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Microsoft: Natal wont hurt our core focus
- Thread starter Monty Mole
- Start date
goldenpp72
Member
Linkified said:
Halo wars is fine, odst is an expansion and won't compare to reach on a content level, ninja blade.. lol. And GOTY versions don't count :/
MS first party was SUPER weak last year, compared to ps3s ratchet, uncharted 2, etc, and i'm a total 360 fan, but bad years happen.
This year is quite different, MS is doing well and we still haven't seen their tricks (hopefully) come e3.
I mean seriously.. We had:
2005
Kameo
PDZ
PGR3
2006
Gears of war
viva pinata
Ninety nine nights
2007
Crackdown
Blue dragon
Halo 3
Mass effect
Forza 2
PGR4
Viva pinata party animals
Shadowrun
Scene it 1
2008
Lost odyssey
Banjo nuts and bolts
Gears of war 2
Fable 2
Viva pinata TIP
Infinite undiscovery
Too human
Scene it 2
Ninja gaiden 2
Lips
Kingdom under fire
2009
Halo wars
Halo odst
Lips
Ninja blade
Forza 3
2009.. worst yet. I think most would agree that Gears of war and viva pinata beat out anything in 2009 and that was in the systems first full year :/
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
goldenpp72 said:
... you should probably have included Forza 3, then, which also came out in 2009.
godhandiscen said:
That was condescending. I guess my commerce degree is worthless then.
Some possibilities:
-Natal is unsuccessful, and is a resource drain from core games
-Natal is successful, but largely with casual games, and is a resource drain on core games as focus and available funding shifts
-Natal is successful with core games, and funding for core games increases
I consider the least likely possibility to be that Natal becomes a platform for pushing tons of core games to the casual audience. It is possible that Natal will increase core game funding, I just don't think it will. I made that simple concept model under the assumption that Natal's success does not lead to any related investment in core games (outside of some possible costs for Natal adaptation).
I'd guess based on the available information regarding the platform and its capabilities, its past demonstrations and the information I have on Microsoft that Natal is generally designed to appeal to the casual base with approachable games and a simplistic control scheme.
Those game studios were opened to create Natal games, and it's possible that the funding would not have existed for them if Natal were not there. It's also possible that some or all of that funding would have been put into core titles. Likewise with third party studios.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
So, uhm, has Natal been condemned to being the new powerglove yet? I get this sense that it's going to sell fairly well for a short time, but then is going to fall flat. I know a lot of people said the same thing about the Wii, but this feels different.
Trent Strong
Banned
I blame "Minority Report" for all of this mess.
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
rezuth said:Pull a Nintendo? Releasing 2 Zeldas in a console life? 3 Mario games? New IPs? What the hell are you talking about?
You can't tell me Nintendo has yet to deliver on the potential most of us thought the Wii remote had.
Please.
Metroid Prime and Wii Sports Bowling are pretty much the only games I've played on Wii where I got what I had imagined when I first demoed a Wii many years ago.
Everything else has either been shoehorned, tacked on, or is a collection of mini-games loosley based around waggle control that even the SIXAXIS could probably pull off.
I'm STILL waiting for my Lightsabre game.
Xbox Core Audience = Males 14-34
Nintendo Core Audience = Everyone except males 18-34
The consoles target nearly opposite audiences. The core audience is the demographic of people that buy most of the games. The splits aren't equal... for Nintendo it's probably 60/40: core/other, so they have to make sure that they make games that appeal to both audiences. For Microsoft, the split is closer to 80/20: core/other. There is no way they can ignore their core market. However, they certainly want to bring more casual (the Nintendo "core") gamers into the mix.
I think a lot of Nintendo gamers feel disenchanted because Nintendo has certainly shifted their focus. They still produce a lot of games for that 40%, but they know they now have to make games for the 60% audience.
------------------------
(no)edit: Christ... my writing is hard to follow. Basically, there's definitely room on the 360 for Natal, but it isn't being made to replace what's currently being made for the 360.
Nintendo Core Audience = Everyone except males 18-34
The consoles target nearly opposite audiences. The core audience is the demographic of people that buy most of the games. The splits aren't equal... for Nintendo it's probably 60/40: core/other, so they have to make sure that they make games that appeal to both audiences. For Microsoft, the split is closer to 80/20: core/other. There is no way they can ignore their core market. However, they certainly want to bring more casual (the Nintendo "core") gamers into the mix.
I think a lot of Nintendo gamers feel disenchanted because Nintendo has certainly shifted their focus. They still produce a lot of games for that 40%, but they know they now have to make games for the 60% audience.
------------------------
(no)edit: Christ... my writing is hard to follow. Basically, there's definitely room on the 360 for Natal, but it isn't being made to replace what's currently being made for the 360.
