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[Drew1440]

I wonder if this is relevant (the comparison which is really low quality only shows close up results and doesn't move ahead even a little to see if it also affects how things would pop into view from the darkness, at least in this game's scenario, which is one game the Saturn actually shows better draw distance in as demonstrated earlier anyway) and if comparisons as we see them today, from official or unofficial emulation or even as best case/later model scenarios make the console look even better than it would have been for most early consumers back then. Appparently pretty much all early models up to at least 1996 when the console wars were decided had this banding issue, weird...


I'm reading it's due to a different gpu version that also causes more slowdown in cases for early models. Would be cool if we could see such enhancements for Saturn as well like what I discuss in the quote above but I'm guessing if no emulator has done it so far it's not doable without problems. Or perhaps nobody has thought to do it and increase color depth or accuracy or whatever the actual problem is, like other emulators add z buffering or whatever stops the commonly hated PlayStation polygons from warping all over the place (nope, I know I'm not that smart to be first, or do it).

It was because a bug in some batch of GPU (IIRC memory?) causing a 5bit goraud shading instead of 8bit. This issue was present in some 1001 and 1002 models in Japan.

Sony revised the Ps1 Gpu a few times throughout the lifecycle
Rev A GPUs are only used on Japan and in early Namco System 11 games (Tekken), these had a few rendering bugs and were quickly ditched in favor of Rev B

Rev B fixed a few issues and was used in the US/Europe launch systems and in Japan. These GPUs use VRAM like RevA and were also used in later System 11 revisions.

Rev C was introduced around 1996 and changed to SGRAM instead of VRAM due to cost issues. This did change the capabilities of the console to some extent as seen in the Tomb Raider video since the console could now do full 8bit colour like the Saturn.
Since compatibility could be a concern, Sony provided two types of debug units, one that came with the VRAM gpu, and the other with SGRAM, indicated by the case colour (blue/green).

Sega also went thought a similar change with the Saturn, going from VRAM to SGRAM but the changes didn't affect much in the end, the performance was consistent across all models.
Having the graphics RAM split into different pools didn't help either, even if it had more than the PlayStation.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Makes you wonder just how much money did Sega lose on Project Saturn from its initial inception in 1992 to 1998

 

[lostinblue]

I would still like to see that running on the Saturn.

Perhaps some day.

I didn't even know this existed, was that just a prototype befor getting moved to the Dreamcast?

I wouldn't say prototype as they had Shenmue 1 and 2 running on it. And some parts of the video are "Shenmue 3".

But it never released and it was unfinished/WIP, so beta.


EDIT: Aside from all the complexity, one big issue with Saturn development was available documentation and the dev kit software itself (SGL). Sega constantly kept documentation and the newer and better versions of their SGL libraries to themselves. Only towards the end of the generation did they open it up to other people. Too little too late.

NiGHTS into Dreams used SGL 2.x which was a big step forward at the time vertex manipulation and all.

Shenmue and Virtua Fighter 3 (both cancelled because Dreamcast was close to release) used SGL 3.0 and that was to be the final big jump, very close to the limit of what would be possible on the Saturn. To my knowledge there are no games released using these final dev kits though, so we have to believe what has been written, described or leaked with an added grain of salt.

Virtua Fighter 3 port was reportedly finished by AM2, just never released. Which is why the Dreamcast version conversion was done by Genki instead. (not as arcade perfect gameplay-wise than the AM2 saturn version would have been). Old description of that showcase here. (again, perhaps one day what Sega had running will leak out)

This is a good article on all that:

-> http://www.davidgamizjimenez.com/ingames/sega-saturn-to-the-limit-v/

List of SDK parts and revisions:

-> https://www.retroreversing.com/sega-saturn-sdk/

 

[Alexios]

Highlights for the new page, just the compilation, cba to go through the thread and pick and choose etc.


I would have played the shit out of Saturn Shenmue even if it ran at single digit fps if it was like the vid

VF3 Saturn sounds like fanfic, there were promos with CG and footage of the arcade game, that's it. Maybe people trashed VF3 as a DC port but to be honest it's not far behind the '96 arcade game which looked garish compared to modern modeling techniques, superior polycounts be damned.

Much like the VF port on Saturn got flack for being flawed as a port but even if the 1993 game had been ported perfectly people would have slammed Saturn's graphics just the same because, polycounts aside, the modeling technique was outdated, people expected textures by then and so on.

Vandal Hearts - Ushinawareta Kodai Bunmei is pretty damn nice. Not only is the original release a better version compared to the PS release - additional content and better graphics, but the english patch itself went far and beyond to improve the game as much as possible:

• Expanded the palette of treasure chests, crates, icons and menu frames.
• Increased the internal resolution of the game to 352×240 (original 320×224).
• Support for widescreen (you can switch on the fly from the game menu).
• Increased video resolution up to 320×196 (original 320×144).
• Supports 4 MB expansion card to speed up loading of level maps (almost double boost).
• Support for Gouraud shading for static lighting (glare from the light of torches, altars and pictograms).
• The size of the background images of the loading screens has been increased to 352×240 (original size 320×224).
• Restored the size of the rest of the background images (size 320×240 - as in the version for PS1).
• The PS1 script has been mostly ported over to this translation. But the script has been reviewed for accuracy and edited accordingly.

