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[KAL2006]

I really wish 3DS had dual analogs

Not only do I prefer analog than the stylus for aiming and controlling the camera. But I hold the stylus with my left hand. So that means I will be fucked if a game decides to use analog and stylus controls at the same time.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I don't feel cheated at all. Nobody forces me to buy anything and I understand that I'm in the extreme minority here, but I sure feel left out of course. The lack of stereoscopic vision is a "handicap" that never bothered me in 38 years but with the massive industry push towards 3D I feel like I'm missing out. Especially as an avid gamer and tech enthusiast.

3D for movies and TV is a gimmick that never took off, and I don't see it taking off much more this time around but I think 3D for games will be a big deal. Just imagine playing table tennis in Sports Champions in 3D... I believe it will become an integral part of gameplay and I hope you fucks enjoy it.

*Slams door. Runs from room crying.*

If it makes you feel any better, as someone who CAN see stereoscopic 3D, I plan to turn it off on my 3DS most of the time. The fear of eye problems in the future is making me hesitant in overusing it. As long as the games are good, I don't give a shit how many Ds it is.

 

[swerve]

I'm blind in my right eye. If this thing isn't affordable, I'm going to have to sit it out until it is. It sucks because I've been a HUGE Nintendo supporter all my life.

Sure, you'll be missing out on the headline feature, but there is nothing that 3D can do for a game which affects gameplay to the extent at which it makes it unplayable in 2D. Just slide the slider down, and enjoy the latest games.

I have ok 3D (not perfect, but not far off) and I know that if I suddenly lost my right-eye (or left, for that matter) I'd still be getting this. Once the bleeding stopped.

 

[brain_stew]

When you fab a bunch of processors, of the ones that work, not all will meet the same clock speed. AMD and Intel have often sold the same processor with different clock speeds. You just bin them and resell them as a different model.

By targeting a low clock, they can improve yields significantly. Higher yields means that its much cheaper to manufacture. At lower clock rates, they can play games with the process technology that will also help yields and result in lower power.

ARM don't sell ARM11 designs that can't hit frequencies twice as fast as what Nintendo have clocked these chips at. These are underclocked chips, there's really no debate about this and none of them are going to have trouble running at a nominal ~50% higher clockspeed no matter how lax their speed binning is.

 

[WillyFive]

If it makes you feel any better, as someone who CAN see stereoscopic 3D, I plan to turn it off on my 3DS most of the time. The fear of eye problems in the future is making me hesitant in overusing it. As long as the games are good, I don't give a shit how many Ds it is.

I wonder how true these claims of eye damage can be.

In theory, stereostopic 3D is no different from real 3D. The problems with previous 3D techniques are due to the tech, like having to use glasses, or problems that come from exposure to such odd colors from red and cyan images.

 

[Chet Rippo]

This sounds exactly like what I was expecting from the 3DS. And it's more than enough.

This time next week we'll know the price, launch date, launch titles as well as likely knowing more about the OS and any online features. Fuuuuuck.

 

[Father_Brain]

I should note that there's no confirmation yet of an NoA 3DS event, so we may have to wait slightly longer to get the US launch details. (Probably not too much longer, since EA did say that more info on My Garden would be released sometime in October.)

 

[Rich!]

I should note that there's no confirmation yet of an NoA 3DS event, so we may have to wait slightly longer to get the US launch details. (Probably not too much longer, since EA did say that more info on My Garden would be released sometime in October.)

Nintendo announced the EU and USA release dates for the original DS at a Japanese conference, IIRC.

 

[charlequin]

64MB of RAM: I called it, but no one would believe it.

Who's "no one"? I know brain_stew and myself have been in almost every 3DS tech thread and both of us have suggested that literally the only options were 64MB or 128MB and it was just a question of which of the two it ultimately proved to be.

If a developer has a smaller budget they have more options to massage consumer expectations in favour of their product than before, they don't have to compete on a level playing field with the huge-budget devs. This elasticity I think will probably become less polarised between super expensive and super cheap...I have hopes the mid-range will fill out.

This is literally the exact opposite of the trend in the industry.

Console games now are in a situation where only AAA titles can "justify" their launch price and everything with lower production values bombs on release or gets pre-relegated to price points of $15 or below. Handhelds have largely avoided this due to an easier "AAA" standard to reach and lower prices across the board, but the 3DS is going to have this problem more significantly than the DS did and adding yet more power would, like it has on PS360, make the problem yet worse.

