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Mini-LED is here and it is absolutely incredible and worth considering

JohnnyFootball

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I am a shill for OLED. I own an LG B7A (2017 model) and I never see myself going back to LED of any sort until MicroLED makes it way into consumers hands at a reasonable price. I will be getting a C9 in a few weeks. Once you see see images without haloing you can't not be horribly distracted by it. OLED is still the top image quality dog until MicroLED arrives and assuming it can deliver on it's promises.

MicroLED is still a good 3 (at best) - 5(most likely) years away unless there is a major breakthrough. Right now the current hiccup with MicroLED is getting the pixel density down to a level where it can be sold at reasonable sizes. Anyone that says "you should wait for MicroLED" doesn't know what they're talking about, especially if you're looking for something soon. It's not anywhere remotely close to being something you can buy and pick up at the store.

However, something else has come along that has been a long time coming and quite frankly should have been part of the initial HDR rollout: Mini-LED

Mini-LED is an excellent stop gap that drastically increases the number of dimming zones, to aroun 900+ zones, which can drastically reduce haloing. It's not a good as OLED in terms of deep blacks, off angle viewing or pixel response time, but it can be for those who want something that has a death fear of possible burn in (something that is extremely unlikely to happen if you vary your content)






The new TCL Mini-LED looks amazing, although they don't have HDMI 2.1 support. CES should be the best it has been years where hopefully many manufacturers jump on the plane.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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There has been some promise in that area, but many of the disadvantages still remain, such as off angle viewing and I am having a very hard time believing there wouldn't be a lot input lag due to layers.
I don't know enough about the technology to say why there might be more input lag. I mean, it's a fundamental issue with the technology so I'm not sure layering will make the issue better or worse.

Reminds me of Trinitron's aperture grill offering a cleaner picture compared to previous shadow mask designs.
 

Hendrick's

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The new TCL Mini-LED looks amazing, although they don't have HDMI 2.1 support. CES should be the best it has been years where hopefully many manufacturers jump on the plane.
Are there any benefits from having 2.1 on a 4k tv outside of maybe greater than 60fps PC gaming?
 

JohnnyFootball

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What happens when one of the LEDs dies on you and you're left with a permanent dark spot?
That can happen with any LED TV, though. Something I have never heard of happening to be honest. I have never seen forum posts about it or anything. ANything with a light can go out, but it must be one of the rarest TV failures.
Are there any benefits from having 2.1 on a 4k tv outside of maybe greater than 60fps PC gaming?
The biggest advantage of HDMI 2.1 is VRR, which could be a godsend for next gen console gaming. VRR does give developers more flexibility when it comes to framerate since they don't have to target a locked 60 (or 30). Now, I do expect most developers to still target specific framerates since HDMI 2.1 TVs will be rather rare especially at launch. It can be amazing for PC gamers since nvidia has announced they will support HDMI 2.1

HDMI 2.1, also has the bandwidth to provide full 10-bit RGB (maybe even 12-bit) color at 4K/120 fps.

However, HDMI 2.1 is of limited use since we are a ways away from titles reliably running at 4K 120 fps.

I am getting HDMI 2.1 for future proofing and any HDMI 2.1 TV should easily carry us through the next console generation.
 
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The Elite

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This seems like the next big think that will get me to grab a new TV in a few years.

I currently have the Sony x900e(fixed) and I love the local dimming on that but it could be so much better.
 
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JohnnyFootball

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This seems like the next big think that will get me to grab a new TV in a few years.

I currently have the Sony x800e and I love the local dimming on that but it could be so much better.
Ummm.....sorry to tell you this, but the X800E doesn't have local dimming.


Out of the 2017 models, the 900E and 930E were the only Sony TVs that had local dimming.
 

The Elite

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Ummm.....sorry to tell you this, but the X800E doesn't have local dimming.


Out of the 2017 models, the 900E and 930E were the only Sony TVs that had local dimming.
LOL. I meant the x900e.

I previously owned an x800d.
 
