-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
New super hot Final Fantasy XV CG character renders (Cidney, Iris, etc.)
- Thread starter miku
- Start date
Her design was more silly in 2011.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=b74d6ea08a76742f1392a070daff7050&oe=58A42B09
It's problematic to be attracted by beautiful women, look at Trump ; )
joke aside, I'm not equating all women to sex appeal like Women don't equated all Men to sex appeal.
You can't talk for all women, many women use their body or their sexiness as weapon to get success or something they want, it's nothing new, I'm not saying all women are like that or like to be "objectified" but some do.
Like I said earlier, don't speak for women, if they want to wear something sexy or not, it's to her to decide, not what other people think or want for them.
I agree it doesn't sound as great as it was in my head, it's nothing misogynistic at all, I love women and their body, women are beautiful to me, no matter what they are or wear, just saying.
I don't want to talk with someone that say "Fuck you" to someone that doesn't think like you, you lose your argument there.
Well, I'm a guy and I do guy stuff, you know, like guys...
+1, and thanks to everyone else who responded to this post so I don't have to.
It's downright astonishing to see some of the regressive views posted in threads like these. Feels like I've been teleported to the 60s or something.
You completely missed the point about fictional women having absolutely no agency when it comes to what they dress up in. Because, you know, they're not real.
With real women this would be an entirely relevant and commendable view to take. But Cidney is not real. She was designed. By men.
She is, basically a general for the empire.
Son Of Sparda
Member
A little late to discussion but I don't think anyone hated Neo-Dante cause he was sexualized. People had other more fundamental problems with him and the game.
Not trying to defend anything. Just saying that using Neo-Dante as some sort of hated character because of sexualization is simply not true.
Not trying to defend anything. Just saying that using Neo-Dante as some sort of hated character because of sexualization is simply not true.
You are 100%correct that the devs SHOULD care about proper representation, but SE (and to be honest seemingly most japanese devs) are woefully ignorant how their foreign players think and feel. Look at FFXIV. The producer/director had NO clue how bad the latency was for foreign players until he actually played at fanfest and wanted to know why the latency was so bad. This is even with a robust offical forum and community outreach! They pretty much see the west as a "money printing black box". They pretty much say : "well lets but some chick in hot pants and give her huge tits and have her flop them around." Because that's how they see how you market her in japan. And if it fails it wasn't because of cidney, it was in spite of her. SE has an extremely simplistic and ignorant view of its western players
But if we're going down this road then a fictional women can never wear revealing clothing
Please show me the ambiguity in your original comment which would permit me to believe you were doing anything other than equating women to their sex appeal.
Understand that to say that 'women are sexy and that's why we love them' is close to the textbook definition of misogyny. You belittle women by equating their value directly to sex appeal.
What do you think this comment achieves when presented to people that have experienced routine objectification in their daily lives? Sexual harrassment by your implication is 'guy stuff'. Attempting to normalise this behaviour suggests you condone it, which is deplorable.
let's be honest shall we, cidney will have no impact whatsoever on the chances of success of this game. the number of people boycotting/buying this game because of her is probably not even worth counting
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
Ravus' design is actually one of my favorites, but to each their own. It feels more like FF to me than a lot of the others, and dat arm is badass.
Yeah. I don't get the hate. The color scheme all meshes really well. The design isn't really over complicated. The top half just looks like a basic military dress coat. The bottom is a simple purple trim, a few crosses, and a coat of arms. Is it the fact that he's wearing leg armor or has traditional FF belts that's throwing everyone?
Now, as a character, he's been a prick so far, but I like his design.
I liked Xemnas too though, which everybody also apparently hates.
to me the more fantasy you go the better it is. not a fan of the normal style of the main cast
LordKasual
Banned
Well...I could be wrong. But it sounds like you've resigned yourself to a bubble world, where the only people who share your viewpoints are those who are already as jaded as yourself, and the very people you wish to change are going to write you off as irrationally angry or just flat-out ignore you. Especially if you're judging them as something bad and hateful and they can't even identify why. This is the sort of issue that, unfortunately, just isn't that important to people it doesn't directly affect. So you raging out and accusing someone just because they like something isn't going to spark thinking. It's just going to push them away. And when the world is already slanted against positive change, you only serve as an easy example for why they shouldn't even bother with it. This is why i call it counterproductive.