InsaneZero
Member
bmf said:
The Wii's main advantage over its competitors was its accessibility. I don't see how the Natal can show a greater degree of accessibility, judging by the technology's capabilities.
At the basic fundamental level, whether it be with the Wiimote, the Arc, or the Natal, people will simply move their hands to do similar stuff on screen. A more precise capture of movement won't drastically change how easily people can get into a game.
I'd be somewhat surprised if we actually make it to 2015 before we see an Xbox 3 or PS4, but I'd also be surprised to see them before 2013. This generation is turning out to be relatively long, and Natal might give it even more legs. We'll see. In general, it's really interesting how the traditional generation model is changing, though.
InsaneZero said:
Agreed. Even though Natal has no controller which does open up accessibility in theory, i just wonder if casuals wont understand how to interact (eg how to select options or start playing). Its all up to the implementation though. I expect the Wiimote's IR 'point and press' model will prove to be more straightforward.
Who's delusional enough to think that they have any chance of capturing the casual market? They've never been able to commit themselves to it. They 'tried' around the time Viva Pinata came out. They released one game for a $400 system and crossed their fingers that their careful poke at the market would result in some sort of deluge of new casual players.Mael said:
They've always been too afraid of losing their core audience to go all-out in trying to snag the casual crowd. I don't believe them just because they say so. I believe them because I don't think they're able to do otherwise, even if they want to.
MattyGrovesOrMe
Member
You're kidding yourself if you don't believe microsoft will release a Natal fitness game accompanied by a substantial marketing campaign.hyduK said:
goldenpp72
Member
MattyGrovesOrMe said:
I don't think most people mind if those games exist, we mind if that's all we get. Didn't reggie once try to back up wii core games and then mentioned wii fit? Lol.
As long as I keep getting my halos, ninja gaidens, resident evils, and whatever else, I don't care what else hits. My only beef is that rare seems to be a natal studio now which sucks for me as a rare fan.
goldenpp72
Member
AniHawk said:
True, and nintendo makes zelda and mario, that doesn't seem to lead to wii fans getting resident evil 5 (which they should have, imo) and the like. Nintendo carved a niche so strong that it seemingly repelled developers from making those traditional games, and the 'core games' wii does get are so niche it's hard to expect them to meet big sales (house of the dead and zack and wiki come to mind)
If MS were to push for natal fits and not court third parties to continue doing what they do now, it would be bad for me personally. As is, I can use my HD consoles for bulk 3rd party, some 1st party, and wii fills in the nintendo gap, it's fine. But if all 3 consoles became wiis but without the nintendo support, that would suck.
Nintendo locks down say, fatal frame 4 but then never releases it here, microsoft locks down ninja gaiden 2, mass effect, bioshock, and various other games, the system is just a far more viable platform for non nintendo games right now, and I hope this doesn't change.
I don't think it will because I don't expect natal to be that significant.
MattyGrovesOrMe said:
Fitness games could be huge for Natal.
I imagine if Just Dance comes out for Natal and MS can advertise it I can see that doing very well for them. Meaning it can sell Natals or consoles.
Anyone have any friends that play the game? The biggest complaint is that there isn't enough moves and it all has to do with the Wii controller limitations.
With Natal it can track legs and torso and everything else it sounds ideal for this sort of game. Don't know if it can handle 2 players that well...
Ubisoft better be making this game for Natal. This game sold gangbusters on the Wii it would be retarded not to.
Natal is technically the weakest of the 3 motion controllers. But it might have the biggest mass appeal.
We've seen the Wii with the weakest hardware but with the biggest mass appeal...so technology isn't as important as what you plan to do with it.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
grumble said:
I have not read your analysis yet. I just wanted to apologize if it sounded that way. I was not refering that against you, but at the myriads of people here who are scratching off Natal without even knowing flip about it.
mugurumakensei
Member
goldenpp72 said:
Incorrect, he mentioned Animal Crossing. Beyond that, you'd have a hard claim to say Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and Wii Music type games are all we've gotten. In fact, Nintendo has released more titles from its main franchises this generation than most prior generations. It also has released a few new "core" ips for both retail and digital distribution.
Edit: While Nintendo has had made foolish choices regarding localization, Tecmo takes the blame for Fatal Frame 4. It had several game-ending bugs. Disaster is a case of foolish choices though.
goldenpp72
Member
mugurumakensei said:
I'm actually pretty enthusastic for some wii stuff, i've enjoyed the light gun shooters and nintendo output stuff like galaxy, brawl, new mario and mario kart, and with an upcoming zelda, metroid, and hopefully a kirby and galaxy 2, it's looking good.
