See this is what I don't get, on paper outside the low CPU clock speed and the slow ram the Wii U is technically more advanced than the PS3 and 360 in both GPU and memory. So wouldn't this potentially lead to trade offs down the road that could give the Wii U an advantage over the 360/ps3?
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Metro Last Light dev: 'Wii U has horrible, slow CPU' [Up: DICE dev comments]
- Thread starter PrivateRyan
- Start date
See this is what I don't get, on paper outside the low CPU clock speed and the slow ram the Wii U is technically more advanced than the PS3 and 360 in both GPU and memory. So wouldn't this potentially lead to trade offs down the road that could give the Wii U an advantage over the 360/ps3?
metalslimer
Member
Have you been reading at all?
toddhunter
Member
It could. See the history of PS3 ports and the current state of play in terms of pending new consoles and priorities to see why it may not.
Maybe we're all looking at this the wrong way. What if Nintendo were initially going to put an even weaker CPU in the Wii U, but they finally changed their minds and opted to push for something a little better. People forget that the Wii was a weak SD console though it still had some excellent games and sold considerably well. At the time, many liked the Wii but just wished it was HD. Well now we actually have more than we asked for.
As for technical issues with the launch games. The Developers must accept the blame for their work ports. They obviously know what the machine can and can't do, so why were they trying to force code through it that obviously wasn't going to run well. A good developer will always build something that runs well on what they have in front of them. Besides, all developers should be looking to build exciting games that make the most of the consoles unique abilities. All I've seen so far are lazy and uninspired attempts to utilize the touch pad.
To all developers: More original games please. I don't want to see inferior versions of the same games that I can already buy for my 360 or PS3.
As for technical issues with the launch games. The Developers must accept the blame for their work ports. They obviously know what the machine can and can't do, so why were they trying to force code through it that obviously wasn't going to run well. A good developer will always build something that runs well on what they have in front of them. Besides, all developers should be looking to build exciting games that make the most of the consoles unique abilities. All I've seen so far are lazy and uninspired attempts to utilize the touch pad.
To all developers: More original games please. I don't want to see inferior versions of the same games that I can already buy for my 360 or PS3.
In theory, yes. But it seems that's utterly dependent on the engine and design demands. It's also dependent on dev's to make a ground-up game for Wii U, or, use it as the lead platform, and what are the odds of that happening with XB3/PS4 on the horizon.
My feeling looking at both the timeline of it's launch as well as a need to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses is that most 3rd parties won't bother. Porting simply 360/PS3 games is difficult mainly due to the extremely low clockspeed, something that dev's really didn't worry as much about with the others, both have 3GHz or higher main cores. So engines were built by and large to fall back on that, which means lots of scaling back and energy put into doing things differently with Nintendo's CPU. Most dev's simply won't bother, and Nintendo consciously made that choice knowing that modern HD engines thirsted so to speak a 2GHz or more CPU. So clearly, the mission to "appeal to the hardcore" and "get third party support" was just a bunch of PR hot air, there was no hardware support for that. In fact it's clearly the opposite when you look at many of these decisions.
At this point? Sure. We already know its weaker in some areas. Applying terms like "More powerful" universally is what led to all the crazy expectations.
And its stupid to get pissed off at people for discussing it. This a new system and everybody wants to know whats under the hood.
toddhunter
Member
The whole "lazy" thing isn't correct. If devs had unlimited time and resources? Then sure, go ahead and claim it.
But how many WiiU's are out there right now? What is the exact expected return on mass effect 3? I would think very little.
Devs will do wonders with the WiiU when and if it makes sense to do so. Obviously first party devs will always push it. Third party devs need to split their time between Ps3/360, next gen, maybe PC and now WiiU.
Something always has to give in that scenario.
The good news is Nintendo has a good mario game early to drive sales. If it all takes off a slow CPU will mean very little. The bad news is there isn't much competition outside of that so quick and dirty ports make sense right now.
I disagree, the consoles has everything it needs to make brilliant hardcore games, and yes, it isn't built for cheap and lazy ports.
It might sound harsh, but we both know a little more effort would have produced better results. I think lazy is fair. If you want to sell something, it has to stay within the acceptable quality boundary.
soxinthebox
Member
It took 11 pages before someone made Nintendo management fan fiction?
You disappoint me crazy thread.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Blame will always lay with those writing the checks.
Devs have always done what they can with what they have. Occasionally that's an Angel Studio's porting RE2 to the N64. Other times it's the WiiU launch.
No. You clearly know nothing about the technology that is inside computers. Luckily I am an expert at this sort of thing from reading gaf for the last few days. Let me try to explain it.
It's all about the CPU in any modern device. Nothing else matters. A slow CPU sends out 'cycles' of electrons, like a postman on a bike going around a village. If a modern device's CPU is cycling too slow, that postman is not only not making his deliveries on time, but he is also regularly crashing or 'decycling' other mail, which in this analogy is frames. So not only is the CPU incompetent at it's own job, but it ruins every other component of the Wii U.
