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Mini-LED is here and it is absolutely incredible and worth considering

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
I don't know about you guys but I buy a TV for atleast 5-10 years. Don't want to babysit my fcking tv, so no OLED for me. Mini led it is.
what are you babysitting exactly or are you one of those that thinks cause the original OLEDs suffered from burn-in all the latest ones do as well... granted if you're the sorta cunt that watches fox news 24/7 or plays fifa 24/7 then aye id probably avoid due to the static UI in parts of the screen otherwise you're grand
 

Ulysses 31

Member
This whole "burn in" concern is far overblown. I've owned numerous OLED sets without issue. Vincent put out a good video last year regarding this. He used the TV for six months, 20 hours a day without an issue. My oldest OLED currently has 6,000 hours on it without an issue that is used for TV viewing and gaming. My newest CX is strictly for gaming and has 1000 hours on it without an issue.


If that were true, why did he make a video with how to prevent burn-in just recently?

 
what are you babysitting exactly or are you one of those that thinks cause the original OLEDs suffered from burn-in all the latest ones do as well... granted if you're the sorta cunt that watches fox news 24/7 or plays fifa 24/7 then aye id probably avoid due to the static UI in parts of the screen otherwise you're grand
I'm going to use my tv for a long time, I don't buy a tv every 2 years so yes I'm worried I'll have burn in after 5+ years.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Because he would get views from paranoid people like you?
More like the person I was quoting left out an important condition for his "overblown" claim, that you have to vary your content.

I'm less paranoid now since I have a LG CX but I use my 2020 QLED a lot more.
 

dDoc

Member
More like the person I was quoting left out an important condition for his "overblown" claim, that you have to vary your content.

So that qualifies as baby sitting in my book.

I dont want to worry when I game for hours on end that the hud might impair my TV.

This is one of the biggest reasons why people who would have been interested in acquiring one want to avoid OLED. It has great blacks and pic quality, but also has an achilles heel with burn in and lets not forget image retention.

If miniLED can make advances in blooming and improving black levels it will be a better buy for most peeps.
 
mini LED wont improve on the black levels over an OLED, nothing can and besides Rtings completely disproved the whole burn-in on modern day OLEDs but hey some people believe the shit they read on the internet

Well the first Samsung QN95A review tells a different story(improvement on all Levels) and about burn in: Google Apex Legends burn in.

Static hud + HDR causes burn in.
 
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RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
Well the first Samsung QN95A review tells a different story(improvement on all Levels) and about burn in: Google Apex Legends burn in.

Static hud + HDR causes burn in.
I'm not denying a static hud +hdr causes burn it I'm saying under normal circumstances its not an issue, sure if you leave your screen on constantly and play the same game constantly then yes, avoid an OLED, but if you use your telly like a normal person it ain't an issue.. heck if i leave my tv alone for 5mins it displays a fireworks screensaver. MiniLED's for me don't offer any sort of significant improvement that us normal consumers would even notice, its an evolution of current technology not a completely brand spanking new tech like MicroLED.
 

dDoc

Member
Static hud + HDR causes burn in.

My mate got burn in from Fifa. He also watches Netflix etc, so he did vary his content. which is baby sitting.

Some people downplay it some exaggerate the issue, but its a possibility that burn in, or even image retention (which I think is just as bad if not more than blooming) are indeed a thing OLEDs suffer from.

OLED has a lot going for it, but to bury one's head in the sands saying this wont ever happen to me - well thats not a guarantee.
 

Rikkori

Member
mini LED wont improve on the black levels over an OLED, nothing can and besides Rtings completely disproved the whole burn-in on modern day OLEDs but hey some people believe the shit they read on the internet
How can you say this when it's the opposite of the truth? What the RTINGS test showed was that there's a clear lifespan to these pixels and burn in is INEVITABLE, because all burn-in is is cumulative pixel wear. If it's on, it wears out (the brighter the faster it happens etc) Obviously usage will affect what that lifespan is but if you're using your TV you're getting closer to that magical burn-in and for most people it's to be expected due to viewing habits & time they keep their TVs. Only dorks who buy a new TV every 2-3 years shouldn't worry about it.
Quoting a post I made re burn-in chance elsewhere:
There's a lot of caveats to burn-in based on usage & settings. If we look at the RTINGS tests, the CNN TVs show burn it on magenta showing clearly at 20 weeks (for max brightness) or 30 weeks (200 nits brightness). Now obviously if you don't watch the same thing over & over, the rate at which you hit the pixels in the same way will vary wildly based on content, so the 20 weeks (or 2800 hours) is the worst case scenario. If we look at the other footage, you can see they all pretty much give up around 100 weeks, with the exception of COD WW2 which is the least stressful test you'd ever do, so you that's at 14000 hours or so. So let's say that you can expect to be mostly burn-in free for between 3000 and 14000 hours.