This a love project if i've ever seen one, they poured a lot of work and effort into this release making it far better than the PS version. It's also a really great game, would highly recommend. A no-brainer to have in your collection. I played around with Valhollian as well. Ain't feeling it. The translation is great and i respect the work ethic but i don't like the game. Feels like a low budget version of Shinning Force III, and the story isn't good.. at all. Wouldn't recommend it.

I really like how many projects saw completion in 2020 and 2021, the fanbase is mad dedicated to allow people access to the SEGA Saturn's japanese library of games.

But there are so many more still stuck because of the language barrier. For example, i'm contemplating putting effort into learning japanese just to experience Wachenroder, Terra Phantastica, Nanatsu Kaze no Shima Monogatari and Princess Crown. Any view on them would say they're fantastic games, and even by checking Youtube videos you can see that they do look amazing, but i can't fucking play them because i can't comprehend the language.

Wow, that's hugely extensive, those russian (?) Saturn guys rock. At least two of the games you wanna see translated (Wachenroder and Princess Crown) seem very likely to release some time (even if one of them has gotten delayed for ages it seems to be close to the finish line) so yay for you.

 

[Sephimoth]

Virtua Fighter 3 port was reportedly finished by AM2, just never released. Which is why the Dreamcast version conversion was done by Genki instead. (not as arcade perfect gameplay-wise than the AM2 saturn version would have been). Old description of that showcase here. (again, perhaps one day what Sega had running will leak out)

Would love to see that, hope it emerges one day

 

[xpresstuning]

Wow, that's hugely extensive, those russian (?) Saturn guys rock. At least two of the games you wanna see translated (Wachenroder and Princess Crown) seem very likely to release some time (even if one of them has gotten delayed for ages it seems to be close to the finish line) so yay for you.

Yeah, i just googled them both and i can't believe it. I'm gonna keep a close damn eye on them, thanks for the info.

 

[UnNamed]

I highly doubt there is a final version of VF3 somewhere.

I've read any type of rumor and speculation on this subject, and everytime something is missing. In other terms, they lack of the classic "smoking gun". In the last years I can summarize the main rumor about VF3:

-a port for 64X: a platform nobody seems to properly identify, probably because it doesn't exist since it was just a joke from Famitsu. The problem is no one have an idea on how this machine could work. Just "help calculations" was a bad idea since Saturn was already full of bottleneck and other shit without any other extra hardware. Port expansion or cartridge slot? I highly doubt it's the cardslot since the low bandwith and how ram expansions worked (from what I know). There is a reason why MegaCD and 32X do basically all the stuffs despite being "just" add-on. A 64X should have been probably more powerful than SS to work properly, too expensive. There is no way a VF3 port was made for a similar add-on, even if it was real.

-a Core Design port. Yes, I've read this somewhere, and frankly, it's an incredible rumor. VF3 outsourced is simply not credible. If we believe there was a port of VF3 at CD, at some point, someone should have seen something. But no, nothing. No rumor, no leak, no material after all these years. Also, I don't know how CD could do in developed better than Sega in that period.

-another port from any other external hardware or revision (saturn 1.5) from Real3d/3DFX/PowerVR: the same as 64X, no information at all, since Sega was already working on a proper next gen machine.

-An almost finished VF3 port on Saturn: slightly more credible, but with flaws. Since most of the appeal from VF3 is the complex interactive background, SS wasn't enough powerful to draw a scene similar to VF3. One or the other: a decent 3D background with poor 3D characters; 3D characters from VF1/2 but with 2D background.
3D background + physics/interaction + fully modeled characters + new movesets was just too much for a poor SS.

-Namie Amuro Dance Mix Vol1 as the proof VF3 existed on SS in some way: if this is a proof, its a very bad proof. Namie Amuro demo it's not complex in any way, it's a common 3d demo with digitalized images as texture. There is nothing incredible on that demo. Sonic R, Burning Rangers and Fighter Megamix with goraud shading, light sources, transparencies, are way more impressive, and they are full games.

In the end, I think there probably was some proof of concept on VF3 on Saturn, maybe using the ram card to help to store the geometry. But SS can't do miracles, and probably all they have was something with too many compromises to be a good port of VF3 on Saturn, and so they canned it for a next gen release.
Personally, I think all the work for a supposed VF3 on Saturn was put on Fighter's Megamix since VF characters have the VF3 moveset. F'sM is a good demo to show what Saturn was capable of considering the tech behind it, a very impressive and more credible game.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Rushed what? The launch?

The specs are overall better than the PS1 but it was to hard to develop for which resulted is PS1 having better versions of 3rd party games.

 

[Alexios]

Since most of the appeal from VF3 is the complex interactive background

Well, there are a few VF3 arenas that are basically flat. Getting the full game on Saturn would be sweet even if it lacked the multi layered/sloped/whatever stuff. It's not like anyone would expect Saturn to pull off Model 3, when it couldn't even do Model 2, and pan it for not doing that 1:1.

And maybe without the extra animations/calculations/whatever for the uneven arenas it'd be easier to replicate. Not that I think any of the rumours have credibility and the few screenshots look more like glitched emulation and/or fakes than anything else, but yeah, it may have worked...

Would have been a nice send off among other great games it got near the end of its life and maybe that would also have them give VF3 Dreamcast a bit more time to polish it up and make it a better port that would likely be unaffected by the game being also on the dead system anyway.

