operations the Royal Navy is building itself up for in the future.
 
Those French mistrals are fantastic pieces of kit, they shouldn't have much issues selling them on, fuck that, the MOD should bring out their credit card and sign for them...they're ideal for the types of operations the Royal Navy is building itself up for in the future.

Now THAT would be some assertive foreign policy by the UK: buying the ships out under their noses!

Is that what they call "gunboat diplomacy"?
sorry
 

kess

Member
Investigators are saying that there are significantly less bodies on the train than they were told by the separatists - more than 80 bodies are unaccounted for.
 

Amalthea

Banned
Investigators are saying that there are significantly less bodies on the train than they were told by the separatists - more than 80 bodies are unaccounted for.
I was kinda expecting this. They propably held some corpses back for further ransoming.

I mean that's as vile and low as something those guys would do.
 
Those French mistrals are fantastic pieces of kit, they shouldn't have much issues selling them on, fuck that, the MOD should bring out their credit card and sign for them...they're ideal for the types of operations the Royal Navy is building itself up for in the future.

These big-ticket arms deals usually have quid pro quo attached. What are the French buying from the Russians or what deal was cut along with the sale?
 
These big-ticket arms deals usually have quid pro quo attached. What are the French buying from the Russians or what deal was cut along with the sale?

Russia is desperate to modernise its ancient military, 700bn dollars was earmarked for it and believe it or not that was a modest budget which relied massively on Ukrainian suppliers (now potentially irrevocably fucked) and western (European) arms manufacturers. Our firms got contracts, Russia got capability without utterly bankrupting the country like the former Soviet Union.
 
Russia is desperate to modernise its ancient military, 700bn dollars was earmarked for it and believe it or not that was a modest budget which relied massively on Ukrainian suppliers (now potentially irrevocably fucked) and western (European) arms manufacturers. Our firms got contracts, Russia got capability without utterly bankrupting the country like the former Soviet Union.
Its clear there was industry benefit in France, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't tied to something else.
December 29, 2010
The French overcame competition from Spanish, Dutch and South Korean firms. A major attraction of the French bid was that it was free of American components, licenses or technology, Russian officials said.

The deal was struck after tortuous negotiations lasting 18 months between Paris and Moscow. Serious talks began in 2009 shortly after France rejoined NATO's military network; French President Charles de Gaulle had withdrawn the country's forces from the alliance's command in 1966.

A sticking point in the negotiations had been France's initial refusal to agree to the ships to be fitted with state-of-the-art command-and-control technology.

The Russians told journalists that their "interests in this area had been satisfied" and that Russia would receive the technology to produce the Mistral's command-and-control system itself.
[...]
North Atlantic Treaty Organization countries along the Baltic Sea are said to be worried, notably Poland and the Baltic states. An unnamed diplomat from one of these countries told Le Monde newspaper: "The damage to France's image is considerable. The capital of political sympathy that Nicolas Sarkozy has garnered since 2007 in these regions has disappeared with this Mistral business."

Attempting to allay such fears, Nikolai Makarov, head of Russia's Armed Forces General Staff, told the Moscow Times that the ships would be deployed in the Pacific to defend the Kuril Islands, whose ownership is fiercely disputed by Japan.
[...]
Sarkozy claimed credit for brokering a cease-fire and a Russian withdrawal from Georgia after Moscow sent troops deep into the country during a five-day war in August 2008.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/29/world/la-fg-france-warships-20101230
 
How many corpses would be intact?

Is it more likely they would tear apart either from the explosions or from hitting the ground or for them to be intact?
 

Mr.Mike

Member
How many corpses would be intact?

Is it more likely they would tear apart either from the explosions or from hitting the ground or for them to be intact?

At this point they'd be pretty rotted anyway. I'm afraid that in the end they're not going to be able to return the bodies to their respective families...
 

CHEEZMO™

Obsidian fan
Russia is desperate to modernise its ancient military, 700bn dollars was earmarked for it and believe it or not that was a modest budget which relied massively on Ukrainian suppliers (now potentially irrevocably fucked) and western (European) arms manufacturers.

Makes you wonder. Where is much of Russia's military materiel manufactured? Where abouts are these manufacturing centres located?
 

Tugatrix

Member
How many corpses would be intact?

