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New super hot Final Fantasy XV CG character renders (Cidney, Iris, etc.)

KrawlMan

Member
That's a total false equivalency. Again this isn't really about how attractive the characters are, but rather how fundamentally sexualized they are. It's not just her outfit, Cidney's body language and animations are all meant to titillate (the reward for the FFXV VR experience is looking at Cidney's bewbs, for example).

I mean it's just kind of dumb to me personally, but to a lot of people it's more than that and they shouldn't be shut down by half-hearted deflections.

Like, if you like her design, fine, but your feelings for it doesn't somehow put it beyond reproach.

In my defense I've been trying to avoid watching any gameplay/previews other than Kingsglaive and the animes (which haven't included her yet) so when their pictures are placed side by side I'm not seeing whatever overt sexuality comes from her behaviours / body language.

Edit: Could be the case that when I play for myself I'm a bit taken aback by the presentation. For instance I've only looked at about 10 seconds of the VR experience content, thought it looked like rubbish and closed the video. And on that note, I'll see myself out of this conversation. Clearly not knowledgeable enough to take part :p
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In my defense I've been trying to avoid watching any gameplay/previews other than Kingsglaive and the animes (which haven't included her yet) so when their pictures are placed side by side I'm not seeing whatever overt sexuality comes from her behaviours / body language.

Edit: Could be the case that when I play for myself I'm a bit taken aback by the presentation. For instance I've only looked at about 10 seconds of the VR experience content, thought it looked like rubbish and closed the video. And on that note, I'll see myself out of this conversation. Clearly not knowledgeable enough to take part :p
It's pretty egregious dude.
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That sorta reminds me of RLM's nonsense argument of "It's outer space so they don't have to care about representation!" from their Episode VII review. Art reflects life, you can't say the human characters are completely divorced from the reality of our world. Especially when the fucking tagline of this project has been "This is a Fantasy based on Reality".

I mean fuck, I'm honestly one who likes cheesecake in certain media, but let's not pretend like our tastes are the only ones who matter here. If we can't admit that you know maybe not every game should have sexualized women in it, then we really do have a serious problem.



I think it'll be a holistic analysis of how Tabata doesn't really value or consider female agency, with the objectification of Cidney being a highly visible but relatively minor example.

Yeah, but I think there are exceptions. Honestly though, I did say that they probably made her look that way because they just wanted a sexy female in the game whether it's in context or not. Not trying to justify anything. Just saying that is the design they wanted.
 
Yeah, but I think there are exceptions. Honestly though, I did say that they probably made her look that way because they just wanted a sexy female in the game whether it's in context or not. Not trying to justify anything. Just saying that is the design they wanted.

But the issue is their choice has consequences in how people view the game; you can't demand that people have no reactions to the choices you make. Free speech doesn't work that way.
 

LordKasual

Banned
I saw it as a moment where Luna was used as an object to portray Ardyn's villainy.

The reason for that is because the camera focus is on Ardyn and his actions rather than on Luna, meaning the purpose of those scenes was to characterize Ardyn. A close up on his face turning angry, then a zoomed out view where Luna is not facing the camera but Ardyn is, and his action is the centerpiece.

In comparison there was a scene I saw from a Chinese drama where a kneeling woman goaded a man into slapping her, and the camera focus in that scene was on her, both before the slap (there was a brief cut of the anger on the man's face, but it was not a close up) and the shot after the slap was solely focused on the woman on the ground and her reaction. The scene was about what SHE wanted from him, not about him looking more villainous by slapping her.

"Seeing confrontation" doesn't equal strong character. The problem thus far with Luna is the portrayal of passivity. The speeches presented in trailers as "leader/strong character" moments are actually weak and lame. Gibberish to Leviathan and canned generic hero lines to a tiny crowd.

In comparison, (again a Chinese drama example) in a trailer a woman dressed in extravagant robes addresses a sea of fully armored and spear-wielding soldiers, her voice filled with conviction and her facial expressions emphasizing her words: "Soldiers! Today, we adopt these new laws in our country of Qin. Tomorrow, the whole world could also adopt these same laws. For every effort you make, you will be rewarded!" It is the implication of this cut in the trailer that this is how she gains the support of the army; even without the historical context of her story it is understandable and admirable. The woman who addresses this army is properly fierce, her presence commanding.

To put it bluntly, Luna is not special, intriguing, active, or compelling in any way. From my perspective, there's just a bunch of excuses and desperate explaining as to why Luna is so passive, how she is so strong, how awesome and important she is, but this is all tell and no show. I've seen more, and I've seen much better.

Well, I just watched Kingsglaive, and I disagree then. I super disagree. I don't see how Ardyn's villainy and Luna's cunning are mutually exclusive. It really just feels like we're starting at "she's passive and weak" and just working backwards.

