John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
That's fair. NG used to come up in the rare meeting here or there with various places I've worked. Now reddit is in quite a few of conversations. Twitch however is in every one.
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NeoGAF - Vocal Minority or Important Voice?
- Thread starter uncleslappy
- Start date
That's fair. NG used to come up in the rare meeting here or there with various places I've worked. Now reddit is in quite a few of conversations. Twitch however is in every one.
Interficium
Banned
Any real influence GAF had on the industry has basically evaporated over the past five years, as the gaming-side community drove most of the industry vets/game devs away by gravitating, as a whole, towards the "angry gamer, pubs are greedy, devs are lazy" mindset. Adult professionals don't really want to have interactions with backseat devs who present themselves as technical experts but who have zero experience in game design or development, much less when they're being called liars, lazy, etc in process.
On the other hand, GAF still has tremendous influence on the enthusiast press. Faced with increasingly bleak prospects, places like Kotaku have leaned into appealing to the super-core audience that wants things like muckracking, outrage-of-the-week, tabloid-style reporting on game dev company personnel, and leaks. What's the best place to find those? GAF, of course.
On the other hand, GAF still has tremendous influence on the enthusiast press. Faced with increasingly bleak prospects, places like Kotaku have leaned into appealing to the super-core audience that wants things like muckracking, outrage-of-the-week, tabloid-style reporting on game dev company personnel, and leaks. What's the best place to find those? GAF, of course.
silvermember
Banned
Vocal insignificant population, that gives more praises to itself than it deserves.
You should never listen to a group of people especially those who have constantly proven to lack the ability to understand the design process.
You should never listen to a group of people especially those who have constantly proven to lack the ability to understand the design process.
NeoGAF and Reddit aren't really comparable in my opinion. The former is one large forum, the latter is a huge website with tons of little forums. We'd be a really popular subreddit called /r/GamesIndustry on there at best.
I think Reddit's influence on everything related to gaming (besides the obvious fact it is way more popular than GAF and thus more important) lies within its dedicated communities, not the site as a whole, and that influence greatly varies in significance. Subreddits like /r/LeagueofLegends are almost like a direct way of communicating with the developers and they pretty much listen to all feedback posted there, meanwhile I don't think /r/Gaming has more influence on the industry than NeoGAF does.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Neogaf is too diverse to classify it as one entity, but if you go by the average user, we're nothing too special. Whether it's reddit, 4chan, gaf, or wherever, the average user plays popular AAA console games like call of duty, destiny, and assassin's creed, just like everywhere else.
Tastes only seem different on Neogaf because, unlike other communities, niche gamers, enthusiasts, and other groups of relative minorities actually have a voice and can (sometimes lol) discuss their opinions without getting drowned out by the hordes.
Tastes only seem different on Neogaf because, unlike other communities, niche gamers, enthusiasts, and other groups of relative minorities actually have a voice and can (sometimes lol) discuss their opinions without getting drowned out by the hordes.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
I agree with this guy.
If the gaming industry listened to GAF, we'd likely never see a hot girl in a bikini in a video game again. I think that is something a large number of gamers DONT want to see happen.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
vocal minority. a long time ago, when there were more industry people posting here, it might've been somewhat influential. these days, this forum has neither influential posters nor a huge userbase
opinions on certain topics/games here are also sometimes the opposite of what you see on most communities too. gamergate and totalbiscuit are two recent examples, but if you go back you'll see plenty of instances. for example, during the ps2 days, zoe2 was well known and universally praised here while elsewhere people had never even heard of it, even on other dedicated gaming forums
if the forum was as influential as some people want it to be, that definitely wouldn't be the case. there's also other things to cite to back that up, like none of the memes that started here ever getting popular elsewhere, or none of famous posters from here ever amounting to anything merely by virtue of posting here rather than working on the gaming industry. the most famous neogaf poster is, who? ******/opa? and he hasn't even posted here for like a decade or something. and lol at his name still being censored after all this time
opinions on certain topics/games here are also sometimes the opposite of what you see on most communities too. gamergate and totalbiscuit are two recent examples, but if you go back you'll see plenty of instances. for example, during the ps2 days, zoe2 was well known and universally praised here while elsewhere people had never even heard of it, even on other dedicated gaming forums
if the forum was as influential as some people want it to be, that definitely wouldn't be the case. there's also other things to cite to back that up, like none of the memes that started here ever getting popular elsewhere, or none of famous posters from here ever amounting to anything merely by virtue of posting here rather than working on the gaming industry. the most famous neogaf poster is, who? ******/opa? and he hasn't even posted here for like a decade or something. and lol at his name still being censored after all this time
The answer truly is both. We represent the hardcore group. Out of everyone in the whole world we represent the people who care the most about games, play the most games and will be the most loyal to the gaming industry.
