charlequin
Banned
Luigiv said:
Huh!
Luigiv said:
That I definitely do not believe you about, however. :lol
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New Nintendo 3DS Hardware Info (Conference At 10 PST/1 EST Today)
- Thread starter Chaplain
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Huh!
That I definitely do not believe you about, however. :lol
charlequin
Banned
Jocchan said:
You squandered an incredible opportunity here with that DBZ shot. :lol
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
XPE said:
I don't think we'd reverse the situation by saying "Nintendo give the impression that they'd rather throw themselves under the bus than designing hardware with input from western developers and middleware developers in specific", so I'm not sure why people make this kind of claim.
He works for a company that makes engines that heavily rely on a certain kind of design philosophy. His company has been very successful at what they do. Not only that, they'd been successful at convincing other hardware manufacturers at changing their hardware plans last minute to accommodate them in specific. They come from a PC development background, where the emphasis is on rapidly expanding graphics technology.
Nintendo is a company that designs hardware internally and apparently with basically no attempt to begin external developers into the fold until much later. They use graphics hardware that, while a valid choice, doesn't swing the same way most western developers do. Recently, they've demonstrated a commitment to economy--releasing an accessible, affordable product but also minimizing power use and footprint.
It's not hard to see why the two companies get along and I don't see the sense in blaming one or the other for this. Each will suffer the consequences of their decisions. There may be a future where Nintendo so desperately needs Epic's middleware or Epic so desperately needs Nintendo's addressable user base or one or the other is totally obliterated, but as of now they're both doing their own things successfully.
Luigiv said:
No while, it's short for cellophane the actual sheets (at least when referring to animation) are called Cels.
There's even a wikipedia article on cels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel
Careful what you speak on the Internet.EatChildren said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Lonely1 said:
I can't tell if the argument here is supposed to be that the PS3 unfairly gets a bum rap, or that you feel the PS3 criticism is accurate and thus Epic's platform decisions are schizophrenic if they don't develop for 3DS.
Either way I don't really agree.
The PS3 was not designed with developers in mind; the massive trouble everyone had adjusting to the asymmetric multiprocessor structure is testament to that. On the other hand, once ported, the functionality is pretty standard; programmable shaders. Moreover, it made sense to deal with the headache to begin with, because making UE3 multiplatform was necessary to drive adoption (IE UE3 PS3 lead to more people using UE3 360). It's not clear how a similar argument work work on 3DS. I do not expect many PS3/360/3DS multiplatform games in a hypothetical 2012.
I think I've pretty clearly laid out how Epic operates. They want things their way. Whether they'll participate on a system where things aren't their way is going to depend on what they perceive the benefits to be and how much extra work they perceive it to be. The same is true for Nintendo accommodating outsiders. I don't think that's "OMG Bias" on either part, especially given that both companies are doing very well acting the way they do.
Stumpokapow said:
It more of his attitude rather than what he has done, i cant remember what he said exactly but he wasnt overly complimentary of the wii, that fines not everybody like everything but he went out of his way to be negative and condescending about the wii, if it is was simply a case of the hardware not meeting their/his needs why not just say that and more on, there was no need for the tone or wording in which he put it.
Unlike the Wii, the Ps3 was a good target for their new Engine. That's why I believe when asked about Wii support, Epic said that they had UE 2.5 for it, which is true and makes a lot sense. But they did had support for the GC with UE2.5 and If now they are porting their engine to mobiles (unlike the PSP, which was UE2 capable) is fair to ask for a 3DS port.Gravijah said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
XPE said:
I think some people are colourful characters and unless they're posting on GAF I don't care if a developer says "The 360 is a giant piece of shit" or "The PS3's asymmetric processor setup makes developing inconvenient since we're used to just farming out a few relatively symmetric threads" or "Nintendo won't moneyhat me, fuck that I'm smoking m$ scrilla bitches". I think people read into off-the-cuff comments way too much and certainly internalize them way too much.
I have no doubt that a number of developers have made pretty silly one-liners about the Wii. "Duct tape" comes to mind. I would say that in general the people in the development community who make those comments, as well as comments about other systems, probably have more substantial stuff behind their opinions.
Setting aside what you know about Mark Rein personally (and I don't know anything, what's his favourite band? Does he like tortellini? Are his kids in private school?), Epic and Nintendo being a poor match for each other on a number of levels is pretty obvious. Maybe one or the other will shift philosophically in the future, maybe neither will to their detriment, or maybe they'll both continue being happy doing their thing.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I wonder how long we'll have to wait until we get NA/EU/AU release details, since this event is exclusively for Japan.
Father_Brain
Banned
Stumpokapow said:
...a feature which 3DS notably lacks, which might explain Epic porting it to ES 2.0 platforms like the iDevices and Tegra rather than 3DS. (DMP Maestro, of course, can still pull off most of the shaders that are common in Unreal Engine titles, but hey - I don't work for Epic.)
