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[Damerman]

I don't think any hard conclusions can be explicated from this situation, other than the documented lies she made about her race. This specific situations involves too many meticulous details(no this is not a "lets wait for all the facts to come out before we draw conclusions") from a plethora of grey areas.

I really just don't know man.

 

[Amir0x]

What the.

What in the actual fuck.

You guys comprehend what this means right?

That Wayans Brother movie is canon.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

People saying transracial is the same thing as transgender are being disingenuous as fuck, and everyone sees through it.

 

[J10]

People saying transracial is the same thing as transgender are being disingenuous as fuck, and everyone sees through it.

You might have had one or two people genuinely entertaining the possibility last night. Right now it's trolls just following up to see people get annoyed. It has to be. It's too dumb.

 

[Ether_Snake]

This reminds me of people who say being gay is ok because there is scientific proofs that someone might be gay, as if if there weren't such proofs then what, it would be wrong? So it's only ok because it's biological?

Now again we hear the same arguments here.

Ok she lied and all that, people sometimes lie to get what they want. Let's not pretend people here are really upset the NAACP is run by someone who lied, or upset about anything relating to the NAACP. People are upset because they're having trouble figuring out an angle in this debate. Everyone's wiggling in the room.

 

[Htown]

I liked when this thread was about humor and not stupidity.

 

[EdibleKnife]

People saying transracial is the same thing as transgender are being disingenuous as fuck, and everyone sees through it.

The fact that we've had actual trans-gaffers here produce their thoughts and experiences to show how it's not at all like this situation only to be roundly denied by cis-gaffers with little more than "Well it kinda sounds the same, innit?" is particularly frustrating

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I liked when this thread was about humor and not stupidity.

Twitter's kind of the same way today. Everyone was mostly having fun with this absurd story until some people started to get really racist and transphobic (somehow) about this whole thing.

 

[Slayven]

The fact that we've had actual trans-gaffers here produce their thoughts and experiences to show how it's not at all like this situation only to be roundly denied by cis-gaffers with little more than "Well it kinda sounds the same, innit?" is particularly frustrating

That is truly sad, when you go through something difficult and being told by others that you don't know shit. These people live it, but folks want to play with "what ifs", and analogies.

 

[thepotatoman]

I understand she lied and everything (this is part of the reason this is funny) but that's not the point of what I'm saying. Take the fact she went about it the wrong way out of this part of the discussion.

I'm simply saying that people should have the right to define their race if they so choose. As medical technology advances, people are going to gain the ability to drastically change their racial appearance. So your white friends that might want to belong to the black community are going to be able to change their appearance so that people's first impression of them is as a black person (a VERY big deal in America, as is self evident). Should they not be able to do that?

The problem for me is that accepting the concept of "transrace" would basically be an endorsement to the idea of a biological divide that doesn't exist and a cultural divide that shouldn't exist. A black person and a white person is scientifically the same damn thing beyond very minor details. There's just no real self identification to change there.

You can change the color of your skin all you want, and I see no reason to care, but you can't change your race or ethnicity, nor is there any scientific reason for you to want to. The only reason you even have to check a box to verify your ethnicity on anything is because there's a history of people screwing over people of other races in various ways, and we want to try to make sure people aren't doing that anymore.

Sure, cultures have been formed around this divide, but there's nothing really stopping a white person from participating in these cultures. There's only two things stopping a white person from doing anything regarding participating in black culture.

First is the concept of cultural appropriation, which wouldn't change if you changed your racial identity since that identity would be part of that appropriation. Your background and the privileges you grew up with are still yours no matter what race you choose to identify as. It's really not that restricting as long as you acknowledge the differences in the backgrounds of an average black person and an average white person, and not make everything about yourself.

Second would be feeling unaccepted in that culture as a white person, but people too closed minded to accept you as a white person isn't going to accept you as a "transrace" anyway. Maybe you can change the color of your skin and lie about your background to become accepted, but is that really the sort of behavior we should be promoting?

