• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Microsoft Courier: dual-screen touch tablet

Status
Not open for further replies.
As someone heading into grad school in physics, this thing seems ideal for me. It's perfect for note-taking. Sure, I could just take them on paper, but this gives me searchable, shareable, archive-able notes. And yes, typing on a laptop would give me that too, but then I lose the ability to do equations, graphs, sketches, etc easily. Not to mention how much of a godsend it could be for research projects. Reading and annotating papers, keeping track of things to do, jotting down quick ideas/graphs/sketches - it would basically replace my lab manual, except it would be even better because again it's searchable, and I can drag and drop pictures into it. Man, I want this thing yesterday.

So, what does everyone think the price will be? My initial thought was $600-$800, to compete with the iPad, but that's a complete guess. I'd like to hear from someone familiar with the costs of the known components (two 5x7 lcd screens, Tegra 2 processor, etc) who could give a more educated guess on the price.
 
Zozz said:
I pull out more wpm on a keyboard but I prefer writing most of the time, it feels natural and I only type when there is no other alternative. FFS
Click to expand...

Seriously? I fucking hate writing. It cramps my hand up. I can't imagine preferring writing to typing.
 
I might have missed it, but is there any word on being able to send the note-pages you take to a computer or anything? Maybe as a pdf file? It would be great to be able to print the notes you take.

I prefer learning through writing much more than typing.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
I might have missed it, but is there any word on being able to send the note-pages you take to a computer or anything? Maybe as a pdf file? It would be great to be able to print the notes you take.

I prefer learning through writing much more than typing.
Click to expand...

right now they’ve only shown a web page where you can browse all your notes. it looks like they’ll set it up to look like pages in book. no idea how easy it will be to turn them into pdfs or if the web pages will be silverlight based or not.
 
People arguing against writing are mostly just arguing against this device rather than the merits of writing (or so I hope). Plus this is another type of those stupid arguments where for some reason writing and typing cannot both exist at the same time and choice is bad (more streamlined user experience by only having one? ha!).
 
KevinCow said:
Seriously? I fucking hate writing. It cramps my hand up. I can't imagine preferring writing to typing.
Click to expand...

It is pretty common to prefer writing to typing where I work. And I work at a major software company. I don't think it is that unusual.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
I think it's obvious both of them will be. There's a capacitive stylus for the iPad/phone that should work fine. App support is where it gets tricky. And I don't know how accurate it is.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/dads/a31f/
Click to expand...
Capacitive stylus will never let you experience the controls of EMR pen unless:

1. They allow much finer contact area. But this goes against the capacitive nature.

2. They introduce a separate mechanism that give you pressure sensitivity like in EMR pens.

This is where the real magic happens, and this is where Wacom earns it's bread and butter over the other EMR digitizer ODMs. For instance, I have Wacom pens dating back to 1995 that still works great, but I often saw broken Finepoint Innovations pens in new demo units, and it's always the tip assembly. Also, Wacom pen tips give you 256~2048 levels of pressure in less than 0.5mm of tip travel (I don't know the exact number), while some of the others struggle to give you 1024 levels with over 5mm of travel (such as this "P-Active" pen display I saw at CES this year: www.p-active.com.tw).

These two factors will keep Capacitive digitizers from ever catching up to EMR ones in things like writing and drawing where controls are essential. Capacitive was never intended for fine controls and pressure. You can fake pressure sensitivity with software (by comparing the difference in contact area size), but it only nets you around 16 levels of pressure, and you have to throw out positional accuracy due to the method of measuring pressure levels. It's really like comparing finger painting to using a pen.
 
giga said:
Who cares about pen vs keyboard? They both have their uses and MS should implement both for this device. If I'm in econ or math class, I'd rather have the pen. If i'm in comparative politics, I'll use the keyboard.

The biggest issue though that I've seen from stylus based tablets though is this problem (10 min mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ_U1exbv6A#t=10m20s

Is there a proper solution to this? Proper palm rejection on a multitouch capacitive display?
Click to expand...

