The complaints about Cindy have spawned so many dumbshit responses I have enough material for a Fanservice Discussion bingo card. Tempting, tempting...
One of the squares would definitely mention burqas.
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New super hot Final Fantasy XV CG character renders (Cidney, Iris, etc.)
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The complaints about Cindy have spawned so many dumbshit responses I have enough material for a Fanservice Discussion bingo card. Tempting, tempting...
One of the squares would definitely mention burqas.
ScherzoPrime
Member
That's sort of where I stand; I like fanservice to a degree, but I can't just demand people who have issues with it to just 'shut up' because they disagree with me. I think people have a right to like what they want, but that doesn't give them the right to not be criticized for it.
I think it's because, well, in "fantasy worlds" , stuff like that IS the norm. The expectations. That men are men and women are bikini-clad male fantasies. It's why Cindy is wearing utterly impractical clothing and showing her chest off to the world but male Cid is dressed like a sensible car mechanic (we want to see Cindy in skimpy clothing, but not the old man whose profession she shares). It's why there's characters like Quiet in Metal Gear who "NEED" to be mostly naked to survive! ("you will be ashamed of your words and deeds"...)
It's disproportionate. For every well-dressed female character, there's often a dozen scantily-clad fantasy women running around. For every Gladio (and even he isn't nearly as ogled by the camera as Cindy is), there's an inverse of a vast majority of men dressed sensibly and realistically.
The "we have to show them in a bikini somehow" philosophy IS pretty bone-headed, but don't think that people like me do give them a pass. We don't. I was born in Japan and it's something I've spoken out against for a very long time in an industry I do love.
But it's not even exactly a Japanese-unique problem. Western nations have glorified and advertised sex and sexy fantasy women for decades upon decades upon decades, and it's simply hard and difficult to basically stand against a global worldview that has consistently and definitively portrayed women in roles no greater than "sex object", no matter how many baby steps we take.
... Back on topic, I do find it amusing just how much the Kingsglaive interpretations DON'T match up well to the game interpretations, though you can clearly see them taking small steps over time to find that middle ground. It's rather bizarre.
Yet Cindy is the only fanservice object in the game (maybe also the Dragoon but she's toned down a lot from the 2011 outfit). Luna and Iris look just fine, granted FFXV doesn't have that many female characters to begin with.
And regarding the trend in the industry, I'm expecting more fanservices in the future. When people analyze Fire Emblem Awakening's success, they gonna draw the conclusion that waifu sells game. No wonder Nintendo shipped a couple of bikini armors in XBX. Atlus also clearly know the trick. Just look at what they chose to add to P4G and SMT4A.
natethegreat409
Member
Hahaha nailed it.
Oh, I think you meant to say "without" instead of "with". That's what confused me.
And yeah, it actually feels like Japan is regressing in this regard over time. It's bizarre. I wonder how the feminist scene is doing over there. Doesn't seem like it's making much ground right now.
Indeed. I don't necessarily have a problem with games like the Senran Kagura series or DoAXBV because they advertise what they're about up-front and I'm totally free to completely ignore them. At least there's no pretense involved, though I might find some of the details of the objectification to be a bit icky at times.
On the flip side, there's games like PSO2 where they literally can make anything they want an outfit and put it in the game... and like 90% of all the female outfits are sexualized tripe. It's downright depressing how bloody sexist the game is, and yet I still play it because it has solid action RPG gameplay and one of the few character creators that lets me make an androgynous muscular woman. I don't really have the option of just avoiding it because the entire game is suffused with the stuff.
I wonder if anything will change when full-immersion VR becomes a thing and people are suddenly dealing with the sexual harassment firsthand instead of it being nonexistent because everyone's disconnected through a monitor. Maybe guys will finally learn a bit of empathy. Maybe. It's my only hope!
I kinda get the feeling by the time FFXV comes back, most sexism talk around the game will actually be around Luna and characterization myself though Cindy'll always be a talking point. Just a guess on my part.
Much to NoA's continuing frustration.
Bioware and many companies have learned this one.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I mean, I'm of the opinion that fan-service is never going to leave basically any industry. What I think will happen though is it'll be more equal oppurtunity, more recognized when it appears (publicly I mean), and generally also acknowledged that there are a lot of people who don't want sexuality in everything they consume.
