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NA + Europe hardware installed base

Grooski

Banned
jedimike said:
I think they stuffed retailers to get as close to projected fiscal year numbers as they could. Microsoft did this a couple years ago and I swear they had nearly 4 million units sitting at retailers. The next two quarters showed terrible sales even though the sales were steady for NPD.

Sales for Sony in previous quarter were as strong as Microsoft and were down YoY. Either they both stuffing are or they're not.

Danthrax said:
North America = the United States and Canada. Also, these numbers are partially from ChartTrack, which lists Australian numbers.

if you really think significant numbers of consoles are sold in Central/South America, Russia, Africa, Asia and the Middle East, then... well I have a bridge to sell you.

You are right on Canada, but Australia, while reporting to ChartTrack does not fall into Europe.

6-7 mill discrepancy in the rest of the world figures? You explain it.

Like I said, I'm not arguing about the figures, I think its weird that Activision has released them like they have thats all... Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist at heart?:D
 

xbhaskarx

Member
Grooski said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Bobby was justifying his recent criticism of Sony internally by releasing these figures.

He has to justify his criticism of Sony internally? Why wouldn't everyone "internally" already know how Activision was doing on the PS3 relative to the other consoles?
And why would any message targeted "internally" be released externally, via earnings reports?
 

dolemite

Member
Grooski said:
Oh come on!

I believe the war of words between Sony and Acti goes a lot deeper at board level.
If Activision really wanted to do that they would just report the US NPD figures.
 

Grooski

Banned
xbhaskarx said:
He has to justify his criticism of Sony internally? Why wouldn't everyone "internally" already know how Activision was doing on the PS3 relative to the other consoles?
And why would any message targeted "internally" be released externally, via earnings reports?

Board politics. Public warning without the official words? Maybe Bobby was serious? Maybe I've seen too many espionage movies???

You know that I'm secretly hoping for an almighty public blowup between the two for the epicness of it all?? The threads in it at GAF would be popcorn worthy.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
So the PS3 is not really closing the gap? I always thought the initial gap of 4 million 360's was decreasing instead of increasing. :/
 
godhandiscen said:
So the PS3 is not really closing the gap? I always thought the initial gap of 4 million 360's was decreasing instead of increasing. :/
The initial gap was around 7.0 - 7.5 million. They aren't closing it by any means, but it hasn't gotten much wider, either.
 
Grooski said:
Board politics. Public warning without the official words? Maybe Bobby was serious? Maybe I've seen too many espionage movies???

You know that I'm secretly hoping for an almighty public blowup between the two for the epicness of it all?? The threads in it at GAF would be popcorn worthy.

I dunno, even I might pause at killing off the PS3 just for an entertaining GAF thread.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Grooski said:
You are right on Canada, but Australia, while reporting to ChartTrack does not fall into Europe.

I thought it was.

Grooski said:
6-7 mill discrepancy in the rest of the world figures? You explain it.

[shrug] maybe most of those are just sitting in warehouses, yet to be sold? I just can't imagine the other territories outside NA, Europe and Japan buying 6 or 7 million PS3s. It seems too high, but I guess it's technically possible.
 

KongRudi

Banned
Taurus said:
So what data is missing to get worldwide numbers? Add Media-create and we have Japan, others? Is Australia counted there?

--8<-- http://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.jsp?c=p/software/euro/index.jsp --8<--
Chart-Track and GfK are now collaborating to produce reports on the European Leisure Software market, through a sample of more than 12,000 retail outlets across Europe.

The European countries covered for this retail tracking project are:
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, The Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the UK.
--8<--

Chart-Track and GfK tracking retail stores in some of western Europe, not sure what kind of stores are covered.
I think they only release hardware numbers for UK for their subscribers tough, maybe Activision got a different deal. :-/
NPD is USA.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Segata Sanshiro said:
The initial gap was around 7.0 - 7.5 million. They aren't closing it by any means, but it hasn't gotten much wider, either.
So the 360 sold 7.5 worldwide in its first year? Any proof of this?
 
godhandiscen said:
So the 360 sold 7.5 worldwide in its first year? Any proof of this?