Just having the VF3 flat ground movesets with VF2 graphics or I guess Megamix graphics in higher resolution if possible would have been plenty for most I'm sure. As long as the 2D backgrounds were also made with care in aesthetics like only a few in Megamix and some in Last Bronx.

Edit: I've seen the Aoi reel on some Greek Saturn Magazine (or SEGA Power, whatever) disc, my jaw dropped ignorant as I was. Now I'm certain there's no way that thing was running on Saturn, or could evolve to a game with logic and more than one character, it looked like Saturn's FMV...

 

[UnNamed]

Well, there are a few VF3 arenas that are basically flat. Getting the full game on Saturn would be sweet even if it lacked the multi layered/sloped/whatever stuff. It's not like anyone would expect Saturn to pull off Model 3, when it couldn't even do Model 2, and pan it for not doing that 1:1.

The problem imho is, once you strip the 3D arena from VF3, you have Fighter's Megamix without the Megamix part. That's why I believe if there were tests on VF3 on SS, FM benefitted a lot from them.

For example, the metro stage in Last Bronx on SS, with its clever use of the infinite planes, have some similarities with the Sara's stage on VF3. But the feeling is different, it's not the same thing.

 

[Alexios]

Yeah, but without all the other Megamix fluff, maybe it'd have been a nicer just-VF3 package with all the effort on making the most for less content. Fewer but nicer 2D backgrounds, character textures/models, all VF3 characters/moves, other modes without the Vipers style.

And maybe it would actually be popular to play as many found the uneven 3D arena stuff sloppy so the series ditched it fast (repeated with Tekken 4). So it could be good for both gameplay and tech as it'd no longer need to cram all the extra animations & logic on Saturn.

On the other hand it might have been just as barebones as the DC port, I dunno. I guess that was often a problem with SEGA, not adding enough extra content for the ports of arcade games thinking their ace basics are enough to carry them. Sega Rally 2 is a big exception.

 

[Alexios]

Oh, wow, the mentioned Gungriffon II translation is already quite far along and has been released in alpha, pretty much all text is apparently already replaced and what's missing is to replace images and such that contain text and things for the 2 player link cable mode they can't test as of now.

Gungriffon II English Localized

Gungriffon II English Localized Alpha build v.0.97 (open alpha build) Gungriffon II Localization Team Members: Samuel "The SSG" Myles Text and image translation and localization Coding and implementation Anthony "Knigh0fDragon" Randazzo...

segaxtreme.net

1. Currently, 97% percent of written text within the game has been translated and replaced.
2. The only text that remains is that concerning the "2 Player" mode only accessible via the Saturn Link Cable. I, The SSG, do not have access to this cable at the moment, so I cannot ensure text is implemented properly.
3. Japanese that appears on screen outside of the chat boxes are not injected text, but rather images. This along with English audio, will be handled during the Beta phase of this project.
4. Please report any issues you may come across in the projects discord server. Join the Gungriffon II Translation / Localization Project Discord Server! This could include graphical issues with text (if you see text that looks like a bunch of squished up boxes, then that is untranslated text.), sound issues, or crashes.
5. While we are happy to release this alpha build for community testing, we ask that you do not distribute this build of the game. This includes pre-patched versions of the game. The Gungriffon II Localization Team does not in any way endorse pre-patched versions of the game, and we ask that you report them to us immediately.
6. Suit up, WW3 isn't gonna fight itself!

Now I hope someone also re-translates Gungriffon with the original Japanese story that was changed for the West, since II's story intersects with events set before and during the first game. I guess it's minor.

 

[nush]

I highly doubt there is a final version of VF3 somewhere.

I've read any type of rumor and speculation on this subject, and everytime something is missing. In other terms, they lack of the classic "smoking gun". In the last years I can summarize the main rumor about VF3:

-a port for 64X: a platform nobody seems to properly identify, probably because it doesn't exist since it was just a joke from Famitsu. The problem is no one have an idea on how this machine could work. Just "help calculations" was a bad idea since Saturn was already full of bottleneck and other shit without any other extra hardware. Port expansion or cartridge slot? I highly doubt it's the cardslot since the low bandwith and how ram expansions worked (from what I know). There is a reason why MegaCD and 32X do basically all the stuffs despite being "just" add-on. A 64X should have been probably more powerful than SS to work properly, too expensive. There is no way a VF3 port was made for a similar add-on, even if it was real.

-a Core Design port. Yes, I've read this somewhere, and frankly, it's an incredible rumor. VF3 outsourced is simply not credible. If we believe there was a port of VF3 at CD, at some point, someone should have seen something. But no, nothing. No rumor, no leak, no material after all these years. Also, I don't know how CD could do in developed better than Sega in that period.

-another port from any other external hardware or revision (saturn 1.5) from Real3d/3DFX/PowerVR: the same as 64X, no information at all, since Sega was already working on a proper next gen machine.

-An almost finished VF3 port on Saturn: slightly more credible, but with flaws. Since most of the appeal from VF3 is the complex interactive background, SS wasn't enough powerful to draw a scene similar to VF3. One or the other: a decent 3D background with poor 3D characters; 3D characters from VF1/2 but with 2D background.
3D background + physics/interaction + fully modeled characters + new movesets was just too much for a poor SS.

-Namie Amuro Dance Mix Vol1 as the proof VF3 existed on SS in some way: if this is a proof, its a very bad proof. Namie Amuro demo it's not complex in any way, it's a common 3d demo with digitalized images as texture. There is nothing incredible on that demo. Sonic R, Burning Rangers and Fighter Megamix with goraud shading, light sources, transparencies, are way more impressive, and they are full games.