It's true that this trend isn't literally the sole inevitable result of increased power -- the PC space is playing out very differently, for example -- but it's the natural first-order result of increasing system power in a closed ecosystem with retail-centric distribution, relatively restrictive price points, and companies with a vested interest in competing on glitz.

 

[Mr.Green]

I wonder how true these claims of eye damage can be.

Very true!

YOU WILL ALL GO BLIND! BUT NOT ME! BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[Rich!]

I can see how eye damage is an issue with Polarized or similar glasses, or something that literally rapes your eyes like the Virtual Boy - but I don't see how it applies to the 3DS.

Looking at the 3DS would be no different to looking at anything else. It's not like your eyes are going to be strained by a filter or some kind of bizarre 3D device. It's just like looking into a normal screen. Only 3D.

 

[blu]

He's saying that the total pixel count is 7 times more for the iPhone 4 than it for the 3DS, and he's largely correct...except that it's closer to 6.

The actual ratio of 3.2 between 960x640 and 800x240 is closer to 6 than it's to 7. You're entirely correct.

The one area they definitely did "cheap out" in is the size of the main memory pool. 128MB really wouldn't have made all that much difference to Nintendo's bottom line but if this device really isn't going to offer many "non gaming" functions and Nintendo really don't want to design a nice ingame OS then its understandable why they made the choice they did. I feel it is rather shortsighted personally but if their vision for the device is set in stone then it really isn't a choice that is going to hamper that vision as much as some assume. 64MB of RAM is still quite a lot for a dedicated portable gaming device, Xbox level textures should more than suffice for a 3" screen and I really struggle to believe that this level of hardware could have made any real efficient use of more than 128MB.

Aside from the argments re what sense 64MB could have on such a device, nintendo might have had a very good monetary reason to stay with 64MB, and it's that Fujitsu, their DSi supplier of PSRAM (FCRAM) maxes out at 512Mb chips currently (but should have 1Gb in the works). Going from a 1-chip RAM design to multi-chip could change the BOM drastically for such a device.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'm not sure the argument that most iPhone games will have less effective RAM for usage than the 3DS really is quite as decisive as people want it to be. By--pick a year, say late 2012 or 2013--I suspect that the vast majority of new iPhone games will be limited to the iPhone 4 level.

I think it's fair to say that given that the current OS release doesn't support 3 phone generations ago, and doesn't extend most of its features to 2 phone generations ago, that by 2012, and given also that even the slowest to upgrade smartphone customers are likely to be on a 3 year upgrade cycle, it's fair to say that by Fall 2012 the comparison will be iPhone 4+ to 3DS if you choose to compare the two at all.

Now, I wouldn't take this post as being an argument that Nintendo sucks or that their hardware design blows or whatever other baloney people are peddling, just simply that I don't think the ease of comparing the current "lowest common denominator" for iPhone games to the 3DS's entire prospective lifespan makes sense.

 

[Koren]

In theory, stereostopic 3D is no different from real 3D.

It is... The distance change TWO things when you look at an object : convergence and focus. There, you'll have to focus on the screen, but use convergence before or after the screen.

I'm not convinced that that can cause real problems to eyes, especially if the effect is not too intense. But stereoscopic 3D is not exactly like real things. I wouldn't play 3D games for a very long time without resting.

 

[Dreamwriter]

If you're targeting all idevices then its much less than the 68MB that 3DS developers will have to work with, I'm not sure of the exact figure but its pretty damn small. I think that kinda puts the Iphone's bigger RAM size into account.

Now, if you're application is ES 2.0 exclusive, then yes you'll have access to more memory than 3DS games will, but not a whole lot more and certainly not even a 2x advantage. The RAM advantage will only be significant if your application is Iphone 4 exclusive.

So basically, at least 95% of iOS games have access to less RAM than 3DS games will. That really puts that 512MB vs. 64MB debate in perspective and shows how syupid comparing a smartphone to a dedicated gaming handheld directly is.

You apparently missed my post above talking about the specifics with this. You are incorrect, if an application is ES 2.0 exclusive, it has access to around 128MB, which *is* a 2x advantage.