When your system hard locks, it isn't a software problem: that is a rogue CPU slowcycle crashing into your Wii U's OS. When you see awful pop-in in Batman:AC, a rogue wave of slow-cycles from that pathetic, genocidal idiot cousin CPU is decycling the texture map. It even explains the battery size in that large compartment of the Wii U tablet - Nintendo have had to leave room for when the slowcycles punch their way in, temporarily squeezing and stretching the battery beyond the ken of mortal man.
toddhunter
Member
Ideally yes, but that is no good if you are out of business, and that happens all too often. I'm sure all the devs would love every game to be 100%, but in reality risks are not something that is going to happen.
IrishNinja
Member
it begins
Naked Prime
Member
not that what he saying isn't true, but all I get from this is a developer with a B list game [albeit a game people like] using the Wii U's current status as a PR platform to churn some added interest in Last Light.Nothing more nothing less. They'll be better pedigreed developers that will do things with the WiiU that will outshine any merits the achieve with Last Light. Not that it won't be a good looking or playing game, but lets be honest. Even if it were on WiiU cross platform it wouldn't likely pass 2.5 million [at its best] in sales. Hell, I'd bet Timeplitters could either match or outsell it. But a wise move on the devs part to ride the wave.
so basically they shouldnt make games for a console that can't support the quality you're looking for. gotcha.
what are you even saying? you're dismissing everything he says because you don't think his game will ship enough copies?
freenudemacusers
Member
Lots of people were working on these; unfortunately they were writing them on the Wuu tablet and the battery kept dying before they could finish. True victims of the Wii-U launch, and they should not be forgotten.
Sure, in theory and principle you can make that case, it's a fair observation. But the reality is going to make the case kind of tricky. What I was referring to was the actual effort put into the timing, hardware and ability/flexibility of the system to enable and promote "hardcore appeal" or "3rd party support". And it's clear that the effort and focus to achieve those goals simply wasn't there, not in any money on the table sense anyway.
So we can say "great enthusiast games are more than possible on Wii U", and I don't dispute that, in fact it's inevitable. What I do dispute is Nintendo's efforts to encourage and cultivate that environment far and beyond just Nintendo IP and Bayonetta 2, and whoever else tries out for Wii U. But anyway, the point was Nintendo did about as much as they did for Wii with the goals in mind, which was little to none.
Nintendo will eventually run out of ideas and be required to fight in the same ring at the same level of competition. Eventually Nintendo will have to get serious with hardware or get left behind, and the sooner the better honestly. For us the gamers, it's best to see Nintendo and be forced to compete. As long as Nintendo can skate by and make millions with the Apple mentality of "do my own thing rather than compete with the big boys" and sell like hotcakes based on trend and flavor of the generation, this is exactly what we'll get. Watching a completely desperate and 100% ON Nintendo throwing everything they have at every title would be a beautiful time, not watching them get fat and resting on their laurels and playing it safe.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I keep hearing that's it's closest to 4770.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
If you're looking at just graphics, theres a bigger trade off in dealing with choking bandwidth than larger memory pools. This is where we CAN bring in those PC videocards for comparison.
Larger RAM doesn't help most scenes in framerate, but there are scenes where there are lots of textures and objects sitting in RAM not drawn on screen that hinder framerate but its much, much, much rarer.
It depends on whats on the GPU die. First off it won't be the performance equivalent of the 4770 card or anything close. If the TEV units, ARM, eDRAM, and whatnot all reside on the GPU that'll further reduce the space for things that make games look much prettier than on the 360/PS3
Anyway, I'm not a fan of Metro, but these guys do know their shit. I still expect marvels from Nintendo though, they'll make the hardware work.
Riiiggghhttt.
I'm a huge Nintendo fan and own every Nintendo console except for the Virtual Boy and Wii U (though I'll most likely pick up a Wii U sooner rather than later), but I think the blame for this falls squarely in Nintendo's lap.
They needed to release a console with unambiguously better hardware if they wanted any hope of getting decent third party ports, *especially* when they are launching at the end of the generation that that console most closely resembles in terms of power *and* they're starting out with a comparatively small user base.
What they did instead is release something that includes some baffling design decisions (what the hell is with that RAM? Nintendo used to be about speedy RAM and now they can't even match memory that's SIX years old?) that make it a hassle for third parties to tap what power is there.
Again with a small user base, third parties have no obligation to give Nintendo their ports. Nintendo should have been doing everything in their power to make it as easy as possible for third parties.
So it seems pretty much guaranteed that Wii U's third party support will be as bad or worse than the Wii's.
I guess we'll see if the tablet controller is enough to sustain the console like motion controls were for Wii, but I have a bad feeling about this.
They needed to release a console with unambiguously better hardware if they wanted any hope of getting decent third party ports, *especially* when they are launching at the end of the generation that that console most closely resembles in terms of power *and* they're starting out with a comparatively small user base.
What they did instead is release something that includes some baffling design decisions (what the hell is with that RAM? Nintendo used to be about speedy RAM and now they can't even match memory that's SIX years old?) that make it a hassle for third parties to tap what power is there.
Again with a small user base, third parties have no obligation to give Nintendo their ports. Nintendo should have been doing everything in their power to make it as easy as possible for third parties.