In the end, I think there probably was some proof of concept on VF3 on Saturn, maybe using the ram card to help to store the geometry. But SS can't do miracles, and probably all they have was something with too many compromises to be a good port of VF3 on Saturn, and so they canned it for a next gen release.
Personally, I think all the work for a supposed VF3 on Saturn was put on Fighter's Megamix since VF characters have the VF3 moveset. F'sM is a good demo to show what Saturn was capable of considering the tech behind it, a very impressive and more credible game.

It existed alright, not complete because it was shelved as it would have taken away from the impact and sales boost of having it exclusive on the Dreamcast. There was a tiny clip of Aoi on a late night Saturn sizzle reel on British television, people saw it but nobody has found anyone that recorded that broadcast. It was on the Japanese Saturn release schedule for a long time until it was eventually canned. It was going to use a 3D accelerator cart, that wasn't going to be cost effective at all then it was moved to a software only solution.

I know 2 people that have seen it, one person was in no way allowed to show person 2 at all. To this day person 2, (and I respect the integrity of keeping that confidence) will tell you they never saw it. Person 2 still needs access person 1 provides. Maybe when they both retire or maybe when AM2 staff retire and in an uncharacteristic way for Japanese employees they spill the beans.

The vf3 fangirl is a highly unreliable source....

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

A short reminder that I wrote four articles about "Impressive 3D Sega Saturn Games" at Sega Saturn Shiro. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is over. Simply refer to those articles for reference.

 

[lostinblue]

I highly doubt there is a final version of VF3 somewhere.

Yeah, for these games developed but canceled "finished" is often a feature complete Beta that can be finished. Not the same as polished and ready to go. Probably a few months of QA are missing. At best. Worst case scenario, just a demo or an alpha who cleared some development goal post..

-An almost finished VF3 port on Saturn: slightly more credible, but with flaws. Since most of the appeal from VF3 is the complex interactive background, SS wasn't enough powerful to draw a scene similar to VF3. One or the other: a decent 3D background with poor 3D characters; 3D characters from VF1/2 but with 2D background.
3D background + physics/interaction + fully modeled characters + new movesets was just too much for a poor SS.
(...)
In the end, I think there probably was some proof of concept on VF3 on Saturn, maybe using the ram card to help to store the geometry. But SS can't do miracles, and probably all they have was something with too many compromises to be a good port of VF3 on Saturn, and so they canned it for a next gen release.

yes, in regards to the polycount claims, they are outright impossible.

Here's a list of Saturn Game polycounts:

-> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zV6z_esJjA_y_q0fb8BGW6_8I/edit#gid=1310604589

Last Bronx tops the list with 240k polygons per second measured, Fighters megamix sits at a cool 190k pps. And those numbers in the spreadsheet are VDP1+VDP2 total and double (quads are counted twice, as if they were 2 triangles/2 polygons).

500k and 750k polygons per second on the saturn is impossible. above 250k (using the polygon doubling figure because of quads as explained above) would be a major feat with compromises. These are not things uncommon to be said in the era though, and seeing Last Bronx is 60 fps, graphically Virtua Fighter 3 @ 30 fps could be said to appear as a ~500k polygons per second game as they could double geometry and if they introduced good "software culling" I could see them claiming 750k. But those are highly inflated. Even with all this, in reality numbers would be 1/3 or 1/4 of claimed, or less.

This is not incredibly likely though.

Personally, I think all the work for a supposed VF3 on Saturn was put on Fighter's Megamix since VF characters have the VF3 moveset. F'sM is a good demo to show what Saturn was capable of considering the tech behind it, a very impressive and more credible game.

I'm sure (without any sort of proof) that they put some work towards that after Fighters Megamix; VF3 came out in September 1996, Fighters Megamix came out on December 1996. Not enough time for a conversion unless they tried to do it alongside. I also doubt a title like Virtua Fighter 3 could have a 60 FPS goal on the Saturn, unlike Fighters Megamix.

But they overlapped and I'm sure VF3 was in the rear mirror for the features they were going for back then. Fact is Fighters Megamix pulls less polygons than Virtua Fighter 2, no doubt because of increased scene complexity and reliance on texturing, so I wouldn't expect a miracle here unless they halved framerate.

Fighters Megamix with roughly double the geometry per frame (in reality... very had to pull) and half the framerate is what I would expect.

Might as well dump these here:

- Saturn to the Limit (I)
- Saturn to the Limit (II) (where that spreadsheet came from)
- Saturn to the Limit (III)
- Saturn to the Limit (IV)
- Saturn to the Limit (V)

All of those articles are amazing as a deep dive.

 

[Thavash]

Question : How come the 4MB ram cart was never used to enhance a 3D game (as opposed to all the 2D fighters ) ?

We saw the results of the Expansion Pak on the N64 in terms of frame rate etc.

There was a rumour the port of VF3 might have used it but that was abandoned

 

[stranno]

Question : How come the 4MB ram cart was never used to enhance a 3D game (as opposed to all the 2D fighters ) ?

We saw the results of the Expansion Pak on the N64 in terms of frame rate etc.

There was a rumour the port of VF3 might have used it but that was abandoned

"All 2D fighters" is sorta stretch. There were very few games with support 4MB cart. Here's the full compatibility list:

List of Sega Saturn games that require an external cartridge - Satakore.com

www.satakore.com

I guess the bus sucked.