I guess I do think it's right to push back against the mentality of the manchild who believes everything he consumes must meet all his tastes, that he has a right to have his tastes satisfied to the exclusion of others. I think it's more than fair to attack the idea that male interests should have a privileged position in deciding the content of most games.
There are some pretty significant recent Anime works with Feminist themes, specifically Michiko e Hatchin and The Woman Called Fujiko Mine. (Both by the same female Director btw!) I think the issue with Japanese nerd media is that the Otaku demographic is the only one who they can count on to buy their wares in droves. Honestly to me it's less the scantily clad women and more the references to stuff like "You really need to get married" that irritates me the most, though honestly even for a deviant like me I'm beginning to grow tired of the 'girl in the shower as an excuse for ass/sideboob shot' trope. At least their's much more room for beefcake in the industry though. (Also Light Novel garbage is nothing but endless, interchangeable male power fantasies, and I say this as a soft sadist).
Yeah, it's pretty telling when you have a lot of customization but everything is revealing who their target demo is. At the very least it should have the full spectrum for all characters.
I think part of the issue is to a certain extent part of nerd stuff is anti-social, they do it to escape reality and want their products to be catered specifically to them. It's what drives the idol industry as well, which honestly I find the most abhorrent of all as it forces real humans to be porcelain dolls. I mean, personally I feel like people can have spaces to enact their fantasies, but that doesn't give them the right to subject other people to them.
I guess I do think it's right to push back against the mentality of the manchild who believes everything he consumes must meet all his tastes, that he has a right to have his tastes satisfied to the exclusion of others. I think it's more than fair to attack the idea that male interests should have a privileged position in deciding the content of most games.
There are some pretty significant recent Anime works with Feminist themes, specifically Michiko e Hatchin and The Woman Called Fujiko Mine. (Both by the same female Director btw!) I think the issue with Japanese nerd media is that the Otaku demographic is the only one who they can count on to buy their wares in droves. Honestly to me it's less the scantily clad women and more the references to stuff like "You really need to get married" that irritates me the most, though honestly even for a deviant like me I'm beginning to grow tired of the 'girl in the shower as an excuse for ass/sideboob shot' trope. At least their's much more room for beefcake in the industry though. (Also Light Novel garbage is nothing but endless, interchangeable male power fantasies, and I say this as a soft sadist).
Yeah, it's pretty telling when you have a lot of customization but everything is revealing who their target demo is. At the very least it should have the full spectrum for all characters.
I think part of the issue is to a certain extent part of nerd stuff is anti-social, they do it to escape reality and want their products to be catered specifically to them. It's what drives the idol industry as well, which honestly I find the most abhorrent of all as it forces real humans to be porcelain dolls. I mean, personally I feel like people can have spaces to enact their fantasies, but that doesn't give them the right to subject other people to them.
Just because I made a quip about two people using reaction gifs back to back like a buzzfeed article doesn't mean I don't care about female representation. There is a discussion to be had, because it's more complicated than sexy outfit=bad representation, and people asking for other people to explain their views on why it's bad getting the responses "Cry moar" and "you're an idiot *eyeroll*" in gif form is something I found mildly annoying enough to comment on. I try to have an actual discussion about it because I care about female representation. Allowing yourself to be so polarized that you aren't even willing to discuss why people feel the way they do isn't much better than not discussing the issues at all, in my opinion.
But I'll agree it's tiring and I'm pretty sick of it too. I'd gone cold turkey on discussing Cidney in these threads for a while now because it is so polarizing, but sometimes it's good to check back in on a topic.
I'm reserving judgement on these complaints other than on a superficial level until I play the game. Seems a bit reductive to me to write these female characters off already. As for regression, we'll see where the series goes from here.
You should make a thread about it.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
that design of that chick makes me not even wanna bother with the game. I feel insulted everytime I see it.
Mmh, I guess something happens to him in Kingsglaive...
He becomes Asian.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
He still looks incredibly caucasian in-game, he just looks less a lot less like an actual human being now.
TheJollyCorner
Member
From what I've seen, the NPCs look like they are dressed for an environment that seems fairly warm. Kinda backwoodsy... country-like.