However, don't mistake that we are the vocal minority. The casual crowd makes up the majority of people that buy games. I think some people on GAF get on overinflated ego by just being on this forum and think that they are bigger than they are.
However, don't mistake that we are the vocal minority. The casual crowd makes up the majority of people that buy games. I think some people on GAF get on overinflated ego by just being on this forum and think that they are bigger than they are.
ForsakenLotus
Member
It probably would behoove developers to read NeoGAF, but it's important to understand that NeoGAF has, in general, certain perspectives that don't necessarily reflect the gaming public at large. In fact, I would go as far to say NeoGAF often clashes with popular public opinions.
LordOfChaos
Member
I'd say more important than many (most?) gaming forums, but not as important as some would like to think. We're hardly the be all end all.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Yup both.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
also, people seem to think that the opinions here are basically only contrasting against the super casual, madden/call of duty player who buys 2 games a year, and everyone who posts here is a super hardcore videogamer who disagrees with the aforementioned audience by principle of being two opposites of the gaming spectrum. i disagree. most posters here these days seem really casual. not cod/madden casual, but my point is that the average poster here doesn't really represent hardcore gamers as you'd like to believe it does
how often do i see people praising games like the last of us? journey? and similar "experience" videogames? movie-like games, even, sometimes. there's obviously a broader spectrum of gamers these days, especially with cellphone gaming becoming bigger but i still think the forum is a lot more casual than what it considers itself, and even more casual if you compare it to, say, the beginning of the ps3/xbox 360 generation or before
how often do i see people praising games like the last of us? journey? and similar "experience" videogames? movie-like games, even, sometimes. there's obviously a broader spectrum of gamers these days, especially with cellphone gaming becoming bigger but i still think the forum is a lot more casual than what it considers itself, and even more casual if you compare it to, say, the beginning of the ps3/xbox 360 generation or before
Live Free or Die
Banned
No developer should take this site or others into consideration when making a game. The game should be based off their own vision in what the game should be.
Yeah this kind of stuff already happens with many smaller subreddits. /r/runescape for example has practically become the new fourms for that game. Staff from Jagex posts and read on there, and many people post "ninja requests" for small things they would like to see updated, which many do get updated. I haven't really been playing Runescape for over a year now, but at least back then there were definetely a lot of updates that happened because of Reddit posts.
I suppose that is about as hands on as it gets for an example, and also its an MMO with low risk financially to push updates versus publishing an entire game because of a Reddit post. Just an example I guess.
I...uh...
Yeah, NeoGaf is definitely a vocal minority with some incredibly out of touch members.
I would pose that GAF is an important voice of the vocal minority. The vocal minority being the hardcore gamer, who is engrossed by the industry. I believe GAF represents a more level-headed discussion forum of the industry, and can play a significant enough role in the fan-developer relationship. That being said, we most definitely are the minority, that doesn't (and shouldn't) dictate game development/trends.
KillerIsJed
Member
I'd have to say both. Just because you are the minority in opinion doesn't mean your opinion is wrong. People used to think slavery was a okay, and that was the norm.
That being said, every community kind of finds their voice and leans in certain directions, some more than others. I think as far as a more intelligent / well moderated community goes, people should listen to NeoGAF to a certain extent.
That being said, every community kind of finds their voice and leans in certain directions, some more than others. I think as far as a more intelligent / well moderated community goes, people should listen to NeoGAF to a certain extent.
Cutter Jones
Member
“If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them.”
- Joe Kuharich, 1967
- Joe Kuharich, 1967
Interficium
Banned
Welp.
DirtyLarry
Member
I am a member of Neogaf as gaming news hits here first. That is the beginning and the end of why I am a member.
You know how I browse threads on Neogaf? No matter how many pages it may be. It is the same for 3 page threads as it is for 250 page threads. I read the 1st page and the last page. That is all. Yep, the cat is out of the bag. I am a bad member and not a true part of the community. Thing is that is a very conscience decision as guess what? I still enjoy video games. I feel like way too many people here do not. Their focus is on everything except the enjoyment.
