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[TheLegendaryN]

The question was how did they drive the install base. Yes, some western titles did well- but how did those western titles help drive PS4 hardware sales?

Big western releases had a better launch on PS4 in Japan than many Japanese titles, including western AAA that also came out on PS3. Why would people buy these games on PS4 if they also release on PS3? Most people didn't make the transition when Ryuu ga Gotoku Ishin and Metal Gear Solid V came out. Watch Dogs even had more sales for PS4 at launch than on PS3.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

Is the effect of all the Western titles anywhere close to the effect of all the Japanese titles?

I don't think the point is that western titles are equivalent to Japanese ones in market relevance, just that they are still relevant to the Japanese market.

I mean hell, the top 5 western games on PS4 add up to at least 1.4 million in sales, surely that's worth something.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I'm sorry, what?

What part of Japanese games drive the growth in the Japanese market is controversial? Where did I say random KT bomba mattered more than Horizon or GR? You're picking and choosing what part of the arguments you address and are putting words in my mouth ignoring all context.

That's not discussion in good faith. You know what you are doing.

How is, Japanese games are largely more important to the Japanese market controversial?

I don't think the point is that western titles are equivalent to Japanese ones in market relevance, just that they are still relevant to the Japanese market.

I mean hell, the top 5 western games on PS4 add up to at least 1.4 million in sales, surely that's worth something.

I don't think you would find us ignoring the top 5 games that make up that number. You think no one talks about GTA and CoD? Is this a serious point?

 

[schuelma]

I don't think the point is that western titles are equivalent to Japanese ones in market relevance, just that they are still relevant to the Japanese market.

I mean hell, the top 5 western games on PS4 add up to at least 1.4 million in sales, surely that's worth something.

Yeah, they're relevant. But 2014 PS4 hardware sales kind of display that they don't really drive hardware adoption in any meaningful way.

I'll put it this way- those titles can be good compliments, but if western titles are your highest sellers you're probably not selling a lot of hardware.

 

[Fdkn]

Is the effect of all the Western titles anywhere close to the effect of all the Japanese titles?

Nice strawman.

And you talk about arguing in good faith, smh.

Western games being relevant does not mean I'm trying to argue that they are more important than all japanese games. They are more important than a considerable segment of japanese games that nobody cares about but are present in those useless list of 'every game ever announced' to make bad points.

 

[L~A]

Well, If Capcom doesn't get smart, I can see their strong grasp on school kids after-school time weakening by western local-lan games like Rocket League or FIFA.

Capcom aside, I'd love to know the profile of the average GTA player in Japan. Is there lots of teenagers like in the west, or is it mostly young adults?

 

[Fukuzatsu]

Yeah, they're relevant. But 2014 PS4 hardware shows kind of display that they don't really drive hardware adoption in any meaningful way.

I'll put it this way- those titles can be good compliments, but if western titles are your highest sellers you're probably not selling a lot of hardware.

Okay, but who here is arguing anything like "PS4 would be fine in Japan with only Western titles"? It is the complete package of big Japanese titles (FF, DQ, NieR, RGG, Persona, Metal Gear) with big Western titles (GTA, Battlefield, Minecraft, Horizon) that make it what it is.

 

[schuelma]

Western games being relevant does not mean I'm trying to argue that they are more important than all japanese games. They are more important than a considerable segment of japanese games that nobody cares about but are present in those useless list of 'every game ever announced' to make bad points.

Taken individually I agree with you- but I think that in a lot of cases the late ports and low to mid tier stuff often portend bigger support from 3rd party pubs and help to build a strong retail presence.

When the topic is explicitly Japanese 3rd party support in a Japanese sales thread, I don't understand the controversy in listing Japanese 3rd party games.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

I don't think you would find us ignoring the top 5 games that make up that number. You think no one talks about GTA and CoD? Is this a serious point?

I'm not disagreeing that 'similarly big' Japanese titles have a larger sales impact than Western ones, but why should that mean they shouldn't discuss western games' sales impact (what seemed to be the original point)?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Nice strawman.