I don't really count zelda TP as a wii game considering I think it's pure shit, i'm glad I was convinced to go back and play zelda TP on the cube before writing it off, but I do think nitnendo has been doing a good job lately with their output.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
2 Minutes Turkish said:
Though some of your statements are false and/or misleading, I get the gist of your statement and agree.
This is why I madly hope Natal and/or Arc are successful both critically and sales-wise. I want a fire lit under Nintendo's ass before next-gen starts so they will fell the need to revolutionize instead of evolutionize. Nintendo has had no reason (yet) to try and fully take advantage of the motion controller they built. Hell, the only reason we got Motion+ this gen is because of Natal and Arc.
This holiday you can thank Microsoft and Sony for one-to-one sword fighting in Zelda Wii.
MightyHedgehog
Member
In what way do you mean? Technically, Natal is the most advanced of all three...by a long shot.Iknos said:
Somehow, I really doubt that this is the case. Ninty seemed to be headed toward a 'fix' for the original Wii remote limitations, anyway. The timing might be somewhat influenced by the competition, but I still kind of doubt that, too. The push for software to utilize the Motion +, though...that is likely given more force because of MS and Sony entering the ring.Skiesofwonder said:
MightyHedgehog
Member
Perhaps tracking a single point in a volumetric space for the Sony one and getting physical measurements from the sensors from Ninty's also, yes...definitely...more accurate. Outside of that, we should wait until things are finalized and announced first to be too sure about accuracy and limitations. Accuracy ain't everything.Iknos said:
That's what good teaching methods are for in introductions to games. Just getting used to using the interface for everything outside of the game will be a valuable tool in getting people acclimated and comfortable with it. It's the same thing that happened with gestures for touch-sense screens and trackpads and such. Hell, even mice were the same way at one time when everyone wondered why anyone would leave the safety of buttons and keys. Same thing happened with the mainstream adoption of analog sticks and triggers, though on a lesser level. Visual feedback in already visual interfaces (these are video games, after all) isn't a new concept. On an individual software basis, it will just take the right approach and a little bit of learning. Will it work for everything equally as well? No, of course not. That's why the software has be to very specifically informed by the interface (the same way all games on anything are for any standard and expected input device) from the start and not some shoehorned genre with legacy control methods and thinking.Zek said:
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
grumble said:
So you think the option in which Natal games achieve success, yet core game continue to thrive is not probable? Core games are already making a lot of money for them so if Natal games become successful, they'll switch one gold-egg-laying goose for the other instead of keeping both of them? Yeah, makes sense...
i really love this discussion about accuracy and stuff when :
nobody has tried it yet (like I'll believe the market speak :-/, msft advertisement is really not the one I'd trust with anything)
we don't even know what it can and cannot do (again pr speak is nice and all but actions speak louder)
And we sure as hell have NOT seen any game (or at least I hope =))
Same goes for Arc but at least Arc has tech demos that are less pie in the sky.
car analogy time :
If GM tell me that they're making a flying car I won't trust them
if Ford tell me that they're making a car working with nuclear energy, I can barely trust them but it's less far fetched.
And I don't care about GM or Ford (now if it was Renaud i wouldn't trust them because they just plain suck)
nobody has tried it yet (like I'll believe the market speak :-/, msft advertisement is really not the one I'd trust with anything)
we don't even know what it can and cannot do (again pr speak is nice and all but actions speak louder)
And we sure as hell have NOT seen any game (or at least I hope =))
Same goes for Arc but at least Arc has tech demos that are less pie in the sky.
car analogy time :
If GM tell me that they're making a flying car I won't trust them
if Ford tell me that they're making a car working with nuclear energy, I can barely trust them but it's less far fetched.
And I don't care about GM or Ford (now if it was Renaud i wouldn't trust them because they just plain suck)
Dan Yo said:
I am not sure why you think that. We can still expect Mass Effect 3, Gears of War 3, Fable 3, Forza 4 and Halo 4 in the semi near future. I do not see their key franchises falling victim to Natal. Maybe we will see Rare and Lionhead shift focus in that direction, but nobody was buying Rare games to begin with so that is only a loss to me and the small group of people who appreciated their 360 offerings.
What I see with MS is them expanding their gameplan, not shifting their current resources towards Natal. It is the Scene It's, Lips, Your in the Movies type games and developers who are going to be turning their focus exclusively in the Natal direction, with the bigger franchises potentially using it to add features.
Version 3.0
Member
MightyHedgehog said:
Maybe not, but it's sure #1 in my book. It's the reason the pointer and tilt are so great on the Wii, while the motion controls are such shit. It's really the difference between working and not working/sometimes working/sort of working. The difference between fun and frustration.
Monty Mole
Member
This.Leondexter said:
What I loved about 80s and early 90s games is that if you died, it was YOUR fault. End of.
