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[GulAtiCa]

This is really sad. Hope the devs get paid. I'm curious though, what's Sony and Nintendo policy on payments?

No idea on Sony. But Nintendo is quarterly. Payments get sent out essentially 25 days after each quarter. Been on time for me so far and other devs, no issues as far as I know of.

 

[AlphaDump]

We haven't gotten paid either. Unfortunately, this is nothing new for Microsoft - it feel like half the time they're late with XBLIG payments.

the resources are there, so it is hard to believe this is done out of spite. this is pocket change to them.

In the past, did their payments usually walk a fine line, but from a contract standpoint were they technically on time? Is this the first instance of an actual late payment?

 

[BlastProcessing]

Well this doesn't make me super enthused to put any games out on Xbox.

It doesn't feel malicious, it just looks like they don't really care.

 

[hawk2025]

Not wrong.

Missing entirely.

Missing entirely?

As in, they reported that your sales were "zero" when they actually happened?


I'm amazed at the number of people excusing incompetence just because it doesn't come from malice. Regardless of the precise reason why, delayed payments happening multiple times is a sign of something going very, very wrong with how much attention is being paid to the service.

 

[GRaider81]

Disgusting that a company the scale of MS treats smaller business like this.

As a small business owner stuff like this can be crippling. Its also the case ive found that the smaller the company I deal with the quicker they are to pay.

 

[ElTorro]

Weird. One would expect that paying bills is the least of things Microsoft would have a problem with. Maybe their software system for tracking sales and managing the payment process is just crap? Insufficient implementation of such business process in the companies IT is usually the root of such problems.

 

[JaggedSac]

for real? I don't honestly even know how to respond to this because I have no clue what that has to do with my point.

I'm saying who the heck relies on XBLIG for their living. There are much much much better platforms out there that offer a more reliable stream of money for games. Im also not saying this is acceptable from MS. It is shitty in any sense.

 

[Conezays]

Glad this issue is being brought to light. Not paying devs is total bs.

 

[Ramza]

This is completely seperate from the indie games on Xbox One. This is the XBLIG section on 360 which is seperate from Indie games on Xbox Store, etc.

Not making excuses because I think it's messed up these smaller devs haven't got paid, but there is a difference.

Doesn't matter. As far as the news is concerned, Microsoft is Microsoft. What happens on one could easily happen on another.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Weird. One would expect that paying bills is the least of things Microsoft would have a problem with. Maybe their software system for tracking sales and managing the payment process is just crap?

Based on posts in this thread. Yes. That's exactly what it looks like at least in XBLIG's case.

 

[JaggedSac]

Same shit happened with indies on the 360 i'm sure of it.

This should not be happening.

This is only regarding the 360. XBLIG does not exist on Bone.

 

[HyperOne]

Yikes. Microsoft, why must you do this? I can't imagine what you owe XBLIG devs even makes a dent in your overall profit margin. There is no reasonable answer as to why they are not paid on time CONSISTENTLY.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I'm saying who the heck relies on XBLIG for their living. There are much much much better platforms out there that offer a more reliable stream of money for games. Im also not saying this is acceptable from MS. It is shitty in any sense.

Pretty sure most devs here have games in other platforms. But, you know, they want and have the right to be paid in time. Money is money.

 

[TalonJH]

Posters?

I think he's talking about the digital posters...which is pretty silly. The idea of a digital poster. Not sure about the "bait and switch" he's talking about.

 

[Welfare]

Wow.

 

[SerTapTap]

Yeah well, google killed my app's google ads account because I clicked the ad once to make sure my app wouldn't crash.

Eesh really? I'm always terrified when I see ads on my own channel on youtube, I always skip. I wish I could adblock only my own channel on youtube. That seems unreasonably overzealous though.

 

[viveks86]

This is completely seperate from the indie games on Xbox One. This is the XBLIG section on 360 which is seperate from Indie games on Xbox Store, etc.

Not making excuses because I think it's messed up these smaller devs haven't got paid, but there is a difference.

It's a distinction without a difference though. Screwing up developer relations on any channel has repercussions on others.