Of course. Wacom has this technology. You can see it on the Lenovo X200/X201 Tablet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYAeXf9iQk#t=2m24s
 
Wow. This is what I was wanting from the iPad somewhat....something to replace the typical pen and pad. Definitely a different market than the iPhone/iPad and can stand on its own if it works as well as the video. Dammit why is M$ always so fucking behind. Will probably give into the iPad long before this becomes a reality
 
excuse my crude mockup, but if you wanted to type, couldn't you just do this?

290v2gw.jpg


the bottom part beneath the spacebar could be used for bookmarks, shortcuts, etc.?
 
sure, but then couldn't you just have a thin, real keyboard in that section? Why does it need to have two screens other than one-upmanship? are there any practical examples in the videos that show a real need for two screens?
 
Wow, the interface videos look swell as fuck. I hope Microsoft will actually deliver the goods, if this works as good as in the videos this is a definitive buy.
 
mrklaw said:
sure, but then couldn't you just have a thin, real keyboard in that section? Why does it need to have two screens other than one-upmanship? are there any practical examples in the videos that show a real need for two screens?
Click to expand...

I love the 2 screen idea.

Practical use that I would have: PDF e-book of a textbook on the left, notes on the right. Perfect for school.
 
mrklaw said:
sure, but then couldn't you just have a thin, real keyboard in that section? Why does it need to have two screens other than one-upmanship? are there any practical examples in the videos that show a real need for two screens?
Click to expand...

I imagine this thing folds like a book/laptop. Dual screen setup gives you the protection of the clamshell, while providing more screen real estate since it eliminates the keyboard. Plus, the vids shown shows the ideas of flipping pages like notebook, holding info on one page while writing on another, etc. I dont think its necessary, but the 2 page format is familiar and is comfortable, like any book/notebook out there

The real question to me is how well it will pick up handwriting. That will make or break this keyboardless design. If I need to write a url, but cannot do it because it cant tell the difference between an 'a' and an 'o' then we're in trouble. I imagine it will allow for an onscreen keyboard on one screen if desired, with optional external physicial keyboards. But it would be truly amazing if it could read writing well enough to convert what I had written into typed text at any time. Thats a next gen notebook right there. Imagine handwriting a bunch of notes, highlighting some of it, tap convert, and that shit turns into typed text ready for email, twitter, whatever.

As people have mentioned, what is interesting here is not whether or not you can write as fast as typing. I pull out the pen and pad all the time for things that just doesnt come natural on a screen: Drawing diagrams, equations, whatever. Also, since my typing sucks...I have to actually think when typing notes which causes me to often lose track of what I am hearing as I type. Handwriting, while slower, is also second nature and can be done with minimal thought. It could also be merged with drawing, arrows, underlines, circling shit....basic shit taken for granted that you just dont ever do on an iphone. Because you cant.

I think this could be HUGE if done right. And since it will be on the Windows Mobile Base, you can bet it will be app ready when it ever comes out. I'm still a little amazed that there was more info on this. I expected it to be vapor to distract iPad lovers
 
Future said:
I imagine this thing folds like a book/laptop. Dual screen setup gives you the protection of the clamshell, while providing more screen real estate since it eliminates the keyboard. Plus, the vids shown shows the ideas of flipping pages like notebook, holding info on one page while writing on another, etc. I dont think its necessary, but the 2 page format is familiar and is comfortable, like any book/notebook out there

The real question to me is how well it will pick up handwriting. That will make or break this keyboardless design. If I need to write a url, but cannot do it because it cant tell the difference between an 'a' and an 'o' then we're in trouble. I imagine it will allow for an onscreen keyboard on one screen if desired, with optional external physicial keyboards. But it would be truly amazing if it could read writing well enough to convert what I had written into typed text at any time. Thats a next gen notebook right there. Imagine handwriting a bunch of notes, highlighting some of it, tap convert, and that shit turns into typed text ready for email, twitter, whatever.

As people have mentioned, what is interesting here is not whether or not you can write as fast as typing. I pull out the pen and pad all the time for things that just doesnt come natural on a screen: Drawing diagrams, equations, whatever. Also, since my typing sucks...I have to actually think when typing notes which causes me to often lose track of what I am hearing as I type. Handwriting, while slower, is also second nature and can be done with minimal thought. I think this could be HUGE if done right
Click to expand...


