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[Stumpokapow]

So my Live account will show I'm a cheater if I decide to download game saves because I don't have the time to sit around for seven thousand billion hours unlocking content? I'm not 5 anymore, I'm in my late twenties, FUCK OFF

No, your Live account will show you're a cheater if you decide to download game saves and then go online with the benefits you reap from them. Keep your profile offline if you want to cheat.

 

[Evander]

Of all the things that you can cheat on in life, cheating on a freaking gamerscore has got to be the lamest. What's the point?

Then again, I have to strive to begin to understand the point of the score to begin with so my opinion is coloured.

You know, I can even understand competing with your buddies to see who can get the highest gamerscore, but just out-and-out competing against the world at large seems absolutely ludicrous to me.

Personally I actually really like the Gamerscore. I use it for myself as a gauge of how I've been doing, and how much I've been getting out of my games. I love some of the creative achievements out there, like the Lego Star Wars ones, like the one for team-killing Jar Jar a bunch of times, or "Let the Wookie Win" for ripping off a certain number of arms. Also, the "TIME PARADOX" ones, like using Vader to kill Anakin.

 

[Fatbot]

Microsoft brings the pain.

I see this as a life lesson that no matter how meaningless something like Gamerscore is, when you take it away people get upset.

I have a measly 23k but i would be upset it was suddenly wiped out.

 

[Evander]

wait, your saying that these people who have clearly broken the TOS shouldn't be punished?

I'm saying the ToS should apply to the service, not the product.

I'm all for punishment within the proper bounds for it.

If MSoft wants to wipe the achievement data off of their servers, I disagree with the decision, because it encourages the whole dick-waving contest, but they are fully within rights to do it. Them wiping the information off of user's property, though, is unacceptable to me.

MSoft has no right to change my data on my 360. The data belongs to me, the service belongs to them.



Even with the whole "just don't log on" argument, you're ignoring the DRM issue. If some one is on their second system, they HAVE to log on in order to play the XBLA games that they've bought.

 

[Evander]

I suppose it could also be possible to use something like an Action Replay and grant yourself enough advantages (infinite lives/ammo...) to unlock some extremely hard Achievements.

There's no way that this should be considered a punishable offense.



You know, I once accidentallyunlocked a bunch of acheivements in GHIII, because I was just renting it, and wanted to be able to playwith the whole thing, rather thanbeing stuck unlocking it all, so I used the codes to unlock all songs, all guitars, all characters, and all outfits. Well, I found that when I went into the stores after that, I suddenly recieved the achievements for unlocking everything. I know that this ISN'T the type of thing that they're talking about punishing, but I don't even like hearing it COMPARED to cheating. Getting my achievements taken away because of cheat codes built in to games (or cheat codes from something like an Action Replay) is absolute Bullshit.

 

[CorwinB]

If you don't go online, your system has more correct information than the servers do.

When you go back online, your system submits the offline modifications (achievements gained, local profiles changes...) to the central server for approval and updating. While I suspect the approval process is mostly automatic in the case of Xbox Live, the final arbiter of what is and what is not correct is the central server. That's a pretty common case of offline editing of centralized content.

If they want to delete those achievements from the servers, and have them not reflected to other players, like I've said, that's perfectly fine, but deleting them from your own records (even if it's just through syncing with the servers) is BS.

And my profile is indeed mine. I payed for it, after all. My Live access is subject to their decisions, and I recognize that, as it is part of a service, but my profile is used for more than just Live access, so them claiming control over all of it just because I use it online makes me uneasy. I've already been considering cancelling my gold subscription when it comes time to renew it, and these sorts of moves on their part just push me in that direction.

Those are not "your own" records that you paid for. Check the Xbox Online Policy, it grants MS the right to edit your profile under a variety of cases, including, for example, offensive profiles. What you paid for is the access (without any warranty) to an online service, under MS terms. Your profile is just one of the facilities that MS offers as part of the service, and as such is different of your offline profiles that are stored on your console.

 

[sneaky77]

There's no way that this should be considered a punishable offense.



You know, I once accidentallyunlocked a bunch of acheivements in GHIII, because I was just renting it, and wanted to be able to playwith the whole thing, rather thanbeing stuck unlocking it all, so I used the codes to unlock all songs, all guitars, all characters, and all outfits. Well, I found that when I went into the stores after that, I suddenly recieved the achievements for unlocking everything. I know that this ISN'T the type of thing that they're talking about punishing, but I don't even like hearing it COMPARED to cheating. Getting my achievements taken away because of cheat codes built in to games (or cheat codes from something like an Action Replay) is absolute Bullshit.

And since they are not doing that... how does that even apply?

 

[Fantasmo]

The problem I have with this is unlockables. People like me have cheated over the years to get unlockables. People like me enjoy achievements, but wouldn't cheat to get achievements. Unlockables however, extend the life of a game, and sometimes even make a game many many times better. Although I don't have one yet, I almost always end up getting an Action Replay or something similar for each system I own.

I beat Dead Rising. Game was hard as nails but a lot of fun. I want the costumes and unlockables available to me.

