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Introducing NeoGAF Gold
Media Create Sales: Week 38, 2014 (Sep 15 - Sep 21)
- Thread starter Chris1964
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I can't imagine Koei Tecmo signed a deal where they don't get notable royalties per every copy sold given they have the upper hand in this relationship on the basis that Nintendo needs Wii U games and Koei Tecmo doesn't need Wii U games.
My personal suspicion though is just that the expectations aren't especially high so when it does above those it raises the results.
Koei Tecmo isn't a big company so it doesn't take a lot to move their fiscal results around.
My personal suspicion though is just that the expectations aren't especially high so when it does above those it raises the results.
Koei Tecmo isn't a big company so it doesn't take a lot to move their fiscal results around.
I doubt they have the upper hand to any real extent. Nintendo has been providing them with steady work for the last couple of years and Pokémon Conquest and Hyrule Warriors will probably provide decent returns based on sales volume alone.
I think letting KT publish the game in Japan was probably enough to sweeten the deal. Hyrule Warriors didn't sell amazingly but you've got to consider that KT likely has no development costs to earn back.
I think letting KT publish the game in Japan was probably enough to sweeten the deal. Hyrule Warriors didn't sell amazingly but you've got to consider that KT likely has no development costs to earn back.
Well, in the normal publisher-developer relationship, a publisher pays the development cost and the developer basically never sees a dime of any sort of royalty, so then their statement would have to apply 100% to Japanese sales.
Even if they're getting like $5-$10 a copy that's vastly more than almost any independent developer would get from their publisher unless they were the absolute cream of the crop.
That said, the vast majority of deals aren't a publisher lending their development team to another publisher.
Even if they're getting like $5-$10 a copy that's vastly more than almost any independent developer would get from their publisher unless they were the absolute cream of the crop.
That said, the vast majority of deals aren't a publisher lending their development team to another publisher.
Well I assume they are getting royalties on every copy sold(in the west as well) I just think any money will be made on the basis that they expect it to sell 850K in the west and not only them having an exceptionally strong royalty rate.
Likewise Namco Bandai probably jumped at the chance to work on Smash Bros based on the sales volume of the series.
EDIT: Which is why the game is Hyrule Warriors and not Fire Emblem Warriors.
Likewise Namco Bandai probably jumped at the chance to work on Smash Bros based on the sales volume of the series.
EDIT: Which is why the game is Hyrule Warriors and not Fire Emblem Warriors.
Koei Tecmo is in a weak spot.
They desperately need someone to fund their games or licenses to sell their games.
In the current climate (with raising costs) their biggest seller (which usually top 1-2 million at best) can't carry them.
Project Zero is a series which can't survive without Nintendo.
Musou is being crossed with other more popular IPs like Dragon Quest, Zelda or One Piece.
Their higher profile titles Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden can at best achieve 1-2 million in sales (actually DoA5 transitioned to F2P).
They desperately need someone to fund their games or licenses to sell their games.
In the current climate (with raising costs) their biggest seller (which usually top 1-2 million at best) can't carry them.
Project Zero is a series which can't survive without Nintendo.
Musou is being crossed with other more popular IPs like Dragon Quest, Zelda or One Piece.
Their higher profile titles Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden can at best achieve 1-2 million in sales (actually DoA5 transitioned to F2P).
Not only is this not the normal developer-publisher relationship because Koei Tecmo is itself a publisher, but there's also a brand crossover here. It's really more like Mario & Sonic Olympics or Pokémon Conquest than it is a purely contracted game like Wonderful 101 or Metroid: Other M.
I'd agree KT likely has significantly more leeway than the usual contracted developer but that's more to do with who they are and what they bring than it is any deficit on Nintendo's part. And I'm not sure they even bring enough bargaining power to really have "the upper hand" either.
I'd agree KT likely has significantly more leeway than the usual contracted developer but that's more to do with who they are and what they bring than it is any deficit on Nintendo's part. And I'm not sure they even bring enough bargaining power to really have "the upper hand" either.
I would consider basically any relationship in which you can get a royalty instead of just the budget to be an upper hand when that's not the way the vast majority of scenarios work.
Obviously they're not dictating the exact nature of the product and the deal to Nintendo, but I feel they almost assuredly have a lot more strength than say Ubisoft signing a random developer.
I realize the term might paint a more drastic picture than I mean to imply.
Obviously they're not dictating the exact nature of the product and the deal to Nintendo, but I feel they almost assuredly have a lot more strength than say Ubisoft signing a random developer.
I realize the term might paint a more drastic picture than I mean to imply.
Yeah, that's basically what I meant to imply.