This shouldn't be a problem if they can implement the Windows Vista/7 handwriting recognition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgzQizAkFg
 
quite like the look of this. sure i can touchtype 75wpm blindfold with burning candles up my nose but i like writing by hand, especially creative writing. i also like to scribble in the margins, make side comments, draw diagrams etc.

love the clamshell design, appeals to me much more than the ipad. if/when this comes, put me down for it. i might just be back at uni doing a masters by then.
 
why dont microsoft actually reveal this properly because i still have doubts some of this stuff is real..

its funny they just do a quick reminder that this exists when the ipad is just about to be released.

this gadget (if its real) could give the ipad some serious competition, yet seems to me like they really cant be bothered to even get behind it.
 
justjohn said:
why dont microsoft actually reveal this properly because i still have doubts some of this stuff is real..

its funny they just do a quick reminder that this exists when the ipad is just about to be released.

this gadget (if its real) could give the ipad some serious competition, yet seems to me like they really cant be bothered to even get behind it.
Click to expand...
That is because it's not real, it is still just a concept.
 
rezuth said:
That is because it's not real, it is still just a concept.
Click to expand...
Yes of course; silly me. this is microsoft we're talking about.

This is probably the difference between apple and microsoft. if this stuff was made by apple we'll definitely be buying it in a months time with a price and everything.

but with microsoft-concepts, pipe fucking dreams and no where near the the concept when finally released.
 
justjohn said:
Yes of course; silly me. this is microsoft we're talking about.

This is probably the difference between apple and microsoft. if this stuff was made by apple we'll definitely be buying it in a months time with a price and everything.

but with microsoft-concepts, pipe fucking dreams and no where near the the concept when finally released.
Click to expand...
If it was Apple it would also be 10x overpriced, "simple/ugly" UI, cheaper compants used as well as less powerful chips etc.

Basiclly its better to wait for the year X.
 
trinest said:
If it was Apple it would also be 10x overpriced, "simple/ugly" UI, cheaper compants used as well as less powerful chips etc.

Basiclly its better to wait for the year X.
Click to expand...
Overpriced or not, we'll still have it in our hands. Can't say the same for this courier.

Looking at this device, it just looks too good to be true.
 
justjohn said:
Yes of course; silly me. this is microsoft we're talking about.

This is probably the difference between apple and microsoft. if this stuff was made by apple we'll definitely be buying it in a months time with a price and everything.

but with microsoft-concepts, pipe fucking dreams and no where near the the concept when finally released.
Click to expand...

Uh, the concepts are not official. These are leaks. Internal use only yadda yadda yadda. Microsoft has nothing to reveal because this isn't a product you can buy in a month. Is it so hard to understand? What should they do?

"Hey guys, we're officially announcing the Microsoft Courier. It's still a concept and it's not ready for production but we might release it by the end of 2010. Or 2011? Who knows? We sure don't! Until then, have fun with the pictures and videos. Oh, btw the look and size of the Courier could change over time. The name too."
 
brotkasten said:
Of course. Wacom has this technology. You can see it on the Lenovo X200/X201 Tablet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYAeXf9iQk#t=2m24s
Click to expand...
I can't view the video right now since I'm in the library (supposed to be studying :p) but has Lenovo really incorporated an EMR digitizer in that x201? Like a Cintiq? Might explain why it's a $275 add-on.

Edit: watched the video. It doesn't show him using it with his palm resting on it? Hell, that looks like a resistive screen.
 
mrklaw said:
But I didn't notice any handwriting recognition in the demo videos. Writing and clipping yes, but nothing converting to text. That'd be essential to it being practical, as you'd need to search through any of your notes.
Click to expand...
internally OneNote scans your handwriting like in this video and you can search through all of it like it would have been written with keyboard. I think they do the exact same thing with the courier then.

edit:

@giga: My thinkpad x61t has Wacom tech as well. 255 pressure points sensitve stylus. No multitouch though. It's real great.
 
Maybe Microsoft's waiting until after the iPad comes out (or closer to its release) before revealing this, if they do at all?

Who knows, but hopefully this product is real.


Also - for people doubting the ability for quality handwriting recognition, I highly suggest you check this out:

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/04/23/ink-input-and-tablet.aspx

Windows 7 already has some absolutely incredible handwriting recognition technology in it. It wouldn't have to be brand new tech to work with Courier.
 