It has nothing to do with the fact that I am part of some hive mind. That somehow Neogaf represents my best interests when it comes to video games. In fact more often than not, I find it is the exact opposite. People nitpicking shit and destroying the very essence of why I play video games to begin with. To have fun.
You know how I browse threads on Neogaf? No matter how many pages it may be. It is the same for 3 page threads as it is for 250 page threads. I read the 1st page and the last page. That is all. Yep, the cat is out of the bag. I am a bad member and not a true part of the community. Thing is that is a very conscience decision as guess what? I still enjoy video games. I feel like way too many people here do not. Their focus is on everything except the enjoyment.
It has nothing to do with the fact that I am part of some hive mind. That somehow Neogaf represents my best interests when it comes to video games. In fact more often than not, I find it is the exact opposite. People nitpicking shit and destroying the very essence of why I play video games to begin with. To have fun.
hotnheavyload
Banned
Oh yes, I would totally agree. I know that Microsoft, for example, have taken a lot of what their Reddit community says to heart concerning the Xbox One and acted on it.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Interficium
Banned
NeoGaf isn't paying anyone's bills.
Mihos
Gold Member
You have my full support in this fight
Kageshinzo
Member
Please. NeoGAF is more like the hair on the back of the hand.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I like GAF, but I read a lot of opinions that just make me smh as much as I do anywhere else. We all have different taste, interests, priorities etc... we may think things out a bit more or try to articulate it better, but it's really the same stuff. My hardcore is someone else's niche.
One thing we're good at, and often on the same page with, is dogpiling stuff we think is anti-consumer bullshit into the ground. That might be the unique quality: the discerning enthusiast. Spotting bullshit is something I don't think publishers like and want to engage with. Why work to please us when you can just leave us behind and go for the easy marks?
One thing we're good at, and often on the same page with, is dogpiling stuff we think is anti-consumer bullshit into the ground. That might be the unique quality: the discerning enthusiast. Spotting bullshit is something I don't think publishers like and want to engage with. Why work to please us when you can just leave us behind and go for the easy marks?
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Pretty sure we all buy games and help support these devs/publishers with our money. I'm guessing they use that capital to help pay bills.
Interficium
Banned
We are a target. The hardcore community. An important target but definitely not the biggest for a vast majority of genres.
If I were developing some niche title, GAF's input would be extremely important. For an annualized title, were extremely out of touch with the market though. Compare GAF sentiment to sales data.
If I were developing some niche title, GAF's input would be extremely important. For an annualized title, were extremely out of touch with the market though. Compare GAF sentiment to sales data.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
MikeE21286
Member
The interesting thing about Twitch (much like YouTube)is that to me...it feels impenetrable. There's no ability to actually search and find content. Which for me kills the community nature of it.
No discussion happens there. It's basically just the vessel to broadcast. The discussion happens on Reddit, NeoGAF, Twitter, etc. That makes the latter so important
The Shogun
Banned
Its a bit of both.
There's a reason Adam Boyes, Major Nelson, etc have accounts here and make jokes with us and aim to make this community happy. Dont kid yourseves GAF is a force. Because what happens here often spills into the larger publications like Kotaku, IGN, ETC. As someone who works on the retail side of the industry, trust me threads and posts here are being read by some very important people.
THAT BEING SAID, what GAF represents is not reflective of the broad demographic a lot of the time. Your average consumer for one thing is far less nit picky.
Edit - Also yes Reddit, YouTube and Twitch are a far bigger deal
There's a reason Adam Boyes, Major Nelson, etc have accounts here and make jokes with us and aim to make this community happy. Dont kid yourseves GAF is a force. Because what happens here often spills into the larger publications like Kotaku, IGN, ETC. As someone who works on the retail side of the industry, trust me threads and posts here are being read by some very important people.
THAT BEING SAID, what GAF represents is not reflective of the broad demographic a lot of the time. Your average consumer for one thing is far less nit picky.
Edit - Also yes Reddit, YouTube and Twitch are a far bigger deal
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
It's not discussion that's important.
It's eyeballs, and content. Twitch is the best way to get the most eyeballs on your game content because there are influencers that get millions of views.