That's not a strawman when the basis of my first reply to you was

Why do you always single out 'Japanese games' as the metric for 3rd party support?

Come the fuck on. This is done.

I'm not disagreeing that 'similarly big' Japanese titles have a larger sales impact than Western ones, but why should that mean they shouldn't discuss western games' sales impact (what seemed to be the original point)?

Read the bolded

 

[schuelma]

Okay, but who here is arguing anything like "PS4 would be fine in Japan with only Western titles"? It is the complete package of big Japanese titles (FF, DQ, NieR, RGG, Persona, Metal Gear) with big Western titles (GTA, Battlefield, Minecraft, Horizon) that make it what it is.

I was initially responding to a post saying that western games drive install base.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

I was initially responding to a post saying that western games drive install base.

Hmm, well, I'd say they help drive install base, but don't support it in the absence of other similarly big releases from Japanese devs. That's all I mean.

 

[Fdkn]

That's not a strawman when the basis of my first reply to you was



Come the fuck on. This is done.



Read the bolded

Because my point is that 3rd party support is composed of both japanese and western games, and given than many of those western games sell more or in line with most of those not-big japanese games, they should be taken into account?

It's not really that hard to understand.

When you need to take western games into account to claim that the first year 3rd party support of the ps4 is better than that first year 3rd party support of the switch, you know you're right.

Fixed. You're welcome.

 

[LordKano]

When you need to take western games into account to claim that your japanese support is better than that 5-months old console, you know that it ain't good.

 

[Principate]

Because my point is that 3rd party support is composed of both japanese and western games, and given than many of those western games sell more or in line with most of those not-big japanese games, they should be taken into account?

It's not really that hard to understand.

His point of western games don't drive install base isn't all that incorrect. Look at the 3DS ltd, look how many western third party games it received and now look at the ps4. They're of bonus than a determiner. The switch makes that abundantly clear.

Hell the switch calls into question Japanese third parties importance considered how much Nintendo basically soloed the entire thing.

 

[KtSlime]

Because my point is that 3rd party support is composed of both japanese and western games, and given than many of those western games sell more or in line with most of those not-big japanese games, they should be taken into account?

It's not really that hard to understand.

Are you looking at the whole market, or just one particular console when you make that claim. There are some western games that sell well, but as a whole the western games are pretty irrelevant to anyone who is not otaku or stationed on a base here.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Because my point is that 3rd party support is composed of both japanese and western games, and given than many of those western games sell more or in line with most of those not-big japanese games, they should be taken into account?

It's not really that hard to understand.

And I said, because as a whole the domestic titles dictate the market success. That's doesn't mean mean Western titles are irrelevant. It means the leading platforms do it on the back of Japanese games. I also said random KT game is not more importabt than something like CoD. I further said, we don't actually ignore rhose titles even though we don't focus on them.

So again, what are you complaining about? You want us to talk less about shitty musou ports and more about the AC title that wont be on the Switch?

Wait. Jesus christ is this just about the PS4? We are talking about the whole market here. Maybe the PS4 has more western games slant but that's because it can't sell domestic titles for shit compared to other market leading systems with the bulk of the 3rd party support. Western titles arent more relevant to the total market. They are more relevant to the PS4 which has never sniffed being the market leader in Japan.

Obviously we aren't talking about Western support mattering for the Switch because its never going to get any in Japan. That doesn't mean that the Western support is a driver of the Japanese market.

 

[Chris1964]

I was initially responding to a post saying that western games drive install base.

PS4 Japanese third support is weak comparing to last year. Western no. We will see how much hardware and software sales will be affected.

 

[Fdkn]

Wait. Jesus christ is this just about the PS4?

No. Jesus christ. This is about 3rd party games. There are currently 2 platforms on the market plus the 3DS on its way out. What do you want me to talk about, the Xbox?

The original argument I replied to was 'Switch games vs ps4 games - a raw list of irrelevant ports in both systems'.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

No. Jesus christ. This is about 3rd party games. There are currently 2 platforms on the market plus the 3DS on its way out. What do you want me to talk about, the Xbox?