Luna is easily the most emotionally resolute character in the story thus far to me, the only one who has it worse than her is Noctis, but I can't even say that because Noctis has a powerful backbone supporting him in his friends even after the passing of the King, not to mention his bloodline abilities. Luna has had literally everything taken from her by the people who's thumb she's under, including her brother, who's still living but nonetheless not even on her side. The fact she's still managing to get shit done despite her limited ability to do so or defend herself is pretty damn admirable. What I see in Luna is that she's just really determined to see her duty through because she realizes the gravity of it. If she was mentally weak, or less insightful, she would be like her brother. If her sense of duty was any less, she would be just like her brother. And Noctis and the rest of the world would be presumably really fucked.

Again, I just feel like people are being overly critical of her portrayal more because of what they wish she was, rather than because she's legitimately showing concerning trends. Luna being slapped by Ardyn is more valuable ammo against her than anything she's been shown doing otherwise. Even if she could go apeshit and murder all the magitek troops with some serious magic power, she still has a duty to her people and that would put them in danger, if Kingsglaive is any indication.

I feel like Luna is, thus far, a decent example of a character in a dire situation making due with what she has, which isn't very much. Luna doesn't have to be loyal to Regis or Noctis, Ravus has turned ship and it seems to have landed him in a pretty favorable spot. She does it because she wants to, and that's easily the most difficult choice she could make in this situation. Luna is essentially Yuna, without the broken ass aeons and without the unwavering support of the rest of the planet.


It's pretty egregious dude.

This is not egregious sexual body language. At all. This is essentially regular body language, just with a really skimpy outfit. And one guy who got the perfect camera shot lined up on that second image.

If you put her in a jump suit and covered the cleavage, there would be nothing alarming here.

http://i.imgur.com/naCsOA7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D86QgpB.jpg

^ These are egregious examples of sexual body language. It would raise eyebrows regardless of whatever the fuck she was wearing. It's completely unnatural and pretty much only exists so you can check her body out.
 

SilentRob

Member
Well with Quiet, and I don't want to say this excuses it at all, but that weirdness (Sexualization given how fucked up she was) plays into the general Kojimaness of it all. Honestly basically all of Kojima's games handle women problematically, tending to fetishize women as victims (Desert Wolf, Olga, Fortune, The Boss, Paz, The Beauty and The Beast, Quiet).

The Boss is imo the best female video game character of all time. To even compare her to the Beasts in MGS 4 or Quiet seems crazy to me :p
 

DylanEno

Member
All pretty atrocious tbh. Really not digging the characters designs in this game.

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Ok real talk that tan line is hot af tho
 

LordKasual

Banned
The Boss is imo the best female video game character of all time. To even compare her to the Beasts in MGS 4 or Quiet seems crazy to me :p

The Boss is definitely an anomaly. Quiet got the worst of it probably because MGSV's engine allowed her to look way more tangible than before.

I can't remember if MGSIV got railed for the B&B Unit as much as it probably should have. But yeah, that was pretty bad. Quiet is probably the result of Kojima getting away with too much lol
 
The Boss is imo the best female video game character of all time. To even compare her to the Beasts in MGS 4 or Quiet seems crazy to me :p

I mean tbh I kinda haven't actually played any MGS games, but I have friends who're superfans so I've absorbed a lot of lore by osmosis. Maybe in context she's strong, but my understanding is she allows herself to become a victim for Major Zero's sake; even if she technically goes out fighting, it's in order to cover up the Philosopher's fuck up.
 
The near constant objectification and sexualization of women in gaming, which not only sours new IP but also have involved the regression of many different prominent series, (fire emblem, metroid, final fantasy, as two examples), is wrong. Some of the most genuine examples of male sexualization are outright hated
Mobius-FF-Shot-03.jpg

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yet you'd not get anywhere near the amount of excuses for these as you would for a character like Cindy. And she doesn't even have sex appeal, she has about as much sex appeal as a sexy halloween costume, it's so boring and creatively bankrupt for a female cahracter to have large breasts, a thong, and an exposed midriff, and borderline the same face as every other woman in the game. It's also juvenile, we're never gonna find out a reason why Cidney dresses like that, in fact, even if there was a reason it's likely just as stupid as "she breaths through her skin" considering the context of the game. It's certainly not a commentary on sexualization because it's played completely straight. She will most likely also not do anything that even remotely has to do with sex whatsoever, so yea, there's plenty wrong with sex appeal in the majority of games that feature it. It's often out of place and juvenile and characters like Cidney are perfect examples of why.