A publisher wants to go after opportunities that earn a good amount of money whereas an independent developer just wants to stay open.
As such, you can usually get a number of concessions that wouldn't have to be given out to a regular independent developer in order to partner up.
Therefore, I feel it's quite likely they're earning money off of Western sales as part of their contract, since otherwise it likely would have made sense to sign a different partnership where they could make royalties or invest in another IP or musou branch they own.
A publisher wants to go after opportunities that earn a good amount of money whereas an independent developer just wants to stay open.
As such, you can usually get a number of concessions that wouldn't have to be given out to a regular independent developer in order to partner up.
Therefore, I feel it's quite likely they're earning money off of Western sales as part of their contract, since otherwise it likely would have made sense to sign a different partnership where they could make royalties or invest in another IP or musou branch they own.
Koei is actually in best shape they ever been. Their stock is up 70% compared to last year and they are seeing big growth in China/Asia
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/20...overseas-sales-growth-from-se-asia-china.html
They expect overseas sales to accounts for 30% of their revenue next FY. They are slowly turning into a global company and been hiring lots of people outside Japan
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/20...overseas-sales-growth-from-se-asia-china.html
They expect overseas sales to accounts for 30% of their revenue next FY. They are slowly turning into a global company and been hiring lots of people outside Japan
Same here. Maybe Zero Escape needs a mascot 
That and it's rather "raw and gritty" approach probably isn't too popular with the Japanese regions, though it probably helped the cult following it has in the west in comparison.
What?
edit: Oh, I forgot who I was replying to. Sorine has a "unique" way of reporting Warriors sales. By "this gen," he's referring to just PS4 (maybe Vita too) and Wii U. Comparing late ports on PS4 to an exclusive, while simultaneously ignoring all of the PS3 releases post-Wii U isn't distorting the truth at all.
edit: Oh, I forgot who I was replying to. Sorine has a "unique" way of reporting Warriors sales. By "this gen," he's referring to just PS4 (maybe Vita too) and Wii U. Comparing late ports on PS4 to an exclusive, while simultaneously ignoring all of the PS3 releases post-Wii U isn't distorting the truth at all.
Okay that makes sense. By "upper hand" I'd assumed you meant in terms of the relationship (with Nintendo) directly not comparably versus the usual contracted developer/publisher agreement, and one that would equate to holding a majority of power between parties. Nintendo did literally dictate the nature of the game (Musou with Zelda skin), they held oversight and they're publishing where it's going to do the vast majority of sales worldwide so I'd assume they still held more power in this specific relationship at the end of the day.
This agreement doesn't seem too usual for Nintendo either, they've recently entered into similar brand collaborations with Sega, Bandai Namco, Atlus, Spike Chunsoft and even Koei Tecmo themselves before. They do seem like sort of a leader in this area though, at least among major global publishers.
This agreement doesn't seem too usual for Nintendo either, they've recently entered into similar brand collaborations with Sega, Bandai Namco, Atlus, Spike Chunsoft and even Koei Tecmo themselves before. They do seem like sort of a leader in this area though, at least among major global publishers.
sorine actually forgot a compelling addition; Samurai Warriors Chronicles 1 and 2nd on 3DS.
SWC: 43,044 / 155,059
SWC 2nd: 35,806 / 68,360
Hyrule Warriors still debuted higher than both of those and those were also exclusives, hell SWC was a launch title (I say this as some argue launch titles benefit greatly from "launch hype".
Edit: Just for the hell of it:
Hyrule Warriors: 78,773 / 114,252
Edit: Fixed both SWC numbers due to japanltdranking having up-to-date numbers.
SWC: 43,044 / 155,059
SWC 2nd: 35,806 / 68,360
Hyrule Warriors still debuted higher than both of those and those were also exclusives, hell SWC was a launch title (I say this as some argue launch titles benefit greatly from "launch hype".
Edit: Just for the hell of it:
Hyrule Warriors: 78,773 / 114,252
Edit: Fixed both SWC numbers due to japanltdranking having up-to-date numbers.
I feel this happened because it works well for the unique case of the vendor and publishers in question.
Like a lot of these publishers have staff they can't put to notably great use, and Nintendo has more IPs than they can leverage effectively and consistently.
Making Smash doesn't make sense when you can make Call of Duty or Batman or Far Cry instead, but it makes a lot of sense when your best selling series is Tekken.
Giving Smash to an outside publisher to develop also makes a lot of sense when it's going to get the game done faster and better than actually handling it internally as well, especially when you never really had a longstanding dedicated team to manage the franchise.
Similarly teaming up Sonic with Mario works well for both parties (Sonic still has some solid draw in various regions, Mario needs no explanation), and it's not like Sega has all that much else going for them.
