On the other hand, if the game doesn't get funded, there's no documentary.
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Massive Chalice Kickstarter by Double Fine [Complete, $1.2 million funded]
- Thread starter Corto
- Start date
On the other hand, if the game doesn't get funded, there's no documentary.
Heh, it went from 722 to 732k, meaning someone ordered the 10k tier just now. Good on them.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Assuming there's magic, I can't see why someone can't come up with a hocus pocus reason why the fantasy version of IVF can't exist. Or just have children born of magic with no explanation whatsoever. lol
AstroZombie
Banned
oh shit, I just backed it too, hope I didn't pledge the wrong amount
Hey, I was the first here (I think?) to suggest that they should aim for more practical gameplay designs if they want to have inclusive pairings, and that adoption is a natural part of that. Randomized non-bloodline inheritance with the benefit of learning more skills from both parents is a great idea imo!
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Release the orphans....
One thing I'm trying to weigh up is whether it'd be okay if there's a gameplay advantage to heterosexual relationships over same-sex, given there's a little extra challenge in having to pair up opposites; from a pure mechanics standpoint, it's a little trickier to do, therefore it should confer greater rewards.
The problem is, of course, that ignoring the fact that there's a logical gameplay reason for it, symbolically it's a very ugly thing to imply.
I do like the idea of stats through birth, skills through teaching, though - although it does raise the question of why heterosexual couples don't teach their kids as much! I will say that there's a tiny hint of 'separate but equal' to it, though, which again has unpleasant connotations.
Perhaps it's better if they just have kids through some magical mechanic and be done with it. I fear that doing otherwise may be courting controversy.
So, just like the Bible then.
I disagree. I think that lies in the balance. If stats are completely useless, then sure, your example would make sense. More skills > less skills. But that would be poor design. Since the primary purpose of pairing characters is to breed a stronger bloodline over the years, it reasons that stats should matter. So characters with high agility and combat skills which take advantage of agility, will naturally have children who also start with abnormally high agility, and teach them those skills. They might have less skills, but they'll be naturally better at them and more focused. So it's not a matter of being taught less, but a matter of being taught how to be more efficient at what counts.
For an "adopted" child, if you are getting somewhat randomized stats, it means there is no guarantee that you would have a better character overall, only that the parents would do their best to give their child as many skills as possible to face the challenges ahead. They wouldn't know what their child is likely to be naturally good at, so they just teach more variety of what they know. It's an offset. You could end up with a more useful character this way in some situations, but not always.
I don't really think there's anything controversial about it, at least not any more controversial than a game which encourages selective breeding of human beings to begin with. It's all in good fun.
moozoom
Member
The same sex romance / affinity was the little push I needed to back the project.
The video was funny and Brad Muir is super cute, how can you say no to that face <3 :
Just backed the project at 50$ for the documentary and HD art downloads. Even if the game is a dud in the end, I know Double Fine has fantastic artists so I'll have nice wallpapers for my desktop.
The video was funny and Brad Muir is super cute, how can you say no to that face <3 :
Just backed the project at 50$ for the documentary and HD art downloads. Even if the game is a dud in the end, I know Double Fine has fantastic artists so I'll have nice wallpapers for my desktop.
Sentenza
Member
I would prefer if the game actually had a good interface, honestly.
I actually wonder if their non-committal position is due to budgetary reasons or other things. For PS4 it seems pretty clear that Sony would let them self-publish, Microsoft on the other hand has promised news on the indie front, but no one outside still seems to know how's it going to evolve. Current gen I'd say is dependent on how much they want to push the game, but I don't think they'd just publish on current gen and not Next. Mobile platforms seems unlikely, I don't think Buddha runs on any of them (yet).
edit:
For this style of game I don't see how controller controls would cause trouble for interface design.
CecilRousso
Member
I think they will have enough on their plate to just make it for PC with a budget like this, so I hope they stay away from further platforms until they're done with the PC version. A
B
bomb
Unconfirmed Member
So are they going to stop taking funding because they are not doing stretch goals?
Sentenza
Member
But I do.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Hah!
More money means they can work on it with more people for a longer period of time. The game will still be expanded/improved based on the total funding, it's just that they chose to not set some arbitrary stretch goal.
Which seems entirely reasonable to me. They only just started development on the game - it'd be insane to say 'WE'LL ADD AN EXTRA MISSION IF WE GET A MILLION'. Buy the game if you want to buy the game. The more money they get, the bigger the game will get. But it's a bit random to decide now what you'll expanding on a year from now - maybe certain gameplay elements won't be fun to play and they'll shift on that later on. Not setting stretch goals allows for that flexibility.
B
bomb
Unconfirmed Member
I mean they supposedly reached the target amount to make the game and they are not adding any incentive goals. Hypothetically, are they going to raise another 3 million to make a game that only costs 750k?
See XCOM: Enemy Unknown
They'd just increase the scope to encompass what they actually raise but in ways that may not simply be attributable to a single definable feature at a single definable price.