The original argument I replied to was 'Switch games vs ps4 games - a raw list of irrelevant ports in both systems'.

So why wont you just list all the titles we are suppose to be talking about like I asked?

I don't know why the fuck you wont just do this if you see something we are all missing.

Summary of Discussion so we can all see how stupid this is:

> Why are Japanese games the definition of good third party support?
> Because Japanese titles drive the growth in the market
> Those titles wont sell anything compared to a lot of Western titles
> Okay, list the Western titles that drive growth
> No
> Okay, point out the titles we are ignoring
> No

🙄

 

[D.Lo]

If we omit the wrong claims of westernized and casualized gameplay, the missing weapons from previous games, the claims of QTE filled garbage, the fact that it didn't even get the name of the game right, and the ludicrous claim of Sony paying for the game to not release exclusively on Switch while it releases on every other platform, on a game that started development long before the Switch existed even as a concept, sure, it was right.

You are so disingenuous in your argument.

The rumour was a mix of verifiable facts, unverifiable conjecture and facts, and interpretations. The verifiable facts have largely been proven correct (XX, XX Switch, MH5 PS4/PC), while the interpretations ('westernised') have to a large extent not. We'll never know some unverifiables (Sony paid). But YOU literally claimed the rumour 'was wrong in basically everything'. We proved to you it got several points right. So your original post was just lies.

And outright LOL at you saying 'the fact that it didn't even get the name of the game right' when the producer has outright said it was being developed as MH5 and they changed the name. Aka at some point MHW was called MH5 and so the rumour is proven completely correct on that point.

All the rest of your post is pure conjecture too. You can't prove Sony didn't pay for it, so your feeling that they didn't doesn't prove the rumour wrong.

 

[foxuzamaki]

KT are basically the heroes of Switch. Let's review...

*rolls out mile long list*

Dragon Quest Heroes 1 & 2 (with SE)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms 13 + Power-Up Kit
Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence
Nobunaga's Ambition: Taishi
Championship Jockey Special
Winning Post 2017 Special
Nights of Azure 2
Atelier Lydie & Soeur: The Alchemists of the Mysterious Painting
Dynasty Warriors 8: Empires
Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada
Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate
Fire Emblem Warriors (with Nintendo)

GOD DAMN.

We really just need Ninja Gaiden, Toukiden, and Hyrule Warriors to basically cover the rest really. We could see Attack on Titan 2 (maybe with the 1st?). KT are sure full of surprises.

The fact that they are still porting games can only mean it's paying off for them, compare to Wii U where it got 1 or 2 games from publishers before abandoning it

 

[schuelma]

No. Jesus christ. This is about 3rd party games. There are currently 2 platforms on the market plus the 3DS on its way out. What do you want me to talk about, the Xbox?

The original argument I replied to was 'Switch games vs ps4 games - a raw list of irrelevant ports in both systems'.

If you want to start a discussion on general 3rd party support in Japan then be my guest. We're in a Japanese sales thread where 99% of the discussion is on Japanese developed games and Japanese sales and so the dominant question since Switch's launch has been Japanese support.

Not sure why you're up in arms.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

You are so disingenuous in your argument.

The rumour was a mix of facts, conjecture and interpretations. The facts have largely been proven correct, while the interpretations ('westernised') have to a large extent not. But YOU literally claimed the rumour 'was wrong in basically everything'. We proved to you it got several points right. So your original post was just lies.

And outright LOL at you saying 'the fact that it didn't even get the name of the game right' when the producer has outright said it was being developed as MH5 and they changed the name. Aka at some point MHW was called MH5 and so the rumour is proven completely correct on that point.

All the rest of your crap is conjecture too. You can't prove Sony didn't pay for it, so your feeling that they didn't doesn't prove the rumour wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is this still the 'rumour' being sourced to some post on 4chan? Again, perhaps my memory is just bad, but it sounds like the only facts it got right in any provable capacity is that there was a mainline MH game being developed for the PS4 (exclusive or otherwise). The rest of it was either information that is impossible to verify (Sony paying Capcom to do xyz) or turned out to be altogether wrong, either because it changed since they heard the information or because they were just lying to begin with.