And with this case, obviously Zelda appeals to a lot of people internationally while Musou appeals to more people domestically to an extent that the team-up actually works for them in terms of exposure even if it's not a slam dunk sales win.
I don't really see this kind of scenario existing more broadly though because Sony and Microsoft aren't overflowing with IPs compared to output and the few remaining major Western publishers are too big to actually need someone else's IP, especially if it has a major profit depreciation.
Like a lot of these publishers have staff they can't put to notably great use, and Nintendo has more IPs than they can leverage effectively and consistently.
Making Smash doesn't make sense when you can make Call of Duty or Batman or Far Cry instead, but it makes a lot of sense when your best selling series is Tekken.
Giving Smash to an outside publisher to develop also makes a lot of sense when it's going to get the game done faster and better than actually handling it internally as well, especially when you never really had a longstanding dedicated team to manage the franchise.
Similarly teaming up Sonic with Mario works well for both parties (Sonic still has some solid draw in various regions, Mario needs no explanation), and it's not like Sega has all that much else going for them.
And with this case, obviously Zelda appeals to a lot of people internationally while Musou appeals to more people domestically to an extent that the team-up actually works for them in terms of exposure even if it's not a slam dunk sales win.
I don't really see this kind of scenario existing more broadly though because Sony and Microsoft aren't overflowing with IPs compared to output and the few remaining major Western publishers are too big to actually need someone else's IP, especially if it has a major profit depreciation.
I definitely agree with this, Nintendo's in a comparably unique situation where it makes more sense for them to leverage these kinds of deals. Nintendo also seems to only work with Japanese publishers on these co-branding/publishing projects though, I sort of wonder why that might be and if it's a reflection of their own priorities or their limits.
The only other deals like this from notable publishers I can really think of are Level 5's Layton/AA crossover, the various Musou extensions with Bandai Namco and Square Enix, and the other Mystery Dungeon spinoffs over the years. Are there any others?
The only other deals like this from notable publishers I can really think of are Level 5's Layton/AA crossover, the various Musou extensions with Bandai Namco and Square Enix, and the other Mystery Dungeon spinoffs over the years. Are there any others?
Street Fighter versus Tekken comes to mind, as does Capcom vs SNK, but not many others.
Nintendo did publish a LEGO title and SiNG Party by Activision, and let Next Level work with their IPs, so I don't think they'd be opposed to a Western collaboration, but I'm not sure there's much interest on the Western publisher side since most of the ones who would have benefitted have shut down.
Nintendo did publish a LEGO title and SiNG Party by Activision, and let Next Level work with their IPs, so I don't think they'd be opposed to a Western collaboration, but I'm not sure there's much interest on the Western publisher side since most of the ones who would have benefitted have shut down.
Don't know if this would be of any interest to your conversation but (going by memory) Nintendo published in Japan Ubisoft games like Rayman Legends, Just Dance and even Epic MIckey (Disney Int. from the Wii days). Going as back as the GameCube days, NIntendo lend some of it's character IP to EA, by having cameos of Mario characters in some of it arcade type sports games like NBA Street. SO the have been onto this from quite some time.
Sing Party and LCU aren't what I'm talking about, those are simply a contracted 1st party game and a 3rd party exclusive produced by a 1st party. What I'm talking about are branded IP collaborations and sometimes with regionally split publishing duties.
I forgot all the fighter crossovers! The SNK/Capcom ones were so long ago I'd probably discount them as not recent enough though. Nintendo and Konami also did a Mario DDR game way back as well. And actually the other Mystery Dungeon crossovers (Torneko, Chocobo, Druaga) are probably too old too now.
Tekken/SF is a good one though!
I forgot all the fighter crossovers! The SNK/Capcom ones were so long ago I'd probably discount them as not recent enough though. Nintendo and Konami also did a Mario DDR game way back as well. And actually the other Mystery Dungeon crossovers (Torneko, Chocobo, Druaga) are probably too old too now.
Tekken/SF is a good one though!
Huh? The Wii U is definitely not "last-gen" lol. I think all that Sorine is saying is that the Warriors franchise hasn't really found a successor console for its PS3 audience (b/w 3DS, Vita, PS4 & Wii U) yet.
Thus after Hyrule they are trying DQ Musou (PS4, PS3, PSV), Samurai Chronicles 3rd (PSV, 3DS, PSV looking like lead platform), and One Piece Pirate Warriors 3 (PS4, PS3, PSV). We'll see how these do I guess, but so far the titles have done terribly on PS4 and bad at best on Vita.