Yep. And to add to the hypocrisy of the Mobius thing, here is this latest character you can play as in that game:

and then we have tons ability cards like this:
Ah Lightning dyed her hair blond i see.
wrong
 

LordKasual

Banned
I mean tbh I kinda haven't actually played any MGS games, but I have friends who're superfans so I've absorbed a lot of lore by osmosis. Maybe in context she's strong, but my understanding is she allows herself to become a victim for Major Zero's sake; even if she technically goes out fighting, it's in order to cover up the Philosopher's fuck up.

The Boss is a "strong" character kind of played straight.

She's the mentor of Naked Snake and all of his melee techniques were taught by her. She's a legendary soldier and commands respect from literally everyone in the cast. In fact, she holds so much integrity and respect that she's at the root of almost everyone's motivations.

Her sacrifice pretty much single handedly sets Big Boss, Ocelot, Eva, and everyone else connected to her in the story on their path throughout MGS1-4.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Has Square Enix actually responded to any of the complaints regarding Cidney's design?

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-15-director-addresses-complaints-inc/1100-6426966/

Also during the presentation, Tabata and Ofuji responded to a complaint that the game's Cindy character (above) was "too sexy."

"She's actually not meant to be an erotic character," Tabata explained. "Her character is very energetic and outgoing, a very active character. With those traits paired with her appearance, we feel it wouldn't be too problematic even if, say, she shows up on screen while your parents are in the living room."

Ofuji added that the concerns might stem from the "amount of skin" she shows being too much for someone whose line of work is fixing cars. "Oh, I see," Tabata replied. "But she is a very cheerful and active character, I don't think we want to change the current concept."

I mean...If Cindy were to just appear on the screen with no context, i'd be somewhat embarrassed in public.

But after hearing her speak, I don't think most people would have an issue with her. My sisters seemed quite taken by her, even after pointing out her cleavage window. Again, she doesn't overtly do anything with her body that's cringeworthy. She is just wearing very skimpy clothing.
 
Has Square Enix actually responded to any of the complaints regarding Cidney's design?

They only off-handidly referenced in regard to complaints received from Europe about Episode Duscae in an ATR. It's where the infamous 'they don't like Cidney's design but want a female party member? CONTRADICTION' quote comes from, though it was the producer, not Tabata himself who said it.

They may have referenced it elsewhere, but if anything they've seemed to doubled down on Cidney pandering, what with that Car decal Pre-order DLC.


>not erotic

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Yeah. Sure.

And christ that eye shadow is really bothering me now. It's like the only reason she'd have it is if she were doing a photoshoot.
 

LordKasual

Banned
They only off-handidly referenced in regard to complaints received from Europe about Episode Duscae in an ATR. It's where the infamous 'they don't like Cidney's design but want a female party member? CONTRADICTION' quote comes from, though it was the producer, not Tabata himself who said it.

They may have referenced it elsewhere, but if anything they've seemed to doubled down on Cidney pandering, what with that Car decal Pre-order DLC.



>not erotic

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Yeah. Sure.

The >outfit< is erotic.

Cindy herself is not doing anything erotic in any of those clips.

Imagine her in regular clothing doing all of these actions and nothing would look out of the ordinary or forced.

...Except the tan line ass shot, which is a result of the player playing the game, not the game feeding you her ass in a cutscene.

Her facial expressions are even pretty candid, surprisingly.
 

LordKasual

Banned
You're grasping at straws man. Her animations are super hip-sway-y and the camera loves to focus in on her boobs and ass.

Whatever. You're seeing whatever you want to see. I've already given you clear examples of what you're claiming she's doing and the difference is obvious.

I will agree that her outfit is stupid. But I will grant Square this; she does actually emote and animate like an otherwise regular person, thank god. The issue with Cindy is her outfit, not her character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ8VWosCGVg

If you feel like she animates "erotically" then i dont really know what to tell you.

Edit:

Okay just gotta point out, at least in these scenes, I love Cindy's VO. It can feel a bit unnatural during the generic cutscene animations, but when she's actually under mo-cap she sells the southern accent pretty well.
 
Sexuality is different from sexualization. But black and white attitude does not do anyone any good. I think people should be careful when picking their fights because not everything is worth being upset about. Feminism has done a lot of progress over the last century. There is still lots to do, but radical feminism only harms society and makes people resent each other. I am a white heterosexual male and I do NOT enjoy Cidney at all, but those who do enjoy her does not automatically mean they are misogynistic. Let's have productive conversations. Some of the things other people say sometimes will seem outrageous but they are necessary to be heard if you want to understand them and try to change their point of view in a productive manner. Yeah, I'll get off my high horse now.
 

Makki

Member
Yes. They had an Actice Time presentation that responded to feedback.

The only thing said about it was that the complaints "seemed hypocritical."