These days, I rarely get the feeling as much of it is about luck as much as control in today's games.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Well, let's not take my statement to mean something I didn't say. I fully understand what you're saying and agree with what you're saying...I think it's pretty obvious, really. Accuracy...fidelity...in any input is the primary goal. My point was that accurate input doesn't, by itself, mean all that much. Without a broad range of interesting things to do with the input, it doesn't mean anything, not really. Wand-like Wii controls are unfortunately limited to a fairly common set of actions in games we've already come to associate strongly with...pointing, swinging, thrusting (especially with M+), and waggling/shaking. It's obviously not limited to just those, but that seems to be the focus of most games, even after almost four years of software for the platform. Natal has a naturally wider horizon of actions to mirror and digest in a game in trade for its lack of dedicated physical controller use in conjunction with it...of course, there's always the option of incorporating the standard pad with it. Anyway, my point was about possibilities and how easily they can be realized. Clearly, if the accuracy and consistency of input isn't up to snuff on some decent level, it won't matter what the possibilities are for a lot of games.Leondexter said:
MightyHedgehog said:
Pedantic-age here, but, I think this should say 'wii-like wand controls' instead
The wiimote is great for pointing and gives an unambiguous answer for that every time, but for general motion control, isn't actually all that good. The data isn't very reliable and it's difficult to really figure out what's being done with the controller. So the use-cases as you mention tend to fall into a fairly familiar/limited set, beyond pointing. That's if we talk about the wii-mote on its own. Motion+ improves things further in terms of the use-case of more general motion tracking.
The wiimote, the original wiimote, didn't exhaust or exemplify what's possible with a 'wand-like' controller - precisely because of accuracy issues. I think the beauty of an exemplerary implementation of such a controller is if it can give you an accurate, unambiguous read or mapping of what the hand is doing, with fast action triggers via buttons. The wii-mote, in its original incarnation at least, didn't really offer that. Accuracy and temporal stability of results can make a big difference, and big difference to the 'set of actions' that can be facilitated by a controller.
So holding out the wiimote and saying 'look, accuracy ain't all that if the range of accomodated actions isn't so wide' is kind of a contradiction in itself...it's because of its inaccuracy and difficulty of parsing motion unambiguously that devs stuck to a narrower set of actions that were easy to get working well.
gofreak said:Pedantic-age here, but, I think this should say 'wii-like wand controls' instead
The wiimote is great for pointing and gives an unambiguous answer for that every time, but for general motion control, isn't actually all that good. The data isn't very reliable and it's difficult to really figure out what's being done with the controller. So the use-cases as you mention tend to fall into a fairly familiar/limited set, beyond pointing. That's if we talk about the wii-mote on its own. Motion+ improves things further in terms of the use-case of more general motion tracking.
The wiimote, the original wiimote, didn't exhaust or exemplify what's possible with a 'wand-like' controller - precisely because of accuracy issues. I think the beauty of an exemplerary implementation of such a controller is if it can give you an accurate, unambiguous read or mapping of what the hand is doing, with fast action triggers via buttons. The wii-mote, in its original incarnation at least, didn't really offer that. Accuracy and temporal stability of results can make a big difference, and big difference to the 'set of actions' that can be facilitated by a controller.
So holding out the wiimote and saying 'look, accuracy ain't all that if the range of accomodated actions isn't so wide' is kind of a contradiction in itself...it's because of its inaccuracy and difficulty of parsing motion unambiguously that devs stuck to a narrower set of actions that were easy to get working well.
A lot of people focus on the motion control aspect of the Wiimote when I think one of the biggest advantages of the Wiimote is its versatility. You have the pointer controls, motion controls, and what a lot of people seem to overlook is that you can use it sideways. You can't play games like Mario Bros., Smash Bros., or Boy and his Blob with Natal or probably not even Arc but you can with just the Wiimote.
With all the ways you can use the Wiimote is pretty ingenious.
I always wondered one thing about Nintendo. Why didn't Nintendo preemptively attack Microsoft with their own motion camera control device accessory? They sort of did by working with Ubisoft on Your Shape but they couldn't have made something a little more compelling and pushed it hard.
Vizion28 said:
because they didn't feel like they needed too. they were still selling fine enough and probably have the same vision for MS and Natal as most of GAF. in other words, failure. i think i remember hearing that Ninty had even looked into the exact same tech as Natal but passed because of cost issues.
Vizion28 said:
1) yeah, i was telling you that they looked into the same tech to hit home the point that they did look into it.
2) of course no one knows if it's going to be a failure. if you read my posts in natal threads you'll see that i'm always calling for people to wait and see before praising it or writing it off.
Thetallywacker
Banned
Every exercise game made is one more out of my yearly pocket. Seeing how limited the first 8 months on the system last year was has me unexcited.