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[Izuna]

I intended the real twist to be that

Spoiler

Kendal is a girl

. I wanted to drop hints for a few things hut some of them only have a single piece of dialogue to refer to them. A read this story out a few times om XBL and some people could it out. I wanted something that you could read twice and the second time, you notice more things.

Here is the fact sheet I used (warning, bad spelling): https://www.dropbox.com/s/en5xtqa6en2k3hu/Last Call facts summary.pdf?dl=0

(password is [to see the] with spaces)


Time for me to read and critique myself!

 

[felon]

Looks like I'll have time to read all the rest of the stories and vote/offer impressions later today. It's been a couple days since I finished my story (mole men) and I feel good that I worked myself hard enough to complete it, even after I realized it was going to be too long. It's the first time I've been able to work up the will to write fiction in earnest, but now I'm sure I'll keep up with these threads. My mind has been going back to my impressions of my story's weaknesses, but I'm glad for that if it means I already have leads on what I should work on. I'm looking forward to anyone who wants to post any kind of critique or thoughts about it.

Critiques
Mole Men Season Six by felon-

Thanks a lot for your thoughts! I found your critique to be totally valid and it gives me a few things to think about. One aspect I'll definitely work on if I go back to it is making it more obvious what standard androids are like, to be contrasted with Clover. I didn't just want to dump the reader in and make it feel like scifi was the focus by rambling about androids early on, and there wasn't really room for another android character to establish regular androids, so I tried to give the reader an impression about androids in a number of other ways, such as implying that the customer service guy could have been one, the need for a failsafe involving asking them, and by making the reader wonder about and think of Clover as just a weird girl first, before defining her by telling you she's an android, but there were some flaws with each of these approaches. As for the lack of physical descriptions, that was basically just a stylistic choice (as I did think of androids as being indistinguishable) but I can see how it confuses the frame of reference, so I'm glad you pointed it out. Besides that, I definitely didn't think I'd be getting any votes despite only submitting half of a story, so thanks a lot for that too!

 

[MilkBeard]

Edit: I'm lacking sleep. I need to get some sleep before I post, ha ha.

 

[Ashes]

Vote whenever the list is up.

Spoiler

the list is up

 

[Red]

I intended the real twist to be that

Spoiler

Kendal is a girl

. I wanted to drop hints for a few things hut some of them only have a single piece of dialogue to refer to them. A read this story out a few times om XBL and some people could it out. I wanted something that you could read twice and the second time, you notice more things.

Here is the fact sheet I used (warning, bad spelling): https://www.dropbox.com/s/en5xtqa6en2k3hu/Last Call facts summary.pdf?dl=0

(password is [to see the] with spaces)


Time for me to read and critique myself!

I don't think that's an especially strong twist. It's helpful to identify your characters as early as possible, especially in short stories. This is not always necessary, and short shorts can sometimes hinge on revealing identity. In these types of story, however, that identity is more than a simple gender reveal. And often we are left wondering if the revelation of character is complete, which makes the story feel not-quite-finished (I think an untidy ending is admirable in short stories; it makes us want to read them again, and again). I think specifically of The Hit Man by T.C. Boyle.

Your story has three twists: the killer is a woman, the killer has a daughter, and the hit is an FBI agent. Keep one of those. There is too much going on for a story sub-2400 words. I think her gender identity and personal life are things you should reveal early on. That's my preference. These two things will make her more vivid and easily imaginable, and a more vivid character is a more sympathetic character. Sympathy breeds interest. Interest keeps us reading.

By becoming too concerned with the revelation of twists, you sacrifice logical consistency. If the FBI agent could have taken Kendal out at any point, why does he wait until she has mutilated him, threatened to shoot him, raided his kitchen? All her actions toward him are unnecessary if he was willing and able to kill her. They exist only to prolong the story for your readers, to keep us in there longer before getting to the twist. I think it's important to prioritize the life of your characters over the surprise of your readers.

 

[Izuna]

I don't think that's an especially strong twist. It's helpful to identify your characters as early as possible, especially in short stories. This is not always necessary, and short shorts can sometimes hinge on revealing identity. In these types of story, however, that identity is more than a simple gender reveal. And often we are left wondering if the revelation of character is complete, which makes the story feel not-quite-finished (I think an untidy ending is admirable in short stories; it makes us want to read them again, and again). I think specifically of The Hit Man by T.C. Boyle.

Your story has three twists: the killer is a woman, the killer has a daughter, and the hit is an FBI agent. Keep one of those. There is too much going on for a story sub-2400 words. I think her gender identity and personal life are things you should reveal early on. That's my preference. These two things will make her more vivid and easily imaginable, and a more vivid character is a more sympathetic character. Sympathy breeds interest. Interest keeps us reading.

By becoming too concerned with the revelation of twists, you sacrifice logical consistency. If the FBI agent could have taken Kendal out at any point, why does he wait until she has mutilated him, threatened to shoot him, raided his kitchen? All her actions toward him are unnecessary if he was willing and able to kill her. They exist only to prolong the story for your readers, to keep us in there longer before getting to the twist. I think it's important to prioritize the life of your characters over the surprise of your readers.

Because he needed the phone call to happen. He thought he was safe until she uh, "degraded" him because that was what he thought her M.O. was. But you shouldn't take the story too seriously, it was satire on purpose.

Prior to cutting, there was more talk about FBI before hand. Kendal would suggest that the sort of fake reason the client gave her was exactly what her standard procedure is for, to stop the FBI from properly investigating the hit (if it has to do with the Russian mob). So him being revealed to be FBI (obvious or not), was something she failed to notice. Also, she mentions how Peter is acting strange, but it isn't really strange because people do different stuff. Kendal isn't perfect and is dropping stuff, leaving her weapon, never checks to see if he is tied up properly etc.