She would stick out like a sore thumb in Minnesota in December. Not so much in Alabama. I know it's real-world comparison, but XV seems to be going for a more realistic aesthetic. Makes sense to me. She wears a ball cap like others do (you can even put one on Noct). She has an overall bright color scheme like other NPCs in that area. Is it just the fact that she has hot pants on?
LordKasual
Banned
The quickness of some of you to judge what others understand is very troubling...it's so rare to see a response like this that doesn't accuse someone of ignorance for disagreeing with them. It's just a difference of opinion, just because you believe your stance is objective and thus holds some sort of high ground doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately just your opinion. I really, really wish Cindy had a regular mechanic outfit, it would make her look so much more believable, and personally, more attractive, for it. Not to mention, we'd be rid of the pages and pages of bickering, if at least just to free up everyone some space to throw in more Stella / Image Quality complaints.
But at the same time, I see that if Cindy were fixed, there really wouldn't be much to complain about...at least concerning the larger issue of scantly clad women being used as candy trails in media. Final Fantasy has had its share of terrible outfits on women, but its also had its fair share of wonderful women protagonists, which no one seems to want to bring up, because they'd rather focus on the most egregious examples. Or they'd rather call Lunafreya a weakling because she's a 90lb princess who can be slapped. Or complain about Iris' mannerisms, or otherwise completely ignore the city that's kept running exclusively by women.
I HATE fanservice. It has ruined far too many of my older loved JP franchises.....
...But everyone who is willing realistically accept a little bit of compromise isn't a woman-hating, status quo protecting degenerate who's out to trivialize the movement towards better representation.
This sort of black and white stance on the issue will never sway another human being's opinion. You say you want to inspire change, while at the same time judging the people with the pens as hopeless scum. Please stop doing this, it is about as counterproductive as it gets.
Wouldn't they need to be alive for that?
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
TheJollyCorner
Member
It's just been amplified as graphics have progressed.
Does no one remember the scantily-clad dancers giving ole' Cecil a show in FFIV? That scene in a AAA IV Remake would likely give some people panic attacks now.
The dirty old grandpa that would hide in the bushes and watch the women swimming in their bikinis was always good for a laugh.
You know you play too much ffxiv when you read that as "He becomes Ascian" instead
LordKasual
Banned
Sequels, man. Sequels. Someone mentioned PSO2, which ditched its entire aesthetic for a fanservice model. Fire Emblem (for me anyway), Breath of Fire 6, Parasite Eve Third Birthday, Blazbl....okay maybe not Blazblue, that's always been a bit fanservice'y, but it's only gotten worse...i feel like FFX-2's campaign would have been more tolerable if fanservice wasn't the core design philosophy. Lightning has a grand fanbase but the obvious decision to crank up the fanservice to sell XIII-3: LR is the reason i never even considered picking the game up.
And then there are games that were always gratuitous with the fanservice before they realized that they only need fanservice. I quit TERA shortly after it started making new content only for the female races...Dead or Alive is a wonderful fighting game, but i feel dirty even attempting to learn it.
It's just been amplified as graphics have progressed.
Does no one remember the scantily-clad dancers giving ole' Cecil a show in FFIV? That scene in a AAA IV Remake would likely give some people panic attacks now.
The dirty old grandpa that would hide in the bushes and watch the women swimming in their bikinis was always good for a laugh.
This is likely true, i'm fully expecting Tifa to get an outfit alteration, because she is going to look ridiculous in her original outfit in FF7:R's visuals. Garnet's skintight yoga outfit would probably raise a few eyebrows as well. Fran and Ashe looked fine in XII, but would only get worse as you scale up the visuals to XV levels and the skin that is showing becomes more believable.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
That's right, now I remember why I can't stand Final Fantasy post FF9.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Your suggestion sounds too sensible for these kinds of threads. It's easier to focus on the negative versus the positive, which is why they seem to get more attention outside of maybe the hype game/console release threads.
ScherzoPrime
Member
FWIW I still like Lulu's design. ;~;
I think that's precisely WHY Cindy stands out for so many, because she IS the only blatant male fanservice object in the game.
It's an "all my friends... and Zoidberg" or "one of these things is not like the other" situation where one of them just feels like they don't belong, who stands out from the crowd for the wrong reasons.