The elephant in the room for me with this is, why would someone privy to such a deep level of information (especially about what would need to be the Japanese ends of Sony, Capcom) go to 4chan or any online message board to spread it?

 

[Xbro]

The fact that they are still porting games can only mean it's paying off for them, compare to Wii U where it got 1 or 2 games from publishers before abandoning it

How many of the games from that list have released?

 

[Fiendcode]

Not sure why you're up in arms.

Because it's looking like Switch might have better Japanese 3rd party support than PS4 did their first years. That's really all it comes down to.

 

[D.Lo]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is this still the 'rumour' being sourced to some post on 4chan? Again, perhaps my memory is just bad, but it sounds like the only facts it got right in any provable capacity is that there was a mainline MH game being developed for the PS4 (exclusive or otherwise). The rest of it was either information that is impossible to verify (Sony paying Capcom to do xyz) or turned out to be altogether wrong, either because it changed since they heard the information or because they were just lying to begin with.

It also predicted the name of the next game, double cross, and PS4 MH5 also sounded implausible at the time (the GAF threads were basically a collection of 'nah no way' replies). Both big things in it were true in the end.

Yes all the other stuff was unprovable internal machinations, and gameplay conjecture, which could have changed or could have been interpretations. But it got the big, verifiable facts completely correct, when both were not really easy predictions to guess.

 

[Aostia]

How many of the games from that list have released?

I think three, with the next being Azure2

 

[Fiendcode]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is this still the 'rumour' being sourced to some post on 4chan? Again, perhaps my memory is just bad, but it sounds like the only facts it got right in any provable capacity is that there was a mainline MH game being developed for the PS4 (exclusive or otherwise). The rest of it was either information that is impossible to verify (Sony paying Capcom to do xyz) or turned out to be altogether wrong, either because it changed since they heard the information or because they were just lying to begin with.

The elephant in the room for me with this is, why would someone privy to such a deep level of information (especially about what would need to be the Japanese ends of Sony, Capcom) go to 4chan or any online message board to spread it?

The source was given the rumor second hand from a friend in the industry. It also got XX's title and later Switch release correct.

 

[Principate]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is this still the 'rumour' being sourced to some post on 4chan? Again, perhaps my memory is just bad, but it sounds like the only facts it got right in any provable capacity is that there was a mainline MH game being developed for the PS4 (exclusive or otherwise). The rest of it was either information that is impossible to verify (Sony paying Capcom to do xyz) or turned out to be altogether wrong, either because it changed since they heard the information or because they were just lying to begin with.

The elephant in the room for me with this is, why would someone privy to such a deep level of information (especially about what would need to be the Japanese ends of Sony, Capcom) go to 4chan or any online message board to spread it?

It got the double cross name right before it was announced, it got the MH XX switch port correct, it got MHW formally called 5 being on every platform except the switch correct. It got some aspects wrong, the person the rumour was from didn't seem to be from Capcom themselves so some of it was conjecture and obviously things change. Also the low capcom expectations from the wsj japan report from an analyst also line up with the stated narrative.

Either way the consecutive number of correct claims which aren't the easiest to predict lead credence to to the rumour.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Does whether the MHW rumour was right or wrong really matter?

 

[Fdkn]

I don't know why the fuck you wont just do this if you see something we are all missing.

Because as I said in my very first post, the question was rhetoric. You are the one who wanted to engage to prove whavever point you wanted to prove.

I'm not the one making lists. I'm pointing that they are skewed and ignore a relevant part of the market, that drive sales. Less than some games, more than other ones. You, me, or anyone else can't quantify by how much, because only a handful of 3rd party franchises make sales spike in a notable way.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

It also predicted the name of the next game, double cross, and PS4 MH5 also sounded implausible at the time (the GAF threads were basically a collection of 'nah no way' replies). Both big things in it were true in the end.

