Because this didn't allow to run unsigned code (the main goal of the "scene").
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New piracy technique on PS4 in Brazil confirmed real, Sony might take legal action
- Thread starter Stereogatari
- Start date
Because this didn't allow to run unsigned code (the main goal of the "scene").
They don't need to. If the player goes online at the same time as the others the system will likely not play the games because it will probably check the licence and that it is in use. What makes this bad (good really) is that once this is done you are stuck with those games. If you want a new game you would have to repeat the process. The shopkeeper would need to buy the game, the user would need to pay the shopkeeper and open the ps4 again and flash the bios every time the person wanted to play something new. Recipe for bricked consoles.
Stone Ocean
Member
It's not really modding as much as it is a weird ass hardware exploit. Think of ghost sharing but more extreme.
So what they do is "flash all the things" and clone a PS4 into another PS4.
That should be feasible as long as there's no hardware criptography involved...
It makes your PS4 useless online though, and further pirated games require a full re-flash again...
If sony fixes the flashing mechanism somehow in future firmware updates (And more importantly hardware revisions) and enforce games to a minimum firmware revision, the problem would basically vanish for new consoles and new games.
Not to mention this is not exactly cheap or easy and cannot sustain widely-adopted piracy.
$150 is cheap for 10 games, but it is not THAT cheap. You're better served with game deals 1yr after release than losing online connectivity and future games completely.
That should be feasible as long as there's no hardware criptography involved...
It makes your PS4 useless online though, and further pirated games require a full re-flash again...
If sony fixes the flashing mechanism somehow in future firmware updates (And more importantly hardware revisions) and enforce games to a minimum firmware revision, the problem would basically vanish for new consoles and new games.
Not to mention this is not exactly cheap or easy and cannot sustain widely-adopted piracy.
$150 is cheap for 10 games, but it is not THAT cheap. You're better served with game deals 1yr after release than losing online connectivity and future games completely.
Theonik
Member
I think it was only corrected with the PS One. The vanilla Playstation only checks for a 4 character string written to a special part of the disk at startup. This was also how region locking was implemented I think. So what modchips actually did was inject the data at the right time and the disk boot would progress.
Edit:
For the PS One wrt swapping, specifically to load imports it required you to swap twice. In terms of actual security PSOne also enabled games to implement many of their own anti-piracy checks though I think some PlayStation developers like Insomniac games also did their own anti-piracy software built into their own games themselves.
Kssio_Aug
Member
A little bit of both actually. But the prices are what they are by a looong time now, so nothing surprise or revolting at this point, except with the crisis that is making things actually a bit more expensive now, specially in "oficial" stores.
The main point of this is still just hacking or piracy culture I guess.
Bluray disc games contain a game data but also firmware data. This is how totally offline machines can play new games and have latest firmware dependency.
Going online Sony can see duplicate MachineIDs, revoke license files and ban for further online use. It remains to be seen when Sony takes a ban hammer in use.
I don't know this stuff enough to speculate what measures a disc based firmware could carry. Include a revocation list of ids in a disc based firmware file, update hardcoded list once a major AAA title is to be released, run a game and it won't work?
Is it really PS4 hardware don't have a hidden uniqueid somewhere outside of flashable NAND chip. Install game on this PS4+this HDD and license keys are also paired to a hardware specific uniqueid? Cloning hdd and nand did not have enough decryption keys.
Going online Sony can see duplicate MachineIDs, revoke license files and ban for further online use. It remains to be seen when Sony takes a ban hammer in use.
I don't know this stuff enough to speculate what measures a disc based firmware could carry. Include a revocation list of ids in a disc based firmware file, update hardcoded list once a major AAA title is to be released, run a game and it won't work?
Is it really PS4 hardware don't have a hidden uniqueid somewhere outside of flashable NAND chip. Install game on this PS4+this HDD and license keys are also paired to a hardware specific uniqueid? Cloning hdd and nand did not have enough decryption keys.
UnObtainium17
Member
Even with no online this is a pretty big deal.. ps2 and wii games were pirated like crazy even if it didnt have much online features. Pc games too. A lot of people are just appy having the SP while getting the game for dirt cheap.