 

[BobTheFork]

don't worry like their super rad ID@Xbox parity clause, I'm sure Phil Spencer will make extremely generous 'exceptions' for payment release based on how big or significant your game is!

What's are the biggest selling indie games? I would love to hear from those developers about their experience with payment.

Edit: So this is one 360 and not Xbone? Maybe they are prioritizing payment for the new console?

there is nothing unusual about net 45 payment terms in b2b transactions

That's kind of a shame.

 

[slider]

Geeze, hoping that the cash flow issue doesn't impact small devs catastrophically.

 

[Rembrandt]

They never "let us know". We had to let them know. By complaining on the developer forums over and over and trying to contact people up the chain.

Shit, that's inexcusable.

 

[watership]

Are these the Quarterly transfer payments for game sales? And did Microsoft communicate to Devs why they are late? It seems that if Devs were truly in the dark about the delay, they wouldn't wait until Dec to complain.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. It's ridiculous how XBLIG has gone from a great, empowering service to... Well, I don't even know how to call this.

By the way, on a somewhat related note, I couldn't help but notice how people have stopped inquiring about Microsoft's plans to completely open up Xbox One to indie development. At least I haven't heard anything about that for a couple of months.

 

[Blizzard]

Eesh really? I'm always terrified when I see ads on my own channel on youtube, I always skip. I wish I could adblock only my own channel on youtube. That seems unreasonably overzealous though.

I just googled (haha) a bit and I see reports of people accidentally clicking their own ads 2-3 times, but nothing bad seeming to happen necessarily. Apparently a lot of people report it to Google when they accidentally click ads as well.

So unless the system has changed in the last few years so that even 1 click is instant death, or unless there's some other factor at play, I don't know what would have happened.

 

[JaggedSac]

I find this statement to be incredibly dumb.

Poor form from Microsoft. They did some great things to push indies to the forefront, but sometimes it seems like they just don't care.

Oh wow.





Are you serious?

It's money. It's money that belongs to these people. They should plan around it however they see fit within the confines of the contract they agreed to.

I never said MS is not at fault and that this is not incredibly shitty. I'm saying if my ability to pay bills hinges on XBLIG payments, I should probably find a more reliable source of indie game income. Such as Steam.

Not wrong.

Missing entirely.

So the sales data that they pay devs based on were fucked and they are trying to fix them or create them out of thin air basically?

 

[xxracerxx]

Are these the Quarterly transfer payments for game sales? And did Microsoft communicate to Devs why they are late? It seems that if Devs were truly in the dark about the delay, they wouldn't wait until Dec to complain.

You could read the thread and find out all the answers to your questions.

 

[Tamanon]

I don't understand how numbers can even be wrong or missing. Indie games are the easiest to calculate since you can only get them through the store. Microsoft should easily be able to track exactly how many copies were sold at each price and pay out accordingly. We're not dealing with retail environments where you have to start thinking about ship versus sold.

Even if there were an error to occur, there's no excuse for it happening multiple times or taking this long to fix.

"Oh, your payment's wrong? Let me check the numbers and verify" That's it.

 

[Shaunboy97]

I did some freelance art for Disney a while back and it took me 3 to 4 months to get paid... Sometimes the larger companies are ass backwards when it comes to payouts (and I'm just one dude)

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I never said MS is not at fault and that this is not incredibly shitty. I'm saying if my ability to pay bills hinges on XBLIG payments, I should probably find a more reliable source of indie game income. Such as Steam.



So the sales data that they pay devs based on were fucked and they are trying to fix them or create them out of thin air basically?

Again, many devs already have their games of steam.

 

[Principate]

I don't understand how numbers can even be wrong or missing. Indie games are the easiest to calculate since you can only get them through the store. Microsoft should easily be able to track exactly how many copies were sold at each price and pay out accordingly. We're not dealing with retail environments where you have to start thinking about ship versus sold.

Even if there were an error to occur, there's no excuse for it happening multiple times or taking this long to fix.

"Oh, your payment's wrong? Let me check the numbers and verify" That's it.