But, to each their own, lambaste whomever you please. Just know it's likely going in one ear and out the other. I'm not about to accuse people of being misogynistic just because they are doing what their brain naturally does when they see an attractive figure.
....buuuut i AM going to sit back and watch Angel_DvA struggle against an unrelenting force of accusation and assumption. Maybe he'll yield and acknowledge that he's learned something. But i'm guessing he wont, and I can't even blame him for it, since he expressed an opinion and was greeted with a "Fuck you" and then promptly had words shoved in his mouth.
She's a fictional character like you said, I'm sure her feeling will be ok... Joke aside, what's blow my mind is people that can't understand that some people like to wear stuff like this, like to be sexy and don't want to be dictate by other people what they can wear or not to be a woman, maybe Cidney is one of them, she has a perfect body and exposed it, it's what attractive people do, did you ever go to a club or a gym or at the beach ?
like I already said, I'm not equating all women to sex appeal like Women don't equated all Men to sex appeal, there is no ambiguity at all...
I was just talking as a man, I like girls because they're sexy, I'm not saying that's the only thing I love in women, but we aren't talking about their personalities or whatever but about their outfit being sexy or not...
You're overeacting, I'm just teasing/joking, why so serious lol, I think you guys could get it, whatever...
Of course they can. Someone named EVA from MGS3 earlier in this thread and it's actually a great example. Her way of clothing actually had a connection to her character and story. She wasn't just sexy so players could fap to her, but it actually had a justification in universe. And a great one at that. Other example: Kaine from Nier. She is a transsexual character wearing very revealing clothes, but again, if you study her character you know why and it makes total sense. Characters in Persona 4 wear bikinis when they go to the beach, because that's what you wear in that scenario.
On the other side there are characters like Quiet from MGSV who are just designed to be fap material, only to then get some lame-ass hilarious excuse for why it totally makes sense. And THEN there are characters like Cidney who are just designed like that because "duh, that's how you design women in games!".
Wasn't it Tabata who was confused that western Fans weren't happy about Cidney's Design AND wanted a woman in the main party because he just couldn't even grasp the fact that maybe people wanted woman as an actual character in their party, just not as fap material? Maybe I'm mixing that up. Can't find the clip anymore.
You HAVE to be trolling. Did you ever go to a car workshop? Because she is a mechanic, working on cars, doing her job, not some sexy girl at the beach whos only wish it is for you to goggle at her.
Yeah it's annoying, the amount of people with overreaction and shit, it's like I'm the devil and support sexual harassment because I said girls are sexy lol... people are too much sometimes, they need to chill, I was just sharing my two cents and I'm out, don't want to go further in it, I won't change my mind and they won't too.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt to help you understand why speaking in such a way undermines people and can do real harm. Look at this comment again seriously:
What about this persons experience is a joke to you?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Neither can you. You're talking about characters designed specifically for men and trying to equate that to real life women who actually have agency and design making, (and here's something that may come as a shocker to someone who evidently only loves women because "they're sexy," a lot of the times women are not dressed to attract men). You're spending so much time mansplaining that you either have no self awareness whatsoever to how much you're a sexist, or you realize it and this is a "fuck you got mine" situation when it comes to one gender being misrepresented near constantly.
But how valuable the context is can also be pretty subjective. I bet I can find you people who don't like Eva, kain or the beach segments in persona at all. Similarly will there be people who find the explanation for Quiet good enough.
You also didn't really address the agency problem. If we say that it's OK for real rolemodels to wear revealing clothing because they have agency and also say that fictional characters can't have agency then the only conclusion would be that there shouldn't be anymore characters that wear revealing stuff.
It has to be justified by both context and writing.
In this particular context where Cidney is supposed to be a car mechanic, it is completely unjustifiable. You literally can't make up an excuse that makes sense when you're talking about someone who deals with grease and hot oil all the time.
Now, if she were a fashion model having pictures taken at a shoot, then her getup would totally make sense. But, well, she's not.
I should also note that intentionally having a character written on purpose to justify wearing something incredibly stupid and then showing why that outfit is incredibly stupid to wear is thoroughly insipid and only serves to make that particular character look like a complete idiot, which, if that's what you were going for... okay? But it's a total waste of a character, IMO.
You're making assumptions here. I have only ever been badmouthing the thought process and the designs in question. If people see that criticism and then assume that I am criticizing them as people, there is not a whole lot I can do about that aside from emphasize the point as much as possible.
