Muscle Wizard
Banned
Do we know the history of when MGS games' release dates are announced?
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MGSV: THE PHANTOM PAIN - E3 2014 Trailer (jp) [up: English]
- Thread starter Flying Wonkey
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Graphics Horse
Member
Right now, I'm most curious who these guys
are, and how they factor into everything. They're part of the whole category of "those who don't exist" in the E3 2013 trailer, but what does that mean? Are they just in Snake's head? Are they otherworldly beings? What is it Kojima?! Tell me!
La Li Lu Le Lo!
I think they're zombified guys in power suits who will be controlled by Psycho Mantis kid, the trailer bundled them up together so I think they're connected. I really doubt they're imaginary when they have such a high tech design. I'd love some boss battles against giant fire whales as well though.
BiggStankDogg
Member
I made a minor addition to that Venom Snake / Scarface pic...
The Silver
Member
well hey everyone ignored me talking about how Kaz wasn't referring to Big Boss as a monster in the evil sense in Metal Gear 2
Well, I share the same opinion as you, I think that was just an expression on how strong the guy was
I wonder what makes Miller betray BB. I could understand if he at some point decides that he went far enough and wants out, but to defect and join the Patriots is a little weird. He could have stayed neutral. Especially after what they did to him, his arm and leg..
Well, time to get some shut eye, it's kinda late here (or early, depending on the point of view)
Cheers!
SandMan2233
Member
I've wondered about that too... And though there is a theory that some (if not all) of the events in this game could be in Big Boss' head, I'm thinking there's something more figurative about these guys and the title attributed to them. I mean, if XOF is a secret-unit that is under the nose of Major Zero and CIPHER, then they technically don't "exist", if only because they don't fit within the world that Zero and the Patriots are trying to create.
And considering that both XOF and Diamond Dogs are attempting to be exons in the in-game history, separated from the machination of both the Times and CIPHER, it would make sense for them to be labeled "those that don't exist," if only because they don't fit in the plan, so-to-speak.
Also, that was totally a reference to Solidus Snake, hahaha! Wish Kojima would do more with that character!
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
The two guys are fighting each other, and both of them get held back and then push away those holding them, but there are also some that are cheering. It doesn't look much more than a scene where soldiers are fighting one another over an argument. Otherwise, if there is mind control involved, it means it's Big Boss and Co. who are in control because why would he fool around among them? I don't think this is it, but if it's the later it could be a test of an SOP-like system. Doubt it though. To me it looks more like Big Boss trying to stop them from fighting.
Oh on an unrelated note, remember what Snake said in MGS1 when Naomi asked him how he could have killed his own father: "He wanted it." Nice to see it still makes sense.
BTW any big conflict in Africa in those days? Any involving Soviets?
And I think people have to remember that Raiden's attack on the Gekkos in MGS4 was first shown in the Middle East, but was actually in South America in the game. Wouldn't surprise me if it was the same for some of the other scenes such as Quiet snipping.
I have trouble believing that Skull Face isn't the enemy in the end, because like I said and like you say, BB and Miller to back to work for Cipher/lead Foxhound, so they have to do something to warrant that, and taking down Skull Face would make sense since he wants to kill Cipher. But I don't think Mantis is on Skull Face's side, I'm pretty sure the first TPP trailer showed him on the verge of attacking a XOF soldier. I think he is trying to stop Big Boss, and we saw a horned Big Boss-like character riding a horse with a kid; an ogre is a monster who eats children, I think that is how Mantis sees Big Boss. So I'd guess he is working for Cipher, or else he is on his own. edit: Anyone knows if the chopper eaten by a whale is the same as Diamond Dogs' or a XOF chopper?
Those who don't exit and Skull Face being "a ghost without a past" are probably all related. They look like zombie ninjas and Skull Face looks like a zombie, so I'm guessing they are of the same origin.
Well, I share the same opinion as you, I think that was just an expression on how strong the guy was
I wonder what makes Miller betray BB. I could understand if he at some point decides that he went far enough and wants out, but to defect and join the Patriots is a little weird. He could have stayed neutral. Especially after what they did to him, his arm and leg..
Well, time to get some shut eye, it's kinda late here (or early, depending on the point of view)
Cheers!
He doesn't betray Big Boss, they both go back to work for Cipher.
Afghanistan isn't in Africa lol.
Shit, did I really just link the wrong thing?