Don't take the $750k as in any way an absolutely fixed figure. It's an estimate for a scope they've envisioned. The estimate may be off; the scope can be increased; unforseen problems may appear. There are ways to spend more money!
They never added any stretch goals for Double Fine Adventure, but said that the extra money allowed them to vastly expand on their original plans for the project. They originally planned for it to be a short game that would be a few hours long, max, and now it's more of a full-blown adventure.
The same will happen here. 725,000 was the absolute minimum required to produce the game they wanted to produce. More money means expanding on those minimum-plans, and the type of expansion will come naturally during the development process.
You understand that, right?
You're saying you've never played or seen a tactical/S-RPG with good controller interface?
Minsc
Gold Member
They never said they weren't doing stretch goals. I quoted their kickstarter page earlier:
That sounds exactly like stretch goals.
My concern wouldn't be for that aspect myself, clearly SRPGs are abundant on consoles and controllers work great for the gameplay. It'd be more for the overworld / management aspect, where you'd be clicking on different sections of the map or territories, etc. Also would work, but that part seems like a m+kb could be more desirable to someone who doesn't have a general bias for one particular control scheme over another and just prefers what works best.
Sentenza
Member
I'm more specifically saying that I never played a tactical with a controller interface which was as good as a proper PC interface.
Not to mention how often "keeping consoles in mind" translates with a fairly substantial reduction of your tactical options.
One could argue that FF Tactics, Fire Emblem or XCOM on console worked pretty fine.
But still, they aren't on par with stuff like Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, Heroes of might And Magic, King's Bounty.
And the new XCOM specifically gave up a lot compared to the classic (which wasn't really an example of outstanding interface design on its own during the tactical combat, one could argue).
If anything, that's a case for awesome controller use. Not only was the control useful, it was actually the best way to deal with multiple floors in the game. I have my computer hooked up to my TV, so being able to sit back on my couch and play with a controller was absolutely awesome. The only problem I ever had with a controller in XCOM was that the grid on map would disappear when "controller mode" was activated (which as nothing to do with the controller, and more to do with a bizarre design decision).
I disagree. I think that lies in the balance. If stats are completely useless, then sure, your example would make sense. More skills > less skills. But that would be poor design. Since the primary purpose of pairing characters is to breed a stronger bloodline over the years, it reasons that stats should matter. So characters with high agility and combat skills which take advantage of agility, will naturally have children who also start with abnormally high agility, and teach them those skills. They might have less skills, but they'll be naturally better at them and more focused. So it's not a matter of being taught less, but a matter of being taught how to be more efficient at what counts.
For an "adopted" child, if you are getting somewhat randomized stats, it means there is no guarantee that you would have a better character overall, only that the parents would do their best to give their child as many skills as possible to face the challenges ahead. They wouldn't know what their child is likely to be naturally good at, so they just teach more variety of what they know. It's an offset. You could end up with a more useful character this way in some situations, but not always.
I don't really think there's anything controversial about it, at least not any more controversial than a game which encourages selective breeding of human beings to begin with. It's all in good fun.
But sadly, it carries the connotation that homosexual couples are better at teaching their children and straight couples are bad parents. I know it's petty, and stupid, but it's there. It plays even more into the derogatory slang of straight people only being "Breeders". While you, and I, and most of this board wouldn't take it that way, I'm sure there would be a stupid amount of people who would.
CecilRousso
Member
Nah, it only says that they will use additional money to make the game better/bigger, but stretch goals usually means promises about specific features and scope changes. I hope DF doesn't make to many of those, like inXile and Obsidian.
There will definitely be stretch goals. They're just not going to announce them until the project is actually funded. Now that it is, I expect the next update to address stretch goals.
CecilRousso
Member
There will of course be some, but I hope they stay modest with them. Other kickstarters have taken it way way to far.
I'll agree that there are cases were options were probably dumbed down to cater to console, what I mean is that I don't see why it is needed really needed in this genre. In this style of game I can't think of much that can't be done with a controller. My play experiences in this style of games are not super broad even though I like them so I'd actually like if you could point out something that those examples or other games do on KB+M which couldn't be done on controller.
(btw I have no agenda in this, I would probably play this KB+M even if the controller option were to be available, if I'm on a PC I rarely break out the controller)
Remachinate
Member
Hey, credit where credit is due!
I would really like to hear more specifics on the game. It's great that they're so open to suggestions and feedback, but I think it's seriously hurting their momentum to offer so little concrete information. Also, the more features they agree is a good idea, the more I worry their original goal won't be adequate to deliver a la Broken Age.
Am I insane for actually considering the 5k tier? I always wanted to get involved, even if only minor and temporarily, in the design of a game, and this particular concept hews so closely to ideas I've had in the past that I think I'd especially love getting to sit in on some discussions for it. There's just the matter of justifying spending that much money on something like this.
When will you get this chance again?
Extra Sauce
Member
I think more Kickstarter projects should be like this. It's not really possible to know exactly how much specific features will cost before a game is even made, so stretch goals often read like a load of bullshit. I'd rather have a dev just tell me they're going to make the best possible game with the amount of money they receive, as opposed to talking out their ass.