I'm not going to tiptoe around peoples' feelings on the matter when no one does the same for me. I am constantly having my views shoved aside in favor of the status quo. I fail to see why I should return that with any level of respect.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There were a shit ton of complaints about the intro scene to DmC, knowing the male gaming audience and how terribly it handles genuine male sexualization, gender issues, sexism issues, and race issues as a whole, a shit ton of those complaints were likely due to the objectification of the dude they're supposed to self insert themselves into, compared to just being shirtless and just bragging about hypothetically banging a woman. I wasn't trying to imply that people hated Dante in DmC specifically because of that moment.
LordKasual
Banned
That wasn't Tabata, it was the other guy.
And i've been saying, it's really not a stretch to assume that Cindy could dress that way on purpose, in the context of the story, and deliberately as a mechanic. The effects of her appearance are obvious on the party and although she pretends to not notice the guys are hitting on her, it's very possible that she's just so used to it that she doesn't have to try to deflect it. Her charm works on the party and has the bros talking about her long after they drive off, and Cindy is presumably the only one you call when your car breaks down. She is still clearly dressed up as a sex tease, but in the context of the game itself, the effects (so far) make realistic sense.
Similar tactic to bikini car washes or scantly clad baristas / waitresses. No less tactless, no less objectification, but a realistic application of sexuality nontheless.
Now...how Cindy has been used in advertising, that's a bit different. It's clear the developers are parading her around because they know what it does to men who look at her, which makes it more likely she's dressed that way solely because the developers had fun looking at her while modeling her. But just throwing it out there. The worst part about Cindy to me is how she's being used in advertising (car skin, VR, ect), not just the fact that she's scantly clad. But i don't see why her dressing like deliberately in the context of the story, and her being designed like that for the benefit of the advertising have to be mutually exclusive.
Quiet is a different case entirely from Cindy IMO. She's wearing practically nothing and the world explanation for why she's doing so literally only applies to her. Not to mention, the animations and story segments we're forced to watch with Quiet are unmistakable in purpose, while Cindy herself really doesn't do anything out of the ordinary other than...wear her revealing outfit. We aren't getting dances, we aren't watching her take showers, and she doesn't actively tease the player with her dialogue or body language. She just kinda does her thing, while being stupidly attractive...in the most shallow way possible.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Well I meant the article laid out a good argument on economic grounds for representation, that with minority groups making up more of the marketplace you can't simply ignore their tastes and expect not to be economically punished.
And again for the record I don't have a problem with Otaku games, it's when their tastes become predominant to the exclusion of everyone else that it becomes problematic, at least to me.
Yeah, I can see your point, especially given Angel_DvA's posts. :/
I get people not wanting to have their interests attacked, but they often go too far in trying to silence people who disagree with them. I can't pretend I'm a victim when I'm trying to preserve a monopoly of content. I think the whole environment would be a lot less toxic if people who did enjoy this stuff were more self-aware of other people's perspectives.
You missed the point there. It doesn't matter if it is successful or not. Marketing is the reason behind her outfit and creation.
Yeah, I agree. And unfortunately, the "Otakuness" of Japanese culture is creeping into just about everything.
If you throw out sexist generalizations and are ignorant of the people you walk over when spouting them, you'd better prepare to be thoroughly challenged.
This statement in context is still absolutely incredible. Christ.
I don't really wanna get sucked into this argument, but c'mon man.
That was unnecessarily antagonistic. Which is it? Can they be offended, or should they let it go? Or maybe it's okay for them to be offended as long as they keep quiet about it because you don't wanna hear it? Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that was how it came across to me.
There are ways to express your opinions without trying to make other people feel stupid or silly for feeling the way they do. It's perfectly fine to disagree with people, but it seemed like you were being needlessly dismissive right outta the gate, rather than trying to have a legitimate discussion.
KZXcellent
Member
LOL... women can be sexy, you are being very myopic while trying to advance the view on women in games through conservative outfits. Not every game needs to represent fully clothed women to show female strength, not everything has to be the same shade of color. Theres plenty of characters in this game that dont stick to the trope that upsets you so much.
For all the hate on sexuality, I wish there was more outrage over violence. Tomb Raider's new direction where Lara trades sex appeal for torture porn for example, yet the new direction has been claimed progressive by some.... if anything that shit should be more offensive.
