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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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Osiris

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Well, add to that the forces that are going to be tasked from the UK, Germany and Malaysia and we're probably going to be looking at anywhere from 300 to 400 total in the security force.

The rebels would be mad to draw them into a fight, but I wouldn't be surprised, pro-seperatist sites are already posting conspiracy theories that the force will be attempting to arrest Strelkov and Borodai.
 

Joey Fox

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Feb 25, 2009
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So what happens if the rebels attack them? I imagine the undercover Russian soldiers would be ordered to avoid a situation, but the harder-to-control cossacks could conceivably do something stupid.
Their mission is to secure the crash site, right? If they're attacked, I would imagine they do whatever is necessary to accomplish that mission. I think it would be localized fighting and there would be international outrage, but all-out war wouldn't break out or anything.
 

brian577

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Good. I guarantee there won't be a single incident, Putin must know those five states are testing him. Kinda glad the they refused help from the US too, don't think they can be completely trusted to follow the Dutch lead.
I really don't think it's wise to test him when it comes to the use of military force. He's clearly insane and locked in a cold war mentality

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/details-revealed-on-putins-dictator-like-private-life/

But those close to him have revealed new details, like his morning routine: a late breakfast, then a solitary swim where assistants suggest "he gets much of Russia's thinking done."

In his office he shuns technology, instead relying on paper documents and Soviet War-era landlines.

"It paints a weird, miserable, sinister, lonely life in which Putin talks to very few people. He's extremely isolated," Judah said.

Putin is obsessed with knowing what the world is saying about him. Aides prepare daily press clippings, and while he rarely uses the Internet, his advisers show him parodies. "He must know how they mock him," sources say.

In reality, Putin has a strained relationship with President Barack Obama and other world leaders. When he travels abroad, he only eats food cleared by the Kremlin. A prep team comes a month in advance.

According to Newsweek, "everything he will need to arrive by the planeload: Russian cooks, Russian cleaners, Russian waiters; the President is indifferent to the offense of the host nation."


He's clung to power ever since becoming president in 2000, even finding a way to side-step term limits with a stint as prime minister, before returning to the presidency four years later.

His inner circle calls him "Tsar," implicitly linking him to the iron-fisted rulers of Russia's past.
 

sangreal

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AP puts a few more cracks in the propaganda machine: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_WHAT_HAPPENED?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

It had been a noisy day in this eastern Ukrainian town, residents recounted. Plenty of military equipment was moving through. But still it was hard to miss the bulky missile system, also known as a Buk M-1. It left deep tread marks in the asphalt as it rumbled by in a small convoy.

The vehicles stopped in front of journalists from The Associated Press. A man wearing unfamiliar fatigues, speaking with a distinctive Russian accent, checked to make sure they weren't filming. The convoy then moved on, destination unknown in the heart of eastern Ukraine's pro-Russia rebellion.

Three hours later, people six miles (10 kilometers) west of Snizhne heard loud noises.

...

A highly placed rebel, speaking to the AP this week, admitted that rebels were responsible. He said a unit based in the hometown of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, made up of both Russians and Ukrainians, was involved in the firing of an SA-11 from near Snizhne. The rebel, who has direct access to the inner circle of the insurgent leadership in Donetsk, said that he could not be named because he was contradicting the rebels' official line.

...
[poor editing -- repeating the same info, but I thought the more detailed description of the unmarked officer was interesting]:
AP journalists saw the Buk moving through town at 1:05 p.m. The vehicle, which carried four 18-foot (5.5-meter) missiles, was in a convoy with two civilian cars.

The convoy stopped. A man in sand-colored camouflage without identifying insignia - different from the green camouflage the rebels normally wear - approached the journalists. The man wanted to make sure they had not recorded any images of the missile launcher. Satisfied that they hadn't, the convoy moved on.
 