Edit: Ohhhhh, nevermind, I misread his post. He was asking about Africa, that totally went in one ear and out the other. I thought he said Afghanistan since that's where the game is set (right?). Well now I just feel stupid.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
The game is also set in Africa.
SandMan2233
Member
I would argue, on the point of Psycho Mantis-kid almost attacking an XOF soldier... Let's assume that utilizing a psychic terror in a military unit is currently experimental... I assume that there is risk there, and my assumption further is that Skull-Face doesn't really care. The novelty of a psychic monster is more than enough to quell his interest.
Now, see, here's my issue with the idea presented here, though: FOXHOUND, I believe, is designed to take down CIPHER. As a matter of fact, I'd outright say that Big Boss (and possibly Skull-Face) created this unit specifically to work specialized OPS against CIPHER. Again, FOXHOUND refers more specifically to a HOUND THAT HUNTS FOXES. This makes it clear that the unit was created against CIPHER (which has its roots in the FOX Unit). Now, why on Earth Solid Snake, a member of FOXHOUND, would be tasked with taking out Big Boss? No clue, but I assume that CIPHER runs deep everywhere.
But what I'm positive of is that Big Boss and Skull-Face begin to work towards a common goal (elimination of CIPHER/Major Zero), and Miller isn't happy about that (which would explain his sentiment in Metal Gear 2 towards Big Boss).
Huh, I can't believe I didn't know that, I thought I'd been keeping up with info on this game pretty well. Guess I figured that since it was open world they'd be sticking with one big location. Do we know what part of Africa exactly?
As for the other guy's question (now that I've read it properly), I believe that the Soviets may have been lightly involved with the South African Border War around the mid-'80s, but I'm not positive.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
To the bolded, here is your potential answer and major spoilers for MGS4:
After beating Ocelot barehanded he reveals to Solid Snake that Big Boss and Ocelot were working against the patriots the entire time, and that Solid Snake, and essentially foxhound and all the stuff that he and Otacon did, was completely on behalf of the Patriots.
Essentially, Ocelot and Big Boss are the good guys and everyone else is bad. DAT ROLE REVERSAL.
Essentially, Ocelot and Big Boss are the good guys and everyone else is bad. DAT ROLE REVERSAL.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
Also in the latest trailer, they partially revealed Outer Heaven(from MG1) and of course they also hinted at that in the timeline at the end of Ground Zeroes(The South African government abandons an underground nuclear testing facility and storage complex deep in South Africa due to Nato pressure).
EDIT: Shit double post.
If the timeline jumps in this game the betrayal could be after they join cypher again. I been tossing around this idea in my head that when big boss screams at the end he is shouting kaaaaazzzz. How likely is it that the diamond dogs off shore facility is the eventual Foxhound training grounds and the base in africa becomes outer heaven big boss could probably run the two side by side and no one would really know.
SandMan2233
Member
Which makes sense honestly... Which is why I mentioned that CIPHER runs deep, lol. But that's an interesting thing to think about... I wonder how Kojima keeps up with all of this double-crossing and system-rigging, hahaha!
EDIT: But now I'm thinking... I mean, I know that Big Boss commanded FOXHOUND, but considering the facts... Big Boss apparently stopped caring by the time of the Outer Heaven incident. I don't believe that he was co-opted back into CIPHER/the Patriots, but again, I think we're missing a link here.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Any reason why Kojima didn't release a gameplay walkthrough of the Phantom Pain to public during E3?
SandMan2233
Member
Also: not trying to be "That Guy," but I'm loving the discussion in this thread. Civil, well thought-out, and brain-teasing. I love it, lol.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
That's interesting, because Outer Heaven as we know it in MG1 (the original Metal Gear) is set in South Africa.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
I don't think it makes sense. In MPO there was a justification for all this: Big Boss had to face a renegade FOX unit. Once he took them down he returned to the US and was given leadership of FOXHOUND. There is a LOT in TPP that is similar to MPO, and to me it's likely that XOF is "officially" a new FOX unit. In reality we know XOF is run by Cipher. There is no way that Big Boss and Miller can be buddies with Skull Face since he is the one who tortured/killed Paz and blew up Mother Base and nearly killed both BB and Miller (and really tried to).
Also, Big Boss and Miller know of this, because of the Chico tapes.