Anyway, while the reveal of her sex isn't a "big" twist, it's just there to catch a reader who assumed she was a guy by the way her thoughts were.

But that's subjective.

One thing I really don't understand though, is why it's important at all for people to be sympathetic. This is what the opening paragraph was about. If you know about Yuri at first, you probably don't think she is AS evil as she is, but because it's at the end it's too late to really give a shit. You get to think she is as awful as she makes herself out to be until the end. That's the point: it's "too late" to care about Yuri, it's at the very end. (morality/ethical nature of actions depends on the timeline, but not the chorology, when you know about stuff.)

I could play through the worst things I have ever done and it would be impossible to be sympathetic if I didn't play through the reasons why or what led me to get there. Orange is the New Black was pretty good at that. You never really started to care if they were probably led into prison because of external factors because your first impression is them being incarcerated and what they have already become.

Moreover, I like to think any bad guy in any film etc. has a story that would make anyone sympathetic. You don't get that in a lot of movies. It's akin to when a random bad guy dies in an action movie, and a character comments on him having a family. Ah maybe the joke wasn't portrayed very well, but that's what I was going for. You can watch that same movie again and know think of him having a family, and it changes what you think of his death. This short story is short enough I wanted the second read to entice the reader to think about Kendal more the second time around. Maybe this is sexist, but knowing she's a girl and has a child, makes her actions prior seem more noble. If this were a longer story she would have two hits, but that wasn't the challenge. I wanted the second read to happen and feel different.

I kinda wish I kept the FBI parts in, but without it the story is all about Kendal's experience, and I find that it makes it more fun to read twice when the plot isn't really about what is revealed.

~

finally, I wouldn't think he would kill if he didn't let her so much to him. Because he was waiting for the last moment to arrest or whatever, and that moment never came "the face-sitting", I like to think he decided on making her "die accidentally" because of that process. Realism and logic aren't the same thing.

He wasn't supposed to be tied up for hours.

 

[MilkBeard]

I intended the real twist to be that

Spoiler

Kendal is a girl

. I wanted to drop hints for a few things hut some of them only have a single piece of dialogue to refer to them. A read this story out a few times om XBL and some people could it out. I wanted something that you could read twice and the second time, you notice more things.

Here is the fact sheet I used (warning, bad spelling): https://www.dropbox.com/s/en5xtqa6en2k3hu/Last Call facts summary.pdf?dl=0

(password is [to see the] with spaces)


Time for me to read and critique myself!

I think the story would benefit from implementing those facts listed in the document.

And to provide an alternate opinion to the gender topic: I actually didn't catch that the main character was female until Crunched said something. Looking back, I'm kind of laughing because now the dialogue between Peter and Kendall makes more sense.

However, I like to look at it like this: If I was there in the scene, I would have already known what the character's gender was, or at least had some inkling to it before the end scene. So perhaps in the perspective of the main character, there could be something earlier on in the story to help clue the reader into this twist. She might say something that would appear or seem feminine despite the fact that she comes off as masculine, for the most part. I'm not sure how to go about this, but perhaps the answer could lie with her relationship with Yuri.

Just my thought on the topic.

 

[Izuna]

Maybe. I mean, as a very feminine man I don't think there are any hints that wouldn't be prejudice or cliché. It's Peter that confirms she's a girl, perhaps it could have happened earlier, or the fight in the kitchen should have been longer. I think if I was rewriting it I would give them more time in that scene.

I think whichever the next theme will be, I'd like to visit another part of this universe. I am getting too attached to my own story I think.

Every critique is very enjoyable to think about.

EDIT: Actually, I should have had Kendal think "all they do is donate money to Yuri's charity".

Yuri could be literally anyone until the last line.

 

[Red]

Why is it important to the story that we don't know Kendal is a woman?

 

[Izuna]

Why is it important to the story that we don't know Kendal is a woman?

It's just because the reader is likely to assume she is a man. That's it. Her thoughts are probably "ladette" but there is no indication she is male.

The same way that when she "cocks" the gun, it isn't just for dramatic (movie cliché) purposes, it's actually necessary before firing because of the gun she has.

(semi automatic guns don't need to be cocked before firing, but movies make people think they do)

This was the premise of the idea, anyway. She gives more detail about her thoughts on what goes on a sandwich... I mean, that was probably my least successful part. I have to get better at writing satire. 😆

 

[Red]

I think you're improving. Keep writing. Consider such twists in the future in a way that might reveal something to the reader about the story, the character, or themselves. An unexpected gender swap is a good starting point but it's only a step toward something meaningful. Why does it matter that Kendal is a woman? That's the kind of question that should be asked.

 

[Izuna]

I think you're improving. Keep writing. Consider such twists in the future in a way that might reveal something to the reader about the story, the character, or themselves. An unexpected gender swap is a good starting point but it's only a step toward something meaningful. Why does it matter than Kendal is a woman? That's the kind of question that should be asked.

I like there being practical purpose behind the things I write. For you, her being a girl is probably unsurprising, but that's the ultimate goal. For the readers who assume she is a man because of the situation, will think of a girl in that scenario.

For example, if she had a feminine character like say, caring about her nails or something, it would propagate stereotypes.

The writing itself and structure is one thing, but the purpose includes exploring the mind of someone who is morally corrupt, but without making them inhuman in the process. I like to think that since it's first person, Kendal is who she is, and so long as her personality is believable, it's okay to like her or hate her. But to have a plot that makes you ask if you do or don't.

For example, you talked about the possibility of making her more sympathic to the reader, but there shouldn't be any way to make such a character deserving of sympathy. That will depend on the opinion of the reader.

But yeah, this was an experiment mostly. I'm happy that criticism doesn't mention "it is hard to know who is talking", that was my biggest worry.