But I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything else about it that can actually be confirmed to be true? The first is specific enough, but hardly implausible given they had already put out Monster Hunter X (that is, 'Monster Hunter Cross'). The second is something thought to be unlikely at the time, sure, but plenty of people looking to stir the pot certainly imagined that MH could go back to a Sony platform.

The point remains that a number of other things it said turned out to not be true--it being PS4 exclusive, or rather that Sony is paying some nonspecific monies solely to make sure Nintendo doesn't get it. On top of this, the original post claims the game is called 'Cross-Cross', not 'Double Cross', mission timers aren't gone, and 'MH Portable' is not Switch exclusive (since XX is on both 3DS and Switch).

 

[D.Lo]

Does whether the MHW rumour was right or wrong really matter?

Not really, except it means MH5P is definitely coming. the argument is mostly with people falsely claiming it got everything wrong, when it did not, all its facts about game titles and platforms were correct.

 

[Principate]

Does whether the MHW rumour was right or wrong really matter?

If it's it correct it means there is indeed a MH switch exclusive game line coming ala mario. If not the series may still come to the platform. Or just never be seen on it again. Either way not important but interesting.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Because as I said in my very first post, the question was rhetoric.

So you just wanted to talk to talk but when the time comes to actually prove it when given an explanation of why it is like that your excuse is "I dont wannt argue. Just say stuff"?

Zero good faith displayed. Don't come in and drop knowledge then back off when someone actually wants to engage you seriously. That's just annoying.

Not really, except it means MH5P is definitely coming. the argument is mostly with people falsely claiming it got everything wrong, when it did not, all its facts about game titles and platforms were correct.

If it's it correct it means there is indeed a MH switch exclusive game line coming ala mario. If not the series may still come to the platform. Or just never be seen on it again. Either way not important but interesting.

I think it's pretty obvious there will be a Switch MH even ignoring the rumour. The only surprising thing was World not being on Switch.

 

[NintendosBooger]

Because as I said in my very first post, the question was rhetoric. You are the one who wanted to engage to prove whavever point you wanted to prove..

How cute. A rhetorical question not meant to be answered to on a discussion forum. Almost whimsical, in fact, like a dangling of bait or a gotcha moment. Stick out that broad chest, you passive aggressive beast you.

 

[Fdkn]

Not really, the argument is with people falsely claiming it got everything wrong, when it did not, all its facts about game titles and platforms were correct.

But it didn't. It called the 'ps4 exclusive' MH5, while it's not called that and it's not exclusive.

The unprecedent and risky guess of a future MH game being on switch doesn't need a crystal ball to be known, and the original rumour would still be wrong.

So you just wanted to talk to talk but when the time comes to actually prove it when given an explanation of why it is like that your excuse is "I dont wannt argue. Just say stuff"?


Zero good faith displayed.

Arguing certain topics on MCthreads does not go anywhere, as the last two pages prove. Let's go back to bash Capcom

 

[Principate]

But it didn't. It called the 'ps4 exclusive' MH5, while it's not called that and it's not exclusive.

The unprecedent and risky guess of a future MH game being on switch doesn't need a crystal ball to know, and the original rumour would still be wrong.

No it didn't it specifically said not on the switch and said the deal meant it could come on the xb1 and pc. If you read the rumour it explicitly says all this.

I was one of the most ardent detractors of it at the time, but the degree of what it got correct has made me realise to at least give it some credence. All of this shot is not easy to predict.

 

[Chris1964]

No it didn't it specifically said not on the switch and said the deal meant it could come on the xb1 and pc. If you read the rumour it explicitly says all this.

If you post the rumor so that anyone stops reading things the way he wants you will save us from 5 more pages of pointless discussion.

 

[Principate]

If you post the rumor so that anyone stops reading things the way he wants you will save us from 5 more pages of pointless discussion.

I did before ages back, on mobile will see if I can find it again.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

No it didn't it specifically said not on the switch and said the deal meant it could come on the xb1 and pc. If you read the rumour it explicitly says all this.