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

well those specs are pretty much what I expected. in other words nintendo cheaped out!

yes it is more powerful than PSP, but you have to consider that PSP is 5 years old. it's nothing extraordinary to say nintendos *NEW* portable is more powerful than a 5 year old portable.

but I'm not really disappointed because this is in line with my expectations (always expect nintendo to be excruciatingly cheap). the autostereoscopic screen is by itself probably the most expensive component, and at least that made it out from nintendos Scrooge McDuck money bin intact.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I can see how eye damage is an issue with Polarized or similar glasses, or something that literally rapes your eyes like the Virtual Boy - but I don't see how it applies to the 3DS.

Looking at the 3DS would be no different to looking at anything else. It's not like your eyes are going to be strained by a filter or some kind of bizarre 3D device. It's just like looking into a normal screen. Only 3D.

Normal screens don't make your brain want to adjust your ciliary muscles, there's a reason it's not good for some people.

 

[swerve]

Powerful enough to make games as pretty as Super Mario Galaxy 2, in my hands, in 3D.

Sold.

 

[Rich!]

Normal screens don't make your brain want to adjust your ciliary muscles, there's a reason it's not good for some people.

Hm. I'll have to see what happens I guess.

Anyway, at least the guys unable to see 3D will get improved IQ and AA in 2D mode, going by that Capcom article!

 

[brain_stew]

Aside from the argments re what sense 64MB could have on such a device, nintendo might have had a very good monetary reason to stay with 64MB, and it's that Fujitsu, their DSi supplier of PSRAM (FCRAM) maxes out at 512Mb chips currently (but should have 1Gb in the works). Going from a 1-chip RAM design to multi-chip could change the BOM drastically for such a device.

Ah thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realise there was any viable RAM which was still limited to 512mb chips. I kinda (perhaps wrongly) figured that they'd just use LPDDR1/LPDDR2 for their main RAM but if they do use "PSRAM" then going with 64MB seems like a no brainer given that. I'm still unconvinced that games themselves would benefit all that much from 128MB anyway on this level of hardware and I'm totally convinced anything more than 128MB would have been a complete waste. Like I said before, I was hoping for 128MB more because it'd leave room for a decent ingame OS and make tasks like web browsing much more feasible.

 

[Father_Brain]

Nintendo announced the EU and USA release dates for the original DS at a Japanese conference, IIRC.

IIRC, they held US and JP press events on the same day in October 2004. It'd make sense for the US event to be later, if the system is indeed launching later here, as now seems likely.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

I really wish 3DS had dual analogs

Not only do I prefer analog than the stylus for aiming and controlling the camera. But I hold the stylus with my left hand. So that means I will be fucked if a game decides to use analog and stylus controls at the same time.

Upside down mode?

 

[brain_stew]

You apparently missed my post above talking about the specifics with this. You are incorrect, if an application is ES 2.0 exclusive, it has access to around 128MB, which *is* a 2x advantage.

Yeah, I did. I knew it wasn't a massive advantage as some were implying and was pretty confident is was 128MB or below. Still if you count the extra 4MB its still slightly less than 2x! :lol So, I was almost right, kinda, sorta.

 

[wsippel]

You apparently missed my post above talking about the specifics with this. You are incorrect, if an application is ES 2.0 exclusive, it has access to around 128MB, which *is* a 2x advantage.

And that means it's no longer compatible with all iDevices. Not to mention that even said advantage is mostly nullified by the dog slow mass storage. It's a joke to see load times of up to a minute on a handheld device, and it's not even using optical storage.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I said it would be 48 to 64 MB total, so I was slightly under.

 

[brain_stew]

I'm not sure the argument that most iPhone games will have less effective RAM for usage than the 3DS really is quite as decisive as people want it to be. By--pick a year, say late 2012 or 2013--I suspect that the vast majority of new iPhone games will be limited to the iPhone 4 level.
.

That may have been the case if the iPad and the new iPod had 512MB but they're both 256MB devices which limits them to 128MB per application as we've already established. The market share of 512MB+ devices is going to be small for several years now, so at best the vast majority of games will be limited to 128MB until at least 2013/2014, probably later. 128MB is more than 68MB for sure, but its not some huge advantage that will be impossible to overcome, especially since 3DS developers will have much lower level hardware access and will probably be relying on a faster storage device.

 

[Rich!]

IIRC, they held US and JP press events on the same day in October 2004. It'd make sense for the US event to be later, if the system is indeed launching later here, as now seems likely.