 

[SirTerry-T]

Yeah, for these games developed but canceled "finished" is often a feature complete Beta that can be finished. Not the same as polished and ready to go. Probably a few months of QA are missing. At best. Worst case scenario, just a demo or an alpha who cleared some development goal post..


yes, in regards to the polycount claims, they are outright impossible.

Here's a list of Saturn Game polycounts:

-> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zV6z_esJjA_y_q0fb8BGW6_8I/edit#gid=1310604589

Last Bronx tops the list with 240k polygons per second measured, Fighters megamix sits at a cool 190k pps. And those numbers in the spreadsheet are VDP1+VDP2 total and double (quads are counted twice, as if they were 2 triangles/2 polygons).

500k and 750k polygons per second on the saturn is impossible. above 250k (using the polygon doubling figure because of quads as explained above) would be a major feat with compromises. These are not things uncommon to be said in the era though, and seeing Last Bronx is 60 fps, graphically Virtua Fighter 3 @ 30 fps could be said to appear as a ~500k polygons per second game as they could double geometry and if they introduced good "software culling" I could see them claiming 750k. But those are highly inflated. Even with all this, in reality numbers would be 1/3 or 1/4 of claimed, or less.

This is not incredibly likely though.

I'm sure (without any sort of proof) that they put some work towards that after Fighters Megamix; VF3 came out in September 1996, Fighters Megamix came out on December 1996. Not enough time for a conversion unless they tried to do it alongside. I also doubt a title like Virtua Fighter 3 could have a 60 FPS goal on the Saturn, unlike Fighters Megamix.

But they overlapped and I'm sure VF3 was in the rear mirror for the features they were going for back then. Fact is Fighters Megamix pulls less polygons than Virtua Fighter 2, no doubt because of increased scene complexity and reliance on texturing, so I wouldn't expect a miracle here unless they halved framerate.

Fighters Megamix with roughly double the geometry per frame (in reality... very had to pull) and half the framerate is what I would expect.

Might as well dump these here:

- Saturn to the Limit (I)
- Saturn to the Limit (II) (where that spreadsheet came from)
- Saturn to the Limit (III)
- Saturn to the Limit (IV)
- Saturn to the Limit (V)

All of those articles are amazing as a deep dive.

I would have loved to have had a crack at working on some Saturn graphics, purely from a "puzzle solving" perspective of trying to get things working with all the quirks of the Saturn conspiring against you!

These days, though every polygon is treated as a tri when it's gets to an engines rendering setup, it's good practice as a 3d artist, especially a character one, to try and keep your topology in quads. Quads work better in 3d sculpting packages and sub-div modelling, and they are a lot better to work with if you are creating LOD models by hand.

Modelling with tris in mind was a bigger concern back in that generation where poly budgets were more impactful to game performance than they are now.

 

[cireza]

We saw the results of the Expansion Pak on the N64 in terms of frame rate etc.

I don't think that the console was lacking in RAM for 3D games. You quickly fill up the ram with 2D sprites as you have so many animations, but for 3D ? No need.

I don't really see a link between more RAM and better framerate, unless if the loss is triggered by the fact that the CPU is busy reading data all the time, I suppose. Might be true for cartridges, but CD speed is going to be the botlleneck in this instance, so I really don't see more RAM improving framerate.

 

[lostinblue]

Question : How come the 4MB ram cart was never used to enhance a 3D game (as opposed to all the 2D fighters ) ?

We saw the results of the Expansion Pak on the N64 in terms of frame rate etc.

The expansion pack on N64 didn't really increase framerate in most cases.

It allowed for bigger level complexity (and/or texture and game resolution) but that still often meant lower framerate.

The only games where it improves framerates are:

- Duke Nukem: Zero Hour (if you pick low res mode)
- Quake II
- San Francisco Rush 2049
- Spider Man
- Star Wars: Episode 1 Racer (if you pick low res mode)
- Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 1/2/3

6 out of 63 titles.

Slightly offtopic too (but more ontopic than the rest of the post), but Expansion Pak actually updated two things memory-wise, the work RAM and the video RAM. the 2 RDRAM chips present on base N64 already amounted 4.5 MB instead of the listed 4 MB, and the expansion pack updated the total to 9 MB instead of 8. That extra 512 KB on base console (1 MB with expansion pack) was video RAM, which is why high resolution modes were possible only with expansion pak. You could pull a game with a high res mode that still ran within the 4 MB RAM limit because the reason you could pull high res wasn't due to more work ram.

Majora Mask is a good example, motion blur and the like were using the extra video ram, but more characters and more texture variety on screen were using more work ram. Perfect dark too, high res mode was using the extra video RAM (and making the game slower due to bottlenecks) but the single player levels were only running in the first place because of the added work RAM.

Anyway and to round it all up, on the Saturn the ram cart could only provide work RAM, video RAM would stay the same. It also wouldn't be on the same bank as the rest of the RAM unlike on the N64. Internal work ram had a 114.5 MB/s bandwidth while RAM carts had 44 MB/s to 50 MB/s. That was a speed similar to the Sega Saturn Audio RAM, perhaps with higher latency.

Probably good for pre-fetchcaching/reduce CD access latency but not much else... Which is why it was mostly used for 2D Fighters and not for 3D games where using it as cache would not be as straightforward. The Saturn was already very complicated as it was.