So my guess is Diamond Dogs gets wiped out somehow, Miller changes his mind and might even be the one who had it destroyed, Big Boss is left with seemingly no option but to join Skull Face, only to then take down XOF from within since now XOF is trying to rebel against Cipher. Both are heroes and go back to the US and lead Foxhound.
My cousin and I are working on organizing our thoughts into a video. The hard part is the editing.
I don't hate Yong, I just hate the way he sounds. Sure, he's a big fan like myself and many others, but sometimes I feel like he just gathers info that many of us are already discussing in forums like these and just spits it out over a video for a bunch of views. I don't really see what he himself brings to the table, theory-wise. As others have said, he seems to just go on and on about useless stuff, like the color or design of MB (which we know is customizable).
Colonel Campbell said in MGS1 that many of the FoxHound uprising members at Shadow Moses are former Outer Heaven mercenaries. That leads me to believe Big Boss had a relationship with many of them, which is why they so fondly follow Liquid Snake.
I have very little doubt it will be anything beyond a spring 2015 release. They've been working on the game for a long time now.
Calavera520
Member
Any word on where in Africa TPP will be set? The game takes place in the mid 1980s so my guess is Zaire (today D.R.C.). Some Soviet connections to the local government around that time frame so it might work.
The Silver
Member
No I wouldn't say they're good guys, they still wanted to plunge the world into chaos and constant warfare.
The Patriots and Big Boss's group both had to be stopped.
SandMan2233
Member
And thus the split is further cemented... I like the way you think, hahaha! So basically, you're saying that Big Boss is stuck with the lesser-of-two-evils option, goes for Skull-Face, eliminates that (probably due to a philosophical difference, considering this is Metal Gear, lol), and ends up with Miller anyways, though obviously there is a gap of thought there.
A book-ended "reunion," beginning in Afghanistan with the rescue of Miller, and then finished with an uncomfortable "union" of that which is broken.
Hmm.
I want this game now.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
Kojima is essentially Jack Sparrow.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Possibly by Big Boss himself, as he kills off some DD soldiers in the trailer.
Either that, or there are two Snakes in this game. One working for Skull Face and one working for Miller who is working for Cipher.
They usually don't release those long demos to the public for a variety of reasons. It could be they don't want the public to see an unpolished game, the demo is too long, etc. The demos you usually see on stage at press conferences are very highly polished and usually specifically made for that event.
You have to remember that E3 is technically a show where publishers are showcasing their games to retailers. So it is not uncommon for a publisher not to release a long chunk of gameplay they have at E3.
I'm sure in a couple of months we'll get an edited 10 minute version of the e3 demo though
RoyaleDuke
Banned
Yeah, even at the end of MGS4
Big Boss talks about how they both were wrong, and he let his pride, anger, and pain get in the way of everything.
I think that's what MGSV is probably going to touch a lot on, Big Boss just kind of losing it, Miller and him falling out, him sort of going back to Zero while keeping Outer Heaven under wraps in a way or at a distance in which he can command FoxHound while also leading Outer Heaven.
I think this game is going to explain a lot of the early period that is fairly hard to explain because we haven't really had any remakes or games really based around that.
Sure one could argue PO and PW were kind of about that but to me, TPP really is showcasing the Downfall and rise of Big Boss as we've been lead to see him as; a true villain, but from his perspective obviously, and possibly someone elses if the whole MG1 remake/partial remake thing happens in the endgame.
My thoughts are that it will either be set in South Africa around where Outer Heaven will be built (as we've been discussing above), or maybe Angola or Sudan.
Although it started in the '75, I believe the Angolan Civil War (which the Soviets were involved in, supporting the MPLA) flared up quite a bit in the mid-'80s. I'd have to read up on it a little more to get all the details, but it seems like a possible candidate for the African setting.
Sudan is the other good candidate, seeing as how they were also in the middle of a civil war in the mid-'80s.
There's still tons of other places it could be set though, since Africa was (and still is) a very war torn continent, mostly with civil wars that foreign militaries (like the Soviets) got involved in. My money is still mostly on South Africa being the African location in the game though.
"But I must say MGS users are special. They have vicarious experiences of Snake's suffering journey for 27 real years. (cont)"
"Players who've played few MGS, aged with the Snakes and share the memories & emotions. That's the strong point of long-lived series."
