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[Men_in_Boxes]

Jordan's a better shooter, better defender, better technician, more impressive back to basket game, maybe more efficient overall? That's before touching intangibles, which are harder to directly compare and YMMV on that stuff but Jordan certainly in the final analysis has to "win" a lot of those categories even if he was a jerk to do it.

But I don't really think there's a debate to be had here, I don't debate flat-earthers either, so feel free to be wrong or agree to disagree or whatever you wish.

So either Daryl Morey is a "flat earther" and will soon be exposed as a GM and talent evaluator...or you throw that term around for nefarious reasons.

"Especially if you go back, even to Allen Iverson or if you go back even farther back from that, some of the great mid-ranged players of the past. So, it’s very interesting, and yeah, I do upset a lot of people when I say things like, ‘LeBron is significantly better than Jordan.’ Actually, it’s like overwhelmingly true.

You just look at his ability to generate wins and championship probability over time, and you basically break that down—and obviously, you don’t need all the numbers, you can watch as well and see that—but if you basically isolate that and also look at the career he’s had, frankly, I think at this point, it’s become a bit of a big margin frankly, where he’s come out ahead.” - Daryl Morey

While Morey is a better talent evaluator than just about everyone on the planet, you can just look at how teams perform with and without said players.

Jordan never gave the Bulls a massive jump in wins when he played and the Bulls never really fell off when he stopped. LeBron on the other hand has consistently given his team 20+ wins per season when you account for roster stability throughout his entire career. It's really not much of a debate.

 

[bender]

Because LBJ literally does everything better than Jordan. Everything.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Jordan was a top 10 all time talent and arguably one of the best individual scorers of all time. He also happened to play on some of the most stacked rosters in the league thanks to Pippens contract.

His record against quality teams with dominant front courts throughout his career is shockingly bad. Honestly, go look at his record against the early Utah teams, the Rockets and Spurs in his career. It's horrendous because his offensive game wasn't balanced and he couldn't make teammates better. You can't be the GOAT if your kyptonite is literally quality big men.

 

[EruditeHobo]

So either Daryl Morey is a "flat earther" and will soon be exposed as a GM and talent evaluator...or you throw that term around for nefarious reasons.

Definitely the latter.

Morey knows his shit and is an interesting dude, but lots of people that know their shit can disagree over binary propositions like this one. When a defeator for the argument is pointing to another, smarter GM or basketball mind who disagrees, your argument isn't very strong.

I have LBJ on Mt. Rushmore, that's damn good, and I think LeBron is incredible, the best of the modern era... but he simply has not done what MJ has done. That matters. You and I and Daryl Morey can disagree about that, but just so you know LBJ does not do "everything" better than MJ... that's the silly thing you said which I responded to, so this argument from authority -- even if Morey is a really smart guy, which he is -- doesn't feel responsive to the overall point to me.

Not even Daryl Morey would say LeBron James does "everything" better than MJ, because as much as he likes these predictive analytics and what not he's a smart guy, and I'm sure he knows that's not true. Because it's pretty obviously not true.

Jordan never gave the Bulls a massive jump in wins when he played...

LBJ may have been more important to the very mediocre Cavs team he left than Jordan was to a very specific Bulls team he retired from... even that is a kind of weak argument about teams which weren't winning multiple titles to teams which DID and then didn't when MJ left, so that's kind of dumb to me, but either way you could say the same something similar about lots of players at various stages of their careers, has that not also been true of Shaq, Tim Duncan, Kobe, AI, and probably even Earvin Magic Johnson? Hell, I'm sure you could say the same about Harden and Giannis right now. But that's less about the player specifically, and more about those particular rosters and how they're built around that central figure.

 

[EruditeHobo]

MJ was "top 10"? Jesus man... what's your top 10 look like?

 

[Amory]

How did Kemba not get a foul call there

He got bodied and got hit on the arm right in front of the ref

 

[Richard Packer]

This raps/celtic game is nuts.

 

[YukiOnna]

And fittingly we go to Game 7.

 

[Cutty Flam]

Probably the best game of the entire postseason

OG Anuoby at the Center was risky, Theis got like 6 lobs lmao but in the end it didn’t matter I guess they pulled through in true championship fashion

 

[Richard Packer]

And fittingly we go to Game 7.

No home court either. This will be interesting.