NAND flash requires soldering through a JTAG or serial port, doesn't it?
This is pretty interesting, being a software hack that's more or less transparent to Sony.
The only method they'd have to catch that, until a further hw revision - that can check authorized components IDs, like the disc reader, is probably autoban all people involved if more than two connections from the same ID are detected.
In all likeness, a NAND copy through serial ports will override all IDs, so the only check possible is against components outside the main board. Disc readers generally haven't even got serial ports for flashing, so they're a good target i reckon.
Also, i don't think they're losing online connectivity, not until sony patches something to detect cloned IDs. It all depends on how they store HWIDs - if those are in the NAND, they're overridable.
This is pretty interesting, being a software hack that's more or less transparent to Sony.
The only method they'd have to catch that, until a further hw revision - that can check authorized components IDs, like the disc reader, is probably autoban all people involved if more than two connections from the same ID are detected.
In all likeness, a NAND copy through serial ports will override all IDs, so the only check possible is against components outside the main board. Disc readers generally haven't even got serial ports for flashing, so they're a good target i reckon.
Also, i don't think they're losing online connectivity, not until sony patches something to detect cloned IDs. It all depends on how they store HWIDs - if those are in the NAND, they're overridable.
Theonik
Member
It's a combination of the two I think. In this case especially, the pricing situation is creating a very strong market case for these stores to exploit. From an average pirate's perspective it wouldn't be worthwhile otherwise (you need someone to do a lot of work and it requires a copy of the pirated game to share.)
Nope
You can still play online and update your console just like you used to do. At least while Sony doesnt go after this guys. You guys also should be aware that a minimum wage here in Brazil is around $300 right now. So videogames are very expensive and prohibitive here.
I dont support piracy at all, but I can see why this people would go after that
SOURCE: I'm Brazilian
The fact that this is just a clone of the bios/nand has me less worried. Easy for Sony to close up. If the buying stuff on other stores or a vita account situation comes to ps4 I'll be livid(1 account per system). I've spent way too much money across my accounts to be locked out of any one account.
Yup,I thinl this is what prevent PS3 piracy being too widespread. Yeah the games aren't as big but copying gigs of game with USB 2.0 is a pain in the ass. Plus in country where puracy is rampant, internet infrastructure isn't that good enough to even download PS3 games easily.
LMAO. Not even close, nor by a long shot.
Bomber Bob
Banned
Youtube?
Call Me A Hero
Member
Sure piracy exists when prices are higher than the average income.
Piracy will always exist, even if the prices were fair. PC games are cheaper than anywhere in the world here and people still buy pirate game on the gray market/download on pirate bay.
Collateral22
Member
Not quite, the xbox one's NAND has been dumped a few weeks after release, but it's heavily encrypted and a few people have said it would take years to crack. I remember for jtags you had to solder a few different points to allow a NAND dump though.
Dr. Buni
Member
What is so funny about my question?
Xbox checked against all HWIDs.
The beauty of a clone hack is that you don't actually need to decrypt any data: You're copying it wholesale, encryption included.
Unless, of course, the serial port itself re-encrypts any data during passthrough, but that'd be completely idiotic.
kurisu1974
Banned
It's not really "pirated" and it's not the fastest.
Insane Metal
Member
I won't support piracy, but since Sony has given a big "fuck you" to Brazil with the PS4, I can't really say I feel bad about this.
Charles Brandon
Member
How have they done that?
Kssio_Aug
Member
However most people that buys a PS4 and make use of piracy forms, like downloading giant games at torrents, has a decent enough wage to afford some originals, if doing it moderated. I dont really think that the main public of these hackers are actually poor.
I'm not denying the hard situation it is to acquire original games. But to afford an expensive console and a decent enough connection to download 30gb games and to say you really can't afford buying original games with moderation (like one every one or two months, and trying to avoid new releases prices) seems to me only piracy culture and not necessity.
Also, there are other options. You dont need a PS4 to play games. PC games have a very fair price in Brazil, both on Steam or retail stores.
