Exactly I believe this will help mobile applications more than AAA console/pc rendering. Mobile gpus need that extra bit of optimization to compensate the low power usage and raw processing. The Pro gpu won't perform better than a comparable 4TF pc gpu especially with a jaguar CPU. I'd like to see if GDC will delve into this
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Mark Cerny on The Verge (GPU, elite controller, etc)
- Thread starter LordOfChaos
- Start date
Exactly I believe this will help mobile applications more than AAA console/pc rendering. Mobile gpus need that extra bit of optimization to compensate the low power usage and raw processing. The Pro gpu won't perform better than a comparable 4TF pc gpu especially with a jaguar CPU. I'd like to see if GDC will delve into this
I think most people understand that you never reach the theoretical numbers in real world situations. However it's a decent point of reference to give us an idea what to expect from hardware.
The PS4 and XBO surely aren't hitting their theoretical numbers but the results are reflective of the gap between the quoted specs of the two systems.
FusedAtoms
Member
It's a damn shame about the elite controller but I've been waiting for some sort of confirmation like this to buy a scuf controller so at least there are other options.
Sad Affleck
Member
33.6 TF! Brb, making new thread.
You see how this work now?
PS4 Pro wasn't announced so to MS it didn't exist & Scorpio isn't on the market so to Sony it doesn't exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSXpKhSLCYE
lolosgolos
Banned
You see how this work now?
PS4 Pro wasn't announced so to MS it didn't exist & Scorpio isn't on the market so to Sony it doesn't exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSXpKhSLCYE
Problem with that is the pro specs leaked long before Scorpio reveal and we have information on Scorpio so it does exist. Let's see how fallout 4 looks on this 4.2tf 32fp pro and 8.4tf 32fp pc.
Always-honest
Banned
Will it get a Pro patch though?
And the Xbox Scorpio was revealed long before this Sony ad was made & what does the last part of your comment have to do with my post?
Yup, MS knew about the Pro before the official announcement and I wouldn't be surprised if Sony knew about Scorpio before it was officially announced as well.
4TF , 6TF ,8TF ,12TF , 8TF + super duper special sauce , 12TF + The Power Of The Clouds to infinity!
Always-honest
Banned
Thanx!
The bizarre thing about this thread is that almost everyone wants to argue against onQ123, as if he's Sony's version of MisterXMedia. Yet, if anything, more tripe is coming out of his detractors than him.
The PS4 Pro, given what has been said, does have an 8.4TF GPU if the f is taken to refer to half precision floating point numbers (i.e. FP16). This means it it can theoretically perform 8.4 trillion FP16 operations per second. This isn't the case because, inherently, 1 FP32 operation takes twice the time of 1 FP16 operation which takes half the time of 1 FP8 operation, it is the case because the machine has hardware which can perform two FP16 calculations at the same speed as one FP32 calculation (which is not the same as being able to do one FP16 at twice the speed as one FP32 calculation!)
You couldn't have made the same claim about the PS4. You couldn't say it's GPU was capable of 3.68 trillion FP16 operations per second because it wasn't. There is a specific upgrade in the PS4 Pro's GPU which means the claim is legitimate.
The PS4 Pro's GPU is undeniably capable of 8.4 trillion FP16 operations per second. I don't think it is advisable to call it an 8.4TF machine because it is likely to confuse: floats are, by default, 32 bit. At the same time, it would be wrong to neglect the innovation in this GPU. It is significant, and though special sauce is a loaded term, it kind of is special sauce, albeit special sauce which will be used in many GPUs. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a feature in all GPUs in the future.
Self_Destructive
Member
What it comes down to is what MS is referring to with regards to their 6TF bullet point. It's insane to think that it's anything other than full FP32 performance. Onq thinks he's got a reason to believe that it could be different.. and he might. But as I said before.. I'm SURE he knows himself that it's FP32, and not 16/32. He's just leaving the door open in case something absolutely insane happens, then he can say 'look.. I told you'. NOBODY is arguing the numbers. (theoretically) PS4 Pro is a 8.4TF FP16 machine.
I don't think anyone is arguing the simple fact that it is capable of 8.4tf when using half floats...BUT, it's frankly an irrelevant number...it's impossible to code a game entirely in FP16...meaning that the Pro is completely incapable of using anywhere near that kind of power for gaming
Coolbgdog12
Member
I love threads where Onq and others are arguing.
Seeing quotes and graphs always crack me up
Seeing quotes and graphs always crack me up
vpance
Member
Entire PS3 games were made using FP16, same with mobile.
FP16 will only see more and more usage down the line, no doubt.
Negotiator
Banned
What about XBOX 360? Don't last-gen consoles support FP32?
Which PS3 games? (Genuinely curious)...and are you really suggesting we're going to get 8.4tf mobile games on the PS4 Pro? I mean, seriously?
Well I can understand it in terms of online play. It's a variation on the whole allowing m/kb on consoles argument and how that would supposedly upset the balance.
vpance
Member
Well, all of them I guess. RSX was only capable of FP16. Point is, games can still look good in FP16, and is apparently still viable in much of today's games.
360 had up to FP10 support.