Chris Remo
Member
Definitely not. The game would absolutely benefit from a higher budget. We hope our community continues to get behind the project in a big way!
We don't think "stretch goals" are generally an accurate way to attract more funding, at least not the way an established studio like ours works. Game development is iterative and in almost EVERY case it's better to be able to have more resources to allocate in whatever way they need to during a given stage of the project.
For example, if we discover halfway into development that we're getting a surprising amount of benefit from one particular design tenet or animation system feature or whatever else, and we can dedicate more resources to that part of the game, even if it wasn't deemed strictly necessary in the original budget, that's much better for the game. Or if there's a part of the design that everyone thought was a lock from day one, but turns out to need more work to nail, it might be beneficial to be able to bring in another designer to give a fresh pair of eyes and another pair of hands to bang away on it.
You simply can never predict all of those situations, and people who claim you can are probably being overly optimistic. Once you start assigning hard stretch goals, you're implicitly removing your ability to be more responsive with your larger budget (which is the real value of the larger budget) because you're committing in advance to things that may or may not have the same bang-for-the-buck that you would have from being able to use that budget in the ways that end up being most advantageous once the project is actually deep in development.
I'm sure there are a lot of teams that have used stretch goals well and in a way that makes sense, but we're trying pretty hard with this project to remain more responsive and flexible, because we think it's going to be what allows Massive Chalice to be the best game it can be.
Edit: I know this isn't exciting as a table of stretch goals with clear amounts and features, but I guarantee it will be better for the development of the game. Plus, we've already gotten a bunch of amazing ideas from our community, some of which are very likely to make it into the game, and that kind of fluid collaboration is a lot more exciting and fruitful to us than picking a bunch of stuff right now and setting it in stone forever. It's just not how game development works most of the time.
HadesGigas
Member
Yes they are going to do this, even though it's not a thing that is possible to do on Kickstarter.
You guys should do some intentionally funny/parody stretch goals like
STRETCH GOALS:
$800,000-15.6% more niffyness in the game.
$825,000 - 2 new cool ideas will be thought
$850,000 - 2 new cool ideas actually related to Massive Chalice will be thought
$900,000 - We get $900,000 to make Massive Chalice
$925,000 - A totally arbitrary stretch goal will be reached.
$950,000 - Multiple office members will dance with a shoe on their head (no, you may not watch).
$1 Million - Extra toppings on the next office pizza ordered during crunch time.
I'm actually not joking, either. Even though they may be arbitrary, stretch goals give the community a simple visualization of project funding. It's fun to see goals being met, even if they are arbitrary and silly. It's also smart marketing.
I agree! It's pretty shit on a mouse though.
Regardless, XCOM:EU is a good example of how UI design is affected by input method.
It wouldn't necessarily be an advantage, though. If you have a fairly weak set of traits that's not an advantage for them to be passed on. Contrarily, it could be a real advantage to get some awesome random bonus that is totally unexpected for your offspring. It also, frankly mirrors real life same sex adoption. I'm not sure how or why anyone would be offended by the idea that children of same sex couples do not inherent genetic traits. That seems pretty obvious.
Anyway, the fact that they are allowing it really pushes me a logn way to throwing my support behind the game. I admit I"m a bit kickstarted out the moment just because I have backed a lot of projects and haven't got any of the games I've backed yet. When Shadowrun comes out in a couple of weeks and is awesome, I may change my mind, though.
Update#2 We made our goal!
Two New Reward Tiers!
Youve been asking us to tweak our reward curve, and we think it makes a lot of sense. Now supporters who back at $35 and above will get an exclusive backers-only Bloodline Relic that will give your first generation of heroes an edge on the battlefield. Were going to work directly with the community to determine what this item will be, and were sure that its going to be awesome.
Weve also added a special edition boxed copy of MASSIVE CHALICE designed by Cory Schmitz for backers at $75 and above. Cory is the mastermind behind our MASSIVE CHALICE logo. Check out the details in the rewards section of our main project page!
Stretch Goals
A lot of people have asked us about stretch goals. MASSIVE CHALICE is still in the pre-production phase of development. Weve got a TON of ideas around Double Fine HQ that sound awesome, but as with every game, not every idea can make it through production. And now that weve announced the game and shared the idea with you guys, we have another TON of ideas! So thats two tons of ideas were trying to fit into a modest budget!
The exciting thing about taking the game to you guys at this early stage is that some of your ideas are even better than ours. As we go through pre-production into production, some of these ideas are going to trump ours, leading to a game thats more in line with what our community wants! Thats amazing and we love having you involved in the process!
Ultimately its about making the best game possible with the total amount we receive. Well be using any amount of extra funding to add new features and iterate on the ideas generated not just by us, but by youthe community!
Thanks Again!
Were incredibly humbled by your outpouring of love for MASSIVE CHALICE! Were really excited to have the opportunity to make this game a reality with your support and input. Thank you so much!
Sincerely,
Brad and the MASSIVE CHALICE team!