Hours Left
Member
I just read on the DF forum that they are trying to include same sex marriage in the game, something that I was really hoping that they would do.
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Massive Chalice Kickstarter by Double Fine [Complete, $1.2 million funded]
- Thread starter Corto
- Start date
Interesting, but I'm very curious what that'd actually mean from a gameplay standpoint, given the apparent importance of rearing offspring.
Then again, that does depend somewhat on whether a bloodline is regarded as a strictly genetic thing or if it's more 'parents passing on their wisdom to their offspring', which from that standpoint would work fine with adoption.
And that in turn gets me wondering about how that process of parents passing on their wisdom would work - what happens if a parent dies while the child is young, meaning they then lose the potential improvement from learning from that parent?
There's a lot of scope for interesting complexity and options here.
Whitebison
Member
Turn based? I'm in!!
Did you guys pay attention to the development of Endless Space at all?
Chris Remo
Member
It could go a lot of ways in the game, depending on what actually works and is fun when it's implemented. But one possibility we were talking about is that it's beneficial in multiple ways for two characters to have a high affinity, even if they can't actually have children together, and you might determine the tradeoff to be worth it. Another possible route is that after they are born, children don't necessarily need to be raised in the same place their parents are from--maybe you send them to a different location to be raised by other lords who can impart different skills, etc. There are all kinds of ways it could be handled.
Remachinate
Member
It's interesting that the question of same-sex marriage has been brought up in a game pitch where marriages are royal arrangements for purposes of breeding rather than an organic result of romance between units. Has the design of the game moved away from the former to the latter? I have no problem with inclusiveness, but this feels like a concession for equality in a feudal setting where attraction, straight or gay, had no impact of union of bloodlines (at least from a historical perspective).
I agree. It makes no sense based on what they're pitching. It'll be disappointing if they're pandering to "inclusiveness" at the expense of gameplay making sense, just to try and attract a certain interest group into boosting the funding for the game.
It's a game about an immortal being fighting demons. They can do what they want.
That sounds like a poor argument which has nothing to do at all with the point.
I mean, they could just as easily say that in this universe magic (or whatever) allows same-sex couples to procreate. If that were the case, arranged marriages would still be about getting the best result rather than love. I don't really see the problem.
The problem is that its stupid and obvious pandering which isn't needed. Sure they CAN do whatever they want, but people are also allowed to comment on how good or bad those potential decisions are.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Normally, I don't side with the "that's pandering" crowd, but Duck's right.
I think they're making their own fantasy world, not attempting to simulate the social politics of medieval Europe. It's only "pandering" if they were trying to do the latter.
This makes sense. Art style is very important to me, and Double Fine seems to always do a great job, but it's nice to hear the team will listen closely to input.
Idle Thumbs is rad, btw.
For the record, I would love for more games to have gender options (which this does, for the player character), and same-sex romance options (I prefer it not to be uniform, because it's silly for every character you can romance to be bisexual), and I think that portraying homosexual characters in a more realistic and natural way is the positive way moving forward for representation of such things in games. That's my social view.
Here, we're looking at what is fundamentally a game design and thematic view on a game which has been announced and detailed. It's a medieval setting inspired by Crusader Kings 2, FFT, Fire Emblem, and X-Com. I don't think that going out of their way to say "magic in this world allows the same gender to continue their bloodline!" is particularly interesting or helpful to anyone. It just comes off as feeling like a cheap gimme gimmick.
On the other hand, if romance is added to the game depth, and characters with higher affinity with each other could possibly "bring up" better children with more effective skills etc, then I think what they could do in a worthwhile way is to allow the option of pairing same-sex characters who adopt a kid, which means a randomized offspring without pure bloodline benefits (whatever that turns out to be gameplay wise), and instead inheriting more or more specific active skills from both parents. I think that would be a good way of presenting how parents pass down both knowledge/experience to their children as well as genetics, and one can still substitute for another.
That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I would not want to see stuff just made up and added into the game as a cheap bulletpoint, and I would prefer more thought to go into designing stuff to suit a proposed thematic addition.
Here, we're looking at what is fundamentally a game design and thematic view on a game which has been announced and detailed. It's a medieval setting inspired by Crusader Kings 2, FFT, Fire Emblem, and X-Com. I don't think that going out of their way to say "magic in this world allows the same gender to continue their bloodline!" is particularly interesting or helpful to anyone. It just comes off as feeling like a cheap gimme gimmick.