Here's an offender from Nintendo: Smash Bros Brawl has tons of characters, music, and stages locked away. They used an encrypted save so I can't even download anything. Great.

I'm not in grade school, middle school, high school or college. I try to maintain a social life, I have a girlfriend, I'm continuing my studies, I literally do not have the time to unlock everything. I used to love RPGs and yet these days I just don't have the time for them. I just want to relax, pick up and play these days.

No company should be telling me how to play my game if I'm not screwing anyone over. My point is, I should be able to unlock whatever content I want without repercussion. Fuck MS's TOS and fuck developers who tie achievements to unlocked content. Years ago I had plenty of time to unlock things in games. These days it takes forever to unlock stuff because games are just way too long.

You want to reward me for a job well done? That's what achievements (or trophies in SSBB's case) are for. Don't tie them to unlockables.

And anyway, what do high gamerscores MEAN anyway in the grand scheme of things? Gamefly every sports game on 360 and you can probably get 100,000 points in a weekend. It's those really hard ones in specific games that actually show off some talent.

I don't care who I should be pointing a finger at... developers, microsoft, or the cheaters trying to inflate their gamerscore, but I do know one thing, they're all assholes and this policy would make me look bad.

 

[JumpJeff84]

I'd honestly like to hear from people who actively care about their gamerscores....

I don't expect any cheaters to pipe up, but even the people who are obsessed with getting 'points' from as many games as possible. The stock answer of 'competition' only goes so far, I mean, I can understand if you're battling to see who can obtain more achievements from a game that you and your friends actually play.

But what possesses people to seek out shit like Avatar and Jumper, solely for the purpose of obtaining meaningless points? What are you competing with there? Poeple who didn't play Avatar or Jumper to obtain meaningless points?

My gamerscore is just over 7000 points, and I will admit that if I'm playing a game, sometimes its fun to check out the list of achievements available and actively try to obtain one or two for a sort of metagame thing...but playing games that are clearly shit just for points? What drives people to do that? I find there aren't enough hours in a day to play all the GOOD games that I actually WANT to play....

Seriously, how goes a useless number take precedence over game quality? Not trying to be a jerk, I just legitimately would like to hear some of the self-professed 'points whores' out there offer some insight...

 

[levious]

I'm not in grade school, middle school, high school or college. I try to maintain a social life, I have a girlfriend, I'm continuing my studies, I literally do not have the time to unlock everything. I used to love RPGs and yet these days I just don't have the time for them. I just want to relax, pick up and play these days.

so it takes you longer, big deal. Most of us here are adults who don't have as much gaming time as we used to.

Did you get "caught cheating?" I didn't think simply downloading saves to unlock content affected gamerscores anymore after one of the dashboard updates.

edit: I find it funny that the featured gamer on xbox.com is cow moolester.

 

[Evander]

When you go back online, your system submits the offline modifications (achievements gained, local profiles changes...) to the central server for approval and updating. While I suspect the approval process is mostly automatic in the case of Xbox Live, the final arbiter of what is and what is not correct is the central server. That's a pretty common case of offline editing of centralized content.




Those are not "your own" records that you paid for. Check the Xbox Online Policy, it grants MS the right to edit your profile under a variety of cases, including, for example, offensive profiles. What you paid for is the access (without any warranty) to an online service, under MS terms. Your profile is just one of the facilities that MS offers as part of the service, and as such is different of your offline profiles that are stored on your console.

Just because it's in their termsof service doesn't mean that its right.

I would also argue thatit is an abuse of the terms of the contract. It's one thing entirely to edit out an offensive motto; mottos are free, and you can always enter another one. It's another thing entirely to remove a feature of a game that you paid for, and then bar you from recooperating the lost data.

Especially when they could simply remove the achievements from being reflected online, and get the same effect.

They are overstepping their bounds in the way in which they are punishing folks. If they want me to pay for their products, they have no right to tell me how I can and cannot use them. It's one thing to dictate the terms of their service, but dictating usage of personal property just isn't right.

 

[dammitmattt]

You want to reward me for a job well done? That's what achievements (or trophies in SSBB's case) are for. Don't tie them to unlockables.

Well don't support games that have unlockables. Most games these days have unlockables, and most games don't have in-game cheats to access these unlockables. That's just how it is.

And anyway, what do high gamerscores MEAN anyway in the grand scheme of things? Gamefly every sports game on 360 and you can probably get 100,000 points in a weekend.

Good luck with that! There are only a few sports games with stupid easy achievements. Most of them take work. You'd have more luck renting the complete collection of animated movie tie-in games.

 

[Evander]

And since they are not doing that... how does that even apply?

Because allowing this sets up precedent.

 

[Evander]

so it takes you longer, big deal. Most of us here are adults who don't have as much gaming time as we used to.

Yes, and for some of us it changes the way that we budget our time.

When I was little, I never minded the factthatevery time I picked up a controller to play Super Mario Bros. I had to start back at the begining. The game, for me, was just in seeing how far I could getin one sitting. I never cared about completion back then, and could easily play the same parts of a game over and over.