Neogaf is very talky
Aaronrules380
Member
Even if we consider all the unique views and not just individual posters (since most people visiting neogaf probably just read it and don't post much if at all), Neogaf isn't even a single % of the gaming population. If you consider the amount of people chiming in about any given game or issue, we're far far less. And given that we're an enthusiast board, we can't be considered representative of gaming (response bias and all that). The internet also provides the enormous disadvantage of anonymity. This means one person can post their opinion as many times they want under a different name each time with minimal effort, and unless you're in a position where you can check IPs to see if they're unique (and even this has work arounds), you have zero ways of knowing for sure, especially if what they're posting is written to be generic and doesn't have any clear personality give aways. This is also why internet petitions and fan movements are pretty much universally meaningless in games (People here like to act like Operation Rainfall helped us get Xenoblade in the US, even though Nintendo has gone on record saying that it had little to do with it, since such movements are really unreliable and ultimately a blip in the radar). Sure you've gotten 100,000 signatures to get a game released, but how many of them are actually unique people? How many of those signed with the intent of actually wanting the game, rather than acting on principle (you'll often see people say they aren't personally interested in a game, but supported the movement over on a wider principle), and how many of the rest would ultimately buy it? And even beyond that number, are there any people beyond the signers who would care?
Final Verdict
Member
I believe NeoGaf can speak for, or represent all the hardcore gamers across the globe, however, I don't think we can speak for the more casual crowd of gamers.
So yes they should definitely take our collective opinions into account, but try and connect with the hears and minds of the less hardcore people too.
It is a tricky balance.
So yes they should definitely take our collective opinions into account, but try and connect with the hears and minds of the less hardcore people too.
It is a tricky balance.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
i don't think any real developers or publishers give 2 shits about Gaf.
Aaronrules380
Member
Neogaf isn't representative of hardcores. It isn't representative of anything. Statistically, only a random sample is truly representative, and neogaf is hardly random. And people responding to any given situation on neogaf are even less random, since they're people who feel they have something to say on that issue, which usually implies a strong opinion. And often times on forums like this, many people with an opinion they believe is controversial won't share it for fear of backlash. Forums have absolutely no controls to ensure that there is even the slightest ability to represent a population. Even polls are more useful, and they're still far from ideal at understanding a population
Many people on here take themself way to seriously. The time when industry people were posting on a regular basis are long gone. Just look at this post, yeah he backpeddaled and everything but still.
How ignorant of the non english gaming community do you have to be to say such a thing? Even if you're only talking about the "western" english speaking gaming community that's a crazy number.
How ignorant of the non english gaming community do you have to be to say such a thing? Even if you're only talking about the "western" english speaking gaming community that's a crazy number.
Aaronrules380
Member
Another thing to consider in how trying to analyze Neogaf or other forums is fucking useless is that you'll often get two different threads on the exact same issue (or at least very similar ones), but because they're titled very differently, the opinions you'll get and how often you get them will vary drastically
CosmicQueso
Member
The Shogun
Banned
You know I do wonder how many devs post here 100% incognito. I wonder if its only a couple or if there's a decent amount that just don't say at all who they are or who they work for
Even taking into account the "talky" sites, I doubt NeoGaf is even remotely on the same level as Twitter/Reddit/Facebook for developer/publisher feedback.
A decent number of developers and people who work for publishers post on GAF or at least read it.
I agree that we don't occupy any sort of privileged position that makes us especially influential, however. We're just one of many places where they look for feedback.
Pathfinder
Member
Hence my edit, that you even quoted, where I demonstrated that I was corrected and that I learned something, but apparently that wasn't enough for you not come at me anyway.
Oh well.
Aaronrules380
Member
Honestly, I'd argue that shoutouts to the community are marketing stunts more than anything else. They're designed to make us think they care about us, and that they listen, but they're in no way reflective of actual developmental processes most of the time. If they decide to take advice from places like Neogaf, or even Reddit, youtube and the like, it'll likely be because they've identified that the average consumer has a problem with these things in the first place through more reliable means. Because we're very indepth and analyze everything, we can be a good source for getting ideas once you believe there is a problem. But it's an absolutely awful way to judge if there even is a problem in the first place
More Fun To Compute
Member
Executive from a large games publisher reads a forum and spends hours thinking about a post written by someone hired by another publisher to astroturf on games forums.