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[plagiarize]

Again, I'm not asking if it's enough, but wrt the comparisons going back and forth with iPhone, I'm asking what kind of room a client app has to work with on iPhone after you take out what the OS is consuming. I guess it's a variable thing as the OS may reserve and free memory while an app executes, but I'm wondering if there's a ballpark.

What I'm saying is, I'm wondering if you can really defend 64MB against the iPhone's RAM on the grounds that the OS takes up a fair chunk memory while a game is running on there...does the OS really only leave that little memory over for a game?

Whether it's enough or not I don't know. Obviously it compares favorably to home consoles of ten years ago, and obviously they'll have to make do with it anyway. I would guess devs now would probably hope for more though.

like i said, it's not just about how much ram the iPhone OS takes up, but how much ram the other tasks it's performing at any one time can take up.

it wasn't valid ten years ago to compare the memory requirements of a home console with the memory requirements of a PC. i'd say comparing a dedicated gaming handheld with a multipurpose one like an ipad or and iphone is equally invalid.

it might be interesting to know how much memory something like Epic Citadel uses, but i don't think it's relevant to how much memory the 3DS has.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Again, I'm not asking if it's enough, but wrt the comparisons going back and forth with iPhone, I'm asking what kind of room a client app has to work with on iPhone after you take out what the OS is consuming. I guess it's a variable thing as the OS may reserve and free memory while an app executes, but I'm wondering if there's a ballpark.

The older iPhone models had 128MB RAM, and games were only supposed to use around 32-40MB of it. The iPhones with the better graphics chip all have 256MB or better, and while the OS does use a bit more memory in those devices, developers still have access to around 128MB of it.

 

[apana]

There should be more than enough power to bolt 3D onto N64 games after the fact.

It won't be efficient vs a ground-up approach, but you don't need efficiency if the power is there to give good performance with an inefficient solution

Oh wow so it should be fairly simple and cheap to do! I'm surprised we havent heard of many ports yet. I know Konami had Ninja Goemon and Castlevania on the N64, those are the two I'm hoping for.

 

[Prez]

64MB of RAM: I called it, but no one would believe it.

 

[gofreak]

like i said, it's not just about how much ram the iPhone OS takes up, but how much ram the other tasks it's performing at any one time can take up.

It doesn't make much difference to my question. When I say OS, I mean everything the OS is doing at runtime. Or to shortcut these semantics, simply, what kind of space is typically available for a client app when everything else is taken away?

The PC analog doesn't quite hold up entirely. PCs don't have to compete just with a larger runtime overhead, but also the fact that devs can't hunker down on one specific configuration or even one smaller set of configurations. iPhone is a little different in that regard, a dev can feasibly optimise around a specification, or small set of specifications for it. Going against iPhone, though, I'm not sure what kind of memory management is available there, how much control a dev has. However, I'm still not sure I'm thoroughly convinced by arguments that the 3DS allotment compares OK to iPhone's even factoring in these things.

edit - and thanks Dreamwriter.

 

[Mr.Green]

I have no stereoscopic vision.

Fuck you all and your precious little third dimension.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Yeah, well, no tanukis in America, so we're already in the realm of fiction here.

It's just weird. Like seeing the statue of liberty wearing a bikini or something.

You've got to go a bit more surreal and wrong. The statue of liberty wearing a pants suit.

 

[Kenka]

I have no stereoscopic vision.

Fuck you all and your precious little third dimension.

Have you got an eye that is slightly less functionnal than the other one ?

 

[Dreamwriter]

I have no stereoscopic vision.

Fuck you all and your precious little third dimension.

Don't forget 3DS has a slider letting you turn down or off the 3D effect, and because of that developers can't make any games that require 3D. Since the system is still a TON more powerful than the DS/DSi, it is still very worth buying.

 

[Vinci]

I guess it was inevitable that people would compare the thing to the iPhone. People really want Apple and Nintendo to butt heads.

 

[defferoo]

With the iOS et al, how much memory would a client application - a game - on iPhone have to play with? People are saying that an iPhone has to deal with a big OS and all that, but does it really eat that much memory that 64MB in a dedicated device would be comparably accommodating?

(Note that this is a subtly different question to whether 64MB is 'enough' or not.)

It doesn't really work that way. It's not like iOS just takes up a chunk of memory and your app takes the rest. Most iOS apps use less than 64MB, 20-30MB is considered fairly big already. Not to mention the fact that iphone 4 allows for "multitasking" and since the iphone doesn't have a swap file and can't page, all of the apps are kept in memory. This means you MUST have a lot of memory to work with, hence the 512MB

 

[SuperJay]

I have no stereoscopic vision.

Fuck you all and your precious little third dimension.

::gasp!:: Me too! I'm blind in my right eye. If this thing isn't affordable, I'm going to have to sit it out until it is. It sucks because I've been a HUGE Nintendo supporter all my life.