On the other hand, if romance is added to the game depth, and characters with higher affinity with each other could possibly "bring up" better children with more effective skills etc, then I think what they could do in a worthwhile way is to allow the option of pairing same-sex characters who adopt a kid, which means a randomized offspring without pure bloodline benefits (whatever that turns out to be gameplay wise), and instead inheriting more or more specific active skills from both parents. I think that would be a good way of presenting how parents pass down both knowledge/experience to their children as well as genetics, and one can still substitute for another.
That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I would not want to see stuff just made up and added into the game as a cheap bulletpoint, and I would prefer more thought to go into designing stuff to suit a proposed thematic addition.
Yeah, that was my point. It's not like they are shoehorning into a system already in place. If they are designing it from the ground up with same-sex relationships in mind, I think that's fine.
edit: duck, I agree with your points. I think I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Chris Remo
Member
We've always planned for the game to have an affinity system where different characters can develop bonds that have benefit in combat or other scenarios. And we want the game to be inclusive. However it's pretty unlikely the game will allow two heroes of the same sex to actually bear children. (I haven't heard it brought up in the office at all.)
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I feel I need to tell you that you're doing a horrible, rank job of making me stay within budget.
Thanks for the insight. It definitely sounds like the right direction to approach it.
Baron_Calamity
Member
I'm disappointed this isn't funded already.
HadesGigas
Member
I think it would make sense for your soldiers to want to marry certain people (of either gender), and that mutual desire to be together would be their affinity, which could work similar to FEA's double teams and stuff. But you as the immortal god king, could determine if you want those two people to wed or if you think they are better suited breeding with someone who will birth a child with better stats (or birth a child at all).
Letting two people wed who want to would give them the highest affinity with each other, but since they are marrying for love and not stats, it's less likely they have picked a partner that will result in as good a child as if you went and picked the two "best" matches yourself and forced them on each other.
Likewise two people you forced on each other would probably never get to as high affinity with each other as two who naturally fell in love. They might not wind up even liking each other.
Letting two people wed who want to would give them the highest affinity with each other, but since they are marrying for love and not stats, it's less likely they have picked a partner that will result in as good a child as if you went and picked the two "best" matches yourself and forced them on each other.
Likewise two people you forced on each other would probably never get to as high affinity with each other as two who naturally fell in love. They might not wind up even liking each other.
Maybe there's a chance you could come across orphans that the player could adopt?
me too, but I'm betting it'll get to 1.5m, maybe 2m, so it'll be alright.
but yeah, wish this had a better reception, because it sounds awesome
Wouldnt it actually take more work to create an exclusive gender system than just ignore gender? In other words, wouldn't it be less work to have the game system totally ignore gender as a variable and thereby be more inclusive by default? I mean, what would have to be changed except the verb "given birth" to something more ambiguous.
That wouldn't even be necessary. You have been granted a daughter or you have parented a son or you have a new baby girl/boy. There are all kinds of verbage to just leave the descriptor as to the means neutral/ambiguous.
Do the characters have a defined personality or are they generic?
Chris Remo
Member
Well, a big point of having children born in this game is for the player to be able to arrange marriages between heroes in order to pass on specific traits to the children they bear, so that would remove a pretty significant part of the game. The notion of a "bloodline" is pretty crucial to the concept.
Stat boosts are a result of nurture, not nature. Everyone knows that.
No. Active skills = nurture, Stats = nature!
Actually it would be really neat if same sex couples just had children with randomized genetic traits. It provides a cool mechanical twist and it makes sense.
It's like playing the kid lottery.
Actually it would be really neat if same sex couples just had children with randomized genetic traits. It provides a cool mechanical twist and it makes sense.
It's like playing the kid lottery.
I now have a mental image of a particularly optimisation-obsessed king locking a couple away in a darkened room until they, uh, 'finish rerolling'
CecilRousso
Member
Almost there now.
Yup, only 3,500 to go.
Shame it's gonna take so long for this game to come out, I'm already more excited about this concept than any other game on the horizon at the moment. Oh well, what's a game without some anticipation.
The Kickstarter page says the documentary will be available to everyone in streaming form, downloads for $50+ backers.
Do we know if the streaming episodes are kept online indefinitely, or are they "watch within X days of publication of each episode, after that they're download only"?
Do we know if the streaming episodes are kept online indefinitely, or are they "watch within X days of publication of each episode, after that they're download only"?
preorders
Game devs don't rely on preorders to keep their staff and make a game.