A transgendered person is someone that stops lying about who he or she truly is. A transracial person would by definition almost have to be someone that lies about their past and background, in order to truly join the social construct they're trying to join. Otherwise It'd be a concept that is either pointless or racist, given that you almost have to think there's something special about being a certain race beyond the cultural background in order to believe that you can successfully change your own race like that.

Maybe people can choose to do whatever they want with themselves, but I think we can say this is a bad choice for a number of reasons.

 

[figadapaura]

I still can't fathom how this is real. How does something like this happen?

 

[Guileless]

People saying transracial is the same thing as transgender are being disingenuous as fuck, and everyone sees through it.

From the definition of "gender identity" and "gender expression" on the GLAAD media reference page, you can replace "gender" with "race/racial" and virtually all of it is internally consistent with this woman's explanation, e.g.:

Racial Identity

One's internal, deeply held sense of one's race. For transracial people, their own internal race identity does not match the race they were assigned at birth... Unlike racial expression (see below) racial identity is not visible to others.

Racial Expression

External manifestations of race expressed through one's name, pronouns, clothing, haircut, behavior, voice, or body characteristics... Typically, transracial people seek to make their racial expression align with their racial identity, rather than the race they were assigned at birth.

 

[Slayven]

From the definition of "gender identity" and "gender expression" on the GLAAD media reference page, you can replace "gender" with "race/racial" and virtually all of it is internally consistent with this woman's explanation, e.g.:

External manifestations of race expressed through one's name, pronouns, clothing, haircut, behavior, voice, or body characteristics... Typically, transracial people seek to make their racial expression align with their racial identity, rather than the race they were assigned at birth.

How do I behave black?

 

[LaserBuddha]

Maybe she didn't try to make her skin darker. Maybe she has revitiligo...

 

[GameGuru59]

The problem I have with this argument is that still a pretty exclusive attitude that values arbitrary distinctions over peoples' actual experiences. Would you be comfortable telling a trans person they aren't actually trans because of MRI results? What are your thoughts on non-binary people?

Exactly.

How do I behave black?

How do I behave like a woman? It should be self evident to you that there are certain traits and experiences that are identified with black people. Let's not be cute, it inhibits discussion.

 

[Opto]

From the definition of "gender identity" and "gender expression" on the GLAAD media reference page, you can replace "gender" with "race/racial" and virtually all of it is internally consistent with this woman's explanation, e.g.:

what an apt user name

 

[EdibleKnife]

That is truly sad, when you go through something difficult and being told by others that you don't know shit. These people live it, but folks want to play with "what ifs", and analogies.

It's kinda par for the course when topics about marginalized groups come up. "This is actually what it's like to be black in America", "This is how it feels to be trans", "These are my experiences as a woman"; all met with a chorus of "Well I can't believe that to be true. Here's the actual truth" from people without those experiences.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Nobody here can say anything else than "this is how I feel about it", that's it. It doesn't matter what term exists, what science says about someone's DNA, etc. It's all about how you feel about someone else's claims or decision about themselves.

People who try to reduce this to medical or scientific arguments are being disingenuous. What if she had a great great great grand father who was black? Would she not be black enough? Are we going to start to refer to scientific literature written in the next few years to make a call on this? What will the threshold be?

Fact is someone could very well put themselves in the same kind of situation as this woman, without lying. Then what? A blood test to validate whether we'll condemn someone or not?

At the end of the day that's what it boils down to: how do you as an individual feel about the situation.

There's nothing else that is relevant. If you say it matters to society, that's just a collection of individuals, so it still comes back down to how the individual feels about the situation. Not science, not MRIs, not DNA, just how individuals feel.

 

[Damerman]

The problem for me is that accepting the concept of "transrace" would basically be an endorsement to the idea of a biological divide that doesn't exist and a cultural divide that shouldn't exist. A black person and a white person is scientifically the same damn thing beyond very minor details. There's just no real self identification to change there.

You can change the color of your skin all you want, and I see no reason to care, but you can't change your race or ethnicity, nor is there any scientific reason for you to want to. The only reason you even have to check a box to verify your ethnicity on anything is because there's a history of people screwing over people of other races in various ways, and we want to try to make sure people aren't doing that anymore.