They claimed a shipped total of 10 million at the end of 06, and evidence points that at least 3 million of that was channel stuffing. So it's somewhere around there.
 
godhandiscen said:
So the 360 sold 7.5 worldwide in its first year? Any proof of this?
NPD numbers + MC numbers + cautious guessing about Europe based on what little data leaked out + a little extra chocolate syrup on top to account for the MASSIVE South American and Russian markets.

The guess work is why I put a half million margin of error in there.
 

dolemite

Member
Arpharmd B said:
They claimed a shipped total of 10 million at the end of 06, and evidence points that at least 3 million of that was channel stuffing. So it's somewhere around there.
End of 2006 is actually 1 year + 1 month (December) of sales. The year 1 shipped number was more around 7-8 million. I'm sure their Q2 2007 statement has the exact number.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
NPD numbers + MC numbers + cautious guessing about Europe based on what little data leaked out + a little extra chocolate syrup on top to account for the MASSIVE South American and Russian markets.
South America? I thought all they bought down there were Sega Master Systems.
 

CTLance

Member
Interesting numbers. Thanks for posting them.

Also thanks for the awesome charts flashback. Aw jeez, the memories. :D
 

Emotions

Member
Aaron Strife said:
South America? I thought all they bought down there were Sega Master Systems.

Far from it. That is only Brazil and Brazil does no equal South America.
Wii and DS are quite popular around here and there's a huge market for all the consoles + DS...PSP is the least popular down here. Stores rarely carry new PSP games anymore aside from the big or couple of first party releases.
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
TTP said:
Just kidding for dramatic effect. Not sure I would have survived some of those debates in a real life environment tho :lol
I KILL YOU!

*Note, the above is shtick.

Anyway, if these threads show one thing, it's how completely fucking wrong those "analysts" were at the start of this gen. Has any of the idiots from Screen Digest actually came out and tried to defend their predictions now they have turned out to be completely wrong?

Also, that iSuppli graph, "PS3 is so awesome it will delete 360s and Wiis Cybermen style until it reaches its goal of victory!"

..

Oops.
 

Xavien

Member
So... now that the Wii market is bigger than the HD market, it seems publishers/developers have no excuse not to put games on the system... (and actually save money, for not having develop on 2 systems and not have to create HD quality assets)

Now that this pretext is out of the way we can see what publishers and developers really think of the Wii.
 

CTLance

Member
Xavien said:
So... now that the Wii market is bigger than the HD market, it seems publishers/developers have no excuse not to put games on the system... (and actually save money, for not having develop on 2 systems and not have to create HD quality assets).
I tap "gaming PC" for 3 black mana and use "HD 3rd party sales" to inflict 10 damage (with trample) on your argument.

Honestly, they will support whatever platform they want. PR, marketshare, or profits do not figure into that.
 

doicare

Member
Xavien said:
So... now that the Wii market is bigger than the HD market

Yeeeeeaaaaah...all those people who think that the numbers on the front page are 100% accurate are wrong because they do not truely cover total worldwide sales. Canadian, south american, asian and some smaller european countries are not included in that data so that means millions of console and handheld sales are missing. The only true numbers that are out their are the shipped numbers from the manufacturers themselves and they are:

52.62m wii
31.40m 360
23.83m ps3

So HD consoles 55.23m > 52.62m wii
 

donny2112

Member
Danthrax said:
[shrug] maybe most of those are just sitting in warehouses, yet to be sold? I just can't imagine the other territories outside NA, Europe and Japan buying 6 or 7 million PS3s. It seems too high, but I guess it's technically possible.

Just to chime in, but my estimates through the end of June worldwide have PS3 and 360 both with about 3 million unsold consoles and Wii at 4 million unsold consoles worldwide. I keep track of that comparison as a sanity check. For the YTD, PS3 and 360 have both reduced unsold stock a little by my estimates, whereas Wii has skyrocketed up. Just what you'd expect with a sudden decrease in worldwide demand for the Wii.