 

[Chromata]

This is going to be one hell of a game 7. I'm glad we're past the golden state autowin era lol.

 

[Lionel Richie]

God fucking damn I thought that Smart ball was in. I know he traveled and I know it would have been a 2, but I thought it was in.

 

[Amory]

Terrible game to lose for Boston. That's a heartbreaker. Tough to bounce back

Spoiler

would be nice if Hayward could ever stay fucking healthy

 

[bender]

Jordan was a top 10 all time talent and arguably one of the best individual scorers of all time. He also happened to play on some of the most stacked rosters in the league thanks to Pippens contract.

His record against quality teams with dominant front courts throughout his career is shockingly bad. Honestly, go look at his record against the early Utah teams, the Rockets and Spurs in his career. It's horrendous because his offensive game wasn't balanced and he couldn't make teammates better. You can't be the GOAT if your kyptonite is literally quality big men.

Arguments are nice and all but saying Lebron is better than Jordan at everything is profoundly stupid and just kill me interest in engaging in the conversation.

 

[EruditeHobo]

This is going to be one hell of a game 7. I'm glad we're past the golden state autowin era lol.

SUCH a relief.

Even though they will be good next year. Nets and Ws in this mix... is interesting.

 

[Cutty Flam]

Warriors aren’t going away. Steph Curry with several months on top of a five month offseason to practice is a dangerous thing

I wish Draymond weren’t such a sorry ass player though. That dumb fuck needs to step his game up if only to make up for the 2016 NBA Finals series he sabotaged for his team. Nevermind him playing like an absolute scrub this season. Offense game doesn’t exist unless he’s hiding behind superstars

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Definitely the latter.

Morey knows his shit and is an interesting dude, but lots of people that know their shit can disagree over binary propositions like this one. When a defeator for the argument is pointing to another, smarter GM or basketball mind who disagrees, your argument isn't very strong.

I have LBJ on Mt. Rushmore, that's damn good, and I think LeBron is incredible, the best of the modern era... but he simply has not done what MJ has done. That matters. You and I and Daryl Morey can disagree about that, but just so you know LBJ does not do "everything" better than MJ... that's the silly thing you said which I responded to, so this argument from authority -- even if Morey is a really smart guy, which he is -- doesn't feel responsive to the overall point to me.

Not even Daryl Morey would say LeBron James does "everything" better than MJ, because as much as he likes these predictive analytics and what not he's a smart guy, and I'm sure he knows that's not true. Because it's pretty obviously not true.



LBJ may have been more important to the very mediocre Cavs team he left than Jordan was to a very specific Bulls team he retired from... even that is a kind of weak argument about teams which weren't winning multiple titles to teams which DID and then didn't when MJ left, so that's kind of dumb to me, but either way you could say the same something similar about lots of players at various stages of their careers, has that not also been true of Shaq, Tim Duncan, Kobe, AI, and probably even Earvin Magic Johnson? Hell, I'm sure you could say the same about Harden and Giannis right now. But that's less about the player specifically, and more about those particular rosters and how they're built around that central figure.

Good overall post. I only have a few rebuttals...

I guess when I say "LeBron does everything better than Jordan", I'm really saying he has greater offensive impact than Jordan, as well as greater defensive impact than Jordan.

Individual scoring is a toss up. LBJ is more efficient than MJ but MJ has him on volume. I don't think individual scoring matters at all though. I think the only metric that matters is how beneficial your presence on the court makes your teams offense. In those terms, LBJ is clearly better. See: When Jordan plays baseball in 1994, Pippen, Kukoc, and Harper (the three highest scoring players on the Bulls) all increased their volume as well as efficiency due to Jordans score first mentality. LeBron James gifted Mo Williams an All Star nod. Talking heads knock LBJ for "making the right play" when Jordan would take the last shot, but the right play is always superior.

The last thing is their influence on winning when they're on and off (relatively) stable rosters. A 23 year old MJ got added to a bad Bulls team in his rookie year and that roster won +7 games from the previous year. A 19 year old LBJ was added to a bad Cavs team and they won +11 games during his rookie year. You can go through both players career history (Jordans ankle injury, his surprise retirement) and see that he's worth a relatively modest amount of wins compared to LBJ. Again, not a perfect methodology but it's something.