 

[Thavash]

The expansion pack on N64 didn't really increase framerate in most cases.

It allowed for bigger level complexity (and/or texture and game resolution) but that still often meant lower framerate.

The only games where it improves framerates are:

- Duke Nukem: Zero Hour (if you pick low res mode)
- Quake II
- San Francisco Rush 2049
- Spider Man
- Star Wars: Episode 1 Racer (if you pick low res mode)
- Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 1/2/3

6 out of 63 titles.

Slightly offtopic too (but more ontopic than the rest of the post), but Expansion Pak actually updated two things memory-wise, the work RAM and the video RAM. the 2 RDRAM chips present on base N64 already amounted 4.5 MB instead of the listed 4 MB, and the expansion pack updated the total to 9 MB instead of 8. That extra 512 KB on base console (1 MB with expansion pack) was video RAM, which is why high resolution modes were possible only with expansion pak. You could pull a game with a high res mode that still ran within the 4 MB RAM limit because the reason you could pull high res wasn't due to more work ram.

Majora Mask is a good example, motion blur and the like were using the extra video ram, but more characters and more texture variety on screen were using more work ram. Perfect dark too, high res mode was using the extra video RAM (and making the game slower due to bottlenecks) but the single player levels were only running in the first place because of the added work RAM.

Anyway and to round it all up, on the Saturn the ram cart could only provide work RAM, video RAM would stay the same. It also wouldn't be on the same bank as the rest of the RAM unlike on the N64. Internal work ram had a 114.5 MB/s bandwidth while RAM carts had 44 MB/s to 50 MB/s. That was a speed similar to the Sega Saturn Audio RAM, perhaps with higher latency.

Probably good for pre-fetchcaching/reduce CD access latency but not much else... Which is why it was mostly used for 2D Fighters and not for 3D games where using it as cache would not be as straightforward. The Saturn was already very complicated as it was.

This is the answer i was looking for (for like 20 years)

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

probably the most impressive work on the Saturn. Kinda a bummer Sega didn't further invest in Lobotomy Studios.

 

[UnNamed]

From the creator of Sonic Z-treme and Hellslave, this is truly impressive. In my opinion, beyond what PSX did with Quake2:

 

[cireza]

From the creator of Sonic Z-treme and Hellslave, this is truly impressive. In my opinion, beyond what PSX did with Quake2:

This looks like Quake but it handles wider areas at a smoother framerate. Very impressive.

 

[Alexios]

The (superior) Saturn version of Silhouette Mirage has been fan translated. The effort's had many releases recently but finally is fully playable start to finish now.

Silhouette Mirage - English Patch

A translation of Treasure's 1997 masterpiece, Silhouette Mirage, into english using the PS1 Working Designs script. Current version: 0.99b (Release Edition) The current version makes the game fully playable in english. Patch using...

segaxtreme.net

I think I read somewhere the goal is to eventually re-translate the game faithfully to its Japanese version, for now it's using the PS port's Working Designs script.

Update: its retranslation happened and we also got Sakura Wars 2, D&D: Tower of Doom, Puyo Puyo Dungeon, a vastly improved Princess Crown & much more!

GitHub - eadmaster/pcrown: Princess Crown Translation GPL Edition

Princess Crown Translation GPL Edition. Contribute to eadmaster/pcrown development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Sakura Wars 2 English Translation

IMPORTANT NOTE WHEN RIPPING YOUR OWN DISC: It appears that ISO Buster does not provide a Cue Sheet when you follow the instructions below. You will need a Cue Sheet in order to patch this kind of image. You can create a Cue Sheet by using the...

segaxtreme.net

Dungeons & Dragons Tower of Doom English Patch

English patch for Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom Sega Saturn. Patch created using Delta Patcher 3.1.5 Dump from Redump. I only tested it with Fenrir ODE (Real Saturn) and with Kronos Emulator. For those who test/play using the Saturn CD-Drive...

segaxtreme.net

RHDI

Classic game mods and resources

romhack.ing

 

[Team Andromeda]

The (superior) Saturn version of Silhouette Mirage has been fan translated. The effort's had many releases recently but finally is fully playable start to finish now.

Silhouette Mirage - English Patch - Updates

I think I read somewhere the goal is to eventually re-translate the game faithfully to its Japanese version, for now it's using the PS port's Working Designs script.

Such a shame Bernie had that pointless fight with WD.

I loved their translations so glad we got it now mind

 

[Alexios]

Another impressive Sega Saturn homebrew demo given the (lack of) tools folks have to work with. Not as crazy as the Unreal demake demo but it's just a wholly different thing, I wouldn't do it dirty comparing specific things like say, the lighting of the former that this clearly isn't focusing on (yet).

Impressive WIP Homebrew Gets First Update Since 2021!

Noah and the Poohloudies just got its first update (and it’s a BIG one) in over four years, after hitting a dead end with the previous game engine. This time around, it’s running on a c…

www.segasaturnshiro.com

With animations and all kinds of effects it's on its way to be a fully featured engine, not just a limited tech demo. In a game using it I'd opt to save some polygons making the diamond pick ups 2D like in Croc rather than Spyro 3D style and try and improve other stuff in equally/less intensive ways.

 

[Alexios]

Video on F1 Challenge. Anyone mentioning disabling the mirror for fps played the game at least.