They can make it work. It still fits FF7's gritty and seedy aesthetics of grungy Midgar with its bars and sex hotels.
no lie, you are the only person in the world i've ever seen with this attitude
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Hot pants, all yellow, a crop half jackter, a thong, and an exposed bra, if anything, that screenshot just shows how egregious she looks compared to everyone else in the area. She looks ridiculous. Please stop tripping over yourself trying to justify this as a fashion choice relative to the area and even if it was there'd still be a huge issue with believability and representation.
lol. We exist, we're just not usually as vocal, since our opinion isn't on one extreme or the other.
I don't feel personally offended by Cindy's outfit, but I do think it's OTT, and I can understand why a woman would roll her eyes at it or feel exhausted by this type of representation.
Crankshaft
Member
Nah, she can't compete with the Dark Souls 2 debacle.
That's kind of depressing.
TheJollyCorner
Member
Yup.
What might have been considered cute/charming with little 2D sprites and/or early polygons can take a turn to potentially creepy and offensive when we get to hyper-detailed models/environments.
Maybe I'm off base here - and I'm sure I'll take a bat to the knee by some here if they feel I am - but you put Cindy in FFVII polygon form in a Midgar mechanic shop (assuming those exist, as Midgar does have cars) and do people have the same disgust and "preorder cancelled" mentality?
LordKasual
Banned
whew, forgot about that render. And yeah, Tifa being a head turner in the slums could (and does) work to her benefit in the actual story.
Edit:
On the same note, thats one of the reasons i guess I don't mind Cindy as much as the next poster around here. Viewing her strictly in the confines of the story, she's a mechanic damn near in the middle of the desert. Her eye candy outfit would easily work to her advantage, as it is literally shown to do by the protagonists of the game. The end of Duscae has Gladio and Prompto relentlessly hitting on her as she deflects them with almost unconscious ease, as would a barista at Hooters or something. They're talking about her in the car ride afterwards and seemingly only call Hammerhead, not so much because of Cid but because of Cindy.
That doesn't not make it objectification in my eyes...but it does allude to the fact both the developers and possibly Cindy herself are self-aware of how her appearance can manipulate others. It's working not only on the consumers of the game, but the characters inside the game itself. For a fantasy based on reality, that would actually make alot of sense -- Sex sells, and Cindy is making sells using her sexuality.
Now, the atrocious Cindymobile is taking it a bit too far, and it's obvious the developers are using her as a fanservice selling point. But yeah, there it is. Perhaps a bit too meta to be plasuable?
lightskintwin
Banned
Did you even read the post I responded too and the context my response was meant for?
ScherzoPrime
Member
Well it's a matter of being internally consistent to me; I can't say I'm for free speech and then try to silence people who disagree with me. Free speech implies dialogue; and just because I like hawt waifus doesn't mean my voice should be automatically privileged. It's also because I'm aware of all the other ways in which women are treated as second-class citizens and are denied the ability to get what they want out of life in general, let alone media, I'm not gonna go 'yeah fuck feminists' over something as petty as cheesecake. I may disagree with people who find Cidney harmful, but I'm not gonna flat out say they're wrong either. They deserve as much respect as I'd want myself.
Yep. Cindy is the reason I won't buy this game. I know I am in the minority, but I've got to stand up and vote with my wallet here.
TheJollyCorner
Member
The woman I posted also has an exposed bra... and damn... I didn't realize yellow was offensive to you
and no, she's not ALL yellow... although it would be humorous, because FFVI Cid was practically all yellow
*sigh*
Don't be an ass, Eden. I know this subject is important to you, but saying I'm trying to "justify this to myself" is eye-rollingly arrogant. Again - in nice bold letters: the overall aesthetic doesn't stand out to me as something that doesn't belong in that environment. She stands out - yes - by design, but it still works for me in a country-like place that Hammerhead appears to be.
I'm not doing any tripping and I'm sure as shit not trying to justify it to myself. Do I like the design? Here's an unapologetic yes. Is that enough to put me on your ignore list? To be honest, I hope not, because from time to time I appreciate your contributions.
I'm by no means telling other people how to feel about this design, so I'm not sure why you are getting so snappy. I've tried to make 'to me' clear multiple times.