"For fans who really love the heroic Snakes, I must make them accept the Snakes fallen into the demon in TPP. (cont)"
"We have to head off while the end of story is already fixed. This is the hardest part, but not depicting villain, hero fallen into demon."
-@Hideo_Kojima_EN
"Players who've played few MGS, aged with the Snakes and share the memories & emotions. That's the strong point of long-lived series."
"For fans who really love the heroic Snakes, I must make them accept the Snakes fallen into the demon in TPP. (cont)"
"We have to head off while the end of story is already fixed. This is the hardest part, but not depicting villain, hero fallen into demon."
-@Hideo_Kojima_EN
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
One thing will never make sense to me is Big Boss thinking he was really going to screw Zero over with Outer Heaven. I like the Ghost Babel (non-cannon) plot that had it as a place built by Big Boss for The Patriots to basically gather the enemies of The Patriots (or whoever) in one place, keeping tabs on them, with Big Boss eventually going rogue and turning against The Patriots.
It would still make sense in a post TPP context for Outer Heaven to be known of by Zero, and BB knowing Zero knows he runs it, but ultimately just trying to go for it anyway.
Like I said, remember in MGS1 Snake says Big Boss wanted Snake to kill him. Just like The Boss, Big Boss tried to escape his fate but never could, so at the end he gives up and just wants to be killed.
It would still make sense in a post TPP context for Outer Heaven to be known of by Zero, and BB knowing Zero knows he runs it, but ultimately just trying to go for it anyway.
Like I said, remember in MGS1 Snake says Big Boss wanted Snake to kill him. Just like The Boss, Big Boss tried to escape his fate but never could, so at the end he gives up and just wants to be killed.
I'll tell ya why it's not canon...
Because I don't have a PSP and can't play it.
Plus, I doubt it's anywhere near as good as MGS3 or Peace Walker.
I'll tell ya why it's not canon...
Because I don't have a PSP and can't play it.
Plus, I doubt it's anywhere near as good as MGS3 or Peace Walker.
It was impressive for the time, but aside from an okay story, the gameplay, mechanics and practically everything else was bettered by Peace Walker.
SandMan2233
Member
It works because Big Boss is going solely on emotion this go-around... There's no thought, no training, no country, no ideal, here. Like you say, he doesn't care, and that's the interesting bit... We're going to see this character pushed to such a degree that he completely disregards the Status-Quo... And then he will proceed to mess-up said Status-Quo. MGS V has the potential to be the best of the series based solely on this aspect... I want to see Big Boss reach the tipping point...
I want to see him become sick of everything... Country, unit, ideal, philosophy. I want to see him realize that the only thing worth following is yourself, regardless of sanity.
I'll tell ya why it's not canon...
Because I don't have a PSP and can't play it.
Plus, I doubt it's anywhere near as good as MGS3 or Peace Walker.
You're right, but with the oddly wrong reasoning lol. It isn't canon because it wasn't made by Kojima.
Kojima puts MGS canon into two categories. MGS games made by him, and MGS games not made by him. The ones he makes are the 'real' ones.
SandMan2233
Member
But I'm getting the idea that Big Boss hated Liquid Snake, assuming Eli is Liquid...
My only assumption here is that the Genome Soldiers believed in Big Boss' ideal, regardless of Liquid. Which considering what we've seen of Eli (assuming he's Liquid), would make sense... That is, Liquid's insurrection at Shadow Moses was followed because of the inherent Big Boss philosophy, not necessarily because of Liquid (who insists "Father" hated him, which the latest trailer would insist).
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Anyone seeing what Kojima is posting on Twitter? I think TPP is going to be a dark game.
We have to head off while the end of story is already fixed. This is the hardest part, but not depicting villain, hero fallen into demon.
We have to head off while the end of story is already fixed. This is the hardest part, but not depicting villain, hero fallen into demon.
Right, but remember that the NGSF soldiers were being brainwashed by Psycho Mantis. I'm sure that will play a part in TPP. I'm not entirely convinced Big Boss hated Liquid, but more so hated Zero for cloning him and that spilled over to Liquid. Liquid was the only one to have a relationship with his father at a young age, of the three it seems.
Indeed. He wants us long time fans to understand and see Big Boss's decent from hero to demon.