Another strong case against Jordan in the 80s and 90s is simply that he's a shooting guard. The best SG that's ever played the game but Center position was simply more vital pre 2000. My top 5 has Jordan in it surrounded by big men and LBJ. The Bulls defensive efficiency improved when Jordan played baseball, which is in my opinion a massive slight against his defensive effectiveness. You rip Kareem, Olojuwan, LBJ, and Wilt off their respective rosters (while in their prime) and there's zero chance team defense doesn't crater.

MJ had a storybook career but that doesn't make him the best player ever.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Can't believe Raps might pull it off. The 3 pt ball was working tonight.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Good overall post. I only have a few rebuttals...

I guess when I say "LeBron does everything better than Jordan", I'm really saying he has greater offensive impact than Jordan, as well as greater defensive impact than Jordan.

Individual scoring is a toss up. LBJ is more efficient than MJ but MJ has him on volume. I don't think individual scoring matters at all though. I think the only metric that matters is how beneficial your presence on the court makes your teams offense. In those terms, LBJ is clearly better. See: When Jordan plays baseball in 1994, Pippen, Kukoc, and Harper (the three highest scoring players on the Bulls) all increased their volume as well as efficiency due to Jordans score first mentality. LeBron James gifted Mo Williams an All Star nod. Talking heads knock LBJ for "making the right play" when Jordan would take the last shot, but the right play is always superior.

The last thing is their influence on winning when they're on and off (relatively) stable rosters. A 23 year old MJ got added to a bad Bulls team in his rookie year and that roster won +7 games from the previous year. A 19 year old LBJ was added to a bad Cavs team and they won +11 games during his rookie year. You can go through both players career history (Jordans ankle injury, his surprise retirement) and see that he's worth a relatively modest amount of wins compared to LBJ. Again, not a perfect methodology but it's something.

Another strong case against Jordan in the 80s and 90s is simply that he's a shooting guard. The best SG that's ever played the game but Center position was simply more vital pre 2000. My top 5 has Jordan in it surrounded by big men and LBJ. The Bulls defensive efficiency improved when Jordan played baseball, which is in my opinion a massive slight against his defensive effectiveness. You rip Kareem, Olojuwan, LBJ, and Wilt off their respective rosters (while in their prime) and there's zero chance team defense doesn't crater.

MJ had a storybook career but that doesn't make him the best player ever.

I'm no NBA pro (my best heydays were watching Bird in the 80s ad 90s on CBS Sunday games at 1 pm), but I'd take Lebron over Jordan any day. And I don't even like James as I think he's a baby, while I didn't mind Jordan back in the day and even enjoyed his Netflix show.

No doubt Jordan has more hardware, but aside from FT %, I think James is better than Jordan in everything. Jordan might get more points but thats due to taking a million shots.

James is a much more efficient player.

James also rebounds more, passes more, can play forward or guard (I think a handful of times he even filled in playing centre), and unless something really odd happens to James, he definitely seems fresher than Jordan was at 34. Jordan's shooting (2pt) started to tail off in his early 30s. James is still shooting 2pt% somewhere between 55-60% which is incredible for a non-centre player.

Unless James gets a career crippling injury, I'm 100% confident James playing at 38-39 he'll be way better than Jordan at 38-39.

 

[caffeware]

 

[YukiOnna]

Clearly looking like a Celtics player there!

 

[Cutty Flam]

Mike D’Antoni challenging that was pretty damn stupid. What a dumb move lol using your only challenge for a screen in the 1st quarter lmfao

Get rekt boy

 

[Hinedorf]

LeBron defending Westbrook is just brutal to watch! If Russ didn't talk so much shit in game 1 I'd probably feel bad.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Anyone else feel like when LeBron passes to Caruso that humans are going to get through this and everything will be alright?

 

[Cutty Flam]

Caruso is a god

 

[e0n]

Looked at the box score... Rockets are done.

 

[paolo11]

Caruso GOAT!!!! Go Lakers!!!

 

[bender]

Over/Under on Harden asking out after this series?

 

[Hinedorf]

Anyone else feel like when LeBron passes to Caruso that humans are going to get through this and everything will be alright?

WELCOME TO THE CARUSHOW BABY!

 

[Knitted Knight]

Clippers-Lakers was meant to be. I fear for Men_in_Boxes when Playoff P, the Claw and the Imp get to work on Lebron.

Magic ball says: High number of turnovers.