Nothing wrong with gauging demand on stuff before proceeding to make it. It's actually a very normal concept with entertainment with small markets and possibly low demand. Lots of board games and table top games do this for example. And making sure there is a minimum number of paid pre-orders before proceeding with manufacturing is also something which has been done for decades with regards to low print video releases for box sets and whatnot.
I think it's perfectly normal for videogames to also embrace this concept for stuff with niche demand. If there isn't enough interest, then it simply wouldn't be made and the developers will come up with some other idea instead.
I think it's perfectly normal for videogames to also embrace this concept for stuff with niche demand. If there isn't enough interest, then it simply wouldn't be made and the developers will come up with some other idea instead.
How many times have gamers requested for certain games to be made, developers willing to make them, but no publisher willing to invest money because they didn't think the game would sell because it wasn't an action based shooting game and thus might not appeal to the masses and sell millions of copies over the first few weeks?
With this system, games get made that people want to play, because they want to play them. The developers eliminate the risk of a game not selling after investing money into it. Thus ensuring the company can survive the production of the game. And the publishers can focus on their Modern Warfare simulations. Everybody wins.
How you can view games getting made, because gamers want them made, as a bad thing is beyond me.
With this system, games get made that people want to play, because they want to play them. The developers eliminate the risk of a game not selling after investing money into it. Thus ensuring the company can survive the production of the game. And the publishers can focus on their Modern Warfare simulations. Everybody wins.
How you can view games getting made, because gamers want them made, as a bad thing is beyond me.
CecilRousso
Member
It's been a year since kickstarter for games really took off, and most people are sitll quite positive about it since it enables devs to do more niche games, so it seems to be a good thing.
Unless, y'know, the game turns out shit. Just because a game is being made that people want doesn't mean the final product is going to be good.
A bit late to the discussion about same sex marriage in a game with such emphasis on lineage but maybe a believable way to implement it would be for same sex couples being able to chose a women to bear their child or a man to sire. It would be just another system to optimize.
Also, aaaaaaalmost there.
People that kickstart are well aware of the possibility of the game turning bad. It's a risk we are willing to take.
Also, aaaaaaalmost there.
People that kickstart are well aware of the possibility of the game turning bad. It's a risk we are willing to take.
If a game turns out to be shit it turns out to be shit. Life goes on. If you're here to start up another "Kickstarter is dangerous" argument, I suggest you leave this thread and not reply any further, because it will be regarded as an attempt to derail the thread.
actually you're right
this industry is pretty fucked up if developers have to resort to kickstarter and asking fans directly to be able to make games in amazing genres like turn based rpgs and strategy games, graphic adventures, etc.
but hey, it's publishers' loss
there's little reason to believe either proven developers or ambitious indies would fuck it up by misusing the money given to them.
they actually have to sell the game to make money, so if the game is shit they'll go to shit too.
this isn't any different from preorders, if you don't like the game don't pay for it
this industry is pretty fucked up if developers have to resort to kickstarter and asking fans directly to be able to make games in amazing genres like turn based rpgs and strategy games, graphic adventures, etc.
but hey, it's publishers' loss
if a game turns out shit you lost 20 bucks like on any other indie preorder.
there's little reason to believe either proven developers or ambitious indies would fuck it up by misusing the money given to them.
they actually have to sell the game to make money, so if the game is shit they'll go to shit too.
this isn't any different from preorders, if you don't like the game don't pay for it
natkingcoleslaw
Neo Member
Finally.
A quality western release with some great ideas from some of the best JRPGs ever made. This is going to be the shit!!
A quality western release with some great ideas from some of the best JRPGs ever made. This is going to be the shit!!
In the game development process, *someone*, somewhere has to take a risk. I'm okay with taking on a risk proportional to what I can afford.
That's what it boils down to. I'm not working on the assumption a good game will result at the end of it; I'm working on the principle that I'm willing to risk x much money - which varies depending on the pitch - on the potential that a good game will result at the end of it.
CecilRousso
Member
In this case you also get a documentary in the $20 price, so even if the game turns out to be shit, I think a lot of people will get their money's worth in the doc.
The documentary is free for everyone, even people who don't back the project.
interesting, i understand the dehlema, but whilst we're just throwing ideas out there, what if the child of same sex marriges is essencially an random roll on stats, and fiction-wise its just an adopted orphan?