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Shifty

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I dig that local dimming comparison, the backlight view reminds me of writing pixel shaders :messenger_grinning:

Mini LED looks pretty hot, though I'm still pretty happy with my basic bitch Sony Bravia until HDR becomes a truly ubiquitous standard.
 

JohnnyFootball

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I dig that local dimming comparison, the backlight view reminds me of writing pixel shaders :messenger_grinning:

Mini LED looks pretty hot, though I'm still pretty happy with my basic bitch Sony Bravia until HDR becomes a truly ubiquitous standard.
I have to admit that I have been so spoiled by OLED perfect blacks that whenever I use an LED, I am inclined to turn the local dimming off since haloing is so noticeable and godawful that I'd rather deal with worse contrast.
 

JohnnyFootball

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Will this be coming to PC monitors? I dont want anything over 27"
Its been in several monitors already. Very expensive ones.

In my case, I am not going to consider a new monitor until DP 2.0 arrives where I can get full RGB 4K/ 144Hz
 
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cireza

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That might be great but if it is, like OLED, reserved for big ass TVs, then no thanks.

My main problem anyway is movement blur. Not sure it helps in this topic.
 
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JohnnyFootball

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That might be great but if it is, like OLED, reserved for big ass TVs, then no thanks.

My main problem anyway is movement blur. Not sure it helps in this topic.
OLED is absolutely the best for that, but it also stutters pretty bad.
 

Kuranghi

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If you want miniLED now, I still recommend to buy a second hand Sony ZD9/Z9D, its as close as you can get to miniLED as of this message. I write this in every TV thread on here but its the only thing close to miniLED technology right now and they are getting hard to come by so I like to promote it whenever I can. Its from 2016 and even Samsungs "top of the line" 2019 8K LCD "only" has 480 dimming zones. The ZD9/Z9D has 646 zones. 75" has 840+ zones. Its a sight to behold gaming on it, whether SDR or HDR. OLED's pixel response rate is too fast for <60hz gaming because the pixels change too fast and your eyes create a ton of blur to explain why the object on screen has moved.

65" ZD9/Z9D - https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/010c617

65" Q950R - https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/88a21867

If you only play games you'll want the 75" because the pixel response rate is much faster, especially if you play a lot of pixelated games, but if you also watch TV/films the 65" will give you the best motion on 24hz content.
 

JohnnyFootball

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JohnnyFootball JohnnyFootball
Is Mini-LED generally more expensive than OLED? I was thinking about picking up an older model OLED on Black Friday.
OLED is your only option because Mini-LED isn't out at this moment, but will be soon. Right now your only option appears to be a 75 inch TCL and it won't support HDMI 2.1

Get an OLED if you want one. The 55" B9 is being sold for $1299 and it has support for HDMI 2.1 and is likely going to be only a little more expensive than any older model you MAY find. Most older models are long sold out.
 

Kuranghi

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The TCL copied all of the bad traits of 2018+ Samsungs and Vincent Teoh was not impressed by it, at least thats what I took from his video on it. Vincent calibrated my ZD9 and he still insists its the King of LCDs in 2019. Its because OLED is the new thing they will never tell you about its downsides in reviews or in retail stores.

"OLED is just better in every way than LCD... oh except in this area... and this..." etc. I have both an AF9 and a ZD9 so I'm not just saying it because I own an LCD.
 

JohnnyFootball

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If you want miniLED now, I still recommend to buy a second hand Sony ZD9/Z9D, its as close as you can get to miniLED as of this message. I write this in every TV thread on here but its the only thing close to miniLED technology right now and they are getting hard to come by so I like to promote it whenever I can. Its from 2016 and even Samsungs "top of the line" 2019 8K LCD "only" has 480 dimming zones. The ZD9/Z9D has 646 zones. 75" has 840+ zones. Its a sight to behold gaming on it, whether SDR or HDR. OLED's pixel response rate is too fast for <60hz gaming because the pixels change too fast and your eyes create a ton of blur to explain why the object on screen has moved.