Furthermore, I don't think it's my thing for someone's sex to be a plot device. Stories that do that tend to have the most cliché or stereotypical portrayals of female characters. Like say, a main character who cries in the story or is frail.

 

[MilkBeard]

I like there being practical purpose behind the things I write. For you, her being a girl is probably unsurprising, but that's the ultimate goal. For the readers who assume she is a man because of the situation, will think of a girl in that scenario.

For example, if she had a feminine character like say, caring about her nails or something, it would propagate stereotypes.

The writing itself and structure is one thing, but the purpose includes exploring the mind of someone who is morally corrupt, but without making them inhuman in the process. I like to think that since it's first person, Kendal is who she is, and so long as her personality is believable, it's okay to like her or hate her. But to have a plot that makes you ask if you do or don't.

For example, you talked about the possibility of making her more sympathic to the reader, but there shouldn't be any way to make such a character deserving of sympathy. That will depend on the opinion of the reader.

But yeah, this was an experiment mostly. I'm happy that criticism doesn't mention "it is hard to know who is talking", that was my biggest worry.

Furthermore, I don't think it's my thing for someone's sex to be a plot device. Stories that do that tend to have the most cliché or stereotypical portrayals of female characters. Like say, a main character who cries in the story or is frail.

Thinking about what makes a character feminine or masculine is something that takes a lot of consideration of the character itself and the reader's perception. We know that the character has masculine qualities so 'caring about her nails' would betray her character. The fear of being cliche might be limiting your scope, though. You shouldnt be afraid to play with ideas accepted by society, as satire embraces them and turns them inside out. There is a fine balance to strike in there somewhere, I'm sure.

Not that I'm good at doing this, though. I'd ideally like to be able to produce pieces that have subtle allusions to satire.
But we are a group of writers bouncing ideas off of each other, to grow and help each other.

And as crunched said, keep going. It will surely develop.

 

[Red]

Izuna, without sympathy for your characters we have no reason to relate to them as human beings. They become victims of convenience and exist only to further the plot. Villains need especially to be handled sympathetically. Humbert Humbert in Lolita is a hebephile, but he remains sympathetic. We hate him and care for him at the same time. Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment begins his journey by mercilessly beating an old woman to death. He is one of the most relatable characters in fiction. Even Satan in Paradise Lost, the progenitor of all evil in the world, is presented with such empathy that he is often considered a hero. There is no reason Kendal should not be granted empathy and be made a more sympathetic character. Her misdeeds do not define who she is.

When you say you do not want to use her sex as a plot device, I think you are misunderstanding the posture of your story. By making her sex less of a secret, it becomes less of a plot device. Right now it functions as a gotcha! It functions as a plot device because it is meant to be a surprise for your reader. No matter who your character is, sex informs her lifestyle. She does not need to behave stereotypically. She can behave exactly the same way she does now. But what purpose does it serve her, and this story, by withholding crucial information about who she is? If the answer exists in a realm outside of this story itself, you should reconsider your motivations.

You can retain your idiosyncrasies while considering other options. Our feedback is only meant to suggest different avenues you might explore, different perspectives. You don't have to agree with me, or with anyone else. But you should not get too locked into your original ideas, or you'll have trouble growing.

 

[Mike M]

I'm not going to be able to do write-ups this week. If anyone wants to know what I thought, hit me up with a PM.

Votes:
1. mu chephi
2. Sober
3. Nezumi

 

[Red]

What happens when everyone PMs you?

 

[Mike M]

What happens when everyone PMs you?

Eh, I've bailed like this a couple times before. Nooooobody ever does.

But seriously, just being able to get back to anyone who's curious on my own schedule rather than rushing to dump 2K+ words before everyone moves on to the next thread would be way more manageable for me right now.

 

[MilkBeard]

One thing I've found interesting is trying to find the balance of fitting a concise idea within the word limit.

The more complicated the story, the harder it's going to be to tell it well within a tight word limit in the range of 2-3 thousand words. Perhaps next time I'll try to limit the scenario a bit, and try to tell the story in a different form. I'm mostly used to writing a story with a limit over 3k.
The shorter the story, the less room you have to breath, and the trickier it becomes to express an idea.
Employing techniques like creating past events and other details for the characters and the world that you can show with few words, sprinkled throughout the story, gives a lot of depth.

Crunched's story has good examples of this. You will have a scene, which is happening in the present, but the actions are shown simply, and the descriptions elude to other elements of the story: other characters, feelings, past events, etc.

I've been able to write in a way similar to this in the past, but in those instances, I wasn't worrying about word limit. I suppose that invisible restriction kind of changes how I would focus a story. But I think, to better be able to handle this, it's probably a good idea to know how to limit the scenario and yet be able to express little details of the bigger picture with few words.
I suppose it's just a matter of practice and continuing to improve over time.

 

[Red]

There are different approaches. I had virtually no experience with flash fiction or short short stories until last year, so I bought a few books which not only featured brief stories but also discussed the craft. Check out Sudden Fiction and The Rose Metal Press Field Guide to Writing Flash Fiction. There are others, but I think those two provide a good balance of theory vs practical work.

Some of the entries this round feature extensive telling. I don't think they suffer for it, but that's not my bag. I like putting things in scene. I have a film background so I think visually, I think of cues in scenery and image, and the actions of characters. But being able to tell an effective history or describe a world quickly with specific detail, as summary or exposition, can be a strength. I'm thinking of mu cephei's introduction, and Nezumi's world building. They cover a lot of ground very quickly.

Read poetry. Few things cut as quick as a well-written poem. A good poet has an eye for detail, the important images and relationships that make an idea come to life. I think of these short short stories as a way of taking ideas that might be expressed in a poem and turning them into a narrative.

I mentioned a Stephen Minot essay earlier in the thread, and I'm going to try summarizing it later today, when I get the rest of my feedback up. It might be useful. Maybe not. But maybe.