Sure, cultures have been formed around this divide, but there's nothing really stopping a white person from participating in these cultures. There's only two things stopping a white person from doing anything regarding participating in black culture.

First is the concept of cultural appropriation, which wouldn't change if you changed your racial identity since that identity would be part of that appropriation. Your background and the privileges you grew up with are still yours no matter what race you choose to identify as. It's really not that restricting as long as you acknowledge the differences in the backgrounds of an average black person and an average white person, and not make everything about yourself.

Second would be feeling unaccepted in that culture as a white person, but people too closed minded to accept you as a white person isn't going to accept you as a "transrace" anyway. Maybe you can change the color of your skin and lie about your background to become accepted, but is that really the sort of behavior we should be promoting?

A transgendered person is someone that stops lying about who he or she truly is. A transracial person would by definition almost have to be someone that lies about their past and background, in order to truly join the social construct they're trying to join. Otherwise It'd be a concept that is either pointless or racist, given that you almost have to think there's something special about being a certain race beyond the cultural background in order to believe that you can successfully change your own race like that.

Maybe people can choose to do whatever they want with themselves, but I think we can say this is a bad choice for a number of reasons.

so far this is the most convincing argument as to why it may be harmful for her to try and change her race. still feels mostly innocuous to me though.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

From the definition of "gender identity" and "gender expression" on the GLAAD media reference page, you can replace "gender" with "race/racial" and virtually all of it is internally consistent with this woman's explanation, e.g.:

This is all fair, but Dolezal is just a straight up liar who used those lies to give herself power. Transracial and transgender comparisons here aren't working for me.

 

[Cyriades]

Her birth certificate. Solidifying the fact that Larry and Ruth are her birth parents, that she is ethnically Czech/Swedish/German. She is not and will never be a black woman in America. A lot of you need to stop making up medical terms, or coming up with the greatest hypothetical sob stories about how she could've been staring into a mirror crying and not feeling in the right skin. It's disingenuous as shit.

Ancestry DNA

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I liked when this thread was about humor and not stupidity.

I know.

It's just total mood whiplash. It was so fun yesterday, and then I woke up this morning and started seeing the defenders, and now I'm just mad.

 

[Damerman]

What are your thoughts on non-binary people?

this is a pretty good point.

 

[SmokyDave]

Except as I've said numerous times already, there is no such thing as transracial/transethnicity. The term has literally been made up within the last day. I wonder what all of you would've done or said if this story broke a month before the Caitlyn Jenner story came out.

Except you're wrong. You should perhaps rein it in a bit bearing that in mind. The term hasn't literally been made up in the last day.

Feel free to say it's bullshit, but it's not a concept that just popped out of thin air yesterday. That's a fact.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The problem I have with this argument is that still a pretty exclusive attitude that values arbitrary distinctions over peoples' actual experiences. Would you be comfortable telling a trans person they aren't actually trans because of MRI results? What are your thoughts on non-binary people?

It's been noted, she hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being black. In fact, it sounds like she faked doing so in some ways. That's a major caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a white person who identifies as black, you'd still have the privilege of a white person.

 

[The Beard]

The "Trans-racial" argument is equivalent to the, "if we let a man marry another man, where will it end ? A man will be able to marry a tree? Or his dog?" Argument.

 

[SmokyDave]

As it's been noted, she hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being black. In fact, it sounds like she faked doing so. That's a ajor caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a white person who identifies as black, you'd still have the privilege of a white person.

Gimme a T.... Gimme an E.... Gimme an R.... Gimme an F....

(Just sayin', that's exactly the same argument).

 

[Claude Augario]

Is this guy transethnic? He even uses his fake ethnicity to give himself some sort of authority on Japanese-American internment camps, which is all kinds of gross.

He got laughed off GAF and I've never seen a single person try to legitimize his deceit and delusions.