Muscle Wizard
Banned
Well, no
Ocelot's (and EVA and Naomi's) plan didn't start until after Big Boss was "killed" at the end of MG 2. And they certainly were not the "good guys" as they were perfectly fine with carrying the banner for Big Boss's ideal world, except Naomi, who help made the *sigh* "FOXALIVE" virus (with Sunny's help) to keep intact the important controls of the Patriots so the world wouldn't fall into chaos. The whole point of the MGS series (according to games post MGS 3) is that both Big Boss and Major Zero had opposing ideas about what The Boss's sacrifice meant and it isn't until the end of MGS4 that Big Boss realizes that he and Zero were both responsible for the mess of the world and it's better for them to no longer be in it.
Muscle Wizard
Banned
It will make his death by lighter and hair spray that much more dramatic.
SandMan2233
Member
I see... And you're right: Naomi Hunter explicitly says that Psycho Mantis is augmenting the psyches of the Next Generation Special Forces (I just had to spell out the acronym, hahaha!). But... Jeez, this makes my thought hard. I can buy the idea that Big Boss hates the sinner (Zero) not the sin (Eli/Liquid), but I'm still confused about the apparent misdirection here.
The newest trailer clearly shows Big Boss and Skull-Face in direct contact and working together (since BB would kill Skull-Face if he had a chance otherwise, I'd assume), in front of the Metal Gear hangar...
But now I'm all confused on Psycho Mantis-kid (and it's definitely him; Kojima wouldn't put this guy in a damned gas mask like that unless it was purposeful). What's the angle here? Maybe Psycho Mantis is a Soviet Army thing, and he's used as a weapon against Diamond Dogs, but Big Boss recruits him?
Or he's XOF staff... Which makes Skull-Face even more suspect in every right.
Realize that we're going to go 'round in circles until Kojima and company release the damned thing.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
I understood all that, I even stated as much in another post about the that scene at the end there.
It's interesting though, the whole premise of the Metal Gear games is the reason I keep playing them(and the gameplay) even though
FoxAlive was straight up garbage.
Yeah, so very many questions here. I'm guessing that Skull Face put the blame on Zero for the destruction of Mother Base. Remember, Boss and Skull have history, according to one of the cassette tapes. I'm not sure what role Mantis plays here. Obviously something to do with mind control, but to what end, I am unsure.
What if the BB Solid Snake was trained under in Metal Gear was actually the real BB's dobbleganger so Snake was tricked in thinking Big Boss betrayed him but actually he never founded Foxhound and never actually met Solid Snake and was in Outer Heaven not knowing Cipher's plan in taking down Outer Heaven?
According to YongYea it's because the demo had story spoilers.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
I don't remember any story spoilers. At least not anything that hasn't been in previous trailers.
Yong is wrong. There were no story spoilers that weren't shown in the E3 2013 trailer (rescue Miller). The reason they didn't show it is because (according to Sean Eyestone of KP) Kojima wants to recreate that 'word of mouth' buzz that used to happen in past E3's before the whole livestreaming and whatnot. He says it in the most recent English Kojima Station.
SandMan2233
Member
Which begs the question, though I'm sure it has been asked: Who the Hell is Skull-Face?! Obviously he knows Big Boss in some personal-manner... I wonder if he's a former student of The Boss? Ground Zeroes loading screens specifically mentioned that Big Boss was the LAST student of The Boss...
Could Skull-Face be another student of The Boss we weren't allowed to know about? Could this overbearing theme of REVENGE include him? That is, could Skull-Face know and hate Big Boss for killing The Boss and being her "best" student?
The cassette tape in question just infuriates me, if only because it makes plain to listeners that Skull-Face isn't some Lone Ranger-mask wearing freak... He has history with Big Boss and (probably) The Boss. What if he was the first attempt at avenging Her and the world she wanted?
That is, Skull-Face is a former student of The Boss, learns she's been killed, goes forward with an idea to overthrow CIPHER (i.e.; Status-Quo). He doesn't really succeed, since he's focused on the person, not the stage (figuratively speaking)...
So Big Boss finally reaches a breaking-point, and obviously he goes with Skull-Face, since their goals are similar (to preserve the thought and philosophy of The Boss). But there's obviously a problem here, since Skull-Face must hate the man who took-down The Boss. But he plays along since, well, "Why not?" There's nothing to gain going against Big Boss and the Diamond Dogs... And plus, Skull-Face, assuming he was close with The Boss, would know that Operation: Snake Eater was a ruse for the East, designed to keep the West in-control of the vast fortune of the Philosopher's Legacy.
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