Just so this is clear, we're talking about this, yes?:

It states:
-There is a 'MH5', and a 'MH Cross-Cross'
-MH5 is funded by a Sony "desperate for Japan" which forbids a Switch release, but doesn't care about other platforms
-Second image claims PS4 and PC only, claims some weapons cut
-MH5 has 'westernised' combat, no mission timers, and is open world
-MH Portable (the aforementioned Cross-Cross, presumably) is Switch-exclusive
-Portable is 'traditional'

To me, the problematic parts are:
-PS4-exclusive or PS4/PC only: Obviously not true, it's coming out on XB1
-Sony desperate for Japan funding the project: Doesn't make a great deal of sense to go through the trouble to fund all of this to keep it out of Nintendo's hands only to ignore XB1 and PC anyway
-MHW does have mission timers, combat doesn't seem to be fundamentally different (the difference that there is is the tracking/non-battle parts, I would say)
-The next Portable MH (XX) is on 3DS as well as Switch

 

[Guamu]

As a frequent lurker in MC Threads: Some of you guys can become really insufferable at times.

 

[D.Lo]

But it didn't. It called the 'ps4 exclusive' MH5, while it's not called that and it's not exclusive.

No it did not. You can look this up you know.

Direct quote from original rumour post.

mh5 contract specifically forbids switch release but doesn't care about xbox or pc

And as for 'it's not called that':

http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/001/538/1538583/
"Originally, it was going to be called "Monster Hunter 5", but the development team really liked the name, 'World'"

EDIT: Thanks for posting full rumour. Makes it all clear.
Everyone thought it was garbage at the time, but it got so much right it now seems to have been at least semi-legit.

 

[Principate]

Just so this is clear, we're talking about this, yes?:

It states:
-There is a 'MH5', and a 'MH Cross-Cross'
-MH5 is funded by a Sony "desperate for Japan" which forbids a Switch release, but doesn't care about other platforms
-Second image claims PS4 and PC only, claims some weapons cut
-MH5 has 'westernised' combat, no mission timers, and is open world
-MH Portable (the aforementioned Cross-Cross, presumably) is Switch-exclusive
-Portable is 'traditional'

There's more to it. He actually makes a few more posts and corrects in more MH general's threads. Basically the MH XX announcement and afterwards.

Those are the main ones however. It mentions the switch xx port in one of them.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Arguing certain topics on MCthreads does not go anywhere, as the last two pages prove. Let's go back to bash Capcom

The discussion could continue if you just pointed out the relevant titles 🙄

Do you actually want us to bash Capcom or was that rhetorical too?

 

[Fiendcode]

But I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything else about it that can actually be confirmed to be true? The first is specific enough, but hardly implausible given they had already put out Monster Hunter X (that is, 'Monster Hunter Cross'). The second is something thought to be unlikely at the time, sure, but plenty of people looking to stir the pot certainly imagined that MH could go back to a Sony platform.

The point remains that a number of other things it said turned out to not be true--it being PS4 exclusive, or rather that Sony is paying some nonspecific monies solely to make sure Nintendo doesn't get it. On top of this, the original post claims the game is called 'Cross-Cross', not 'Double Cross', mission timers aren't gone, and 'MH Portable' is not Switch exclusive (since XX is on both 3DS and Switch).

It also said MH5 would be open world, which is also sort of true. Also there has been some streamlining in gathering and item mgmt so that's also not entirely wrong either.

Cross Cross vs Double Cross seems like semantics if both are written XX, meanwhile everyone figured it'd be called XG. The post also said PS4 exclusive for MH5 but also PC so it sort of contradicted itself. It never mentioned XB1, that info first came from Matt here on Neogaf.

 

[Vena]

What happened in here? Why are we back to discussing this old rumor?

 

[Fdkn]

The discussion could continue if you just pointed out the relevant titles 🙄

Do you actually want us to bash Capcom or was that rhetorical too?

Funny thing, I just went to the first post you quoted and it has titles in there, and a nice looking 'etc.' It's meant to be a general statement.
------
It doesn't matter what I want, thread is already on the way to it.

 

[Fukuzatsu]

What happened in here? Why are we back to discussing this old rumor?

Chris's post back on page 8, I guess.