 

[Cyan]

Man, between that and the five dollar words thing you might really hate my submission this week, Crunched.

 

[Tangent]

Hey just FYI, I just uploaded a new version of my story because the spelling for one of the main characters was botched up. I didn't change any content. (Though I would like to.)

 

[Nezumi]

Oh yeah, according to Milkbeards critic, I'd better do the same

 

[Red]

Man, between that and the five dollar words thing you might really hate my submission this week, Crunched.

As the great philosopher J.B. once said, "All you got to do is listen to your deepest feelings."

I wouldn't judge a story by the guidelines I try to stick to. No one should be boxed in. It's great that these challenges can be a playground for ideas.

 

[Izuna]

It's not that I'm being stubborn, I appreciate the criticism. It's just that but if I implemented what you are talking about, it wouldn't be what I was trying to do.

It was deliberate that there would be no reason to sympathise until later. If being a girl is that of that for someone, then it's too late too. It would be completely different if for some reason, there was any reason to think Kendal is a sympathetic. It's a strange suggestion when it's a deliberate decision.

It would be like criticising fantasy for not explaining how magic works scientifically.

The idea that sex implies anything to do with her lifestyle is exactly what I was trying to fight against. There isn't anything about Kendal being a girl that should take away from her identity as an assassin. Not her methods, ethics, complex reasoning or history. She is nothing but a killer, and her being a girl is meant to allow the idea that girls can have such a role.

If I gave away that she was female beforehand, maybe or maybe not people would judge her actions differently. If that's the case, then it's supposed to make them think that.

---

It's like that one thread on GAF, where the guy was arrested for robbing a bank and his daughter had cancer. The majority of posts felt sympathetic, until they realised what he also spent money on and on the alternative things he bought.

The absolute chronological order of these things don't help us judge, but when we find out. It may be the same once we have all the information, but we never do. What you find wrong about Last Call is what I was going for.

 

[Sethista]

It's not that I'm being stubborn, I appreciate the criticism. It's just that but if I implemented what you are talking about, it wouldn't be what I was trying to do.

It was deliberate that there would be no reason to sympathise until later. If being a girl is that of that for someone, then it's too late too. It would be completely different if for some reason, there was any reason to think Kendal is a sympathetic. It's a strange suggestion when it's a deliberate decision.

It would be like criticising fantasy for not explaining how magic works scientifically.

The idea that sex implies anything to do with her lifestyle is exactly what I was trying to fight against. There isn't anything about Kendal being a girl that should take away from her identity as an assassin. Not her methods, ethics, complex reasoning or history. She is nothing but a killer, and her being a girl is meant to allow the idea that girls can have such a role.

If I gave away that she was female beforehand, maybe or maybe not people would judge her actions differently. If that's the case, then it's supposed to make them think that.

---

It's like that one thread on GAF, where the guy was arrested for robbing a bank and his daughter had cancer. The majority of posts felt sympathetic, until they realised what he also spent money on and on the alternative things he bought.

The absolute chronological order of these things don't help us judge, but when we find out. It may be the same once we have all the information, but we never do. What you find wrong about Last Call is what I was going for.

I welcome the criticism as well, but some times I fel like this too. Some comments are that what I was going for didnt work for some people, and I think this is what you should think about, what is personal opinion or really wrong regarding structure on your story.

Some comments people made here on my past stories were eye openers for me, things like my exposition being not enough for the reader, or too much, etc. But comments about direction and what would work for them narratively speaking, I see it more of a personal opinion thing. Dont worry too much about it, are you happy with your story? If yes, that is enough.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

Tapping out this time. Don't have the hours to read them all.

 

[felon]

I don't expect I'll do this every time, but I decided to come up with an impression and critique for every entry. I think that challenging oneself to do so is a good way to prepare yourself to be critical of your own work. Please note that I intentionally included critique for every entry, whether or not I felt that the relevant flaw was major or even objective. It was hard to even come up with anything critical for a few of them!

Chunky - Call
I'd say the strong point would be the believable characters, but the weakness would be that it didn't set itself up much to invest the reader. There wasn't anything specific that I was waiting to see the resolution of or that I could wonder about until learning.
Besides that, while I get that they help a little with the pacing and setting the mood, the several mentions about the shadows and crane seemed a little disconnected when they're basically the only things that are repeatedly mentioned during the phonecall. Maybe the relevance of shadows could have been linked to the time of day, like for instance by suggesting something like that Mark had been putting off the call for so long that the shadows were growing as the sun set. The crane could have been linked to construction workers or whatever building was being made so that they could have prompted Mark to feel guilty about his status or success before the call, and that way the repeated mentions could have reinforced his fixation on that guilt. Those are just examples though and it wasn't that big of an issue. Overall, not bad and I can imagine that character writing being used to much effect.

izunadono - Last Call
I think I can appreciate the way you handled the unsympathetic protagonist. I get the sense that the line about her daughter, which would normally be used to inspire sympathy, was inverted by telling us that something she should care about was an afterthought. It also worked with the mention of important realizations early on. For criticism, I think certain things could have been expressed more clearly. Particularly at the end, the full narrative was made of the protagonist's thoughts from one moment to the next, but I don't think there was enough to prepare us for the relevance of the background info being referenced during the energy of the scene. I like how you found a lot of solid ways to suggest that the hit was legit and believable without having to pull anything impossible or ridiculous out of nowhere, but there also wasn't a sense of immediate recontextualizing of retrospective details that one might expect from a surprise like that. Lastly, maybe give yourself another proofread or two for sentence flow and structure in the future. Overall it was still pretty interesting though and I'd have liked to see the same story with a higher word limit.