 

[Einchy]

As it's been noted, she hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being black. In fact, it sounds like she faked doing so. That's a ajor caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a white person who identifies as black, you'd still have the privilege of a white person.

This argument is used a lot by radical feminists for why a transwomen shouldn't call herself a woman.

[edit]

Actually, pretty much all the arguments for why she isn't black are word for word arguments used against trans people.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Is this guy transethnic? He even uses his fake ethnicity to give himself some sort of authority on Japanese-American internment camps, which is all kinds of gross.

He got laughed off GAF and I've never seen a single person try to legitimize his deceit and delusions.

It's an extremely similar situation.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Is this guy transethnic? He even uses his fake ethnicity to give himself some sort of authority on Japanese-American internment camps, which is all kinds of gross.

He got laughed off GAF and I've never seen a single person try to legitimize his deceit and delusions.

Must be some sort of expert on shame and honor.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's been noted, she hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being black. In fact, it sounds like she faked doing so in some ways. That's a major caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a white person who identifies as black, you'd still have the privilege of a white person.

Gimme a T.... Gimme an E.... Gimme an R.... Gimme an F....

(Just sayin', that's exactly the same argument).

Hmmm.

It's been noted, he hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being a woman. In fact, it sounds like he faked doing so in some ways. That's a major caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a man who identifies as a woman, you'd still have the privilege of a man.

Well I'll be damned.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Anyone here have any familiarity with Brazilian ethnic identity?

This isn't unheard of.

 

[J10]

Is this guy transethnic? He even uses his fake ethnicity to give himself some sort of authority on Japanese-American internment camps, which is all kinds of gross.

He got laughed off GAF and I've never seen a single person try to legitimize his deceit and delusions.

Man, why you gotta bring up old shit?

 

[collige]

It's been noted, she hasn't experienced the prejudice that comes with being black. In fact, it sounds like she faked doing so in some ways. That's a major caveat in the "experience" argument, even if you're a white person who identifies as black, you'd still have the privilege of a white person.

Sure, but I hope you'd agree that experiencing racism isn't a necessary condition for someone to be black.

 

[LaserBuddha]

I know.

It's just total mood whiplash. It was so fun yesterday, and then I woke up this morning and started seeing the defenders, and now I'm just mad.

I tried to help steer it back but "revitiligo" is all I got today.

 

[Derwind]

Nobody here can say anything else than "this is how I feel about it", that's it. It doesn't matter what term exists, what science says about someone's DNA, etc. It's all about how you feel about someone else's claims or decision about themselves.

People who try to reduce this to medical or scientific arguments are being disingenuous. What if she had a great great great grand father who was black? Would she not be black enough? Are we going to start to refer to scientific literature written in the next few years to make a call on this? What will the threshold be?

Fact is someone could very well put themselves in the same kind of situation as this woman, without lying. Then what? A blood test to validate whether we'll condemn someone or not?

At the end of the day that's what it boils down to: how do you as an individual feel about the situation.

There's nothing else that is relevant. If you say it matters to society, that's just a collection of individuals, so it still comes back down to how the individual feels about the situation. Not science, not MRIs, not DNA, just how individuals feel.

Forget science then.

What is transracial identity?

How you feel doesn't gives us anything to legitamize this condition, I could feel a ton of things but why or how does that legitamize it or make it relevant? You just saying how someone feels about this is the only relevant topic doesn't tell me anything either. Why should anyone give it any equal importance to any variety of issues?

I really want to know as I'm all sorts of confused now.

 

[lenovox1]

Uhuh and there has been literally ZERO studies on this situation with rachel. So how could you possibly say one way or the other how Rachel is feeling inside?

How can you say its not the same? Isn't that a crazy assumption to say?

What we do know is that there are no structural, physical, chemical, or otherwise any differences between the brains of a normal black, white, Asian [insert ethnicity]. What we do know is that race, as we define, it is a societal construct. Homo sapiens is Homo sapiens.

What we also know is that, due to her hobbies, studies, and interests, she had the motive to want to be perceived as black by African Americans. She's not a martyr here.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This argument is used a lot by radical feminists for why a transwomen shouldn't call herself a woman.