Some recent Sega Sundays (great stuff but mostly PAL so of lesser fps/speed etc., gosh the 90s sucked for us bad, lol, the based Dreamcast finally brought us PAL 60 gaming as almost-standard).

Hang-On GP, like F1 Challenge, is pretty great for 95. Idk why Sega didn't iterate more, every project seemed to be redoing things from scratch (except the numerous Daytona redos). A refined, more exciting sequel could probably top Manx TT. Imagine a Sega Rally S2 (Saturn 2, Season 2, whatever meaning) with a 10 year championship full of new tracks like the Dreamcast Sega Rally 2 got and/or other additions, such titles could probably have a quicker turn out and compete with all the Namco sequels and generally better third party support of the PS. Or not, we'd enjoy them regardless
​

 

[Alexios]

​

 

[RAIDEN1]

​

I was thinking of posting the latest video here, from Sega Lord X..

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Stellar Assault SS



Shinrei Jusatsushi Tarōmaru



Last Bronx



Dead or Alive



Quake

Holy shit! I totally forgot that Saturn had Quake for console and that I owned that and held onto it for ages. No idea what I did with all my Saturn shit

 

[Alexios]

I'd seen footage of this hack recently and thought how it doesn't look like it runs all that great still but wow, what a huge difference to the original release, Idk how they fucked it up that badly (yeah I know the history of Carmack disapproving of the much faster hardware accelerated version etc.).

Nice to have this fix alongside the Dreamcast Doom 64. Even the title screen is struggling to render in the original, come on ​

 

[Alexios]

Shinrei Jusatsushi Tarōmaru has been translated into English (as Psychic Killer Taromaru). It seems like a low key release at the moment (despite the game being one of the rarest, most expensive for the Saturn these days), I can't find footage of anyone playing it yet so here's a video in Japanese instead. This is a very unique and cool game with some awesome level and boss visuals, just imagine if Castlevania or something had taken full advantage of 32 bit systems in the same way back then (instead of be like SNES++ with some extra effects/polygons here & there - which was still great).​

GitHub - ExxistanceDC/Shinrei-Jusatsushi-Taromaru-English-Translation: An English patch for the Sega Saturn Japanese exclusive, Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru

An English patch for the Sega Saturn Japanese exclusive, Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru - ExxistanceDC/Shinrei-Jusatsushi-Taromaru-English-Translation

github.com

Psychic Killer Taromaru English Patch

Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru (Psychic Killer Taromaru) English Patch An English patch for the Sega Saturn Japanese exclusive, Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru. Also known as Psychic Assassin Taromaru, Psychic Warlock Assassin Taromaru, Divine Spirit...

segaxtreme.net

​

Granted it's smaller in scope than a Metroidvania that would need a huge budget to have all those areas and enemies up to this level (it's not like Konami couldn't afford it anyway) but hey, they could have had a Classicvania (or three, then use their tech/assets for a Metroidvania) alongside SOTN...

 

[Alexios]

Found a neat sports game on Saturn, never seen it before (or completely forgot about it), it looks pretty great if you ask me (wikipedia claims mixed to negative response, maybe that's in part because of the PS version's framerate as on Saturn it seems to have been Japan only?).
​

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Found another neat sports game on Saturn, never seen it before (or completely forgot about it), it looks pretty great if you ask me (even though wikipedia says it had mixed to negative response, maybe that's mostly the PS version's framerate?).
​

Saturn version looks great! PS version's framerate is so low, the ball dissapears.

 

[Alexios]

Saturn version looks great! PS version's framerate is so low, the ball dissapears.

All Star Tennis 99 and 2000 seem to be successors. By Ubisoft, very similar, but going for more realistic courts and real players. For both N64 and PSX and PSX only respectively. They don't seem much better on the framerate after ditching Saturn.

 

[Alexios]

Found a nice CRT shader tuned to Saturn (but if you can't get this working any included with RetroArch CRT shader that is marked NTSC or composite should make mesh transparencies look much nicer than raw pixels/close to what they looked like on a CRT, with a trippy rainbow effect on pause).

It works for 3D and 2D games, Sega Rally is visible at the timestamp above, Mega Man X4 with those otherwise obviously meshed searchlights fixed up @ 3:28 for big examples. It (as the others I mention) works wonders in stuff like Virtual On too. In WipEout XL it's a bit less successful somehow.​

 

[Alexios]

Reiterating some of the multiplatform 3D games that are pretty impressive on the system, still.

They don't hold a candle to some exclusives/firsts but are still pretty cool/worth playing/seeing.
​

 

[Alexios]

This might have been an easy/cool port to Saturn, it's an ST-V arcade football (soccer) game with special moves like Captain Tsubasa, maybe analogous to the NFL Blitz games (but less beating the shit out of people as it's not American "football").

Some pretty authentic animations for the era even though it's not going for realism. I guess field graphics are simpler to maintain 60fps. It's not perfectly emulated here (mame instead of an ST-V emulator) but it was hard to find decent gameplay.​

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

This might have been an easy/cool port to Saturn, it's an ST-V arcade football (soccer) game with special moves like Captain Tsubasa, maybe analogous to the NFL Blitz games (but less beating the shit out of people as it's not American "football").

Some pretty authentic animations for the era even though it's not going for realism. I guess field graphics are simpler to maintain 60fps. It's not perfectly emulated here (mame instead of an ST-V emulator) but it was hard to find decent gameplay.​

Go look at Tecmo's J. League Go Go Goal to see Sega Saturn polygon graphics pushed to their limit. That game could pass for a budget Dreamcast title. It's absolutely stunning.