Take that for what it's worth. *shrugs*
 

DCharlie

Banned
actually, i think the "oh HD > Wii" is somewhat relevant but not in the fanboyish way.

The Wii is seen as the undisputed sales juggernaut in terms of hardware but the plain truth is that there is a HD market that is just as large (at least for now) if companies make multiplatform products.

Given the Wii seems to be incredibly random in terms of what sells and what doesn't, then i'd like to think that the fact that there IS still a good sized traditional base of "gamers" means that we don't end up down alternate control alley (natal and S-wand pending :/ )
 

Karma

Banned
godhandiscen said:
So the 360 sold 7.5 worldwide in its first year? Any proof of this?

They sold only 2.9 Million in the US the first 12 months. Japan was less than 200k. Europe no idea but I am sure far fewer than US.
 

Xavien

Member
doicare said:
Yeeeeeaaaaah...all those people who think that the numbers on the front page are 100% accurate are wrong because they do not truely cover total worldwide sales. Canadian, south american, asian and some smaller european countries are not included in that data so that means millions of console and handheld sales are missing. The only true numbers that are out their are the shipped numbers from the manufacturers themselves and they are:

52.62m wii
31.40m 360
23.83m ps3

So HD consoles 55.23m > 52.62m wii

OK, even if we continue with shipped vs sold to customers (which is far more relevant when it comes to software and publishers). 2.6m difference between the two worldwide, with colour, price and software cards yet to play. There's just no-way that HD is going to have a greater installed base vs Wii by the end of this generation.
 
doicare said:
So HD consoles 55.23m > 52.62m wii
So the combined market force of two consoles from enormous corporations can barely beat out a system from a relatively small Japanese company with a dumb name and controller?

Welp, I guess that's it for Wii.

Emotions said:
Far from it. That is only Brazil and Brazil does no equal South America.
Wii and DS are quite popular around here and there's a huge market for all the consoles + DS...PSP is the least popular down here. Stores rarely carry new PSP games anymore aside from the big or couple of first party releases.
I have learned much today.
 

doicare

Member
Xavien said:
OK, even if we continue with shipped vs sold to customers (which is far more relevant when it comes to software and publishers). 2.6m difference between the two worldwide, with colour, price and software cards yet to play. There's just no-way that HD is going to have a greater installed base vs Wii by the end of this generation.
Did you miss the part where i pointed out the sold to customer numbers are incomplete and their for aren't as useful as the shipped numbers that cover everything? But regardless, in the real world it is far more likely that the sold to consumer numbers are hd consoles > wii as well. New colours will do very little in the grand scheme of things, price drops will do more for the ps3 and to a lesser extent the 360 than the wii and in terms of established franchises that are still yet to be released both the 360 and ps3 have more to come than the wii does so saying their's just no way that hd consoles are going to have a greater install base is a little wishful thinking. This christmas will be a very good indicator of how things are going to turn out, so stay tuned.

Aaron Strife said:
So the combined market force of two consoles from enormous corporations can barely beat out a system from a relatively small Japanese company with a dumb name and controller?

Welp, I guess that's it for Wii.
You said it, not me...
 
WhiteAce said:
actually, i think the "oh HD > Wii" is somewhat relevant but not in the fanboyish way.

The Wii is seen as the undisputed sales juggernaut in terms of hardware but the plain truth is that there is a HD market that is just as large (at least for now) if companies make multiplatform products.

Of course the unstated corrollorary to that, is that not making Wii ports of HD only games is automatically losing 50% of potential revenue for any given product.

It is still literally amazing to me how poorly third parties have treated the Wii to date.
 
doicare said:
52.62m wii
31.40m 360
23.83m ps3

So HD consoles 55.23m > 52.62m wii


Yeah Wii won the console war of the three, but Wii vs. PS360 is a battle that's worth following. I think PS360 will still be leading in 2012 but we'll see.
 