Now the reason I say it's going to burn-in before the useful life of the product is because, think about it, will the OLED PQ suddenly be so bad it's unusable or you wouldn't want to watch it 5-10 years from now? Ofc not, just look at CRT & Plasma still kicking ass today. 14000 hours at 8hrs a day is less than 5 years. And since it would still have great PQ even if you were to upgrade then, you could still have used it in another room or given it away to a friend/relative to use, but with burn-in pretty much guaranteed by that point, you can't.

So that's why I say think about OLEDs in a much more disposable luxury kinda way.

Secondly, of course miniLED improves on a black level - it's the same principle as why oled has better black levels! More control over what area gets lit results into less spill over (almost 0 on OLED, higher on falds ofc) light and so better blacks. This is basic display tech knowledge. Here, straight from your favourite OLED makers, extolling the benefits of local dimming for better black levels:
Full Array
TVs with Full Array Local Dimming technology have multiple zones throughout the display and—unlike TVs that have LEDs around the edges of the panel—these LEDs are instead placed behind the screen, like the Direct Back-lit TVs… but that’s where the similarity ends. Full Array LED backlighting delivers hundreds of different LEDs, resulting in light levels from many separate zones. Thanks to these independently controlled light zones, you see enhanced black levels, better shadow detail and a decreased level of “light bleed”—which can occur when the light is not completely blocked, allowing excess light to "bleed" out around the edges of the panel and creating areas that are too light on a dark background. With light bleeding decreased, you get greater contrast and superior picture quality, while enjoying enriched colors and life-like images for a true home-cinema experience. And while Edge-Lit Dimming improves picture quality to a point, Full Array Local Dimming is the crème de la crème of Local Dimming technology—which has never been more important than in today’s high dynamic range (HDR) TV realm.

Mini LED technology “miniaturizes” the TV’s light source, making it much smaller. The smaller size allows manufacturers to pack more LEDs in the same TV screen size for increased brightness compared to regular LCD TVs. Also, having more dimming zones allows for more precise control of that brightness. As such, a Mini LED TV can achieve deeper blacks and a higher contrast ratio than other types of LED TV. Scenes both light and dark, benefit greatly from these performance upgrades, appearing more real.
 
mini-LED backlights hold a lot of promise for helping with some of the issues of LCD's but they are not a slam dunk. OLED has perfect black levels due to per pixel control , mini-LED can improve contrast ratio but cannot match the pixel being turned off, still for some it may be good enough.

mini-LED cannot solve one of my pet peeves which is DSE (dirty screen effect), I really dislike that and its pretty much pot luck when buying a TV if you get it not.

Hisense has been using mini-LED for the past 1-2 years and seen little market success with it.

A lot depends on how good the algorithm controlling the mini-LED zones is, this matters for both movie and games modes were they should not be the same with extensive testing required.

The flagship mini-LED's from Samsung and LG cost more than entry level OLED's, so will remain the domain for those with deep pockets and a desire to not use OLED.

It could take another 2-3 years before competent mini-LED implementations work their way down to sub $1000 TV's.
 
Don't you need ACTIVE MATRIX Mini-LED? Just because its Mini-LED does not mean you will take advantage of all the dimming zones. I believe you need a good upscaling/AI processor to do that?!