Hexa
Member
I'm pretty sure that's wrong. :/
This is the first link on Google: http://www.anandtech.com/show/1689/3
But even beyond that, based on what I've been hearing since forever and as far as I understand things, I'm pretty sure that's not right.
I think the SPEs were only FP16 though.
Also, I don't think any graphically intensive mobile games can pull that off either. Link?
vpance
Member
Right, but still, it was rarely if ever used since it was performance heavy. On PS3 you didn't have native AA support with FP16/32 render targets so a lot of devs opted to use RGB8 with clever math tricks to get HDR in their games.
The Cell SPU instruction set supported both single- and double-precision floating point data types and doesn't have any half-precision support at all.
There's no question that having FP16 available is a boon for developers who are willing to code specifically for it. The range and precision for these values is incredibly limited, but there are definitely algorithms where it makes sense not just for throughput but also for bandwidth savings. It's just not a panacea. You can't simply assume that you'll get double the throughput across a wide range of scenarios.
As I and others have stated, half-precision isn't something new. It has been in use for quite some time on other architectures, it's just new to AMD's GCN. Part of the challenge here will be that PS4 doesn't support the data format, so shaders need to be rewritten specifically for the PS4 Pro to see any advantages.
Negotiator
Banned
Isn't FP10 a bit too low? I think you're confusing it with HDR lighting precision or something....
Indeed.
If I remember correctly Ps4 GPU cannot calculate using fp16 precision.
It can store fp16 values in registers, but math is done in fp32.
PS3 does FP16 better than it does FP32 I think but it still wasn't double rate FP16
Locuza
Member
The PS4 can't save register space with FP16, this ability came first with GCN Gen 3, the PS4 uses GCN Gen 2 (at least as a basis).
If the PS4 could store native FP16 values then devlopers would already using it, since it would save registers and increase practical performance.
Pretty sure this is what was talked about in this presentation. (Packing 2 16bit values in 32bit register)
https://www.google.fi/amp/s/michald...ions-for-gcn-digital-dragons-2014-slides/amp/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmy3Tt3Ottc
Right, and the post you've quoted is from nine years ago. HDR is going to be expected on any AAA title going forward, and vector math at low precision is going to have obvious artifacting implications when used for lighting except under fairly controlled conditions. There will be plenty of FP16 opportunities, but showcase titles aren't going to get anything like a 2-1 advantage over the original FP32 shaders for PS4.
It's definitely good, but it overselling the benefits sets unrealistic expectations.
Checkerboard Render
Banned
Uh, are you referring to the 'joined' date?
That was posted today
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Tell me about it.
I want a SCUF but do I want to pay that price? Hoping for a sale between now and Christmas.
The trade in thing with them is good, although still kinda expensive.
D'oh! Thanks for calling that out evidently watching a football game and posting means less focus than I expected. The point stands, that HDR is pretty much an expectation for PS4 Pro titles. FP16 is extraordinarily common for mobile titles, but it will find somewhat narrower applications on high-end consoles.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
It could have 64 tlfops blast processing for all l care no UHD BluRay no buy.
Omnistalgic
Member
Blast processing lol...I remember that...
I don't care about Ultra Blu-ray at all though, haven't bought a movie on disc in 7 years I think.
I have a scuf and can only say: Don't buy one! The quality sucks.
After receiving mine, the grip had sharp edges that were really annoying. After repairing I noticed that the sticks are not perfectly centered. The camera accelerates faster when I push the stick up in comparison to pushing it down. My friends scuf was completly broken. Input lag and broken sticks.
Save the money and don't buy one.
Yeah, don't read too much into that.
Just a guess but I think that the Work distributor , ID Buffer & other hardware is going to lighten the load so that FP16 can be used a lot more, we still don't know the actual hardware that is inside of the PS4 Pro besides mobile games are built around having slow memory also so games on a console using FP16 does not = mobile game tech limited.
But it has a Blitter Mega Processor! are you no longer part of The Amiga Brotherhood?
The specific features named are absolutely unrelated to the tradeoffs between single- and half-precision representations. Better work distribution just means better utilization of functional units, which could improve shader throughput independent of whether you're manipulating half- or single-precision values (or it could just enable efficient scheduling of half-precision work in the first place, chances are we won't get that level of detail confirmed.) The ID buffer enables specific algorithms that have little or nothing to do with the precision and range of data being manipulated in traditional vector and fragment shaders. It's there specifically for reconciling content rendered in successive frames.
Sure, it's possible that there's some other custom hardware at work. Holding out hope for something miraculous is far from wise, but it'll be fascinating to see what details we get. I keep expecting to hear about dedicated hardware to enable checkerboard reconciliation at scanout to avoid a redundant write/read bandwidth costs for the final frame buffer but there's little to suggest that it's actually the case other than the claim that checkerboard rendering is essentially free.
Watching new console launches is exciting. And exhausting.
Breakfast at Noon
Member
Remember when we all praised Sony for not been tv tv tv?
I think the fact that they are able to track the exact location of polygons without any help from the GPU processing power should open up doors & not just for checkerboard rendering & AA.
I think right now is more about 4K output so that's what is being talked about but I can't picture devs having access to new tools & data & not finding new ways to do things to take advantage of what they have in a closed platform.