Ah yeah, a bit of googling shows you're right.

Either way, I don't mind if it's next year in the west (which it will be), I just want a price and date announced so I can preorder the thing. :lol

 

[Cow Mengde]

I wonder how true these claims of eye damage can be.

In theory, stereostopic 3D is no different from real 3D. The problems with previous 3D techniques are due to the tech, like having to use glasses, or problems that come from exposure to such odd colors from red and cyan images.

For me, it's more of a better safe than sorry kind of thing.

 

[mrklaw]

ARM don't sell ARM11 designs that can't hit frequencies twice as fast as what Nintendo have clocked these chips at. These are underclocked chips, there's really no debate about this and none of them are going to have trouble running at a nominal ~50% higher clockspeed no matter how lax their speed binning is.

why would you use 2 chips at eg 250MHz instead of just one at 500MHz?

Surely there is a minimum current required for a chip even if its doing almost nothing, or does the current requirement of a chip not scale linearly with speed? (eg does a 500MHz chip require more than twice the current of the same chip running at 250MHz?)

 

[Rich!]

why would you use 2 chips at eg 250MHz instead of just one at 500MHz?

Surely there is a minimum current required for a chip even if its doing almost nothing, or does the current requirement of a chip not scale linearly with speed? (eg does a 500MHz chip require more than twice the current of the same chip running at 250MHz?)

DS backwards compatibility? The DS had two processors.

 

[wsippel]

why would you use 2 chips at eg 250MHz instead of just one at 500MHz?

Compatibility would be my guess. The DS also has two CPUs. And since they're running at different clockspeeds, a regular multicore design was probably out of the question as well.

 

[brain_stew]

why would you use 2 chips at eg 250MHz instead of just one at 500MHz?

Surely there is a minimum current required for a chip even if its doing almost nothing, or does the current requirement of a chip not scale linearly with speed? (eg does a 500MHz chip require more than twice the current of the same chip running at 250MHz?)

BC and battery life.

Two lower clocked chips will often consume less power than one highly clocked chips and its a strategy many low power designs are persuing in order to eek out more performance. Intel's Atom, AMD's Ontario and ARM's own Cortex A9 and A15 all share a similar philosophy.

The NDS was a dual CPU design as well, so by using two ARM11 chips, BC is simplified and it probably means Nintendo didn't have to pack in an extra ARM7 or ARM9 (or both) in there as well.

Loading two CPU cores really isn't a difficult problem for game developers to solve these days, since most have been targetting 6+ threads for 5 years now and they already had to tackle the same problem on the original NDS.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Why so much love for the 4MB VRAM thing?

I'm asking because I don't know anything about this. Can someone talk about it and why is so good?

Gets rid of dithering I believe, which the PSP had an issue with.

 

[Mejilan]

Pretty sure that the DSi switched over to one processor, and it has no issues playing legacy DS software.

 

[wsippel]

Pretty sure that the DSi switched over to one processor, and it has no issues playing legacy DS software.

No, the DSi also has two processors. Nintendo simply clocked the ARM9 higher, the ARM7 is exactly the same as the DS's.

 

[brain_stew]

Pretty sure that the DSi switched over to one processor, and it has no issues playing legacy DS software.

I highly doubt that and its the first time I've ever seen it suggested.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I'm guessing hackers will have the cores fully clocked within a year or two.

 

[KAL2006]

The 3DS better be cheap, it should be no more than $200 at launch, and should go down to $150 after a year. The reason I say this is because it seems the components of the 3DS are not high end. The only expensive thing on the 3DS is probably the 3D screen, but a 3D screen isn't enough to justify a high price. I can guarantee in the future 3D screens on handhelds will be a common feature. Didn't sharp say they wish to see every smart phone with a 3D screen in the near future. I said this before, and I will say it again, an iPod Touch with 8GB flash memory is only $200 ($170 at most places), which is much more powerful than a 3DS, with a better screen with high resolution and scratch/glare resistant screen protector. Remember the original DS launched for $150, and GBA launched for $100.

 

[Lonely1]

Well, I said that 128 was the minimum for modern hand-held functionality. I.E. Web browser, Productivity Apps and Multitasking. Also, more RAM would have been beneficial in order to get ports from HD/PC consoles, stuff like Tomb Raider: TWoL would be better for me in Handheld form. According to the devs of the Wii CoDS, their main constrain was working with the Wii lower amount of RAM. But maybe the flash based storage will alleviate some of this issues, and the titles build from the ground for this probablye won't be limited by the amount of RAM.