Chariot

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How "feel" the term Tsar in russia? Is it more like 'dictator' or more like 'king'? I mean, kings did a whole lot of shit on regular basis, but it's still a positive term.
 

kess

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Aug 3, 2013
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How "feel" the term Tsar in russia? Is it more like 'dictator' or more like 'king'? I mean, kings did a whole lot of shit on regular basis, but it's still a positive term.
Tsar is a transliteration of Caesar, if you're wondering. It goes back to some dynastic marriage involving Ivan the Terrible and some Byzantine princess. The idea was through that marriage, it made Russia a "Third Rome".
 

Chariot

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Tsar is a transliteration of Caesar, if you're wondering. It goes back to some dynastic marriage involving Ivan the Terrible and some Byzantine princess. The idea was through that marriage, it made Russia a "Third Rome".
Yes, but how does it "feel" for russians right now?
 
May 4, 2013
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The billionaires in Russia aren't happy I can tell you, and guess what, Putin needs them.
It's the other way around. If any of the oligarchs dares to cross Putin, he'll destroy them. The oligarchs have anticipated these sanctions for a long time and have long since diversified their assets throughout secret European bank accounts and tax havens.
 

Boem

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About those people besides the highway yesterday: I had to travel with a colleague over that road for work, but we knew it was going to be closed down for the transport of the coffins so we left earlier. We thought we showed up too late because the traffic was insane at one point. It was moving at a snails pace. Turns out we didn't miscalculate, but hundreds of people drove out especially to stand besides the highway to catch a glimpse of the cars with the coffins, holding up traffic for miles. I guess some people might have done it out of respect, but a lot of them were holding fucking picnics. Others brought chairs, parasols. Lots of people preparing their (video)cameras. Fucking disgusting. I don't even care about getting held up in traffic because we were half expecting some lanes to be closed down already (they weren't), but a lot of those people were just there for the spectacle. And man, were there a lot of them. Also a lot of people walking besides the high way (even on a bridge, with very little space between the road and the edge of the bridge), straight up parking the car in the emergency lane, or taking a nice little cycling trip with some friends to find a nice spot for the show. I have to hope that some people honestly wanted to process some feelings or show their respects, but fuck the rest of them.

Edit: To clarify, these people drove there especially for this. This was about 2 hours before the coffins actually arrived. People on the radio were also talking about it as we drove past, with the police urging people not to do it because of the danger. Don't know if they actually tried getting rid of some of them after we passed it, haven't really had time to follow the news since then.
 

Insane Metal

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Holy shit. This year has been awful for aircraft. At least 4 major incidents with many dead. The one from this thread, the other from MA which disappeared in the ocean (or at least that's what we think), the plane at Mali and the other one from this week too (I forgot where).

Goddamn :(
 

Rapstah

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Jul 20, 2009
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Yes, but how does it "feel" for russians right now?
It's still in use as the actual word for "king", as in what you'd use to refer to kings of monarchies and ideological kings like God or Jesus. It's not possible to generally explain how the average Russian-speaker feels about the word because it's an actual word. How does the average American feel about Obama being called "king", if we assume he is? Is it a joke, an insult, or honorific?
 
Jun 29, 2013
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The ceremony (arrival of airplanes and the following transportation to military base) is live on television here right now. So unreal, to see something like this for the fourth day in a row. And still so many bodies unaccounted for. Terrible.
 

Joni

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I really don't think it's wise to test him when it comes to the use of military force. He's clearly insane and locked in a cold war mentality

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/details-revealed-on-putins-dictator-like-private-life/
While no doubt Putin is something else, some of these examples are quite silly. He is a world leader. There is a huge amount of security to be expected.

In his office he shuns technology, instead relying on paper documents and Soviet War-era landlines.
There are several high profile companies and government agencies that have switched to old school technology in response to the NSA scandal. It wouldn't be strange for Russia to have anticipated that. US security is also hard. Obama can't use his iPhone. They forbid the president to use his favorite phone. So aside from his BlackBerry, the only cleared smartphone, he also relies on landlines.