At 5:20



Samsung is going to release QD-OLED in 2022

 
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RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
How can you say this when it's the opposite of the truth? What the RTINGS test showed was that there's a clear lifespan to these pixels and burn in is INEVITABLE, because all burn-in is is cumulative pixel wear. If it's on, it wears out (the brighter the faster it happens etc) Obviously usage will affect what that lifespan is but if you're using your TV you're getting closer to that magical burn-in and for most people it's to be expected due to viewing habits & time they keep their TVs. Only dorks who buy a new TV every 2-3 years shouldn't worry about it.
Quoting a post I made re burn-in chance elsewhere:


Secondly, of course miniLED improves on a black level - it's the same principle as why oled has better black levels! More control over what area gets lit results into less spill over (almost 0 on OLED, higher on falds ofc) light and so better blacks. This is basic display tech knowledge. Here, straight from your favourite OLED makers, extolling the benefits of local dimming for better black levels:




They're utilising C7 OLEDs ffs... were now 4 generations on with all the knowledge and tech improvements to mitigate this, as for minLED its not a big step up over OLED's which is what i was getting at, so if i get 5yrs out of this C10 i'll be happy to kick it into one of the kids rooms and snag a microLED set once they become somewhat affordable which will be a true generational leap.
 

Rikkori

Member
They're utilising C7 OLEDs ffs... were now 4 generations on with all the knowledge and tech improvements to mitigate this, as for minLED its not a big step up over OLED's which is what i was getting at, so if i get 5yrs out of this C10 i'll be happy to kick it into one of the kids rooms and snag a microLED set once they become somewhat affordable which will be a true generational leap.
Right now that's the hard data we have and we can point to, unlike these vague 'but they've improved it since then' non-sense, which btw is nothing new, many just like you would parrot the same line for the C6 and before and then when proven wrong with subsequent usage over the years would then revert back to the good ol' 'yeah but that was the old ones, the news ones are so much better'. Also they improved brightness a lot, so what, is that's free and has no cost in terms of pixel degradation? Unlikely.

The absurd part of you thinking miniled is not a big step up over oled but championing a microled hope is that you don't even understand what these technologies do. What do you think is the giant advantage of microled over oled? It's basically down to brightness while maintaining near-perfect blacks. And so what do you think minileds are doing? They're getting closer to perfect black while maintaining high brightness. So really why would you wait for microled unless you want a giant wall of display modules over a miniled? It makes no sense. Even with microleds getting brighter, they're not exactly promising numbers far above what something like Sony Z9G already does, and ofc the new Samsungs will boast even higher numbers with the miniled and smaller layers. And really, perceptually, even high-end falds were almost there because the better contrast ratio advantage of oled is only really high in pitch black rooms due to how our eyes work, so in rooms with even a bit of light (eg even at night you still get light through the window from the sky) the difference gets minimised.

And it's not like I'm recommending you buy one over your CX, but like - why are you talking about things you don't know the basics about and with such authority? Read up and be informed first.
 

angrod14

Member
The only tech that would be able to rival OLED in terms of sheer picture quality is Micro LED, IF it happens to live up to its promises and be viable for the mass market; we're still far away from that day. Mini LED is just another improvement to the LCD technology, which is inherently inferior to OLED.
 

Haemi

Member
The only tech that would be able to rival OLED in terms of sheer picture quality is Micro LED, IF it happens to live up to its promises and be viable for the mass market; we're still far away from that day. Mini LED is just another improvement to the LCD technology, which is inherently inferior to OLED.
Not true. Another technology is electroluminescent quantum dot displays. Don't confuse it with Samsungs quantum dot displays. Samsung uses blue light to stimulate quantum dots to produce light of different colors. Electroluminescent quantum dots get activated by electricity. They are the non-organic equivalent to OLEDs. Just more stable (no burn in).
 
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If that were true, why did he make a video with how to prevent burn-in just recently?


He's trying to educate people, because of the paranoia.

Though the subtitle thing isn't really necessary. Every line takes up a different part of the display and they fade in and out unlike a static video game hud. And the latter really isn't an issue either unless you binge games with a static hud for hours and hours. At least, since the 2018 lg C8 panels have been fairly durable.

The only thing that is an issue i've found, is playing content with black bars or letterboxed content, esp. 4:3 content. Since the bars on the side won't be turned on during such content, you're wearing out the middle faster and the sides may appear brighter after extended periods. Movies with top and bottom letterbox bars seemingly don't affect my display given that I don't watch 4k HDR movies on it. HDR with letterbox bars can present issues after a while.

If you only watch 16:9 content and you don't have static logos displayed for more than 3 or 4 hours it's a non issue. You don't have to worry about a paused image for 5 or 10 minutes while you grab a sandwich or something.