Strangely enough, I have a friend who has 2 working eyes, but is part of this 12% statistic http://www.next-gen.biz/news/12-of-brits-can%E2%80%99t-see-3d-properly-%E2%80%93-research

 

[donny2112]

I have no stereoscopic vision.

You know that the graphics are still improved on the 3DS, right? There are people playing PS3/360 in SD, and the picture still looks better, after all. If you don't want to purchase a system that has a feature you won't/can't use, then figure out how much that feature would've been worth to you and don't buy the system until it drops in price to the resulting difference.

 

[Vinci]

You know that the graphics are still improved on the 3DS, right? There are people playing PS3/360 in SD, and the picture still looks better, after all. If you don't want to purchase a system that has a feature you won't/can't use, then figure out how much that feature would've been worth to you and don't buy the system until it drops in price to the resulting difference.

Or just buy the damn thing when it has an actual game he wants to play. This is maybe one of those hardware-before-software conceits I don't get, huh?

 

[Eteric Rice]

No, the iPad has 10 hours battery life showing high resolution movies. If all you are doing is browsing the web, it lasts a LOT longer. But the iPad is meaningless in this conversation, because the entire space inside the iPad is taken up by two HUGE batteries, neither one would fit in the 3DS.

Yeah, the biggest limitation of handhelds is the battery. Batteries haven't really improved very much over the years.

 

[brain_stew]

Digital Foundry have an analysis up
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-3ds-techspec-exploration-blog-entry

I'm usually a big fan of Digital Foundry but all of their 3DS coverage has been incredibly poor and this follows that trend. Its above the usual standard of analysis you'd get from IGN of Gamespot but only just barely. Some ridiculous assumptions and myths are presented as facts and the device is just treat like a standard smartphone which an incredibly naive way of looking at things. FFS, why completely shit on the 4MB of fast dedicated memory when no other modern SOC has any dedicated graphics memory? Presenting Tegra 2 as some sort of messiah chip like most of the press seem to be doing is also incredibly disappointing.

 

[donny2112]

This is maybe one of those hardware-before-software conceits I don't get, huh?

There's an implicit assumption that it'll have games he wants to get. Therefore, he'll want the system. However since a big selling point of the system is a feature he can't use, he may feel "cheated" to pay full price with only being able to use part of the functionality. Therefore a compromise would be to figure out how much the 3-D is worth to him as part of the 3DS launch price, and wait to buy until that part is cut out from his cost (e.g. used, sales). That way he wouldn't feel "cheated" buying a system that he can't fully utilize.

Just a thought.

 

[sinxtanx]

Don't forget 3DS has a slider letting you turn down or off the 3D effect, and because of that developers can't make any games that require 3D. Since the system is still a TON more powerful than the DS/DSi, it is still very worth buying.

Like that is gonna be true forever
I give it less than a month

 

[Kafel]

Has IGN been right once with their Nintendo hardware rumors ?

 

[gofreak]

Not to mention the fact that iphone 4 allows for "multitasking" and since the iphone doesn't have a swap file and can't page, all of the apps are kept in memory.

I'd say 'big games' if and as they come will reasonably ask a user to close other apps, and will assume they're the only kid playing in the sandbox. Anyway, I think my question was answered by Dreamwriter.

Like that is gonna be true forever
I give it less than a month

I always assumed there'd be some games that might fundamentally require the 3D in order for their gameplay to work (?) Or maybe it'll typically be the case that the 3D 'helps' some aspects of gameplay without being absolutely necessary.

 

[The Technomancer]

I always assumed there'd be some games that might fundamentally require the 3D in order for their gameplay to work (?) Or maybe it'll typically be the case that the 3D 'helps' some aspects of gameplay without being absolutely necessary.

The second is pretty much guaranteed: Miyamoto has said repeatedly that he likes the 3D because it makes depth perception in Mario-style games much easier.

 

[Vinci]

There's an implicit assumption that it'll have games he wants to get. Therefore, he'll want the system. However since a big selling point of the system is a feature he can't use, he may feel "cheated" to pay full price with only being able to use part of the functionality. Therefore a compromise would be to figure out how much the 3-D is worth to him as part of the 3DS launch price, and wait to buy until that part is cut out from his cost (e.g. used, sales). That way he wouldn't feel "cheated" buying a system that he can't fully utilize.

Just a thought.

There's a ton of crap that comes with many pieces of hardware I buy that I can't or won't utilize. That doesn't equate to me questioning whether I'm getting my money's worth when it has applications and/or other features that are worth paying for. Yes, it comes down to personal preference - but it's an odd way to make a choice. I'm all for saving money, but I think this discussion is overanalyzing a procedure in the purchasing process that is ignored utterly by the majority of hobbyists.