65" ZD9/Z9D - https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/010c617

65" Q950R - https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/88a21867

If you only play games you'll want the 75" because the pixel response rate is much faster, especially if you play a lot of pixelated games, but if you also watch TV/films the 65" will give you the best motion on 24hz content.
The Z9D is an incredible TV and represents the best LED can offer, but it's not really available (seriously who has it in stock?) and if it were it's doubtful that it would be cheaper than the 65" LG B9 OLED, which is being sold for $1999, which completely decimates both of the TVs you have linked. As good as the Z9D is, it cannot touch OLED when it comes to contrast.

The TCL copied all of the bad traits of 2018+ Samsungs and Vincent Teoh was not impressed by it, at least thats what I took from his video on it. Vincent calibrated my ZD9 and he still insists its the King of LCDs in 2019. Its because OLED is the new thing they will never tell you about its downsides in reviews or in retail stores.

"OLED is just better in every way than LCD... oh except in this area... and this..." etc. I have both an AF9 and a ZD9 so I'm not just saying it because I own an LCD.
Vincent and most reviewers have always been honest about OLED downsides, they mention the possibility of burn in and recognize that its very rare if youi vary your content. Don't know what else is worth mentioning in that regard.
 
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llien

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Well, mini-LED is essentially "OLED minus organic bit".
And it's the organic bit that:
1) Negatively impacts screen longevity (burn in etc)
2) Limits max luminance

Cool that Samsung is still pushing mini LED forward, but price of those things is prohibitive (this coming from a W7 OLED owner)
 

Jigsaah

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OLED is your only option because Mini-LED isn't out at this moment, but will be soon. Right now your only option appears to be a 75 inch TCL and it won't support HDMI 2.1

Get an OLED if you want one. The 55" B9 is being sold for $1299 and it has support for HDMI 2.1 and is likely going to be only a little more expensive than any older model you MAY find. Most older models are long sold out.
Yea that was the one I was looking at. Figured I'd finally sell off my KS8000 for an undecided price to cover some of the cost. It's old but I took good care of it. Even got the maintenance visit before warranty wore out to get the panel replaced by Samsung. 55 inch is bigger than what I currently have...For gaming I don't think I would wanna go too much larger than 55 inch.

The 2.1 HDMI is important for.....120 fps? HDR? Just taking guesses at this point.
 
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Kuranghi

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I prefer shadow detail on my LCD than OLED. Games rarely if ever show true black pixels [On loading screens if ever] alongside bright pixels. So I think its a better representation of HDR if the TV can actually show the full range up to a 1000 nits [or 4000 or 10000 in some cases].

Vincent explains better than I can here - - "more pop" . He also talks about the shadow detail in there somewhere.

Take RE2 remake for instance, in the scene where its supposed to be a pitch black corridor near the beginning its actually not very dark so OLED isn't really giving you its full potential, ie infinite:1 contrast ratio. If you have the whole screen filled by brightness on a ZD9 [or equivalent LCD, like DX902] its way more stunning than on an OLED which will dim to 200-300 nits due to ABL.

Also, say you are watching an HDR movie like Annihilation, it has a scene near the end in a cave and its so dark that the background has a very low "range", with a very bright object also in the scene. OLED will show this exactly as it should be, which is great on paper but in reality [even in pitch dark at night] your eyes adjust for the bright object and you lose a lot ofthe shadow detail. LCD elevates the brightness of the pixels that are meant to be really dark [or off even] so its not how it should be displayed technically, but I prefer it because I dont "lose" that detail.
 

Kuranghi

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JohnnyFootball JohnnyFootball Sorry for so many posts, why can't I edit my posts? I just hear this a lot that OLED "decimates" LCD as you said, but its a bit more nuanced than that and brightness is a big factor.

Did you ever see HDR games on a super-high end FALD LCD before you bought your OLED?
 

KorbinDallas

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That tcl should be priced as a sub $1k panel. The specs sound great, and those reviewers make it seem nice. However, it has horrible motion, blooming, diluted colors...it's not worth an OLED price. Look at the q8fn or h9f for comparison.
 