When he travels abroad, he only eats food cleared by the Kremlin. A prep team comes a month in advance.
Obama's team arrives quite in advance too. He also brings along a 900 strong team. They comb even the sewers. It was even outrageous for a city like Brussels that hosts Merkel, Hollande and Cameron on a regular base.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Holy shit. This year has been awful for aircraft. At least 4 major incidents with many dead. The one from this thread, the other from MA which disappeared in the ocean (or at least that's what we think), the plane at Mali and the other one from this week too (I forgot where).

Goddamn :(
Actually this year has exactly the same number of accidents as at the same point last year and the year before. They've just been clustered this year.
 

Gallbaro

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While no doubt Putin is something else, some of these examples are quite silly. He is a world leader. There is a huge amount of security to be expected.


There are several high profile companies and government agencies that have switched to old school technology in response to the NSA scandal. It wouldn't be strange for Russia to have anticipated that. US security is also hard. Obama can't use his iPhone. They forbid the president to use his favorite phone. So aside from his BlackBerry, the only cleared smartphone, he also relies on landlines.
From what I remember W. did not even have email or a computer, everything was hardcopy for political protection.
 

speculawyer

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It's still in use as the actual word for "king", as in what you'd use to refer to kings of monarchies and ideological kings like God or Jesus. It's not possible to generally explain how the average Russian-speaker feels about the word because it's an actual word. How does the average American feel about Obama being called "king", if we assume he is? Is it a joke, an insult, or honorific?
It is an insult. The people saying it don't like Obama and are implying that he is abusing he limited Presidential powers.
 

S¡mon

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Reports are coming from Ukraine that the separatists and the Ukrainian army are fighting at the crash site of MH17.
 

Joni

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From what I remember W. did not even have email or a computer, everything was hardcopy for political protection.
It might have changed, but there was a time where Obama didn't have a desktop in the oval office. If it has changed, Obama would be the first president to have his own computer.
 

Chariot

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S¡mon;122867224 said:
Reports are coming from Ukraine that the separatists and the Ukrainian army are fighting at the crash site of MH17.
Why?
Is that an important strategic waypoint? If the ukrainian army wants to secure the scene of the crime, a military operation isn't the best thing to happen at this place.
 

Sun Bather

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S¡mon;122867224 said:
Reports are coming from Ukraine that the separatists and the Ukrainian army are fighting at the crash site of MH17.
Yeah I heard the reporter say it was too unsafe to go there, as there was fighting still going on around the place.


It might have changed, but there was a time where Obama didn't have a desktop in the oval office. If it has changed, Obama would be the first president to have his own computer.
Well they don't actually work much from the oval office, so makes sense. Look in the Treaty Room on the other hand...
 

Polari

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While no doubt Putin is something else, some of these examples are quite silly. He is a world leader. There is a huge amount of security to be expected.
Pretty much. A number of assassination attempts have been reported over the years.

As for him being isolated from other world leaders, he was/is good mates with Berlusconi (holidaying with each other on several occasions). There's a lot of parallels with Stalin in that article, possibly intentional. Stalin rose late, read heavily about historical Russian leaders, had few close personal relationships and lived in a dacha outside of Moscow.
 

S¡mon

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Why?
Is that an important strategic waypoint? If the ukrainian army wants to secure the scene of the crime, a military operation isn't the best thing to happen at this place.
In recent days, the Ukrainian army has been winning fights all around in Eastern-Ukraine, so it's possible that they are just "pushing trough".

Rumor has it that the Dutch government, today, was planning on announcing to send troops to the crash site, but that the - relatively unexpected - Ukrainian army's push, changed that plan.
 

daxy

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Nov 28, 2011
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Netherlands has announced they are sending 40 Police/Military. I think you can call this Australia and Netherlands calling Russia's hand. Russia will either have to fold or risk a major escalation.

Honestly this is the language Putin speaks and understands the best.
A source would be nice. In any case, what you wrote about the Dutch is false.