Now would you like to continue this discussion in a way where you aren't insulting me - or should we continue in an ugly fashion (no pun intended)?
edit: Better yet, I'll just put my hands up and walk away now. Not worth tiptoeing the 'ban' line if you decide to go hard in the paint with this... and I'm too old to get in an internet sparring match over a JRPG character that displays some male fan service. If you want the last word and reply, I'll honor your opinion and read it, but I won't reply here.
LordKasual
Banned
Yes, i did. I wasn't only responding to you, though, i should have clarified. That was meant to be generally directed at everyone, since what i was referring to is very common in these threads.
Just look above this post.
kuroneko0509
Member
problem here is for pso2 is that its the case of sex actually sells. it's a gacha game with its outfits. do you actually spend crazy amounts of money if they released proper outfits? the answer for most is no. bottom line is sega likes money and this has been a very profitable model for them.
Good for you, I am thinking of buying 2 copies
lightskintwin
Banned
Then speak in general rather than conflate them with the specificity of my post response.
Because of Cidney? This is even stranger to me. Not buying a game you're otherwise interested in because of a minor character seems excessive, but hey, at least they're saving money. But spending more because of the minor character is just nuts.
seems to be a recurring theme in this family
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He also eats 2 steaks for every vegetarian out there. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Can we all just take a moment to have another good long look at this stupid asshole
I'd tell him to go back to his gritty reboot of Kingdom Hearts but then I remember what game we're talking about and realize he's already there
its one character. one character continues to cause the same topics, with the same back and fourths. I cannot speak for the whole game as I am avoiding spoilers but from what I have seen all of the other female designs as pretty "classy", no?
Like I didn't mind Quiet from MGSV but I got it (more so after playing the actual game) because she was damn near the only female in the game (the other AFAIK being
....which yeeeeeah) but here I don't understand the grief.
Its like all of this is about inclusivity, no? Then how come all of the other designs get overlooked and people zero in on one design? How come often the "fixes" for any design is to just cover it up more or make it more manly in a sense? Is that the inclusivity many are fighting for? Or is it just "I want more designs I personally like"? Thats fine and trust me understood but can we stop making it more than just that? All of this doesn't truly read like it is about everyone getting something for them...but rather people getting what they want. Period. A
Again thats fine. And perhaps I am reading it wrong. But each of the common and constant whipping boys on these boards lately, do not seem to be as altruistic as people make them out to be.
Like I didn't mind Quiet from MGSV but I got it (more so after playing the actual game) because she was damn near the only female in the game (the other AFAIK being
Paz
Its like all of this is about inclusivity, no? Then how come all of the other designs get overlooked and people zero in on one design? How come often the "fixes" for any design is to just cover it up more or make it more manly in a sense? Is that the inclusivity many are fighting for? Or is it just "I want more designs I personally like"? Thats fine and trust me understood but can we stop making it more than just that? All of this doesn't truly read like it is about everyone getting something for them...but rather people getting what they want. Period. A
Again thats fine. And perhaps I am reading it wrong. But each of the common and constant whipping boys on these boards lately, do not seem to be as altruistic as people make them out to be.
Ravus' design is actually one of my favorites, but to each their own. It feels more like FF to me than a lot of the others, and dat arm is badass.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
She's literally a mechanic, she's constantly working with oil and a whole lot of other shit that skin should be exposed to, especially breasts or a midriff. You absolutely are trying to justify this to yourself man. Just be honest, the devs are honest, they made her into a selling point for VR, told the mocap actress to lean forward and arch her back as much as possible, (note this doesn't apply to any other character BUT Cidney), and straight up made her into a car skin. Like, it's pretty goddamn obvious what the entire point is behind the design and it's not "well you see, it fits in the environment she's in." No it doesn't. The reason i'm irate about this is because i'm SO fed up with the lame excuses from the gaming community.
I have not personally attacked you in anyway shape or form.
LordKasual
Banned
Aye. I'm gonna wear the shit out of this when it drops in FFXIV at some point. Ravus looks dope.
I've been meaning to post something addressing those who attack the character of people disagreeing with them for a minute...in fact I seem to do that alot around here. It happens alot on NeoGaf, but the subjects it happen with seem to bring out this "holier than thou" complex that sets every thread on fire when they get to complaining. (Not everyone, and not overly frequent, but when it happens, it happens.)
Your post just reminded me to, sorry.