---

What really excites me is the A90J master series sony oled. With the new LG evo panel combined with a Panasonic style aluminum heatsink, image retention and burn in for SDR will be a complete non issue and HDR will double in peak brightness. Effectively doubling specular highlight brightness in hdr is a massive upgrade.

Samsung Mini led is just trying to narrow the gap between oled and lcd ; it can never match a self emissive display. It's only for the paranoid, people that binge online games and people with a very bright room with lots of natural light.
 

OmegaSupreme

advanced basic bitch
The new Samsung mini leds will probably be great but that price premium is a bummer. No Dolby vision either. Come on Samsung!
 

vpance

Member
It’ll be interesting to see how the new 1300 nits OLED panels do in terms of image retention and burn in. If the improved heatsink tech can compensate for the bump in brightness that’s going to be a great option on the highend with unseen PQ for consumers.

That said there’s no way I’m rolling the dice for that bleeding edge especially at those premium prices.
 
Not true. Another technology is electroluminescent quantum dot displays. Don't confuse it with Samsungs quantum dot displays. Samsung uses blue light to stimulate quantum dots to produce light of different colors. Electroluminescent quantum dots get activated by electricity. They are the non-organic equivalent to OLEDs. Just more stable (no burn in).
We are a loooong way away from self emissive quantum dot displays.

The next competitor for Oled is Samsung's Qned gallium nitrate displays, which should be interesting. I'm not sure if micro led will ever become a mass market thing given the massive pixel pitch and production costs. I expect it to remain a pipe dream personally, but one that isn't really needed anyway.
 

Ywap

Member
As i´m obsessed with perfect blacks and blur free motion i went with OLED.

The motion handling on LG:s OLED:s with black frame insertion enabled is not that far from CRT quality at 60hz (y)
 

BuffNTuff

Banned
Mini LED offers a number of significant improvements over typical lcd and led such as:

1. Increased zone counts by a higher density backlight, which will greatly minimize blooming and enhance black levels and contrast. The best lcd ever, the 65 inch z9d had a little under 700 LEDs powering the backlight with each one being a zone. Mini led is offering an improvement that is an order of magnitude higher with leds approaching tens of thousands.

2. Higher zone counts enables higher peak brightness as smaller sized zones mean power can be distributed to smaller areas creating higher brightness.

3. The higher density of leds in the backlight means diffusers don’t need to be used to spread light out to the lcd panel, so this will result in making uniformity MUCH better, eliminating things like dirty screen effect and clouding.

4. The use of mini leds also means the bulbs themselves are much smaller and can be placed closer to the lcd matrix itself, like tcl is doing with their QD zero TVs. This will enable two big gains:

first. It will increase viewing angles dramatically because one of the reasons. LCDs have bad viewing angles is because the light coming from the backlight through the lcd layer has a gap and light bleeds through out the panel, causing contrast to be lost.
Second, this will also help other picture defects such as banding because the leds themselves will be much smaller and more uniform.

Overall, mini led isn’t perfect but it’s an exceptional stop gap that really helps to minimize a lot of LCDs historical flaws and brings it extremely close (and I predict may even surpass due to brightness and resolution of defects like uniformity and banding) to OLED in perceived picture quality. As someone that owns a Sony z9D and an Lg c8, something with 700+ zones is very close to OLED performance in terms of black levels and blooming.
With mini led offering zones multiple times higher than 700 (depending on brand and generation), people are going to be pretty surprised with how much the gap is going to close with OLED.
 
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Edokataki

Banned
New technologies are for rich people and idiots, no one else. Every sensible person who works, has a family or values his money will wait the technology to mature couple years and then buy a better and more affordable product.
 

JeloSWE

Member
mini LED wont improve on the black levels over an OLED, nothing can and besides Rtings completely disproved the whole burn-in on modern day OLEDs but hey some people believe the shit they read on the internet
But, it clearly showed burn-in on their test screens. What are you smoking?
 

Haemi

Member
We are a loooong way away from self emissive quantum dot displays.

Do you have some sources? I would really like to read more about it. OLEDs are a quite young technology in TVs. Not that long ago you could read everywhere, that the blue OLEDs aged to fast.
 