The gameplay? Well...mumble, mumble. It's definitely an arcade-style soccer title, and the computer is a ruthless killing machine, so human multiplayer is required to really crack this one wide open. But there's no question it ranks among the finest 3D poly visuals on the system, or for Generation Five.

 

[Alexios]

Yeah I'd say they look quite similar but maybe a bit better refined/animated in that ST-V game as it seems to have been released a bit later and they obviously embraced the arcade style even more with those special moves and effects for them.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Saturn version looks great! PS version's framerate is so low, the ball disappears.

Saturn version is great and better than the PS1 version, shame it was another Saturn game that only came out in Japan

 

[Alexios]

Still hoping to play Soldnerschild (and Wachenroder too) some day, whether its Saturn version or the later PlayStation port gets fan translated. Koei did a pretty good effort here for such an early SRPG of theirs. The large troop battles look questionable compared to Dragon Force but the rest of the game shows some nice JRPG-ness with the Castlevania artist's portraits/art, pre-rendered backgrounds, well animated character models and neat combat shenanigans between I imagine lead characters in more standard JRPG fashion than the army battles. It looks a lot like Square RPGs like Parasite Eve and other post-FFVII games. So much so I'd be sure they were inspired by this, especially for how the standard gameplay models theatrically move and interact, if it wasn't for the fact Parasite Eve released around the same time, some months later, so they couldn't have made it after seeing this.

 

[Alexios]

Found a nice CRT shader tuned to Saturn (but if you can't get this working any included with RetroArch CRT shader that is marked NTSC or composite should make mesh transparencies look much nicer than raw pixels/close to what they looked like on a CRT, with a trippy rainbow effect on pause).

It works for 3D and 2D games, Sega Rally is visible at the timestamp above, Mega Man X4 with those otherwise obviously meshed searchlights fixed up @ 3:28 for big examples. It (as the others I mention) works wonders in stuff like Virtual On too. In WipEout XL it's a bit less successful somehow.​

Here's some real CRT footage to see it's not the shader/emulator overcompensating or modifying anything to fix it. Sadly other footage he has for games like Sega Rally is much older so it's not as nice quality but you can still see this. Check them cop car windows:

It's true other connection types wouldn't do this, devs kept that in mind hence things like the intro missing a windshield before the bullets fly to show characters in the car clear to all players. The notorious Tunnel B1, not as nice footage but it sure beats raw pixels:

 

[Alexios]

A screenshot for those who don't wanna watch a video looking for transparency, its mesh is 100% invisible (mind the mighty Model 2 also only did mesh transparency and did some things different, like the missing windshield it's only a frame on the door window):

 

[Alexios]

I just realised AMOK has split screen co-op for its campaign. That's pretty impressive. It's more arcadey than I like mechs but I like the look of that voxel engine, I wish we got more such games (and wish it had a cockpit camera). Maybe conventional VDP2 terrain has great draw distance but 3D objects using that probably pop-in similarly in both cases so it's not always a huge advantage and this method means the ground doesn't have to be flat or waste polygons to make it uneven. I can't find footage of anyone playing it seriously in 2 player to know if the performance goes to shit.


The draw distance sort of works more when you're underwater (no clue if many later missions are, I've not gone far) but it's fine for the type of game this is regardless. At least stuff generally also seem to come into view smoothly, smoother than in most fully polygonal games on the Saturn. How cool would it be to have gotten some Saturn Treasures of the Deep or Archimedean Dynasty style game with this sort of look but more involved game design and control schemes? Or even just a normal mech game to rival the likes of Gungriffon and Gundam, there are never enough of those. This thing throws waaaaay too many enemies at you (I guess that's why most types are sprite based, others appear polygonal) so it can feel repetitive but hey, you can play just one mission at a time and cleanse your palate with some other awesome Saturn games inbetween.

I found some coop footage. They can't go past its first real mission & keep killing each other but the video is good enough to show the feature's rather solid performance!

But it's not PlayStation triangles so like VDP2 floors/skies/backgrounds/effects in 3D games, voxels don't count & games that don't chart suck/good games always chart

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

A screenshot for those who don't wanna watch a video looking for transparency, its mesh is 100% invisible (mind the mighty Model 2 also only did mesh transparency and did some things different, like the missing windshield it's only a frame on the door window):

Sega fans really need to get over the "mesh transparency" issue. It's no longer a thing. Nintendo Switch 2 games use mesh transparencies. This ancient debate is officially over.

Either make your peace with it or use composite video cables. Videogames are meant to be played and enjoyed.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Mesh transparent effects were an issue for SEGA on Model 1, Model 2, Sega Saturn and even the Mega Drive, which lacked Snes style transparent effects or colour laying if you will. So it seemed it wasn't a thing SEGA engineers looked to focus on. So have done better on Sega Saturn mind given how the 3DO even with it's quads did wonderful 3D transparent effects

 

[Alexios]

I found some decent player footage of Touge 2, the game tends to look awful with bad players bouncing all over the tight tracks. It lacks in areas like the camera, controls, certain effects (the rain is hilarious and only kinda works in certain tracks conditions), but what they get right is so right. The first game also looks pretty damn nice with a lower but stable framerate and colorful cartoony visuals with some great vistas of its own.

​

 

[Alexios]

Sigh.