ScherzoPrime
Member
You're misrepresenting their argument; the issue isn't that Cidney is sexy, the issue is that she was designed very clearly to pander to a specific demographic, and basically only serve in that function (look at that fucking car DLC!). Tifa and Lulu were sexy as hell, but there was way more to them than just being eye candy.
But I think at this point a big part of the problem is just the constant bandwagon support for her done out of bad faith. I honestly, personally, don't really care if she's in the game like this or not, but there's no real good reason to defend her inclusion beyond authorial fiat, and even then people should feel free to challenge SE for why they let Tabata do this in the first place.
Laiza's already said along the lines that stuff like DoAX and Senran Kagura isn't as bad since it's marketed up front with that stuff. The larger problem is big games that make a character or female designs with the idea of appealing to sexual interests where it's not needed.
That said, this type of design's one that's usually made with the Japanese audience in mind, so it's unknown how much effect western reception would really affect it despite the majority of FF sales coming from the west.
That said, I wouldn't say offended, but I did avoid the new Tomb Raider due to all the gore in the trailers.
Son Of Sparda
Member
You are being judgmental towards people in a situation that you seem not to fully comprehend.
Yes, there were a shit ton of complaints about DmC's intro but the vast majority of it had nothing to do with nudity or sexualization of Dante. Most people were irritated because of that "not in million years" comment from Dante after he was fully clothed. Earlier during the development NT and Capcom had alienated DMC fanbase by trying to shit on older titles and Dante's character in them. So that scene in particular seemed like a "Fuck You" from NT to OG fans hence the reactions it got.
I personally thought it was a nice little nudge to OG series and how Dante's hairs will eventually turn white (SPOLlERS: they did) but at that time it really felt like a stupid idea to put it in since the relation between fans and devs was pretty bad.
So again. Neo-Dante was hated for a lot of reasons (some were legit and some were silly) but I don't think sexualization was ever one of them.
Yeah. I didn't really hear any complaints about the nudity or they were such a minority as to be discarded and easily passed over. The 'white hair' comment was definitely a big talking point though.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Every woman we've seen so far seems to fall into every insufferable outdated trope actually.
-Strong willed damsel in distress who's entire purpose is written around the male character
-Pointlessly objectified and shallow helper
-Character who looks way too young for the romantic implications
-Wise older woman who doesn't age
-Literally the only prominent female enemy being sexualized
Part of it was man. You'd find a lot more male gamers taking issue with that sort of imagery than those that don't, and just to reiterate, a lot less tripping over themselves to come up with shitty excuses, like if someone criticized that scene for sexualizing Dante you'd NEVER see one of these dudes who just care so much about game violence popping out of the woodwork and wanna have a discussion about it, likely because it's almost like a defense mechanism because 3D titties are being threatened.
I saw it as a moment where Luna was used as an object to portray Ardyn's villainy.
The reason for that is because the camera focus is on Ardyn and his actions rather than on Luna, meaning the purpose of those scenes was to characterize Ardyn. A close up on his face turning angry, then a zoomed out view where Luna is not facing the camera but Ardyn is, and his action is the centerpiece.
In comparison there was a scene I saw from a Chinese drama where a kneeling woman goaded a man into slapping her, and the camera focus in that scene was on her, both before the slap (there was a brief cut of the anger on the man's face, but it was not a close up) and the shot after the slap was solely focused on the woman on the ground and her reaction. The scene was about what SHE wanted from him, not about him looking more villainous by slapping her.
"Seeing confrontation" doesn't equal strong character. The problem thus far with Luna is the portrayal of passivity. The speeches presented in trailers as "leader/strong character" moments are actually weak and lame. Gibberish to Leviathan and canned generic hero lines to a tiny crowd.
In comparison, (again a Chinese drama example) in a trailer a woman dressed in extravagant robes addresses a sea of fully armored and spear-wielding soldiers, her voice filled with conviction and her facial expressions emphasizing her words: "Soldiers! Today, we adopt these new laws in our country of Qin. Tomorrow, the whole world could also adopt these same laws. For every effort you make, you will be rewarded!" It is the implication of this cut in the trailer that this is how she gains the support of the army; even without the historical context of her story it is understandable and admirable. The woman who addresses this army is properly fierce, her presence commanding.
To put it bluntly, Luna is not special, intriguing, active, or compelling in any way. From my perspective, there's just a bunch of excuses and desperate explaining as to why Luna is so passive, how she is so strong, how awesome and important she is, but this is all tell and no show. I've seen more, and I've seen much better.