BuffNTuff

Banned
New technologies are for rich people and idiots, no one else. Every sensible person who works, has a family or values his money will wait the technology to mature couple years and then buy a better and more affordable product.

mini led isn’t new. TCL released the first mini led tv in the US about 2 years ago. Furthermore, they’re going to be the ones producing mini leds for all of the other manufacturers including Samsung.

I think these days - especially when it comes to cheap electronics that have been commoditized by Chinese manufacturers, most of us aren’t getting new technologies anyways, the Chinese market is where they do a lot of their beta testing and experimentation.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
But, it clearly showed burn-in on their test screens. What are you smoking?

It showed burn in on 4 year old tech via extreme viewing habits, I dunno about you but my tv isn't on 20hrs a day and stuck to the same static channel shit, either way I'm not concerned with getting burn in on my LGCX with my viewing and gaming habits and I don't view mini LED as something I wished I had held out for, its merely an evolution of the current FALD tech we've had for a few years
 

Rikkori

Member
As much as oled's picture is unmatched, I'm excited for mini led specially due to its cheaper price. Let's see which mini led will stand out this year. Hopefully the new TCL delivers
I really wish TCL hadn't chosen to go for 8K this year with its 6-series instead of keeping the miniled of last year and just improving it a bit. That would've been such a killer product in terms of value.
 

JeloSWE

Member
It showed burn in on 4 year old tech via extreme viewing habits, I dunno about you but my tv isn't on 20hrs a day and stuck to the same static channel shit, either way I'm not concerned with getting burn in on my LGCX with my viewing and gaming habits and I don't view mini LED as something I wished I had held out for, its merely an evolution of the current FALD tech we've had for a few years
I on the other hand use my TV as my primary monitor and it's on for about 16 hour a day with static content, like the task bar and browser tabs etc. So burn in would happen for me within a couple of moths for sure.

Secondly, the 4 year old tech hasn't really improved that much, only their anti burn in strategies. The screens are kept dim, they use ABL, automatically dimming down after a little wile on bright static imagery. Also the screen cleaning compensation cycles probably ages the lesser used pixels to catch up the the more used ones to hide the uneven aging due to a say a red logo. But this in turn will also lead to all pixels on the screen losing brightness as a result. So while they are better at hiding and limiting the rate at which the organic pixels age they still do.

But I can agree that your viewing habits probably doesn't pose any significant risk of visible burn in.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
I on the other hand use my TV as my primary monitor and it's on for about 16 hour a day with static content, like the task bar and browser tabs etc. So burn in would happen for me within a couple of moths for sure.

Secondly, the 4 year old tech hasn't really improved that much, only their anti burn in strategies. The screens are kept dim, they use ABL, automatically dimming down after a little wile on bright static imagery. Also the screen cleaning compensation cycles probably ages the lesser used pixels to catch up the the more used ones to hide the uneven aging due to a say a red logo. But this in turn will also lead to all pixels on the screen losing brightness as a result. So while they are better at hiding and limiting the rate at which the organic pixels age they still do.

But I can agree that your viewing habits probably doesn't pose any significant risk of visible burn in.

Obviously anyone using an OLED as a primary monitor for prolonged gaming or work sessions, is gonna run severe risk of burn in, which is a pity cause for gaming its really something else to behold, i play on mine mainly in the evenings when everyone has went to bed and the picture is jaw dropingly gorgeous
 
I really wish TCL hadn't chosen to go for 8K this year with its 6-series instead of keeping the miniled of last year and just improving it a bit. That would've been such a killer product in terms of value.
I know, unfortunately it seems a marketing move to push selling 8k tvs which I could not care less about it. 4k is more than enough resolution wise.
 

JeloSWE

Member
I know, unfortunately it seems a marketing move to push selling 8k tvs which I could not care less about it. 4k is more than enough resolution wise.
I couldn't agree more, but any thing above 85" could theoretically benefit from higher resolution. Though there are barely any true 4K movies, most use a 2K source, and few games can be run comfortably at 4K with high settings let alone 8K.
 

Excess

Member
I on the other hand use my TV as my primary monitor and it's on for about 16 hour a day with static content, like the task bar and browser tabs etc. So burn in would happen for me within a couple of moths for sure.
Just a suggestion, but here's what I do to minimize that possibility.