If this thing comes out in October or something, we're still 7 months away from launch. How much did we know about the iPad in September? Nothing, just rumors - not even a video. Engadget's "extremely trusted" source seem to suggest that this is very much a real product, with a planned launch date. No reason to treat this as any more pie in the sky than the iPad was.
 
Bananakin said:
If this thing comes out in October or something, we're still 7 months away from launch. How much did we know about the iPad in September? Nothing, just rumors - not even a video. Engadget's "extremely trusted" source seem to suggest that this is very much a real product, with a planned launch date. No reason to treat this as any more pie in the sky than the iPad was.
Click to expand...
Eh, Apple rarely reveals new products unless they are mostly finalized and ready to ship in the immediate quarter. (sans operating systems)
 
Having watched the vids, color me impressed. I'd definitely buy one if the price is right.

They better have a lefty mode though :lol
 
Bananakin said:
If this thing comes out in October or something, we're still 7 months away from launch. How much did we know about the iPad in September? Nothing, just rumors - not even a video. Engadget's "extremely trusted" source seem to suggest that this is very much a real product, with a planned launch date. No reason to treat this as any more pie in the sky than the iPad was.
Click to expand...
We have had consistent information about the iPad for years. Besides, when was the last time Microsoft launched something without it leaking before?

brotkasten said:
Uh, the concepts are not official. These are leaks. Internal use only yadda yadda yadda. Microsoft has nothing to reveal because this isn't a product you can buy in a month. Is it so hard to understand? What should they do?

"Hey guys, we're officially announcing the Microsoft Courier. It's still a concept and it's not ready for production but we might release it by the end of 2010. Or 2011? Who knows? We sure don't! Until then, have fun with the pictures and videos. Oh, btw the look and size of the Courier could change over time. The name too."
Click to expand...
I think that they need to be a lot more strict on these kinds of stuff. It is not good for a company to have constant leaks about products.
 
Does it support Flash?

and for those of you who prefer typing.. that is great and all, but what happens when you need to write an equation or a logical proof? I know when I was in college about half of my notes were some sort of diagram with explanations in the margin.

Work less so, but I find it much more natural to take hand written notes in a meeting.
 
brotkasten said:
Uh, the concepts are not official. These are leaks. Internal use only yadda yadda yadda. Microsoft has nothing to reveal because this isn't a product you can buy in a month. Is it so hard to understand? What should they do?

"Hey guys, we're officially announcing the Microsoft Courier. It's still a concept and it's not ready for production but we might release it by the end of 2010. Or 2011? Who knows? We sure don't! Until then, have fun with the pictures and videos. Oh, btw the look and size of the Courier could change over time. The name too."
Click to expand...

yeah, I have no doubt in my mind that these are controlled leaks. the timing of the new videos as the iPad availability date announcement came out; the quality of the images and video; the lack of any calls from MS to take down the images for both sets of leaks. they all point to sanctioned leaks form MS.

these are unofficial, official leaks to generate buzz. I’m certain of it.
 
it would have been a better "official leak" if they showed off some hardware. as people have said, interface only videos like this is nothing more than a glorified version of the actual interface.
 
StoOgE said:
and for those of you who prefer typing.. that is great and all, but what happens when you need to write an equation or a logical proof? I know when I was in college about half of my notes were some sort of diagram with explanations in the margin.
Click to expand...

And that's why a hybrid tablet is really the best all-around device. Obviously though, this isn't meant as a be-all-end-all.

Work less so, but I find it much more natural to take hand written notes in a meeting.
Click to expand...

Yep. I too take a fair amount of notes at work, with math and diagrams being involved much of the time. That would make this a pretty nice asset if the workflow measures up. I'm a pretty visual thinker, and also love to futz around drawing, etc. If this actually has decent drawing capabilities, I could see myself using this a decent amount for work and play.
 
LCfiner said:
yeah, I have no doubt in my mind that these are controlled leaks. the timing of the new videos as the iPad availability date announcement came out; the quality of the images and video; the lack of any calls from MS to take down the images for both sets of leaks. they all point to sanctioned leaks form MS.

these are unofficial, official leaks(?) to generate buzz. I’m certain of it.
Click to expand...