Is it more likely they would tear apart either from the explosions or from hitting the ground or for them to be intact?

most of them, the main damages to the bodies are internal(blast wave), except the ones in the area that missile hit.
 

filopilo

Member
We already know 100% that american doesn't want to sit ,talk or discuss.Neither the tensions to cool down.

maybe they want war:

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-leads-republicans-war-russia.html

http://journal-neo.org/2014/07/19/legislating-the-way-to-world-war-3/

IMO ,this is insane.The signal/noise ratio must absolutely be tuned all the way up.

And europe must ignore the american pressure , and start discussing a same sane voice with Russia.
 

Earendil

Member
We already know 100% that american doesn't want to sit ,talk or discuss.Neither the tensions to cool down.

maybe they want war:

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-leads-republicans-war-russia.html

http://journal-neo.org/2014/07/19/legislating-the-way-to-world-war-3/

IMO ,this is insane.The signal/noise ratio must absolutely be tuned all the way up.

And europe must ignore the american pressure , and start discussing a same sane voice with Russia.

Too bad they would be the only sane voice in the conversation.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Perhaps Canada should make an offer for those French Mistrals, killing two birds with one stone. (Updating some of our ageing fleet, and denying our rival Arctic claimants the ability to do so to theirs)

But really, the EU should ban any and all sale of arms to Russia. Because why would you ever sell someone things that will make it easier for them to bully you?
 

Uzzy

Member
Those French mistrals are fantastic pieces of kit, they shouldn't have much issues selling them on, fuck that, the MOD should bring out their credit card and sign for them...they're ideal for the types of operations the Royal Navy is building itself up for in the future.

Hell, trade the 2nd carrier we're building for them. That'd solve a lot of problems.

But really, the EU should ban any and all sale of arms to Russia. Because why would you ever sell someone things that will make it easier for them to bully you?

Because Russia are only bullying a far off country of which we know nothing. It's not like they're crossing the Rhine or anything. So we may as well take their money!

Seriously though, this is why the EU needs to work more on getting some proper joined up foreign policy. However, putting European interests ahead of national interests is going to be a hard sell for any politician in the current climate.
 
We already know 100% that american doesn't want to sit ,talk or discuss.Neither the tensions to cool down.

maybe they want war:

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-leads-republicans-war-russia.html

http://journal-neo.org/2014/07/19/legislating-the-way-to-world-war-3/

IMO ,this is insane.The signal/noise ratio must absolutely be tuned all the way up.

And europe must ignore the american pressure , and start discussing a same sane voice with Russia.

Name one person who has any importance in Washington who has advocated war against Russia. What an incredibly ignorant post to make, the US is 100% not interested in talking?
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
U.S. to release intelligence on Malaysian plane downing - State Department

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/uk-ukraine-crisis-usa-intelligence-idUKKBN0FR24S20140722

Hopefully this will go a long way towards proving this for certain. At the moment it seems to be based around social media and youtube videos.

Do you agree that the plane was shot down from within the separatist controlled area or not? You seem to be another poster that is pushing the agenda "We don't know what happened, it could be anything".
 

eot

Banned
that obviously depends on the angle of attack and how the warhead works. which is my question: are air-to-air missiles designed to directly hit a target like they show it in Top Gun or will they also detonate in the near vicinity of a target.

Anti-air missiles have proximity detonators. They will attempt to ram the target, but they don't have to. Keep in mind though that they're designed to shoot down fighter jets maneuvering defensively as well as deploying counter measures, hitting an airliner is like hitting a static target.
 
CHEEZMO™;122180413 said:
Makes you wonder. Where is much of Russia's military materiel manufactured? Where abouts are these manufacturing centres located?

A huge (majority) amount of it is still manufactured in Russia. Specifically I'm talking about engines, rotor blades, optics etc. logistical paraphernalia that's utterly vital but not exactly exciting and won't dominate news. The Germans have thousands of contractors over there, us and the French have hundreds. To replace that means whole new tool lines, maintenance, training, factories... The costs balloon like a motherfucker and suddenly white elephants like PAK/FA become ridiculous. Mistral was a fascinating outlier, by buying foreign warships which will form a massive part of their overseas capability they admitted that in terms of navy they're way out of their league and have shit load of catching up to do.