Going online requires the newest firmware which these don't have so they can't be going online.
Call Me A Hero
Member
Agree it always exists but expensive products have higher rate to be hacked/pirated.
And here you are cloning, not decrypting anything.
How old is the PS4, 2 years at most? Is it the console to be "pirated" in the shortest amount of time?
IIRC the Wii was pretty much cracked open at launch because it had the same vulnerability than the GC.
Collateral22
Member
Oh I understand, was just referring to the post about needing to do soldering to dump the NAND.
7DollarHagane
Banned
They will likely go after the shops offering this if it happens in us/UK/Japan/Asia.
This is a pure piracy brute force exploit and has no legitimate use. There's no legal ground for anyone offering this service.
In Brazil it sounds like the market is pretty fucked anyway so it may just be throwing more money at the problem than its worth.
This is a pure piracy brute force exploit and has no legitimate use. There's no legal ground for anyone offering this service.
In Brazil it sounds like the market is pretty fucked anyway so it may just be throwing more money at the problem than its worth.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Good luck living without your day one patches.
Also, Re: PT - hah! Where's your digital media future now?
Also, Re: PT - hah! Where's your digital media future now?
BibiMaghoo
Member
Whoever buys such a system would need to buy another console in order to set one as a primary. Setting their own account as primary on that console would block the issue and make the games unplayable, so they are really trading off here.
If you have a PS4 but no primary console, I'd imagine there are several things you cannot do. Doesn't remote play need to be used with the primary account on a console?
If you have a PS4 but no primary console, I'd imagine there are several things you cannot do. Doesn't remote play need to be used with the primary account on a console?
Theonik
Member
It's not a problem for these people because the stores would be loading patched versions of games on their HDDs. Then when they need more games they repeat the process.
A lot of that lost functionality is probably not very important to someone wanting to save money in this way.
This can't be stressed enough. We all know the harsh reality we live in, but let's not pretend the people that actualy have a PS4 here are poor, so they can't buy games.
I just don't agree with the PC comment, you know how expensive it is to build a PC to play modern games at decent framerates and decent graphics. If we want to build a PC comparable to a PS4, we are talking about a R$5,000 investment here, minimum.
I have a R$3,000 notebook that can't run MK X at 60fps on any stage other than the training stage, this with 800x600 resolution and everything on the worst quality. I know in the long run, considering the low price of the games, it can be worth it. but the initial investment is absurd. Also, we just can't trust the developers to port every game properly, just look at the MK X fiasco.
PS4 is the best option to play games, you just have to buy a big HDD and subscribe to an american PSN account to get cheaper games.
Nemesis121
Member
Even if it's patch out, the door has been open, it's only a matter of time before they crack it..
Dude, I just read the original article in portuguese, and they say you can play online. And update your firmware
''More than that, games can be updated and even work on multiplayer online modes. You can play online and not even Sony will be able to know if you are playing a original game or not''
http://jogos.uol.com.br/ultimas-not...irataria-chega-ao-playstation-4-no-brasil.htm
Jacksinthe
Banned
Negative. Anything with zero or simple DRM gets hammered, price is irrelevant.
Its why Humble Bundle gets pirated.
Humble Bundle gets pirated.
Let that sink in. Its rarely every about cost and more about people not wanting to pay for things. Its literally that simple. Is price a factor? Sure. Not to the same degree as people being dicks, however.
People pirate because they can. There's not much else.
Yep sorry got confused. They mentioned how another similar exploit was patched in 2.51 and I thought they were talking about this one. This is such a weird thing that will probably be fixed eventually.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Yeah, Sony is responsible for the Brazilian government's ridiculous import tax.
Hans.Gruber
Banned
OK I read through all the possible hacks, and my verdict is:
this will never catch on in here in Germany, you would have to bring your PS4 to some place every single time you want a new game. The stores who do that crap risk waaaaay more than if they would do a mod (360, PSX days) and let the pirate copy or download the content. With this method the "modder" will also be seen as the illegal distributor, a lawsuit would mean financial death. In the old days modding was done in the legal grey zone, this stuff is straight up illegal.