I didnt watch this, but I assume that in a way they feel it's the US policing Japan with their own ideals and beliefs... although it's more like a small very vocal group that carries a lot of weight lately, due to the increased exposure on people who feel their gender/identity is marginalized by videogames. Perhaps they see the same "exploitation" in our broadcasted media and wonder why a few loud american voices have been influencing their videogame media so heavily?

A virtual ass shot of a fictitious character in shorts for an JRPG is not worth talking about in reference to issues around the world related to the female gender when you step out of the US. It's not like we have a proven generation of misogynists stemming from seeing too much fanservice... if anything it's given birth to "Mylady" archetypes that can't approach the other gender without creating repulsion.
 

PtM

Banned
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-15-director-addresses-complaints-inc/1100-6426966/



I mean...If Cindy were to just appear on the screen with no context, i'd be somewhat embarrassed in public.

But after hearing her speak, I don't think most people would have an issue with her. My sisters seemed quite taken by her, even after pointing out her cleavage window. Again, she doesn't overtly do anything with her body that's cringeworthy. She is just wearing very skimpy clothing.
I don't get what he's saying. Why does an outgoing girl need to look like a centrefold? Is she supposed to be some kind of boner pixie girl?

Wait... Is she supposed to be sexually proactive?


I also think it's mostly just the clothes.
 

Jonnax

Member
If this isn't an out-of-context misquote to give it a particular meaning, then that is really, really frustrating thinking.

Yeah. After watching Kingsglaive I'm thinking the game is going to be disappointing in terms of its female characters.

From what is said in the film, I'm guessing. Luna's duty will be
to die for Noctis so that he can get the the power from the ring as Nyx rejected sacrificing the princess or his friend so had to die himself.

Which is just lame, the other woman in the film, Crowe, is a plot device, rather than a character to motivate male characters.
 
Yeah. After watching Kingsglaive I'm thinking the game is going to be disappointing in terms of its female characters.

From what is said in the film, I'm guessing. Luna's duty will be
to die for Noctis so that he can get the the power from the ring as Nyx rejected sacrificing the princess or his friend so had to die himself.

Which is just lame, the other woman in the film, Crowe, is a plot device, rather than a character to motivate male characters.
Ummm... [Kingsglaive Spoilers]
I think Nyx had to sacrifice someone since he wasn't of royal blood, therefore had to be judged. I don't think Lucian Kings will judge Noct since he is already of Lucis blood.
 

Jonnax

Member
Ummm... [Kingsglaive Spoilers]
I think Nyx had to sacrifice someone since he wasn't of royal blood, therefore had to be judged. I don't think Lucian Kings will judge Noct since he is already of Lucis blood.

Did they explicitly say that in the film? I presume Noctis will have to do something to gain that power.

Also seems tenuous but that Florence in the Machine song has the line "Maybe Luna had it right" and I think that kinda adds up to the the whole "my duty" thing.
 
Did they explicitly say that in the film? I presume Noctis will have to do something to gain that power.

Also seems tenuous but that Florence in the Machine song has the line "Maybe Luna had it right" and I think that kinda adds up to the the whole "my duty" thing.
I don't think they explicitly said that, but the way they talk to Nyx implies it. They say that he is not of royal blood so he can't command them. I think that's also the reason that they need to judge him and he will need to make a sacrifice to gain power. Also, I think the outcome of judgment varies from person to person. For instance Ravus was deemed unworthy yet they only burned one of his arms while that other guy was completely burned to ashes.

I think if there is even a judgment to be held for Noct, he'll probably have to pay a lot less than Nyx to gain power, since he is of royal blood. After all, Noct already has some of these powers even before wearing the ring, so he is definitely worthy.
 
I didnt watch this, but I assume that in a way they feel it's the US policing Japan with their own ideals and beliefs... although it's more like a small very vocal group that carries a lot of weight lately, due to the increased exposure on people who feel their gender/identity is marginalized by videogames. Perhaps they see the same "exploitation" in our broadcasted media and wonder why a few loud american voices have been influencing their videogame media so heavily?

A virtual ass shot of a fictitious character in shorts for an JRPG is not worth talking about in reference to issues around the world related to the female gender when you step out of the US. It's not like we have a proven generation of misogynists stemming from seeing too much fanservice... if anything it's given birth to "Mylady" archetypes that can't approach the other gender without creating repulsion.

What crazy nonsense is this
 
Just watch the video above, it jumps right to that segment.

I've seen the whole ATR before; I was saying that even though it wasn't actually said by Tabata, it seems like an accurate reflection of the team's mentality.

Curious, how do people feel Toriyama handled female characters in general? I felt XIII sans... whatever Vanille was, was pretty decent with Fang and Lightening, but it seems that his uh, 'affection' for Lightening got increasingly silly as the series went on. (Is comparing Lightening to Poochie a thing? I coulda sworn I've seen other people make that comparison before).
 
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