Russia has a GDP and economy on par with one of the big EU nations, and we're struggling with the miltary costs these days and that's with vast inter adaptability within NATO. And I'm the case of the Brits and yanks, something that's unprecedented in history.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
The issue is how economically dependant Germany and, to a lesser extent,France have made themselves to Russia. Oil is more of a deterrent to them than military capability at the moment.

Yes, this is the crux of the economic sanction picture at the moment.

I'd personally be willing to support rationing of gas to divert some to countries dependent on Russia. But I doubt many Americans feel the same way.
 

Chariot

Member
j2pyfDZ40t376.jpg


More of the train. Apparently there are a lot of corpses missing. We're talking not a dozen, we're talking almost a hundred. In Charkow the experts only counted 200 dead bodies instead of the 280 they thought they get.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...eben-nur-200-leichen-in-charkiw-a-982419.html
 
Tomorrow the first bodies will return to the Netherlands. Dutch Prime Minister has declared tomorrow to be a national day of mourning. That hasn't happened for decades.
 
How can anyone in this day and age run out of ammo ?
He isn't kidding, the French in particular just comely ran out of bombs for their air campaign.

Hilariously this led to them using training munitions which sported fully functioning targeting systems, but a warhead filled with concrete instead of explosives.

And the best part is, these bombs were wildly effective for precision strikes on tanks. The concrete warhead would literally flatten the tank, and since there was no explosive charge, collateral damage was much less of an issue.
 

mikeyw85

Banned
Do you agree that the plane was shot down from within the separatist controlled area or not? You seem to be another poster that is pushing the agenda "We don't know what happened, it could be anything".
Yeah, that's what it looks like. I'd agree with that.
 

Tugatrix

Member
He isn't kidding, the French in particular just comely ran out of bombs for their air campaign.

Hilariously this led to them using training munitions which sported fully functioning targeting systems, but a warhead filled with concrete instead of explosives.

And the best part is, these bombs were wildly effective for precision strikes on tanks. The concrete warhead would literally flatten the tank, and since there was no explosive charge, collateral damage was much less of an issue.

So what was initially an embarrassment proved to be very effective? ok then
 

statham

Member

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia "created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists.

The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.

They said they didn't know if any Russians were present at the missile launch, and they wouldn't say that the missile crew was trained in Russia.

A senior official said the most likely explanation was the plane was shot down by mistake.
.
 
How can anyone in this day and age run out of ammo ?

Happens all the time. Hundreds of thousands of bullets are routinely used to kill one insurgent in Iraq. Now add in bombs etc that have to be manufactured and then shipped out you run out of what you took with you.

It's why supply lines are so critically needed because they constantly have to resupply the troops on the ground. Know how they get fuel there to these remote bases in Afghanistan and other places? By way of a helicopter carrying a fuel filled plastic bladder. The amount of fuel delivered barely meets needs of the base since over half of it used in transporting the fuel. As a result of this a gallon of diesel costs the US military over 400 bucks.
 

demolitio

Member
How can anyone in this day and age run out of ammo ?

Libya was a clusterfuck for a reason. :(

Logistics has been overlooked by the majority of the countries to the point where small campaigns become disjointed and unorganized. There's a lot of problems in general on that topic that we talked about in the last thread.
 

Tugatrix

Member
Europe is not fully unified on this.

Germany consumes the bulk of Gazprom gas from Russia in Western Europe.
https://www.gazprom-germania.de/en/business-areas/natural-gas-trading.html

France is sticking to their contract to sell warships to Russia
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/france-sticking-with-warship-sale-the-russians-have-paid-1.1925423


Italy, LOL best friends for life.
berlusconi-putin.jpg

yes, i know Silvio is no longer PM

You're forgetting those Russians billionaires who love spending in London ;)
 
You're forgetting those Russians billionaires who love spending in London ;)
not comparable IMO.

France sticking to their commitment to sell warships to Russia as agreed influences France's stance on Russia.

the UK has been the toughest critic of Russia in all of Europe.

Yeah, there are some Olygarchs in London like Chelsea's owner but they don't have political weight on UK's PM concerning government stances
 

antonz

Member
If anything the oligarchs are fuming at what Putin is doing as it threatens their wealth etc.

The Oligarchs know they cant speak out against Putin though because the ones who do end up losing everything while Putin's bank account suddenly swells.
 
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