Taurus

Member
TTP said:
I've never seen even the most hardcore Sony fan predicting PS3 overtaking the Wii.
JoJo13 said:
It depends on a lot of factors, but I see this holiday season looking something like this:

America:

A price cut to $299 will likely result in sales about on par with the 360 or slightly ahead. When the PS3 only cost $50 more than the Xbox 360 premium back in early 2008, it was consistently outselling it slightly. With the PS3 priced at the same price as an Xbox 360 premium this fall, I can see it outselling the 360 by an even better margin. There's not a whole lot Microsoft can do to counter this, either. Sure, they can bundle and reshuffle SKUs, but I don't expect any real price drops to the system. Their software lineup is good for current 360 owners, but when it comes to new buyers the PS3 will appear as a much better deal overall.

Even with a price cut on the PS3 (and no price cut on the Wii), the Wii will edge out the PS3 this holiday season in the US. However, it could be closer than we all think if the Wii continues its slide and new software fails to induce sales like Mario Kart or Wii Fit did last year.

The PS3 has a good software lineup this fall in the US, but Sony won't have a mega blockbuster exclusive that sells multiple millions in the US alone. GT5, if it releases, may have a shot at that, but I believe this is GT's weakest market, and consequently the market that GT will face the largest competition from Forza 3.

In summary: Wii > PS3 >= 360

Europe:

Europe is a different animal entirely. If the UK sales figures are accurate, then the 360 has outsold the Wii in the first half of this year...and substantially so (by 300k, IIRC). The Wii has appeared to drop considerably in this region, while 360 sales have remained high. This is good news for Sony because if they drop the price and release GT5, then they should easily push a LOT of units in the UK and mainland Europe, and unless the Wii has a dramatic shift in the coming months, it'll oddly enough be the system that sells the least.

Software wise, GT5 is a gigantic seller in Europe. It's GT's strongest market and it will push systems. There's also the fact that the PS3/360 pricing disparity is larger in Europe than anywhere else, I believe, so when Sony moves on price then they will have a huge momentum shift in the region.

In summary: PS3 > 360 > Wii

Strange turn of events indeed if this comes true...it'll be like the inverse of the start of this generation.

Japan:

Depending on software releases, Sony could see the PS3 well above the Wii for the holiday season. If GT5 and FFXIII release, then there's no question the PS3 will consistently outsell the Wii even if it did not receive a price cut. Earlier this year the PS3 was doing just that in Japan alongside the help of key software releases. GT5 and FFXIII are bigger releases than anything they had earlier this year. WITH a price cut, and a new hardware revision, I think the divide will be fairly large.

In summary:

PS3 > Wii >>> 360


Overall:

This prediction is based upon a number of key assumptions; namely that the PS3 receives a $100 price drop to $299 alongside the Slim model and that supply is not considerably restrained. If the price drop is less, and/or GT5 doesn't release, then the impact will lessen depending on the region. However, it seems very likely at this point that Sony will target the $299 price.

If Sony can keep up plentiful supply of PS3 Slim units, then it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them capture 2 markets this holiday season (Japan and Europe), while trailing behind the Wii in the third (USA). Overall, the numbers could be quite comparable (worldwide) to what the Wii sells and it may even manage to outsell the Wii, as crazy as that may sound. But Sony will ultimately have a very strong Holiday season and see a large momentum shift in their favor.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16994469&postcount=527
 

Taurus

Member
perfectchaos007 said:
Yeah Wii won the console war of the three, but Wii vs. PS360 is a battle that's worth following. I think PS360 will still be leading in 2012 but we'll see.
Should we add PC too? As in Wii vs. PS360PC?
 

tass0

Banned
So. if there are 24 million PS3's sold, and 30 million 360s shipped.. the difference the between the two should be around 5 million? Not bad.
 

Taurus

Member
tass0 said:
So. if there are 24 million PS3's sold, and 30 million 360s shipped.. the difference the between the two should be around 5 million? Not bad.
Huh? Where did you get those numbers? On the first page people just said the difference is about 9 million.
 