MilkBeard - A Lapse of Judgment
I felt that this story did a great job of getting mileage out of the word limit. Nothing wasted there. It also built up the impression that it was part of a bigger and very different world easily and quickly. All I might say against it is that, while the format of being a glimpse into greater events was well-executed, I would have appreciated feeling like what takes place within the story is more important or meaningful on its own, not only with the implied context of the rest of the world being alluded to. As a whole, definitely a nice little chunk of fantasy.

Mike M - Calling Upon the Master
Malliant was a solid portrayal of a brilliant egomaniac and being antagonized by the one person he couldn't threaten made perfect sense. I stayed interested from one moment to the next, but I didn't get much out of the resolution amounting to a common aesop like the villain learning his lesson about vain ambition and pride. Still though, as the fable it was, I found it pretty solid.

felon - MOLE-MEN SEASON SIX
That's me.

Crunched - Smoke
Lots of small, clever details in the writing, not the least of which were the implicit and explicit uses of innuendo, making it a fun read. The characters and their interactions were well written, but seemed pretty common. Additionally, I think Gregory's apparent caring side comes in a little late and out of nowhere, considering it seems to shift Diana's attitude and the direction of events, but maybe that's just me. I like that this was written in a way that rewarded me for paying attention to the small details.

Ward - The Yearn for the Cup
I always like it when a story makes me wonder what's going on in general as opposed to just wondering about a concrete answer to a problem or question. That said, it didn't really go on to either clarify things or toy with the established obscurity much. It was short, maybe even too short, but it seemed like it could have been onto something.

Tangent - Vigilantism Contract Work
This one was very imaginative. You could have stopped at either the idea of Underdog Inc or just the insect society and still had a unique flavor, but you found a way to bring them together naturally. If I were to change something, it might be that the public's turn against Itsy seemed rather abrupt and out of nowhere. Besides that, it wasn't a huge problem, but it could have used another proofread or two. I liked the open-ended final note.

Sober - Over the Top
The sense of brotherhood between the soldiers was well written and believable. Freddie's death also had more of a sense of tragedy to it than I'd expect within such a short piece, so good job with that. On the down side, it was sort of bogged down by cliche. Nothing about the setting or the theme (not demonizing the war enemy) subverted my expectations or gave me anything new to think about. Still, it was well-written in the moment and worked with its style.

FlowersisBritish - Untitled
The tone was set well in this story. The interaction between Jorge and SevenEight was interesting and I would have liked reading more about it. SevenEight's memory sequence was a bit hard to follow though, and I found that the similarities of the AI's consciousness to humanity were sort of nebulous and unexplored despite their importance in the story, but I do like the idea of taking a first person, cerebral approach to an AI's emotional turmoil.

Cyan - Three Versions of the End of the World
A very interesting read. The fiction-laced essay is an engaging format, and the chosen topic only added to that. Besides that, bringing the author and his thoughts into the piece in the third part served as a good reflection of the previous text and it was interesting to see it contextualized by the speaker. What I found a little bit jarring was the way in which the work tries to make a point within the last couple of paragraphs. It felt sort of disconnected for it to posit the hopeful idea of rebirth in a speculative, wishful way that feels sort of weak on the heels of the cold, factual nature of the other two parts. Still, I appreciate the experimental approach and feel that, if taken as a proof of concept, it succeeds.

mu cephei - Museum Studies
I get annoyed when scifi is overly accommodating, and I don't think this fell into that trap. It doesn't try to make me relate to Rezhi simply by describing her as human or human-like, plus the other characters are pretty diverse, and not only from a superficial standpoint. With that said, I know it might have been hard to considering the number of characters and the word limit, but there wasn't much to anyone's personality. They say what they believe and why it matters to them, but they don't really sell it to me. I think the premise of the story, itself, was the strongest point.

Nezumi - Night of Song
I liked the telling of the fictional mythology, especially considering that in the context it isn't mythology. The setting it creates is pretty evocative and offers a lot of potential. While the pacing fit the type of story that was being told, I felt like the introduction and buildup took a relatively large portion of a story that was essentially about a culture and its non-mythology, but the somber ending worked with it well.

Ashes - Form & Substance
The snapshots of Hasina's life do a good job of painting a picture of the topics and people that are important to her. The way the characters interact also do well to define the differences between them. I did find, however, that the story almost completely focused on Hasina's victimhood, which is more about highlighting her circumstances than fleshing out her character -- something I think the story could have benefited more from. The rapid pace and shortness of some of the snapshots felt a little at odds with the tone of the piece, but I still think this method of telling it was utilized effectively.


As for VOTES

1st: Three Versions of End of the World
I'm a sucker for a good experimental style and blending fact and fiction in essay form is not at all a well-trodden format. Most importantly though, it was simply an interesting read the whole way through.

2nd: A Lapse of Judgment
I have next to no interest in total fantasy, but I recognize pure writing skill when I see it. A whole lot of flavor was fit into 2400 words here, which I admire.

3rd: Smoke
It was all in the details with this one. Lots of little ones worked hard to total more than the sum of their parts. I always appreciate it when a story gives me reason to focus on the little things.


Looking forward to the next challenge!

 

[Izuna]

1. Mike M
2. felon
3. Tangent

I had comments saved in an word document but it got lost... I was writing them when I didn't have reception (tube) then accidentally loaded the same document up on my computer. I've lost so many hours of work due to this same bug. Ugh.

But for the most part, I loved reading this.

Also felon! Thanks.

Can't wait for the next.

 

[MilkBeard]

Yeah, it's a good point that...it was very time consuming to read and critique 13 other stories. There's no pressure for everyone to write critiques for everything. I felt that it would be fair to do it, but I definitely won't have time every round. For most challenges, I'll probably adopt the style that I did last round, which was to comment on my selections and why I chose them. Perhaps if any particular writing stands out to me I might comment about that as well.