So it seems pretty much guaranteed that Wii U's third party support will be as bad or worse than the Wii's.
I guess we'll see if the tablet controller is enough to sustain the console like motion controls were for Wii, but I have a bad feeling about this.
gamergirly
Member
That's because it hasn't been released yet. Just a range of possibilities/speculation atm
Gotch , Ty. I was wondering why my search skills were lacking so badly. Is it normal for specs to be some what unknown even after a console releases? Did the same thing happen with 360 and PS3?
Randy Pitchford: Wii U Aliens Colonial Marines is best looking console version
Akihiro Suzuki, producer of the Dynasty Warriors franchise: "...But from a visual standpoint, based on the performance of the Wii U, we knew the game had the capability of having much better graphics than games on PS3 and Xbox 360..."
Shinen: "Due to the modern GPU architecture you have plenty of effects you can use to make Wii U games look better than anything you have seen on consoles before."
Maybe the Wii U lacks on the CPU department (and RAM speed) but overall, it's definitely more powerful than the HD twins.
Its just another 300$ device to me.
I make the purchase and dont even think about the cost. Its just a toy.
People act like these things are lifestyle choices.
No, they are playthings.
You either like them or you dont.
Sony and Microsoft released their specs, or didn't have strict NDAs on them. Most of their specs were known before release.
Wiktor
Member
Simple: they won't. Unless it's a huge COD-like game where it will make sense to bassicaly rebuild the game from scratch (think Black Ops on Wii). But those will be exceptions.
The only multiplats WiiU will be getting regularly are propably ports from mobile, handhelds and some low-end PC indies.
Poimandres
Member
I'm willing to speculate that the first won't be true. That upon analysis the Wii U version of Aliens will not run as well as the 360 version. Anyone feel free to bring this up when the game launches.
As for Dynasty Warriors, if the game had the capability of having much better graphics than the PS3/360 versions... then why does it perform worse than either?
We've heard this "best looking version" stuff from plenty of developers... and so far it's all turned out to be untrue.
You might be late but you're still well ahead of most here.
Yes, that includes you TM.I just get the feeling that the developers didn't have the resources or time to get the most out of the console, only time will tell, the next six months will be crucial for the Wii U.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I love how some people just refuse to accept the truth. "BUT ITS THE LAZY DEVS!!!"
Oh and you probably don't realize but your claim of them not being to able to get a publisher is even more ridiculous. Metro had some pretty good review scores and managed to sell 1.5 mill with absolutely no marketing.
Actually, you don't know what the truth is. It could very well be that they didn't even bother to optimize the code with the slightly different architecture (DSP for sound etc.) in mind.
OR they spent some time trying to optimize it carefully, and it was still slow as hell.
You don't know which of these two cases was true, so you can stop talking about accepting the truth. So far to you, me, everybody on this forum, there are two possibilities and no truth. At least until someone is able to provide something more convincing than "the CPU is slow, period".
Wiktor
Member
But this kind of proves how weak it is, doesn't it? If it really needs this much optimisation then it's not offering any substantial jump over HD twins power wise. Otherwise they would be able to just brute force it.
I'm sure software will improve and Wii U will be getting some beautiful games, but I hope nobody is expecting it to keep up in any shape or for with next-gen.
Poimandres
Member
Metro sold more copies than Bayonetta...
Naked Prime
Member
oh, no....what he says likely is true and I don't doubt it. But the timing of this amidst the Wii U's launch generates more buzz for Metro than anything else he tries to get across. Seemingly, not intentionally, but this comes across no different than how Crytek is viewing Crysis 3 and a Wii U port. The difference , being that Crysis 3 not being on Wii U doesn't generate buzz about Crysis 3, but an article about Last Light will draw less attention than an article about Last Light not on WiU "cuz it isn't powerful enough" {though its really we can't spare the resources}. So for a game that might not sell gangbusters anyway {I'm no Pachter}, linking it to current climate of "Wii U isn't next gen or even on par with current gen" does more good for Last Light than harm for Wii U. His points are likely valid for him and his team, but some what irrelevant for WiiU. So to me the statement only serves the purpose of hyping Last Light, though in a round about way.
EDIT: it has nothing to do with them being lazy...looking at other studio closures they need to be cautious about resource management and planning. And to a publisher the game would likely wouldn't move enough units on the WiiU to justify the cost, so not having it in the cards benefits them.
Dion Blaster
Member
Do consoles actually work like that (like PCs)? Legitimate question.
iamshadowlark
Banned
DSPs aren't new and don't require anything special to utilize, its the same concept that has been used with SPUs for 6 years now.
This isn't the first time we've heard about the CPU being weak and I trust 4A. They have one of the most advanced games out visually. To suggest that the WiiU is somehow too much for them to wrestle with is kind of hilarious.
Probably not. Not that the comparison makes much sense as Metro did most of its business to PC gamers looking for the most technically impressive visuals of that year.
Or you know, maybe they were just looking for a good game
Poimandres
Member
All I could find was Bayo passing 1 million, and Metro passing 1.5
If Bayo 2 is a potential Wii U system seller, then why would Metro be disqualified given their similar sales?