I always assumed there'd be some games that might fundamentally require the 3D in order for their gameplay to work (?) Or maybe it'll typically be the case that the 3D 'helps' some aspects of gameplay without being absolutely necessary.

The latter.

 

[Garjon]

I was expecting a high performance machine, but wow. I am most certainly impressed. Or at least I would be if it wasn't for one thing - the price. The system could launch in Japan in less than 2 months and we still haven't a clue what they will be charging for this thing. This can't be a good sign.

However, doesn't Nintendo have some sort of special event in the next few weeks?

As for the iPhone comparisons: what?

 

[EVH]

Why so much love for the 4MB VRAM thing?

I'm asking because I don't know anything about this. Can someone talk about it and why is so good?

 

[brain_stew]

I'm completely illiterate hardware-wise, but will it be possible to overclock it simply with a firmware update?

If running the CPUs at a higher clockspeed later on down the line is part of the initial design then it'll only require a single line of code in software to achieve, just as it does on the PSP.

 

[Vinci]

I was expecting a high performance machine, but wow. I am most certainly impressed. Or at least I would be if it wasn't for one thing - the price. The system could launch in Japan in less than 2 months and we still haven't a clue what they will be charging for this thing. This can't be a good sign.

However, doesn't Nintendo have some sort of special event in the next few weeks?

As for the iPhone comparisons: what?

It's actually a week from now.

 

[Mr.Green]

Have you got an eye that is slightly less functionnal than the other one ?

Something like that.

 

[plagiarize]

The older iPhone models had 128MB RAM, and games were only supposed to use around 32-40MB of it. The iPhones with the better graphics chip all have 256MB or better, and while the OS does use a bit more memory in those devices, developers still have access to around 128MB of it.

something else to bear in mind is that you also need more memory the higher resolution your display is.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

I was expecting a high performance machine, but wow. I am most certainly impressed. Or at least I would be if it wasn't for one thing - the price. The system could launch in Japan in less than 2 months and we still haven't a clue what they will be charging for this thing. This can't be a good sign.

However, doesn't Nintendo have some sort of special event in the next few weeks?

As for the iPhone comparisons: what?

It is 6 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes and 54 seconds until Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 10:00:00 AM (Tokyo time)

 

[Graphics Horse]

I guess it was inevitable that people would compare the thing to the iPhone. People are really butt heads.

fixed

 

[ntropy]

the 3DS is somewhere between a 3DS and a 3DS.

 

[XPE]

the 3DS is somewhere between a 3DS and a 3DS.

And yet i bet someone on here still argues with you :lol

 

[SuperJay]

THANK YOU! Exactly my feelings:

There's an implicit assumption that it'll have games he wants to get. Therefore, he'll want the system. However since a big selling point of the system is a feature he can't use, he may feel "cheated" to pay full price with only being able to use part of the functionality. Therefore a compromise would be to figure out how much the 3-D is worth to him as part of the 3DS launch price, and wait to buy until that part is cut out from his cost (e.g. used, sales). That way he wouldn't feel "cheated" buying a system that he can't fully utilize.

Just a thought.

 

[Snytbaggen]

the 3DS is somewhere between a 3DS and a 3DS.

I disagree, I think it's closer to a 3DS.

 

[Jin34]

This is why Nintendo didn't allow people to reveal the specs. We get developers impressions on how powerful it is, we get shown games that PS2/GC/Xbox/Wii couldn't possibly run, we get Capcom talking about how they ported their HD engine in no time and retained all the effects but as soon as people see the clockspeeds they start knocking magazine racks and retarded comparisons to smart phones.

 

[The Technomancer]

I disagree, I think it's closer to a 3DS.

The 3DS is two DSs taped together, with a pair of red-blue glasses taped on the front.

 

[NewFresh]

I disagree, I think it's closer to a 3DS.

If you had read up on anything you would clearly see that it is closer to a 3DS than a 3DS

 

[Owzers]

The 3DS is two DSs taped together, with a pair of red-blue glasses taped on the front.

I'm pretty sure it's 3 DSs taped together hence the name.

 

[Pureauthor]

I disagree, I think it's closer to a 3DS.

Don't be foolish; look at the RE:R demo, there's no way a 3DS could do half of those effects.

 

[wrowa]

the 3DS is somewhere between a 3DS and a 3DS.

You can't compare a 3DS with a 3DS. That's nonsense. The 3DS and the 3DS have to fulfill completely different tasks and requirements.

 

[brain_stew]

With the iOS et al, how much memory would a client application - a game - on iPhone have to play with? People are saying that an iPhone has to deal with a big OS and all that, but does it really eat that much memory that 64MB in a dedicated device would be comparably accommodating?

(Note that this is a subtly different question to whether 64MB is 'enough' or not.)