[edit]

Actually, pretty much all the arguments for why she isn't black are word for word arguments used against trans people.

Another thing that separates the two would be that she wasn't born feeling this way. Transgender people are born with that in mind.

Sure, but I hope you'd agree that experiencing racism isn't a necessary condition for someone to be black.

It's not a necessary part of it, in fact, life would be better without it, but I'd certainly be offended is someone was lying about her life experience so that she would have the right to talk about the issues that my race experiences on a daily basis.

 

[block tower]

So in this post-transracial world, apparently white folks can turn into black folks. Does it work the other way around?

If not, I'm calling bullshit.

idk we'll have to ask wayne brady

 

[J10]

Anyone here have any familiarity with Brazilian ethnic identity?

This isn't unheard of.

What do you mean? Sure you're not talking about internalized racism?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Another thing that separates the two would be that she wasn't born feeling this way. Transgender people are born with that in mind.

We actually don't know this about her, we don't know how she's felt throughout life until she comes out and says it.

 

[Einchy]

Another thing that separates the two would be that she wasn't born feeling this way. Transgender people are born with that in mind.

But wouldn't a transwoman still have had the privilege of a man until she started transitioning?
Then there's that fact that Rachel says she's black and her parents say she has always identified with the black community. Who is to say how long she has seen herself as a black woman.

 

[Madness]

Except you're wrong. You should perhaps rein it in a bit bearing that in mind. The term hasn't literally been made up in the last day.

Feel free to say it's bullshit, but it's not a concept that just popped out of thin air yesterday. That's a fact.

You mean to tell me there is a genuine condition where people look at themselves and yet feel they are another race/ethnicity? That it's something we should accept and champion? 'I think I'm black therefore I am'? Seems like you just want to conflate it with people who are transgendered/gender dysphoria.

Either way, for me the thread has run its course. You win. She should do what she wants. If she wants to pretend to be black, we should all celebrate her courage. It's extremely difficult in this age to use some bronzer, style your hair like that.

 

[bobbychalkers]

So in this post-transracial world, apparently white folks can turn into black folks. Does it work the other way around?

If not, I'm calling bullshit.

Brb, I'm gonna get an open carry license and go to Walmart.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

What do you mean? Sure you're not talking about internalized racism?

I'm saying that race is a cultural construct, not something that is supported by science. There are places in the world, like Brazil where race and ethnicity are only valid in so far as how the individual views and represents him or herself.

In other words, it's culturally acceptable to change your "race" or ethnicity based on how you view yourself. And doing so isn't taboo.

 

[III-V]

I doubt this is really that uncommon, people all over the world re-invent themselves as someone else.

 

[LaserBuddha]

But wouldn't a transwoman still have had the privilege of a man until she started transitioning?
Then there's that fact that Rachel says she's black and her parents say she has always identified with the black community. Who is to say how long she has seen herself as a black woman.

Guys it's time to take this thread behind the barn and shoot it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You mean to tell me there is a genuine condition where people look at themselves and yet feel they are another race/ethnicity? That it's something we should accept and champion? 'I think I'm black therefore I am'?

*Shrug*

There's people that identify as animals and like dressing up like those animals. Now, I'm not SmokyDave, personally I don't think this is equatable to being transgender, but it shouldn't be treated like it's the most insane and farfetched thing in the world.

 

[cutmeamango]

People mention gender identity disorder because it's widely discussed and present (and a hot button). And it's a problematic comparison because it has departed from the psychological state alone to its verifiable physiological roots.

Other, primarily observed as psychological, disorders that may develop with age (instead of onset from gestation) and most likely have strong physiological causes too that just are not precisely defined yet (not that GID is), should not cause as much aversion to compare as GID.
Like anorexia or bulimia.

The other topic about body integrity showed that even with medical studies about it, some people are not "willing to accept" it as real because of that comparison made by others or internally.

---

All in all, wittingly lying or pathologically 'lying', it's bizarre.

And I dunno if she has a mental condition or not. Not a doctor.