Any techsavvy guy probably does gamesharing with a friend anyways, so games are like 30 each. The time and work it takes doing a full PS4 HDD format and dump will probably cost you 20 (at least) for each game. Add the legal risk and any sane modder won't even get near that shit for under 50.
Plus we don't even know what Sony can/will do about it.
this will never catch on in here in Germany, you would have to bring your PS4 to some place every single time you want a new game. The stores who do that crap risk waaaaay more than if they would do a mod (360, PSX days) and let the pirate copy or download the content. With this method the "modder" will also be seen as the illegal distributor, a lawsuit would mean financial death. In the old days modding was done in the legal grey zone, this stuff is straight up illegal.
Any techsavvy guy probably does gamesharing with a friend anyways, so games are like 30 each. The time and work it takes doing a full PS4 HDD format and dump will probably cost you 20 (at least) for each game. Add the legal risk and any sane modder won't even get near that shit for under 50.
Plus we don't even know what Sony can/will do about it.
Do you honestly believe Sony don't know the hardware ids of the ps4s connecting to their network? The moment a cloned device is known it will be blocked from all online services. Doesn't matter what other accounts are added after that point.
Birgitte2004
Member
You can, until they find a way to tag and ban them, which won't take very long.
So from my understanding so far this is how the exploit works:
1.NAND+Bios is Cloned and Put on new PS4
2. Hard Drive is Cloned from the original PS4 with the games installed.
3. User add their PS4 account onto the flashed PS4 with the games and can play online like normal.
When a new game is required.
1. User makes sure all saves are in the cloud
2. User gets his hard drive image wiped by shop with additional games that are required. (no NAND flash required as each shop probably has a master console for adding games and will stick to the same one)
3. User restores user and saved data from cloud and games like everyone else - I don't see any reason why they can't update like regular users to.
This longevity of this will totally be based on PSN ability when a console is online to work out if there are playstations with duplicated NAND's.
HOWEVER, I doubt sony will ban the consoles even if they are found and here is why: how would a second hand store be able to tell if the NAND has been replicated? or eBay for that matter? Alot of innocent people with get caught in the cross-fire of ban hammers on the second hand market - and I don't think sony would want that bad rep on their hands.
I hate piracy. PT might push people over to the dark side though. **** konami!
It's a shame
1.NAND+Bios is Cloned and Put on new PS4
2. Hard Drive is Cloned from the original PS4 with the games installed.
3. User add their PS4 account onto the flashed PS4 with the games and can play online like normal.
When a new game is required.
1. User makes sure all saves are in the cloud
2. User gets his hard drive image wiped by shop with additional games that are required. (no NAND flash required as each shop probably has a master console for adding games and will stick to the same one)
3. User restores user and saved data from cloud and games like everyone else - I don't see any reason why they can't update like regular users to.
This longevity of this will totally be based on PSN ability when a console is online to work out if there are playstations with duplicated NAND's.
HOWEVER, I doubt sony will ban the consoles even if they are found and here is why: how would a second hand store be able to tell if the NAND has been replicated? or eBay for that matter? Alot of innocent people with get caught in the cross-fire of ban hammers on the second hand market - and I don't think sony would want that bad rep on their hands.
I hate piracy. PT might push people over to the dark side though. **** konami!
It's a shame
You can calculate absolutely all the tax you want and the PS4 wouldn't cost the official price of R$4,000. Sony put some absurd margins there, they were greedy as fuck, there is no excuse. You can spin all you want, our taxes are fucked up, but that ridiculous price is on Sony.
Let's not forget what was exposed by all the big media sites when the price was announced, you can go to Miami, buy the PS4 (with all the original margins and taxes), get caught by our customs, pay ALL our taxes, and it would still be cheaper than our official price. Let that sink in for a moment.
Birgitte2004
Member
You've never been able to buy stolen property and then assume you get to keep it fully functional after the fact. And it's always sucked for the end user, but anyone blaming Sony for it isn't worth worrying about anyway. Sony would have done nothing wrong.