 

[paolo11]

Clippers-Lakers was meant to be. I fear for Men_in_Boxes when Playoff P, the Claw and the Imp get to work on Lebron.

Magic ball says: High number of turnovers.

that will be a crazy series. I am going for Lakers but Clippers are very strong

 

[diffusionx]

How the hell did James Harden go 16/20 on free throws... and end up with 21 points

I thought this dude was supposed to be good at basketball

 

[Hinedorf]

that will be a crazy series. I am going for Lakers but Clippers are very strong

I'm as diehard a Lakers fan as the come, haven't missed a game in a decade+.... my personal feeling is I wouldn't be shocked if the Clippers play motivated which against LeBron in the playoffs they would have to, it could be a quick sweep.

On Paper the Clippers have the deeper roster top to bottom with a premium on long range shooters which the Lakers have lacked consistently all year. Clippers also have a championship winning coach, no disrespect to Frank Vogel but Doc has a proven it.

That being said, the Clippers are STILL the Clippers, a team this deep should be rolling people but they continue to look very much like Kawhi's personality which is aloof and not always engaged. Does that give the Lakers a chance? I guess....

I actually put some substantial money in Las Vegas last year prior to Kawhi/PG coming to LA because of how deep they were it just seemed like stars aligning. In my heart of heart I fucking hate the Clippers so much I hope they choke but a betting man says the Clips take it all.

 

[paolo11]

I'm as diehard a Lakers fan as the come, haven't missed a game in a decade+.... my personal feeling is I wouldn't be shocked if the Clippers play motivated which against LeBron in the playoffs they would have to, it could be a quick sweep.

On Paper the Clippers have the deeper roster top to bottom with a premium on long range shooters which the Lakers have lacked consistently all year. Clippers also have a championship winning coach, no disrespect to Frank Vogel but Doc has a proven it.

That being said, the Clippers are STILL the Clippers, a team this deep should be rolling people but they continue to look very much like Kawhi's personality which is aloof and not always engaged. Does that give the Lakers a chance? I guess....

I actually put some substantial money in Las Vegas last year prior to Kawhi/PG coming to LA because of how deep they were it just seemed like stars aligning. In my heart of heart I fucking hate the Clippers so much I hope they choke but a betting man says the Clips take it all.

i feel the same way hahaha. Clippers are deep. Let's just hope Paul George turns to "George Paul" most of the games against Lakers and hopefully, Montrez and Sweet Lou will have inconsistent games as well. The problem with our Lakers is that our shooting is not consistent.

 

[bender]

How the hell did James Harden go 16/20 on free throws... and end up with 21 points

I thought this dude was supposed to be good at basketball

Shot 2/11 otherwise. Basically 21 attempts.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Clippers-Lakers was meant to be. I fear for Men_in_Boxes when Playoff P, the Claw and the Imp get to work on Lebron.

MJ would have murdered Kawhi.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Issa wrap.

 

[Chromata]

Mark my words, the Raptors are heading to the ECF.

It's been a good run for Boston, better luck next year

 

[Knitted Knight]

issanot wrap

 

[Knitted Knight]

Paul George is a quintessential choker.

 

[Frogman_676]

hooooooo boy, were my Rockets ever Roasted.

 

[Cutty Flam]

Raptors or Celtics? This should be a chippy 2nd half

 

[Cutty Flam]

I think Norman Powell will win this game in the end for Raptors. That’s my prediction. Strong play from Norman Powell to finish the Celtics

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Raps/Celtics game is tough fight. 3rd quarter right now. Get on it and watch. Looks like this game is going to be tight to the last minute.

 

[Chromata]

Siakam had such a good regular season, but he's struggling here. I hope he can get back to that performance because they need him.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Siakam had such a good regular season, but he's struggling here. I hope he can get back to that performance because they need him.

He's shot shit every game except the recent game he went 5/9.

I'd use him for defence and rebounding. Tell the team do not let Siakim force a shot.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Raptors or Celtics? This should be a chippy 2nd half

flipping a coin...... Raptors.

 

[Cutty Flam]

Siakam doing his best “Manu Ginobili game 6“ impression

 

[Cutty Flam]

Nice push there by Lowry, gave them four pts back to back plays in the clutch

 

[Chromata]

Hoping for a miracle here. Those turnovers are killing them.