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Tygeezy

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this certainly isn't an oled killer and not to be confused with micro led. The input lag is apparently terrible if you set local dimming to high also. The c9 is the undisputed heavyweight champion of display technology for gaming.
 

Kuranghi

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That tcl should be priced as a sub $1k panel. The specs sound great, and those reviewers make it seem nice. However, it has horrible motion, blooming, diluted colors...it's not worth an OLED price. Look at the q8fn or h9f for comparison.
Not to defend that particular TCL because I don't think its very good, but bare in mind that if you are in game mode then none of the motion/IFC/dejudder/whatever they call it settings can usually be turned on anyway so the bare frames should look similar on most TVs. If watching movies outside game mode then it will matter if you turn on the motion settings.

Sometimes you can turn that stuff on in game mode [with increased input lag] but you wouldn't want to anyway because swift pans or camera movements will confuse the hell out of the algorithm and look awful, as you say.
 
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Tygeezy

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Oleds can get extremely bright by the way. They can go over 800 nits in smaller windows and the peak at over 700 nits in "real scene" brightness. Where they will struggle is in 75% and above windows which really aren't a whole lot of scenes. How often is scene just pure white (100 % window)?
 

Kuranghi

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Also, just my two cents, I wouldn't get too hung up on input lag, If its less than 50ms its gonna be fine. Its hard for the average person to tell the difference between 12ms and 26ms.

I did blind tests in my job where I gave people a controller and had them play a racing game and an FPS, to see if they could tell which one had the lower lag/"felt better". Only a couple of people out of around 50 could tell the difference between ~12ms [C9 in game mode @ 4K] and ~26 ms [XF90 in game mode @ 4K]. Most didn't even notice a difference outside of game mode, which I was surprised at.

When I switched out of game mode to dynamic/vivid, with its ludicrous 80-100+ ms input lag some people said that felt better than the game mode. I just go really hung up on this when I was trying to choose a TV and decided to do some tests for myself. Numbers don't tell the whole story imo.
 

Kuranghi

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Oleds can get extremely bright by the way. They can go over 800 nits in smaller windows and the peak at over 700 nits in "real scene" brightness. Where they will struggle is in 75% and above windows which really aren't a whole lot of scenes. How often is scene just pure white (100 % window)?
I agree for the most part, except its 25% windows and above that are a lot dimmer on OLED. A C9 gives 500 nits on a 25% window and only 300 nits on a 50% window. Baring in mind thats a test pattern and in a real scene, those bright spots that constitute 25% of the screen will often be alongside other brightish areas so they will appear even dimmer than that, because of the ABL.

Thats all in HDR, in SDR everything will be under 500 nits on a C9. In SDR on a bright LCD those same scenes will be tonemapped to the displays capabilities and will be three times as bright as the OLED [On ZD9].
 

Tygeezy

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I agree for the most part, except its 25% windows and above that are a lot dimmer on OLED. A C9 gives 500 nits on a 25% window and only 300 nits on a 50% window. Baring in mind thats a test pattern and in a real scene, those bright spots that constitute 25% of the screen will often be alongside other brightish areas so they will appear even dimmer than that, because of the ABL.

Thats all in HDR, in SDR everything will be under 500 nits on a C9. In SDR on a bright LCD those same scenes will be tonemapped to the displays capabilities and will be three times as bright as the OLED [On ZD9].
530 nitt is still really good in a 25 % window. 50 % of the screen is really huge, you just don't see too many sustained scenes that call for that brightness in that large of a window.
 

kingbean

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I've got a poor mans edge lit samsung N9000 and I think it's totally fine for now.

This mini-led stuff seems like a good upgrade for me in a few years.
 

llien

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No dude. Not even close. MiniLED still requires a backlight. MicroLED will do away with that once (still an IF) it becomes mainstream in 3-5 years.

MiniLED is the stop gap.
Ouch. Sounds more or less like FALD to me.
 

UltimaKilo

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Micro LED has me excited for mobile phone and smart watch applications more than anything. The power savings should be dramatic, maybe up to 20%!