 

[Varion]

Gets rid of dithering I believe, which the PSP had an issue with.

Oh thank god, the dithering was easily my biggest issue with the PSP's graphics. So horrible.

 

[Fantastical]

The 3DS better be cheap, it should be no more than $200 at launch, and should go down to $150 after a year. The reason I say this is because it seems the components of the 3DS are not high end. The only expensive thing on the 3DS is probably the 3D screen, but a 3D screen isn't enough to justify a high price. I can guarantee in the future 3D screens on handhelds will be a common feature. Didn't sharp say they wish to see every smart phone with a 3D screen in the near future. I said this before, and I will say it again, an iPod Touch with 8GB flash memory is only $200 ($170 at most places), which is much more powerful than a 3DS, with a better screen with high resolution and scratch/glare resistant screen protector. Remember the original DS launched for $150, and GBA launched for $100.

Price drop after one year?

Are you fucking serious? Nintendo will be fighting to keep this thing in stock anywhere.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Gets rid of dithering I believe, which the PSP had an issue with.

I'm pretty sure that's not an example if dithering, but rather banding in the colors.

Dithering are these little dots all over the image.

Look closely at this image of Dead Space Extraction. You'll see little dots all over the screen. They are very noticeable in the center of this image.

 

[Garjon]

It's actually a week from now.

It is 6 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes and 54 seconds until Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 10:00:00 AM (Tokyo time)

Good stuff, I might just stay up for that. Even if the price and a Western release date is all I really need to know right now

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

why would you use 2 chips at eg 250MHz instead of just one at 500MHz?

Surely there is a minimum current required for a chip even if its doing almost nothing, or does the current requirement of a chip not scale linearly with speed? (eg does a 500MHz chip require more than twice the current of the same chip running at 250MHz?)

power scaling wrt clock speed is logarithmic rather than linear.

 

[FoneBone]

The 3DS better be cheap, it should be no more than $200 at launch,

Yes...

and should go down to $150 after a year.

:lol Are you nuts?

 

[apana]

The 3DS better be cheap, it should be no more than $200 at launch, and should go down to $150 after a year. The reason I say this is because it seems the components of the 3DS are not high end. The only expensive thing on the 3DS is probably the 3D screen, but a 3D screen isn't enough to justify a high price. I can guarantee in the future 3D screens on handhelds will be a common feature. Didn't sharp say they wish to see every smart phone with a 3D screen in the near future. I said this before, and I will say it again, an iPod Touch with 8GB flash memory is only $200 ($170 at most places), which is much more powerful than a 3DS, with a better screen with high resolution and scratch/glare resistant screen protector. Remember the original DS launched for $150, and GBA launched for $100.

I think it will be $200 dollars at launch and my guess is that it will stay there for a long time.

 

[Vinci]

The 3DS better be cheap, it should be no more than $200 at launch, and should go down to $150 after a year. The reason I say this is because it seems the components of the 3DS are not high end. The only expensive thing on the 3DS is probably the 3D screen, but a 3D screen isn't enough to justify a high price. I can guarantee in the future 3D screens on handhelds will be a common feature. Didn't sharp say they wish to see every smart phone with a 3D screen in the near future. I said this before, and I will say it again, an iPod Touch with 8GB flash memory is only $200 ($170 at most places), which is much more powerful than a 3DS, with a better screen with high resolution and scratch/glare resistant screen protector. Remember the original DS launched for $150, and GBA launched for $100.

Components reflect the price, not the other way around. At least in Nintendo world.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Gets rid of dithering I believe, which the PSP had an issue with.

That is enough reason for me to jump on the 3DS and (hopefully*) PSP2.

*I say hopefully because I hope it exists and is released soon.

 

[Rich!]

I think it will be $200 dollars at launch and my guess is that it will stay there for a long time.

Yep. It'll be the same situation as with the Wii, with Nintendo fully exploiting supply and demand. I mean, fuck - the Wii has only recently had a price drop, hasn't it?

 

[Lonely1]

You apparently missed my post above talking about the specifics with this. You are incorrect, if an application is ES 2.0 exclusive, it has access to around 128MB, which *is* a 2x advantage.

And ES 2.0 exclusive apps are still rare. So he's right.