3DS:
3DS Samurai Warriors Chronicles 43,044 155,059 Koei Tecmo 2011-02-26
3DS Samurai Warriors Chronicles 2nd 35,806 68,360 Koei Tecmo 2012-09-13
3DS Dynasty Warriors VS 15,607 45,870 Koei Tecmo 2012-04-26
multiplats:
WIU Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper 6,184 35,000 Koei Tecmo 2012-12-08 - late port
PS3 Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 82,986 146,165 Koei Tecmo 2013-09-26
PS4 Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 7,129 11,852 Koei Tecmo 2014-06-26 - late port
PSV Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 24,825 48,225 Koei Tecmo 2013-09-26
PS3 One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 269,035 407,132 Bandai Namco 2013-03-20
PSV One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 54,509 103,757 Bandai Namco 2013-03-20
PSV Samurai Warriors 4 43,545 92,722 Koei Tecmo 2014-03-20
PS3 Samurai Warriors 4 149,068 251,807 Koei Tecmo 2014-03-20
PS4 Samurai Warriors 4 10,672 17,395 Koei Tecmo 2014-09-04 - simultaneous release
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 8: Xtreme Legends 36,588 59,169 Koei Tecmo 2013-11-28
PSV Dynasty Warriors 8 with Xtreme Legends 11,627 11,627 Koei Tecmo 2013-11-28
PS4 Dynasty Warriors 8 with Xtreme Legends 13,576 40,823 Koei Tecmo 2014-02-22 - late port of poorly selling expansion
Vita:
PSV Dynasty Warriors Next 32,044 80,052 Koei Tecmo 2011-12-17
Wii U:
WIU Hyrule Warriors 78,773 119,948 Koei Tecmo 2014-08-14 - original
PS3 Warriors games since 2012:
PS3 One Piece: Pirate Warriors 627,214 828,132 Bandai Namco 2012-03-01
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 8 213,338 371,531 Koei Tecmo 2013-02-28
PS3 Dynasty Warriors: Gundam Reborn 113,493 214,225 Bandai Namco 2013-12-19
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 7: Empires 67,358 103,800 Koei Tecmo 2012-11-08
Thus after Hyrule they are trying DQ Musou (PS4, PS3, PSV), Samurai Chronicles 3rd (PSV, 3DS, PSV looking like lead platform), and One Piece Pirate Warriors 3 (PS4, PS3, PSV). We'll see how these do I guess, but so far the titles have done terribly on PS4 and bad at best on Vita.
3DS:
3DS Samurai Warriors Chronicles 43,044 155,059 Koei Tecmo 2011-02-26
3DS Samurai Warriors Chronicles 2nd 35,806 68,360 Koei Tecmo 2012-09-13
3DS Dynasty Warriors VS 15,607 45,870 Koei Tecmo 2012-04-26
multiplats:
WIU Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper 6,184 35,000 Koei Tecmo 2012-12-08 - late port
PS3 Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 82,986 146,165 Koei Tecmo 2013-09-26
PS4 Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 7,129 11,852 Koei Tecmo 2014-06-26 - late port
PSV Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 24,825 48,225 Koei Tecmo 2013-09-26
PS3 One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 269,035 407,132 Bandai Namco 2013-03-20
PSV One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 54,509 103,757 Bandai Namco 2013-03-20
PSV Samurai Warriors 4 43,545 92,722 Koei Tecmo 2014-03-20
PS3 Samurai Warriors 4 149,068 251,807 Koei Tecmo 2014-03-20
PS4 Samurai Warriors 4 10,672 17,395 Koei Tecmo 2014-09-04 - simultaneous release
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 8: Xtreme Legends 36,588 59,169 Koei Tecmo 2013-11-28
PSV Dynasty Warriors 8 with Xtreme Legends 11,627 11,627 Koei Tecmo 2013-11-28
PS4 Dynasty Warriors 8 with Xtreme Legends 13,576 40,823 Koei Tecmo 2014-02-22 - late port of poorly selling expansion
Vita:
PSV Dynasty Warriors Next 32,044 80,052 Koei Tecmo 2011-12-17
Wii U:
WIU Hyrule Warriors 78,773 119,948 Koei Tecmo 2014-08-14 - original
PS3 Warriors games since 2012:
PS3 One Piece: Pirate Warriors 627,214 828,132 Bandai Namco 2012-03-01
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 8 213,338 371,531 Koei Tecmo 2013-02-28
PS3 Dynasty Warriors: Gundam Reborn 113,493 214,225 Bandai Namco 2013-12-19
PS3 Dynasty Warriors 7: Empires 67,358 103,800 Koei Tecmo 2012-11-08