I welcome the criticism as well, but some times I fel like this too. Some comments are that what I was going for didnt work for some people, and I think this is what you should think about, what is personal opinion or really wrong regarding structure on your story.

Some comments people made here on my past stories were eye openers for me, things like my exposition being not enough for the reader, or too much, etc. But comments about direction and what would work for them narratively speaking, I see it more of a personal opinion thing. Dont worry too much about it, are you happy with your story? If yes, that is enough.

That's the nature of criticism, really. You have a group of people who come from different backgrounds and points of view critiquing each others' stories. It was the same in my short story class. There's a certain percentage of criticism that should be taken to heart, and then a certain percentage that is just simply the reader's viewpoint and not much more. Even still, it can be rough when your story is getting critiqued. Feels like a roasting, ha ha. But in the end it helps us to see how our stories are being perceived. If, perhaps, a good portion of your audience is misreading the work then perhaps there's something amiss, or not. It's up to each writer to decide whether to take that criticism seriously or not.

 

[Cyan]

I am grateful to the people who do critiques, and appreciate the work they put in (especially Mike M doing them damn near every time, the dude is a machine), but no one should feel obligated to do it. Especially when there are so many entries!

Sometimes a critiquer misses the point of your story. That's ok, it's going to happen that not all readers will get what you're going for. It's useful to ask yourself if there was something you could've changed to help them get it, but sometimes there's just a disconnect, and in that case that particular critique might not be helpful. It happens. I'd suggest, though, that it's usually better not to respond directly to a critique unless you're following up to get clarification from the person critiquing. Explaining yourself tends to come off as arguing with the critique. Not saying anyone's done anything wrong, I just think it's a useful rule of thumb. Helps keep critiques open and honest.

 

[Red]

I am grateful to the people who do critiques, and appreciate the work they put in (especially Mike M doing them damn near every time, the dude is a machine), but no one should feel obligated to do it. Especially when there are so many entries!

Sometimes a critiquer misses the point of your story. That's ok, it's going to happen that not all readers will get what you're going for. It's useful to ask yourself if there was something you could've changed to help them get it, but sometimes there's just a disconnect, and in that case that particular critique might not be helpful. It happens. I'd suggest, though, that it's usually better not to respond directly to a critique unless you're following up to get clarification from the person critiquing. Explaining yourself tends to come off as arguing with the critique. Not saying anyone's done anything wrong, I just think it's a useful rule of thumb. Helps keep critiques open and honest.

Yup. That's etiquette. It's best not to defend your own interpretation of your work. There are as many interpretations as there are readers. If someone comes away from a story not understanding something important you've tried to convey, be aware that the point can be missed, and either redress the fault or accept that not everyone will come away with the message you intended.

 

[MilkBeard]

Since we're close to the end of voting, I'm going to say what I was going for and what inspired my story, A Lapse of Judgment. This post deals with some situations that may be hard to read or talk about, so I'm going to give a trigger warning here.

-----

Those who are well versed in Greek mythology would probably see the similarities, but those who aren't will probably just see a fairy-tale that seems to take a dark turn.

Most of the characters in my story are modeled after characters in Greek mythology. Some of them I tried to make it obvious by the names, while others not so much.

Callie (full name Callista) is Callisto from Greek mythology. She was a beautiful nymph, and said to be loved by animals. She was (arguably) raped by Zeus. Her story varies from different writers, but she was later turned into a bear after it the truth was found out. She had originally made a vow to be a virgin. She was banished to the stars.

Plutus is basically Hades. Another name for Hades is Pluto. I tried to make it obvious here. Pluto was the lord of the Underworld, and was said to be greedy and wanted people there. He's also known to be the embodiment of wealth.

Rhadam is basically Rhadamanthus, who is, by Homer, said to be one of three figures that judges souls when they die. He was said to be strict, but fair.

The three women who take Callie away are modeled after Erinyes. The Erinyes were considered deities of vengence, and would try to point out those who made false oaths or committed evil acts. They were said to be guests of Hades in the Underworld. I never gave them a proper name because I couldn't think of anything good before the deadline. I figured it would come eventually.

Saarpa is modeled after Keres. They are evil spirits that hang around and look for souls to steal to the underworld.

Rabbi is, well, I'm not going to discuss it here. If you can understand who Rabbi is with my basic descriptions, then, well, that's great.

And last but not least, Alia is like Elysium, the land where heroes and saints go to live when they die.

Because of the nature of the story I chose, and the scenario I used to express it, after writing out the events I had little room to develop descriptions and deeper story hints. The story, when detaching its mythological influences, takes its own liberties. I also wanted it to be a reflection of how a woman might be treated when something happens to her that is considered unacceptable. They judge her using vague evidence. The orb, which depicts color based on people's emotions, is how Plutus draws people in. Then, they see a glimpse of a situation that might be incredibly complex, but they paint it as black and white.

I also find it peculiar that in Greek myth, a lot of the demons and creatures are female. There is also a lot of rape in the stories.

 

[Izuna]

Yup. That's etiquette. It's best not to defend your own interpretation of your work. There are as many interpretations as there are readers. If someone comes away from a story not understanding something important you've tried to convey, be aware that the point can be missed, and either redress the fault or accept that not everyone will come away with the message you intended.

Discussion is discussion at the end of the day. Debating criticism is taking to take in from both parties, but it's extremely helpful. It's still asking for clarification when pointing out that something may have been missed, because if the critique is in spite of noticing what was missed, then it still gives insight about preference.

To put this in context, while the critique of having a character have no sympathy-inducing description misses the point, it is still helpful to hear if it changes the view when pointed out.