I don't have that kind of time anymore. These days I tend to play all of my games on their easiest difficulty level, to make them go by quicker, and I rarely get around to replaying a game. I don't download gamesaves, personally, but I could definitely see a use for it, in say,being able to skip some annoyingly slow tourtorial level in a game when I just want to jump into the action.

 

[Fantasmo]

so it takes you longer, big deal.

Actually, it's a fucking huge deal. If I want to invite a group of people over to play a multiplayer game, I shouldn't be called a cheater for unlocking songs, characters, costumes, tracks, car, whatever. Plus, it puts them at a disadvantage if I learn the game before they get a chance to even play. If I've become really good at a game by wasting all this time, then I've got nobody to play with anymore because I'll dominate them. Furthermore, people don't like to horribly lose, if I'm spending all this time, getting better at the game, to unlock stuff people might want to play or see, I'm already too good and they can't compete, where's the incentive for these people to become gamers?

Did you get "caught cheating?" I didn't think simply downloading saves to unlock content affected gamerscores anymore after one of the dashboard updates.

No, as I said above I don't have any ability to do so with 360 but I've done it countless times over the years for Xbox, PS2, GC, and older systems. The first paragraph shows why I'm absolutely infuriated at Microsoft's stance on this. It's bad enough that companies put less and less 'unlocking' cheat codes in their games these days.

I've wasted absurd amounts of time unlocking things and wasted this whole past weekend beating the subspace emmissary in brawl just so I could have more content for my family and friends to play with on easter sunday. This used to just be an issue I had with developers, but now it's turning into an issue with hardware maker.

 

[dammitmattt]

Actually, it's a fucking huge deal. If I want to invite a group of people over to play a multiplayer game, I shouldn't be called a cheater for unlocking songs, characters, costumes, tracks, car, whatever. Plus, it puts them at a disadvantage if I learn the game before they get a chance to even play. If I've become really good at a game by wasting all this time, then I've got nobody to play with anymore because I'll dominate them. Furthermore, people don't like to horribly lose, if I'm spending all this time, getting better at the game, to unlock stuff people might want to play or see, I'm already too good and they can't compete, where's the incentive for these people to become gamers?

No, as I said above I don't have any ability to do so with 360 but I've done it countless times over the years for Xbox, PS2, GC, and older systems. The first paragraph shows why I'm absolutely infuriated at Microsoft's stance on this. It's bad enough that companies put less and less 'unlocking' cheat codes in their games these days.

You don't get it at all. This is primarily aimed at people who trade accounts with other people, download game saves, or find other system exploits SOLELY for the purpose of unlocking achievements to boost gamerscore.

It's not aimed at you.

 

[levious]

No, as I said above I don't have any ability to do so with 360 but I've done it countless times over the years for Xbox, PS2, GC, and older systems. The first paragraph shows why I'm absolutely infuriated at Microsoft's stance on this. It's bad enough that companies put less and less 'unlocking' cheat codes in their games these days.

I didn't think downloading gamesaves alone allowed you to fudge gamerscore anymore though, I'm not sure.

 

[oldergamer]

This is nothing but good imo. Cheaters deserve what they get.

 

[Evander]

I didn't think downloading gamesaves alone allowed you to fudge gamerscore anymore though, I'm not sure.

I would think it would depend on the game, and how it kept track for the achievement.

 

[Nikashi]

They are not going to call people cheaters for using codes actually programmed into the game, if anything, they just didn't program the achievement correctly.

The only precident this sets is that MS is going to enforce their ToS from time to time.

 

[Evander]

The only precident this sets is that MS is going to enforce their ToS from time to time.

It represents that their interpretation of the ToS is more far-reaching than is standard.

They are acting BEYOND the service, and removing data from your personal system.

 

[CorwinB]

Just because it's in their termsof service doesn't mean that its right.

If you don't agree with the content of the ToS, then don't suscribe to the service.

I would also argue thatit is an abuse of the terms of the contract. It's one thing entirely to edit out an offensive motto; mottos are free, and you can always enter another one. It's another thing entirely to remove a feature of a game that you paid for, and then bar you from recooperating the lost data.

You can certainly regain the lost data. You just can't do it on the same GamerTag. Any cheater caught can still create a local profile (or even a new XBL profile) and regain its achievements.

Especially when they could simply remove the achievements from being reflected online, and get the same effect.

Once again, the server is the final arbiter of the validity of the data. What is stored on your local console is a replication of the server data.

They are overstepping their bounds in the way in which they are punishing folks. If they want me to pay for their products, they have no right to tell me how I can and cannot use them.

Yes they can. You are perfectly entitled to legally challenge the validity of the Xbox ToC, though.

It's one thing to dictate the terms of their service, but dictating usage of personal property just isn't right.

Well, then it's a good thing they are not doing it, then. They are making changes to your profile, as is their right by the ToC to which you agreed when suscribing to the service. Those server-side changes are then replicated to your console, just like they would be if you edited your profile from a computer.