If you think that women's idea of "the perfect guy in everything" includes him being a "powerful womanizer", I think it's safe to say you have no idea what women think and therefore no understanding of the Cindy/female representation issue.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
What I do not understand is this is a fantasy, imaginative video game, so why does everything have to go with context? The creators probably wanted a really sexy female mechanic or whatever in the game. Why? I don't know why and I am not going to even try to justify the reason behind her design, but it is probably because they wanted her to look that way aesthetically. Sure, it may look out of place and even obscene to some, but why does it need to be justifiable in a fantasy video game where there are little flying bat people with squeaky voices, fire breathing-monstrosities big a buildings, flying airships, magic everywhere and people throwing fire, ice and poison out of their hands? We all know Japanese games sometimes deviate from practicality and realism(which I admittedly like), so I doubt FF15 will be any different.
This is pretty much why I've mentioned I expect Luna will be more the central point of sexism discussions of FFXV more than Cindy past release.
Ah Lightning dyed her hair blond i see.
ScherzoPrime
Member
That sorta reminds me of RLM's nonsense argument of "It's outer space so they don't have to care about representation!" from their Episode VII review. Art reflects life, you can't say the human characters are completely divorced from the reality of our world. Especially when the fucking tagline of this project has been "This is a Fantasy based on Reality".
I mean fuck, I'm honestly one who likes cheesecake in certain media, but let's not pretend like our tastes are the only ones who matter here. If we can't admit that you know maybe not every game should have sexualized women in it, then we really do have a serious problem.
I think it'll be a holistic analysis of how Tabata doesn't really value or consider female agency, with the objectification of Cidney being a highly visible but relatively minor example.
All this discussion is around Cindy...but aren't the four lead males just as pointlessly sex'd up? Gladiolus walks around with shredded abs out, and the sleeveless Prompto is falling into some other sexy-male stereotype for sure. This entire game is just packed to with sexy pandering. Maybe Cindy is the silliest design, but shes got a bit of company.
On another note...I asked my wife about Cindy's design. She laughed a bit and said she wished she could pull off that output without getting fired.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If that dude knew how much effort goes into making a character look realistic in-game with the skin and hair shaders being much more realistic than they've ever been along with intentional flaws in the pores and making sure that every monster in the game has proper anatomy based on the study of real animals and what not that whole "it's a video game it's not supposed to be realistic" falls so goddamn flat. Seriously people need more excuses.
As soon as you can find a camera angle focusing on Gladio's abs ingame be my guest and make a gif of it. There's a difference between conventionally attractive and sexualized, most video game protagonists are conventionally attractive, so much so, that it's notable when a main character is legitimately ugly. BUT, it's not just the design, it's intention as well, intention applies to animation, cinematography, not just character design. The closest thing we got to Gladio being sexualized is promo pictures that don't represent the game at all.
Son Of Sparda
Member
As I said, in this case, you are being extremely judgmental without having any actual source or facts to back it up.
ScherzoPrime
Member
That's a total false equivalency. Again this isn't really about how attractive the characters are, but rather how fundamentally sexualized they are. It's not just her outfit, Cidney's body language and animations are all meant to titillate (the reward for the FFXV VR experience is looking at Cidney's bewbs, for example).
I mean it's just kind of dumb to me personally, but to a lot of people it's more than that and they shouldn't be shut down by half-hearted deflections.
Like, if you like her design, fine, but your feelings for it doesn't somehow put it beyond reproach.
Yeah. Let's actually push away a lot of the discussion in the area. The reason Quiet and Cidney in particular are so scrutinized is because almost every aspect of them seems to be sexualized to the point that they stick out like a sore thumb and come off as being completely designed as a sex object. That might not be bad if it was a game where that was a point like an outright fanservice game, but they're in stories that are kinda-sorta supposed to be taken seriously.
Son Of Sparda
Member
"Wait, why is there a Lightning picture in this thread? Also what's wrong with her hair color?"
*reads the earlier posts*
"What?! That's not Lightning but a villain in FFXV?
"ScherzoPrime
Member
Well with Quiet, and I don't want to say this excuses it at all, but that weirdness (Sexualization given how fucked up she was) plays into the general Kojimaness of it all. Honestly basically all of Kojima's games handle women problematically, tending to fetishize women as victims (Desert Wolf, Olga, Fortune, The Boss, Paz, The Beauty and The Beast, Quiet).