Essentially, going one step further isn't about arguing, but two perspectives can really benefit if a clash of opinions isn't avoided. If I am responding to criticism im protest, it's because it is resonating with me. That entire process helps me take in foreign opinions completely. Perhaps that's specific to myself, but I highly appreciate it. I try to understand another point of view until I am capable of agreeing, but it's not helpful to do so if I am not willing to back up the alternative.

A simple example would be:

- Wine is gross as fuck, everything just tastes the same with minor differences

- The different tastes are subtle, yes, but that's the point. The variety in flavour and matching the flavour with cuisine is the exciting part

- But if I want to drink something, I don't want the possibility of having something that doesn't match

- Hence the point of wine, to find something that does match is part of the fun

~

Not that this is a real conversation, but Crunched critique was obviously foreign thinking from my perspective, as it wasn't what I was missing. Instead, I can understand his point of view far more with clarification.

If it's a negative experience for Crunched then I can refrain from doing so. Just want to point out that I enjoyed and learnt a lot.

Every writer should look out for their intended audience, but also understand it is perceived by the antithesis. Whether to broaden their work to make their audience larger, or at the very least, understand what makes their work inaccessible. There are writing styles I switch off on when I read for various reasons, and if that happens to someone from my work, I'd like to know why.

So to reclarify. I deeply appreciate the exchange here, and I apologise if it doesn't appear so.

 

[mu cephei]

1. Mike M
2. Nezumi
3. Ashes
HM: Tangent, Crunched

Comments will most likely follow tomorrow.

 

[Red]

1. Cyan
2. Mike M
3. Ashes
hm: MilkBeard, felon, flowers, Nezumi

Enjoyed a lot of these this round. Feedback will come... it's written but I need to type it up.

 

[Mike M]

I am grateful to the people who do critiques, and appreciate the work they put in (especially Mike M doing them damn near every time, the dude is a machine), but no one should feel obligated to do it. Especially when there are so many entries!

I actually feel kinda bad about skipping out, but the fact that others have filled the void takes the sting out of it.

Ah hell, maybe something quick.

Chunky: Needs more spaceships.
izunadono: Needs more spaceships.
MilkBeard: Needs more spaceships.
Mike M: I should have put in more spaceships.
felon: Needs more spaceships.
Crunched: Needs more spaceships.
Ward: Needs more spaceships.
Tangent: Needs more spaceships

Spoiler

Also, horrible missed opportunity to make the MC a dragonfly, those things are purpose-built for mosquito murder.

Sober: Needs more space ships.
FlowersisBritish: Needs more spaceships.
Cyan: Needs more spaceships.
mu cephi: Exactly the right quantity of spaceships.
Nezumi: Needs more spaceships.
Ashes: Needs more spaceships.

 

[MilkBeard]

I actually feel kinda bad about skipping out, but the fact that others have filled the void takes the sting out of it.

Ah hell, maybe something quick.

Chunky: Needs more spaceships.
izunadono: Needs more spaceships.
MilkBeard: Needs more spaceships.
Mike M: I should have put in more spaceships.
felon: Needs more spaceships.
Crunched: Needs more spaceships.
Ward: Needs more spaceships.
Tangent: Needs more spaceships

Spoiler

Also, horrible missed opportunity to make the MC a dragonfly, those things are purpose-built for mosquito murder.

Sober: Needs more space ships.
FlowersisBritish: Needs more spaceships.
Cyan: Needs more spaceships.
mu cephi: Exactly the right quantity of spaceships.
Nezumi: Needs more spaceships.
Ashes: Needs more spaceships.

Damn. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Tangent]

1. Crunched
2. Nezumi
3. MikeM
hm mucephui

If I can, I will try to write up some feedback tomorrow while eating lunch.

Thanks for feedback, everyone! I haven't read them yet but did happen to see MikeM's and I'm so flattered that I got to hear even more than just the suggestion to use more spaceships. Agreed, every story should use more spaceships. About

Spoiler

dragonflies

: the thing is, everyone loves

Spoiler

dragonflies

. In fact, I'm thinking of painting a 4' long dragonfly on one of the walls of my house. So, once the scare is over, nobody would be scared of a

Spoiler

dragonfly

. But arachnophobia PROBABLY exists in the fairy world for all I know.

 

[Red]

A few notes on the Stephen Minot essay I keep bringing up:

There are at least five different traditions short-short stories derive from:

1.) The Experience
Sudden, personal. "You'll never believe what happened!" Writers making intricate what talkers do carelessly. Vivid, intense, dramatic. Highly personal, even when made up.

2.) The Anecdote
Less personal, more structured. Shape often more important than feeling. "More classical than romantic." Think O. Henry.

a.) The Joke
An anecdote that surprises us into laughter.
b.) The Parable
An anecdote that delivers a lesson.

i. The Fable
A parable that deals with animals.​

3.) The Speculation
'Idea is everything; ingenuity reigns." Mentions Borges ("what kind of building would house a library which contains every single piece of knowledge?"), Barth ("what's it like for a sperm struggling upstream... toward an ill-defined goal?"), Barthelme ("What would it be like to herd a flock of au pair girls across the plains?"). "Character and even plot become subservient to theme... often no narrative build-up, sometimes no plot whatever... cousin to a highly illustrated essay."

4.) The Dream Story
Think Joyce Carol Oates. Mood stressed more than theme. Accounts which defy precise thematic analysis. "Tone is everything." A vividness analysts cannot pick apart.

5. The Poetic Story
"... Not to be confused with prose poems which are often prosaic fragments written in short lines for no apparent reason." Rich in auditory effects ("alliteration, assonance, rhythms of syntax and repetition"). Imagery more highly valued than narrative structure.

He also mentions how as fiction lengthens, to a story, novella, novel, the concerns tend to change, to favor "complexities of plot, subtleties of characterization, and the portrayal of social scene."

I think there is some truth to this. It probably won't help anyone write better, but I think it's interesting to note.