Father_Brain
Banned
Man God said:
IGN's article strongly implied via omission that there's no NOA event on the 29th. I'd be surprised if NOA announced the US launch date with a press release alone, but stranger things have certainly happened.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Man God said:
First I've heard of this, and as Papa Brain said IGN's article seemed to imply that they had no idea when we'd hear more from NOA.
Speaking of IGN, why do they state at the start of the article that they are attending the event, and then at the end specify that no foreign press are allowed to attend? Or is that just for the conference?
Father_Brain
Banned
EatChildren said:
Anoop (andriasang) is considered Japanese press.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Gravijah said:
AndriaSang's primary writer is Anoop Gantayat. He lives in Japan. He is IGN's Japanese correspondant (I think technically he's "Editor in Chief of IGN Japan" or something stupid, but...)
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Ta. I didn't know Anoop was linked to IGN.
charlequin
Banned
Luigiv said:
And I was wrong about Okami. It's all good.
Cow Mengde
Banned
The only Western 3rd parties that matter are 5th Cell, Wayforward, and Shin'en. As long as they're on board, then that's good enough.
brain_stew
Member
DonMigs85 said:
The clockspeeds will be the highest they can be while maintaing DSi level battery life. Nintendo wouldn't artificially gimp them for no good reason so if you care about battery life then there's just no way you can go about complaining about the clockspeeds chosen. Vent your dismay at the fact they're not using a Cortex A8 design with full NEON support by all means but don't pretend the clocks are what they are for any reason other than to increase battery life.
The GPU clockspeed is pretty damn irrelevant, what matters more is how many pipelines the 3DS iteration has and how much it was tweaked from the stock design. A dual pipelined design @ 133mhz will be much faster in games than a single pipeline design @ 200mhz but battery life may actually be better.
lostinblue
Banned
Truth to be told though, Mark Rein is a douchebag, and a big one at that.Stumpokapow said:
And I don't think he has input into chips ATi and Nvidia do, nor does he need to have input on the platforms in order to be on-board with them (and if we lay down the kind of PR he does, the kind of bullcrap he says is not always the companies best interest or view, but his propulsed on the fact he works there and can't keep his mouth shut; in short it's a fallacy of false authority, and he loves to overuse it).
Not supporting the Wii was a stupid decision, as not releasing middleware for every feasible platform is; even if they don't realize it. The fact they had to explain themselves and go out of their way so many times (which they did, in a bashfully stupid way) just aggravates how childish their philosophy looks and in reality is. They go with the platforms they want to support yes, and ignore the rest... But that's all there is to it, really.
The Wii has more RAM than a XBOX 1 and it's better on quite a few things, so why not releasing at least a enhanced "official" unreal engine 2.5 build for it? XBOX had Unreal engine 2.x custom optimized for it. And the results are obvious... Red Steel on Wii versus Splinter Cell Xbox, a game fighting it's engine (who thinks it's on a PS2) versus a game who works intrinsically with it's engine. Notice I'm not even saying they should have ported Unreal Engine 3, I'm saying having a branch of the Unreal Engine 2 meant for the PS2 running is not good enough for a market leader console, and while their prejudice clearly hurt the Wii they also lost clients and money they could have done otherwise.
And then we have the "we look forward... not back" argument that falls appart when their cutting edge *not possible to port* engine appears working on mobile phone hardware.
All in all, they do as they please, but the problem is... Their biggest revenue comes from selling their middleware and developers depending on their middleware often aren't amused by having to port their middleware themselves (ubisoft themselves had to port unreal engine 2 for the PSP, and some developer actually tried to port unreal engine 3 themselves, for the Wii... without much support from Epic nor the knowhow of the inner workings of the damn thing; plus, since they did it themselves not supported or available to purchase to anyone else). That or wait for "official" support and commitment warranted either by moneyhatting (PS3) or because they were pressured so much they had to gave in (and when that's the case they're often lazy).
They're entitled to moneyhatting to do what they should be doing in the first place now, because they're "relevant" but if they keep being childish and stupid businesswise, as I insist they're being (letting money on the table in this industry for stupid pride reasons is not being smart) Then I'd say they might just stop being that relevant one of this day's (generations)
Not supporting the 3DS... Would be really, really, really stupid. But they're capable of it.
Couldn't Nintendo just use a bigger battery to compensate for increased power cinsumption. The latest smartphones have giant batteries, making the 3DS battery just half the size of those would mean they could keep the high clockrates without sacrificing battery life. A bigger battery couldn't add that much to the price since from what we've seen Nintendo is using bargain basement components.brain_stew said:
brain_stew
Member
lostinblue said:
Of course he doesn't! We'd have ditched all fixed function hardware several years ago if Mark Rein had his way! :lol
Honestly, despite the stupidity of it all, I think the fact that Nintendo decided to use fixed function hardware to deliver ES 2.0 level effects instead of generic unified shaders (despite the fact this means Nintendo can deliver much better performance per watt) is what will keep UE3 off the platform.