Taurus

Member
Parl said:
Though when was this written? FFXIII isn't coming this year.
It was written 8 hours ago, check the link. :)

doicare said:
Yeeeeeaaaaah...all those people who think that the numbers on the front page are 100% accurate are wrong because they do not truely cover total worldwide sales. Canadian, south american, asian and some smaller european countries are not included in that data so that means millions of console and handheld sales are missing. The only true numbers that are out their are the shipped numbers from the manufacturers themselves and they are:

52.62m wii
31.40m 360
23.83m ps3

So HD consoles 55.23m > 52.62m wii
If you know what data is missing then you should name the countries since we have official data almost all over the world. We have NPD from Canada, and what smaller European countries are actually missing there?
 

Haunted

Member
Stoney Mason said:
11t78dv.jpg
Fuck, those are some damning PS3 numbers.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Taurus said:
If you know what data is missing then you should name the countries since we have official data almost all over the world. We have NPD from Canada, and what smaller European countries are actually missing there?

According to KongRudi's post Gfk covers 12 european countries. So that's not entirely comprehensive if we want to be technically correct. It does omit quite a lot of minor markets. For perspective, SCEE in total serves about 100 territories across europe, mid-east, africa etc.

The numbers, in tandem with media create, are the best picture we have yet, but don't mistake that for 100% visibility. The balance may individually range from small to TINY, but combined their contribution probably isn't totally negligible.
 

szaromir

Banned
gofreak said:
According to KongRudi's post Gfk covers 12 european countries. So that's not entirely comprehensive if we want to be technically correct. It does omit quite a lot of minor markets. For perspective, SCEE in total serves about 100 territories across europe, mid-east, africa etc.

The numbers, in tandem with media create, are the best picture we have yet, but don't mistake that for 100% visibility. The balance may individually range from small to TINY, but combined their contribution probably isn't totally negligible.
I somehow feel that you want to say that smaller EU markets are in Sony's favour, which isn't always the case - for example in Poland PS3's userbase was around 60k during Killzone 2 release, while 360 sold 130k units last year (though it didn't move so fast prior to last year's price cut and slowed down after euro got stronger). Sadly though majority of 360s in Poland are modded... OTOH PS3 userbase seems very active - 30k copies of Killzone 2 were sold quickly after its release.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
szaromir said:
I somehow feel that you want to say that smaller EU markets are in Sony's favour, which isn't always the case - for example in Poland PS3's userbase was around 60k during Killzone 2 release, while 360 sold 130k units last year (though it didn't move so fast prior to last year's price cut and slowed down after euro got stronger). Sadly though majority of 360s in Poland are modded... OTOH PS3 userbase seems very active - 30k copies of Killzone 2 were sold quickly after its release.

Hehe, no no, I'm not casting judgement on which way the 'other' markets fall.

I thought they were talking about reconciling these numbers with those reported as shipped-to-retail by MS and Sony. So I was just saying to bear in mind that while, yes, the bulk of the difference probably is on shelves somewhere, some of the difference just isn't being covered by these trackers.
 

Hammer24

Banned
The "missing" european countries are those with the weakest economies. To think that the most expensive console sold significantly more units there than its competitors is a bit naive.
 

shinshero

Member
Sony, this is what happens when you give the Europeans unfavourable prices and delays.

Seriously, I can pick up an Xbox 360 arcade officially for £149.99 (although quite a few shops sell them for £119.99 or £99.99). For 60GB premium I can get that for £179.99, no problem.

While a PS3 is officially £299.99 (with quite a few shops selling them at £279.99 or if its a really good deal £249.99).
 

tass0

Banned
Taurus said:
Huh? Where did you get those numbers? On the first page people just said the difference is about 9 million.

Well, Sony have recently stated that the PS3 install base is now 23.8m and Microsoft have recently stated they have 30 million 360s shipped so..
 

Chinner

Banned
tass0 said:
Well, Sony have recently stated that the PS3 install base is now 23.8m and Microsoft have recently stated they have 30 million 360s shipped so..
Also, if you factor in that most 360s break then in reality the X360 has only probably sold around about 27 million. The gap is closing, indeed.
 

tass0

Banned
Chinner said:
Also, if you factor in that most 360s break then in reality the X360 has only probably sold around about 27 million. The gap is closing, indeed.

Ah yes, I do remember reading Microsoft add replaced 360s as sold 360s..
 
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