- Set the taskbar to auto hide
- Rotate the wallpaper
- Remove all desktop shortcut icons
- Set a screen-saver or screen off function to trigger in 1 min
- Resize browser window every day and move to different area of screen
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Just a suggestion, but here's what I do to minimize that possibility.

- Set the taskbar to auto hide
- Rotate the wallpaper
- Remove all desktop shortcut icons
- Set a screen-saver or screen off function to trigger in 1 min
- Resize browser window every day and move to different area of screen
Max energy saving if you don't need the brightness. 👀
 
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Rikkori

Member
I couldn't agree more, but any thing above 85" could theoretically benefit from higher resolution. Though there are barely any true 4K movies, most use a 2K source, and few games can be run comfortably at 4K with high settings let alone 8K.
Tbh I've tested all the 8K & 4K high-ends (75" & 85" both) and for anything 75" & above 8K is absolutely a plus, especially for games. The extra PPI is still worthwhile even if let's say you render at a lower resolution. So when going big I'd absolutely want 8K if splurging but if you have a TV that's as solid as the TCL 635 for a low price then the value still wins. But that's also me being cheap, since TVs drop so much in value over time I usually prefer to go for value pick & invest the rest, feels way better. :coffee:
 
I couldn't agree more, but any thing above 85" could theoretically benefit from higher resolution. Though there are barely any true 4K movies, most use a 2K source, and few games can be run comfortably at 4K with high settings let alone 8K.
Exactly. We barely have any true 4k content, imagine in 8k, especially nowadays with everything going digital...
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
mini LED wont improve on the black levels over an OLED, nothing can and besides Rtings completely disproved the whole burn-in on modern day OLEDs but hey some people believe the shit they read on the internet

black levels are good on OLED but they are also crushed as its harder to pinpoint the points at which the oleds switch at the darker levels which causes gradation that isn't as smooth.

If mini-led can come close they will have less color banding issues with dark colors.
 

JeloSWE

Member
Just a suggestion, but here's what I do to minimize that possibility.

- Set the taskbar to auto hide
- Rotate the wallpaper
- Remove all desktop shortcut icons
- Set a screen-saver or screen off function to trigger in 1 min
- Resize browser window every day and move to different area of screen
Sounds like a chore :) Also I REALLY don't like ABL my screen needs to stay at the same brightness levels regardless of how long the image stay the same and I want higher static brightness levels than 150 nit. So my Sony Z9F LCD is actually an amazing monitor. Color accuracy is really on point as well.
 

01011001

Banned
Just a suggestion, but here's what I do to minimize that possibility.

- Set the taskbar to auto hide
- Rotate the wallpaper
- Remove all desktop shortcut icons
- Set a screen-saver or screen off function to trigger in 1 min
- Resize browser window every day and move to different area of screen

yeah, you could do that... or not fucking use an OLED as your main, long session, PC monitor :) I think that's the better option
 
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vpance

Member
QN85A could be the best value performer.

~600 zones(?)
No X-wide angle that nerfs brightness or contrast.
$2200 @ 65"

 

JeloSWE

Member
Does this still have lcd's slow response time? cause Im sick of seeing this.

The mouse trail is due to most modern screen displaying the image with Sample and Hold. Old CRT screens are actually black for most of the duration between frames, which you could see if you were to if film it in slow motion. Then you would see the electron beam sweep over the screen but the phosphors of the pixels will quickly die out and go black again. But on modern LCD and OLED the pixels stay fully lit for most of the frames duration. The trail you are seeing is actually motion blur caused my you eyes continuous movement following along the moving mouse pointer, it's actually static on screen for a full frame while your eyes keep moving, your eyes don't move in a stepped fashion so as your eyes keep moving during the frame the whole image and pointer get exposed over the distance your eyes are moving during that frame, looking like it's motion blurred. So it has nothing to do with slow response time.

The only way to mitigate this is to either increase frame rate, the motion blur distance will halv every time you double the fps, or you can use Black Frame Insertion with closely resembles the way the CRT screen turns black for most of the frames duration, only to briefly flash the image. The downside of this is that the image then will flicker unless the frame rate is above 90hz. So using Sample and Hold on lower fps will make the image very calm but will introduce motion blur in your eyes as they move around the screen.
 
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