Of course there's no significant error, an organisation as big as Microsoft simply wouldn't be able to effectively operate if simple "errors" could delay transaction for such a significant period of time. Someone simply doesn't give a fuck and feels no need to fast track the situation.

 

[Stare-Bear]

I did some freelance art for Disney a while back and it took me 3 to 4 months to get paid... Sometimes the larger companies are ass backwards when it comes to payouts (and I'm just one dude)

I know your pain. And sadly enough, we can't do the same with our bills. Rent still needs to be paid.

 

[Chris1]

Damn, I hope they get their money. Noone should have to wait late to get paid.

 

[Portugeezer]

Of course there's no significant error, an organisation as big as Microsoft simply wouldn't be able to effectively operate if simple "errors" could delay transaction for such a significant period of time. Someone simply doesn't give a fuck and feels no need to fast track the situation.

This, I imagine the thought process behind this is something along the lines of "they're small indie devs, no big deal"

 

[Shaunboy97]

I know your pain. And sadly enough, we can't do the same with our bills. Rent still needs to be paid.

Heck yeah... If my wife didn't have a job and I wasn't working on other projects, I wouldn't be able to survive on IF I get paid on time.

 

[Jonnax]

Of course there's no significant error, an organisation as big as Microsoft simply wouldn't be able to effectively operate if simple "errors" could delay transaction for such a significant period of time. Someone simply doesn't give a fuck and feels no need to fast track the situation.

That sounds like the issue. These indie developers are small fry to Microsoft compared to their massive business deals selling windows and stuff.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

People may be confused but we are talking about Xbox Live Indie Games and not ID@Xbox, not that it makes any differences for those of us waiting to get payed

Payment is usually made between 10 and 15 days after the quarter ends but yeah, it's not the first time they are late

As for the reason why they are late, devs complained that their Q3 reports were wrong, so MS withheld payments until they fixed the numbers

.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

still, there should be two sides to the story before people get outraged.

But from that article in the OP and some other comments from devs it sounds like this is a regular occurrence. Whatever MS's excuses would be, this should not occur repeatedly.

Is this even legal? Surely if MS are breaking the terms of their contract with these companies there's grounds for a class action lawsuit. Although that could hurt the devs too, as they'd probably be disallowed from selling their games on Xbox any more.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Of course there's no significant error, an organisation as big as Microsoft simply wouldn't be able to effectively operate if simple "errors" could delay transaction for such a significant period of time. Someone simply doesn't give a fuck and feels no need to fast track the situation.

Yep

 

[Game4life]

This is true, I have yet to get paid.

I mailed their services, and they assured me "it would be solved in the coming weeks", but I need that money now, not in months when they finally figured how to input my fucking account numbers in their system.

It's been a complete train-wreck ruled by crass incompetence. The contrast with Valve's handling of such matters is stark. The money should've been wired in fucking October, what a bloody joke.

Really sorry for you. A pretty clear fuck up by Microsoft. I hope you get paid asap.

 

[mourad louali]

Are you a dev? If so, when did they let you know about the incorrect reports?

The reports were out on October 30th and people complained the very same day on the official forum. They "fixed" it on November 4th but it didn't change anything.
On November 17th (47 days after the quarter ended), they said that payment won't be issued until they fixed the numbers.

You have to understand that XBLIG has been "dead" for a while and the only contact we have left is with an MVP doing volunteer work, not even a MS employee...

 

[lastflowers]

In all seriousness, however, this is inexcusable.

Yes.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

Able to make all of those marketing deals, money hats, and massive IP/dev buy outs happen, but unable to pay their independent teams. Gawdamn.

 

[jschreier]

Nothing on the top page of Kotaku, nothing on IGN, nothing on Polygon. No surprises here.

There's nothing on the front page of Kotaku because we do reporting (ie: talk to developers) and give Microsoft a reasonable amount of time to comment before we publish a story like this. If you're gonna comment on game journalism or whatever, at least take a second to think about what makes for good reporting and what doesn't.

 

[hawk2025]

The reports were out on October 30th and people complained the very same day on the official forum. They "fixed" it on November 4th but it didn't change anything.
On November 17th (47 days after the quarter ended), they said that payment won't be issued until they fixed the numbers.