It'd be a dumbfoundingly stupid rationale and incredibly frustrating but alas, Epic will cope just fine without 3DS support so they really are free to be stuck in their ways if they so wish.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Gravijah said:
Ever heard of the DS? There's barely any Western support on it. Looks at the immense and awesome library it has.
lostinblue
Banned
Bigger battery means bigger hardware.Mr_Brit said:
I'm sure they want to keep it portable/in the form factor they're in, not add to it. Otherwise we'd be entering the PSP method of going around autonomy... selling giganourmous battery packs on the side to make the product perform like it should in the first place.
And it didn't need them to be the most sold platform in the market.Cow Mengde said:
Western developers are often too childish to showcase a real market vision, instead they behave like monkey's who're charmed by stuff that glows. Meaningless overpriced tech? they'll be there even if it sells 5 units, as if they somehow need it to make a good/better game. They often don't look at what's really important (of course, there are exceptions) and they just don't go where the money really is with ambitious offers thinking they just don't need to. Cockyness is being childish in this industry and leaving money on the table/being unprofessional with doing the absolutely best they can out of every hardware piece.
There's no way Ubisoft's wave of shovelware won't bite them in the butt someday, and I'd say it already did, for instance. Why? because they're a childish company.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
lostinblue said:
Again, you can easily say "Not making the Wii do <x>, <y>, or <z> was a stupid decision" but the reality of the situation is that everyone suffers the consequences of their action and all successful businesses realign themselves after failures. If Epic feels like they've missed money on the Wii, they'll likely change their philosophy. If Nintendo feels like they've missed money on the Wii, they'll likely change their philosophy.
Of course it's also highly possible to just do your own thing. Crytek is successfully doing their own thing right now. They're not supporting Nintendo platforms. They're not going to. I'd gamble that it's more likely for Crytek to get an iPhone team than a 3DS team. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Let bygones be bygones, really.
I think customers should buy platforms for the games they have, not buy platforms for "potential" and then complain when games don't show up. Any customer who is saying "Boy, I wish <game x> or <genre y> or <company z> was on <platform a>." is really saying "Boy, I like <company z> / <game x> / <genre y>, so why did I buy <platform a>?" as far as I'm concerned.
From a business point of view, I really don't understand why people feel it's so important that all companies participate on either a) every single platform simultaneously, or b) <x> platform specifically. I think companies should forge their own development philosophies and paths, make the games they want to make, and be rewarded for success or punished by failure... and then learn from successes or failures and adapt or modify their philosophies to meet emerging technologies. I'm sure that certain companies leave money on the table--Nintendo doesn't have a tanning salon chain and I'm CERTAIN those are profitable, Nintendo doesn't develop for mobile phones or browser games and thus limits their software revenue in order to promote their hardware, Dragon Quest goes to the biggest hardware install base, Halfbrick make $1-5 games instead of full price ones, Gameloft's entire business model is just to copy successful franchises and stick them on mobile phones--everyone picks a specialty.
As I pointed out in every prior post on the subject, when two people butt heads because of philosophical differences, I don't understand looking at one person and say "How stubborn it is that he doesn't change his mind" and not realize that the same thing invariably applies to the other person. If what you mean to say is that you think Nintendo's decisions are financially correct and Epic's financially incorrect, history will either vindicate you or not and I suspect if you are vindicated Epic would change their tune. In the mean time, I don't see what's wrong with peaceful coexistence.
brain_stew
Member
Mr_Brit said:
A bigger battery means a bigger unit size and increased production costs, so no, it isn't as simple as that at all. Nintendo don't have the luxury of being able to sell their device for $800, and the fact that the iTouch has a smaller battery than the iPhone4 should show you that shipping a huge battery like that in a low cost device really isn't all that simple.
Both the original PSP and modern smartphones have huge Lion batteries and yet their battery life in high end 3D games is still completely terrible so even if you can afford to include a huge and expensive battery it isn't necessarily a silver bullet (far from it).
Look at how small and thin the iphone 4 and other smartphones are, the iphone is quite a bit thinner and has a battery that most likely has several times the capacity the 3DS battery will have and packs in wayyyyyy more electronics than the 3DS does as well as having to do that all in a space that is a lot smaller. Making the 3DS battery just half as big wouldn't take any extra space and since they're using really cheap components it couldn't add too much to the cost.lostinblue said:
So I got to thinking. Even if Ubisoft is entirely serious on their 3DS support with Assasin's Creed, how is it gonna work properly?
I'm not an expert here, just played a bit of the first one and it was ok, but snooping around, one of it's major selling points is the way towns and people are structured. Is it feasible for the 3DS to support this world, or would it be closer to the PSP's barren world everybody hated?
I'm not an expert here, just played a bit of the first one and it was ok, but snooping around, one of it's major selling points is the way towns and people are structured. Is it feasible for the 3DS to support this world, or would it be closer to the PSP's barren world everybody hated?
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