 

[Ashes]

I am grateful to the people who do critiques, and appreciate the work they put in... Helps keep critiques open and honest.

Totally. As I always say, best to be humble and open to blind idiots who don't understand your genius. Wait scratch that I meant you should be okay with people's opinions, because there will always be someone, especially on the internet, who will think your work is pointless gobshite, but are too nice to say so. Wait, who am I talking about? WHAT AM I IMPLYING?

Spoiler

more contradictions. Just hidden underneath spoiler tags to annoy people. Cause isn't that awesome funny.

 

[MilkBeard]

Totally. As I always say, best to be humble and open to blind idiots who don't understand your genius. Wait scratch that I meant you should be okay with people's opinions, because there will always be someone, especially on the internet, who will think your work is pointless gobshite, but are too nice to say so. Wait, who am I talking about? WHAT AM I IMPLYING?

Spoiler

more contradictions. Just hidden underneath spoiler tags to annoy people. Cause isn't that awesome funny.

Be humble, yeah that's a good thing to learn. I always get too attached to my stories, to the point where I can't see them clearly sometimes.

And, if people ask for more spaceships, give them the friggin' Mothership.
Romance? Spaceship. Mystery? Spaceship. Poetics? Spaceship spaceship spaceship! All the bases are covered.

 

[Sober]

More comment-like than critique-like:

Chunky - I think you captured the emotion very well and some of the metaphor and imagery is pretty good. One thing I would be careful of when going over again is having a consistent tense. It fluctuates back and forth from present and past tense, sometimes in the same paragraph, which is a little annoying (and I usually don't notice, but here I did) and inconsistent. Either one is fine, just be sure to pick whichever and commit to it. Dialogue is good, the only thing nagging at me is also the formatting of it which was I think the reason sometimes it was hard to follow. With how you formatted your story each dialogue line break should be indented.

izunadono - Interesting premise and I like the narration of the main character, and a lot comes through from that. But I feel like it slowly gets a little more ridiculous as it steps further out from 'eccentric hit(wo)man with a weird M.O.' into complete buffoonery. The FBI twist at the end is a little weird because it really isn't explained very clearly how the agent knows the M.O. or not.

MilkBeard - Very mythological feel to this story. The ending feels a little abrupt, or that there should be more to this story afterwards.

Mike M - I was kind of hoping that you were gonna contrast the weird dark magic/Lovecraftian imagery with having the apprentice incessantly calling his former master to get his approval, but I liked how it ended nonetheless. Comedy option I suppose?

felon - I can definitely see why you kept going past the word limit. Seems like a really ripe topic to explore. I really do wish more time was spent with the two of them alone in the middle of nowhere. Obviously you did, so I'll try to remember to read the longer version in that case.

Crunched - Very evocative and I liked the tension between the characters, even if the premise seems a bit passe. Lots of good details in there as well.

Ward - Interesting reversal on how children feel about adulthood. The scarce amount of details definitely makes me want to know what kind of world it is that would have people thinking and acting this way. Very mysterious!

Tangent - You always have a way of taking the seemingly normal and making it refreshing. And it's true that spiders get a raw deal, at least when compared to mosquitoes!

FlowersisBritish - The thing I wasn't sure of on a first read was that the middle segment is purposefully fragmented? I feel like if that's the case (it seems that way) then there should probably some better ways to divide those segments up. I think I got the gist of when a scene started and finished but it could've been done just as easily without subtracting from the purpose of those scenes colliding together. Other than that nagging issue I liked the story. Maybe I just like stories where robots gain sentience and question their newfound humanity.

Cyan - I don't know if there's much to say about your piece other than I learned quite a bit. But I like the hopeful ending; that the end of something merely paves the way for something new. Even if we're too dead to witness it.

mu cephei - Cool take on the future, where life only existed on Earth and much later everyone returns but everyone is changed so drastically? That sounds about right, is it not? Cool to see each species was well drawn out and each had their own reasons to coming to the museum and the planet.

Nezumi - Very evocative. I really like the imagery, especially since it surrounds something that reminds me of a creation mythology.

Ashes - This was particularly a bit of a sad read for me. I definitely liked the overall structure you were playing with. But it just feels a lot like misery porn to me, which I've just been growing adverse to.


Votes:
1. felon
2. Tangent
3. Mike M
HMs: Ashes, Flowers, Crunched, mu cephei

 

[MilkBeard]

Misery porn. Never heard that description before. I kind of like it?

 

[Izuna]

When is the new thread up, my fingers need to be fed key presses.

My mind is leaking inspiration before I know the theme.

My time is being used up by page refreshes.

If I repeat this dire circumstance any longer, I just might implode.

 

[Ashes]

Misery porn. Never heard that description before. I kind of like it?

You are a quick reader jeez!

Sober
Member
(Today, 07:24 AM)

MilkBeard
Member
(Today, 07:29 AM)

 

[Cyan]

Votes:
1. Mike M - "Calling Upon the Master"
2. Crunched - "Smoke"
3. FlowersisBritish - "Why is Six Afraid of Seven"

Next time I'm writing about a spaceship. And all the people on it call out their moves.

 

[Ashes]

Votes:
1. Mike M - "Calling Upon the Master"
2. Crunched - "Smoke"
3. FlowersisBritish - "Why is Six Afraid of Seven"

Next time I'm writing about a spaceship. And all the people on it call out their moves.

I refuse to vote the exact same as you. So lock this shit up. ahem.

edit: hm Tangent, Nezumi

 

[MilkBeard]

3. FlowersisBritish - "Why is Six Afraid of Seven"

That...is a brilliant title.

 

[Izuna]

That...is a brilliant title.

Because the chicken crossed the road.

 

[Nezumi]

1.) Mike M
2.) Tangent
3.) Cyan