You have to understand that XBLIG has been "dead" for a while and the only contact we have left is with an MVP doing volunteer work, not even a MS employee...

What the heck?

 

[OnPoint]

Missing entirely?

As in, they reported that your sales were "zero" when they actually happened?
.

Well no. There is no report. From July 4 up through all of August there was, and still is, no data reported for those dates in the day-to-day Download History page we have access to. And there may never be any.

We know about how much we sold from the Sales Report for June - Sept that we got a few weeks ago. It told us what we are getting paid, so we had to figure out the numbers for ourselves. That said, we got the report, but still no cash money money.

The reason we knew something was up was because our game had a PewDiePie video go up on a week and a half later (July 16) so we knew we'd at least be seeing a jump in the trials. And we saw a spike on our Humble profile, so to see absolutely nothing on XBLIG made no sense.

 

[shandy706]

I am free to not support a company whose actions I do not support. This is not the first or last shady thing MS has done as a company. I dont need to give a history lesson.

Yep, you're free to do whatever you want and I don't need a history lesson.

They need to pay people that depend on the income. Anything short of a severe crime or truly "disgusting" (human crimes) situation does not effect me and video games anymore.

Although, maybe NONE of us should be touching anything from any of these companies based on the conditions in many plants that produce many of the parts......right? I'd say a lot of people are nothing but hypocrites (in that case) including you and I.

Anyway, I reached a point where I realized life is short...when it comes to gaming I play any game, on any hardware, that I find enjoyable. It's why I buy from Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, Amazon...etc.

Sorry if it sounds insulting, but it's simply my opinion that it's not worth skipping something Naughty Dog or Playground Games or Nintendo (When it comes to Zelda) produces, just because their leadership or certain departments are idiots.

Well no. There is no report. From July 4 up through all of August there was, and still is, no data reported for those dates in the day-to-day Download History page we have access to. And there may never be any.

We know about how much we sold from the Sales Report for June - Sept that we got a few weeks ago. It told us what we are getting paid, so we had to figure out the numbers for ourselves. That said, we got the report, but still no cash money money.

The reason we knew something was up was because our game had a PewDiePie video go up on the same date (July 4) so we knew we'd at least be seeing a jump in the trials. And we saw a spike on our Humble profile, so to see absolutely nothing on XBLIG made no sense.

Crazy that there is no report. Obviously someone/something is tracking it...you'd think anyone worthwhile could supply a simple breakdown to you.

 

[Panajev2001a]

ID@Xbox parity clause wasn't fucking bad enough for indies Microsoft? Fucking pay them.

Taking advantage of the most vulnerable devs in the community.


Disgusting.

I guess you do not believe in Phil Spencer... or not enough .

Sad jokes aside, it is puzzling that they allow this kind of things to happen especially given that they are not even in a Windows on Desktop PC like dominance on the market and they need all the support they can get. What would they do if they had such market share globally? ... .

 

[LukasTaves]

This bodes well for Xbone's future indie prospects.

No wonder a number of big indie games aren't going on Xbone.

This is shitty, but it doesn't have anything to do on how indies get on Xbone. It's a different program with different policies.

I understand this, but at the same time there should be policy and procedures in place for how to handle payments.

Like I said in an earlier post. Perhaps they pay out quarterly? Who knows for sure but sometimes that does happen.

They do pay quarterly, this story is about they being late by almost a quarter after the due date.

 

[Toki767]

I guess you do not believe in Phil Spencer... or not enough .

Sad jokes aside, it is puzzling that they allow this kind of things to happen especially given that they are not even in a Windows on Desktop PC like dominance on the market and they need all the support they can get. What would they do if they had such market share globally? ... .

See: Initial Xbox One reveal.

 

[maquiladora]

Hoping that with this getting some attention now it will be resolved. Shitty situation.

 

[Tigress]

I wonder what MS's excuse is... it's not like they are running out of money and have to find the money first (as if that makes it much better as they should never have spent money that wasn't their's in the first place and they would have had to have gotten that money for it to be owed to the devs).