If you're targeting all idevices then its much less than the 68MB that 3DS developers will have to work with, I'm not sure of the exact figure but its pretty damn small. I think that kinda puts the Iphone's bigger RAM size into account.

Now, if you're application is ES 2.0 exclusive, then yes you'll have access to more memory than 3DS games will, but not a whole lot more and certainly not even a 2x advantage. The RAM advantage will only be significant if your application is Iphone 4 exclusive.

So basically, at least 95% of iOS games have access to less RAM than 3DS games will. That really puts that 512MB vs. 64MB debate in perspective and shows how syupid comparing a smartphone to a dedicated gaming handheld directly is.

 

[McHuj]

An interesting point to make about the CPU choice. A lot of people are making the comment that this is a keen example of Nintendo "cheaping out" and I think that comment is a little unfair. Just because those two ARM11 cores run at a meagre clockspeed doesn't actually mean that they'll be any cheaper to manufacture, they'll have the the exact same silicon budget as standard ~600mhz AMR11s as featured in most previous generation smartphones.

When you fab a bunch of processors, of the ones that work, not all will meet the same clock speed. AMD and Intel have often sold the same processor with different clock speeds. You just bin them and resell them as a different model.

By targeting a low clock, they can improve yields significantly. Higher yields means that its much cheaper to manufacture. At lower clock rates, they can play games with the process technology that will also help yields and result in lower power.

 

[Snytbaggen]

Don't be foolish; look at the RE:R demo, there's no way a 3DS could do half of those effects.

No no no. You guys are completely out of your minds. Look at the MGS pictures and you'll see it's CLEARLY closer to a 3DS.

 

[Vinci]

So basically, at least 95% of iOS games have access to less RAM than 3DS games will. That really puts that 512MB vs. 64MB debate in perspective and shows how syupid comparing a smartphone to a dedicated gaming handheld directly is.

Nuh-uh! Nintendo's just stupid with technology. Apple is better. Admit it!

 

[Rich!]

This sounds exactly like what I was expecting from the 3DS. And it's more than enough.

This time next week we'll know the price, launch date, launch titles as well as likely knowing more about the OS and any online features. Fuuuuuck.

 

[SolarPowered]

I gotta say that I'm feeling impressed with what has been presented so far.

One thing I'm not completely sure about is which aspect of this thread is more impressive. Nintendo's ability to create fantastic gaming centric architecture with great battery life or people's ability to willfully ignore both quantitative and qualitative evidence of the 3DS's power relative to other handhelds/consoles.

 

[jman2050]

The amount of memory you have to work with in an iDevice OES 1.1 application (which you absolutely must adhere to or at least adjust your engine for if you're making anything that works on a pre-3GS device) is nowhere near 64MB FWIW.

 

[Mr.Green]

There's an implicit assumption that it'll have games he wants to get. Therefore, he'll want the system. However since a big selling point of the system is a feature he can't use, he may feel "cheated" to pay full price with only being able to use part of the functionality. Therefore a compromise would be to figure out how much the 3-D is worth to him as part of the 3DS launch price, and wait to buy until that part is cut out from his cost (e.g. used, sales). That way he wouldn't feel "cheated" buying a system that he can't fully utilize.

Just a thought.

I don't feel cheated at all. Nobody forces me to buy anything and I understand that I'm in the extreme minority here, but I sure feel left out of course. The lack of stereoscopic vision is a "handicap" that never bothered me in 38 years but with the massive industry push towards 3D I feel like I'm missing out. Especially as an avid gamer and tech enthusiast.

3D for movies and TV is a gimmick that never took off, and I don't see it taking off much more this time around but I think 3D for games will be a big deal. Just imagine playing table tennis in Sports Champions in 3D... I believe it will become an integral part of gameplay and I hope you fucks enjoy it.

*Slams door. Runs from room crying.*

 

[Graphics Horse]

*Slams door. Runs from room crying.*

As a consolation you'll still be able to see from two different perspectives by moving your head, something that doesn't work with a 3D glasses system.

 

[Vinci]

I don't feel cheated at all. Nobody forces me to buy it but I sure feel left out, of course. The lack of stereoscopic vision is a "handicap" that never bothered me in 38 years but with the massive industry push towards 3D I feel like I'm missing out. Especially as an avid gamer and tech enthusiast.

3D for movies and TV is a gimmick that never took off, and I don't see it taking off much more this time but I think 3D for games will be a big deal. Just imagine playing table tennis in Sports Champions in 3D... I believe it will become an integral part of gameplay and I hope you fucks enjoy it.

*Slams door. Runs from room crying.*

If Nintendo's little 3D lever is any indication, it seems like they know that this is a potential problem. Will it become integral? Perhaps in the future, but not on this machine. Might be useful in some cases, but you should be good to go for at least another generation or two more.