The Dutch mission is not military in nature and the group (of sixty) they have sent is unarmed. They are purely there to assist the investigation and the Dutch government has no interest in participating in the ongoing conflict in the area.

http://mobiel.nu.nl/algemeen/3838495/geen-militaire-missie-rampplek-oekraine.html
 

Kinan

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S¡mon;122923882 said:
In recent days, the Ukrainian army has been winning fights all around in Eastern-Ukraine, so it's possible that they are just "pushing trough".

Rumor has it that the Dutch government, today, was planning on announcing to send troops to the crash site, but that the - relatively unexpected - Ukrainian army's push, changed that plan.
Ukrainian army is now surrounding the crash site, so hopefully experts and relatives will be able to visit this sad place soon.
 

Mr.Mike

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Why?
Is that an important strategic waypoint? If the ukrainian army wants to secure the scene of the crime, a military operation isn't the best thing to happen at this place.
I'd imagine they're mostly concerned with cutting off supply lines to Donetsk.

 

Osiris

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Can someone debunk the info/allegations in this video

Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told: http://youtu.be/b67OGUsQC44

Please? Cause I'm scared.
No point debunking it, anyone gullible enough to believe CT bullshit like that is probably already too far gone into lala-land to bring back with common sense and facts.
 

Naked Snake

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CHEEZMO™;123065527 said:
Why are you even watching videos from that channel anyway?
I've liked a few of their videos in the past. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but not all of them are bullshit.

No point debunking it, anyone gullible enough to believe CT bullshit like that is probably already too far gone into lala-land to bring back with common sense and facts.
Try me. I thought the video only mentioned facts (and included links to sources/references in the description)... I posted it because I want to see the counter-argument facts.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't want it to be true. Because that would be a very dark world that I don't want to live in.
 

HelloMeow

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Try me. I thought the video only mentioned facts (and included links to sources/references in the description)... I posted it because I want to see the counter-argument facts.
Lets start with some verifiable evidence for some of those outrageous claims.
 

Durask

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Feb 6, 2012
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Well, add to that the forces that are going to be tasked from the UK, Germany and Malaysia and we're probably going to be looking at anywhere from 300 to 400 total in the security force.

The rebels would be mad to draw them into a fight, but I wouldn't be surprised, pro-seperatist sites are already posting conspiracy theories that the force will be attempting to arrest Strelkov and Borodai.
Think bigger, this is NATO invasion of Mother Russia. lol
 

Ether_Snake

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I've liked a few of their videos in the past. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but not all of them are bullshit.



Try me. I thought the video only mentioned facts (and included links to sources/references in the description)... I posted it because I want to see the counter-argument facts.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't want it to be true. Because that would be a very dark world that I don't want to live in.
The only thing this video says about the actual MA flight is that "Kiev rerouted the flight to go over East Ukraine". First of all, this is bullshit, it's the airline that decides where to go, not Kiev. Second, it would have implied that this would have to be done numerous times until the rebels shot down a plane by accident, which means a lot of airlines would have had to be "rerouted". So the whole idea is stupid.

It completely relies on this idea that Ukraine decided where the plane should fly, which is false.

If you want to know why airplanes were flying over East Ukraine: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-why-planes-fly-over-warzones-9615967.html
 

kess

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Ukraine's parliament just passed a bill giving the Dutch and Australians joint control over the MH17 crash site, with the power to defend themselves if necessary.

External download of the text (RTF)

Relevant portions:

1.1 The multinational International Mission for Protection of Investigation (hereinafter referred to as the Mission) led by the Sending State shall be established to facilitate the recovery of remains and the conduct of the investigation called for in United Nations Security Council Resolution 2166 of 21 July 2014, and other activities as may be agreed between the Parties.
3.1 The Mission personnel shall be allowed to possess and carry weapons and to use force in self-defense and for fulfillment of its activities under this Agreement.
4.1 During its stay on the territory of the Receiving State the Mission shall be allowed to use public bases, training centers, training grounds and other facilities of the Receiving State upon agreement between the Head of Mission and the entities of the Receiving State responsible for the administration of such facilities.
 
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