No doubt about that, but it doesn't change anything.

About that "official" thing, yeah. I wouldn't say that every big leak is approved by higher execs at Microsoft. If Neowin is somewhat trustworthy then take a look at this interview about the leak of the Zune HD.

RR: Why did you decide to talk about the Zune HD?
TK: Because I love Zune...It's just an all around better product then the iPod & I wanted it do better in the marketplace.

RR: Was it approved by execs higher up, or did you just go ahead without Microsoft approval?
TK: I went ahead without any approval from any of the higher ups.
Click to expand...
http://www.neowin.net/news/interview-with-the-zune-source

smh. I still can't believe it.

So yeah,
rezuth said:
I think that they need to be a lot more strict on these kinds of stuff. It is not good for a company to have constant leaks about products.
Click to expand...
I totally agree.


But the Courier is coming and there is no doubt about that. It's not that Steve Ballmer confirmed it, but on the second episode of The Engadget Show, Ballmer showed off his skills from the vague training school. :lol

Joshua Topolsky: So you think that there could be this Courier device something like in the future?

Steve Ballmer: The way I hear about the video it's cool looking stuff. Should stuff like that exist? Yeah, I think stuff like that looks like it should exist. And I hope somebody does stuff like that.
Click to expand...
bhaux0cwzkexxidyf.jpg


http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/the-engadget-show-002-steve-ballmer-droid-nook-and-new-mac/
At 32m29s
 
mrklaw said:
But I didn't notice any handwriting recognition in the demo videos. Writing and clipping yes, but nothing converting to text. That'd be essential to it being practical, as you'd need to search through any of your notes.
Click to expand...
What the hell are you talking about? It converted the the writing into text right there in the TIP!
 
Bananakin said:
I would assume so. Doesn't the Tegra 2 support Flash acceleration or something?
Click to expand...
Even Cortex A8 does Flash, given the OS. Tegra 2 (based on dual core Cortex A9) won't have much problem with Flash.
 
If the product in hand matches the demonstrated speed, ease of use, animation, etc. in those videos, this will be a massive seller.

Hey Microsoft, please realize that this is the most important aspect of attempting to design a consumer device.

At this point I'm kind of expecting that the final product will be about half as cool as demoed there. But who can be sure? I'll cross my fingers!
 
Hawkian said:
If the product in hand matches the demonstrated speed, ease of use, animation, etc. in those videos, this will be a massive seller.

Hey Microsoft, please realize that this is the most important aspect of attempting to design a consumer device.

At this point I'm kind of expecting that the final product will be about half as cool as demoed there. But who can be sure? I'll cross my fingers!
Click to expand...
That is probably what impressed me most. I am not knowledgeable enough about the subject to judge whether what we saw in those videos posted above is realistic. Anybody?
 
Well, there are essentially two separate questions implied by the word "realistic" there.

1. Is it currently possible to create a device that functions identically to what is demonstrated in the videos? Yes, almost certainly. Some of the apps on Microsoft Surface have already demonstrated a similarly impressive degree of touch control and UI efficiency. I'd say it's doable this year- if not with every feature being displayed in the videos, at least the basic UI, speed and all.

2. Is it likely that the "Courier" device will make it to market looking and operating just like that? Tough call. I unfortunately knowing MS's track record would say it's on the loser's end of a 50-50 shot. There are a few aspects; I know you said that you wouldn't care about price to have that exact device, but the dollar is powerful, and stunting the performance of something to allow its release at a lower price point is not unprecedented. There's also the important point that, in that video, you're seeing a digital representation of what touching it should be like- it can't give you any sense of what the screen actually feels like or how sensitive it is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Former Microsoft VP says Microsoft missed the AI wave like the internet and mobile
News 
6
474
mitch1971 replied
Should I get Android tablet vs iPad?
14
1K
Meicyn replied
Microsoft Edge stores your passwords in plaintext
News 
48
1K
winjer replied
Microsoft screws up security encryption again, now it's Bitlocker
News 
35
761
Bojji replied
Microsoft blocked the word Miscroslop on their Discord server
Social 
43
1K
winjer replied
Top Bottom