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[ethomaz]

Per Wikichips, the 5700 family is already on N7P.



https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

I did not know that maybe AMD changed the process in mid/late 2019.
In any case the improvements are more cost related (it is cheaper to produce using 7nm+ than 7nm) than performance/watt improvements.

 

[Ken Adams]

Well a few people pay attention.

LMAO Ok Mr Insider keep doing you.

 

[BlacknGold_Blood]

Not possible.

First RDNA doesn't run at 2Ghz... the top boost clock without overclock is 1905Mhz and it is only marketing because the card can't archive that at all.
Second that is a Desktop part that run with way higher clock than mobile parts used in consoles.
Third it is a single GPU chip instead an complex APU... APUs can't reach clocks of single chips.

The 7nm revision is not drastic... actually it is more of the same with a bit of improviment.
RDNA 2 is not a big change... it is basically a revision to complete the RDNA archiceture.

Anybody believing consoles will run GPU at 2Ghz is fooling themselves.

PS. Well there is people that believes nVidia can revise Tegra X1 to Nintendo create a Switch Pro yet when there is no tech available for that like I always said in the threads about the subject.

I’m no expert on this, but Dr. Keo on era has written lots on this. I don’t think we know nearly enough today about RDNA2 and the upgrade to 7NM to say 2.0 clock speed is impossible.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Anybody believing consoles will run GPU at 2Ghz is fooling themselves.

But there are claims of stable 5700xt overclocks at 2.2Ghz with just 15% more power consumption.

Also if it was running at more conservative clocks why the seemingly massive cooling in the dev kit photos?

 

[Racer!]

More than that since it's RDNA 2 and not GCN we're talking about. Also, it has a Ryzen CPU and not Jaguar. And a superfast SSD. And more and faster RAM. Don't be silly.

The architecture has nothing to do with power. Thats effiency. Surprised at how many people cant wrap their head around that simple fact. And yes, it has more and faster RAM, that doesnt make it a monster.

 

[Insane Metal]

The architecture has nothing to do with power. Thats effiency. Surprised at how many people cant wrap their head around that simple fact.

Yes? It's more efficient, meaning it gets more from those 9TF than if it were 9TF GCN. Simple as that.

 

[phil_t98]

If it can reach 14 it can reach 15, of it can reach 15 it can reach 16...

I reckon 17 to lol

 

[On Demand]

VFXVeteran is live

 

[ethomaz]

But there are claims of stable 5700xt overclocks at 2.2Ghz with just 15% more power consumption.

Also if it was running at more conservative clocks why the seemingly massive cooling in the dev kit photos?

Because AMD RDNA is hot... that is something they couldn't fix moving from GCN to RDNA.
And APU makes the things even hotter.

Both MS and Sony are trying to push what they can in a mobile APU form factor and that is really hard to cool.

 

[Kazekage1981]

this rtx talk is really triggering me ...
the 12tf of the xsx has NOTHING to do with the Raytracing ... the architecture has extra cores, for exactly that task. the RTX 2080TI for example has 78 teraflops of rtx ops. U can gain massive gains by removing alot of flexibility that a chip can do. These RTX cores cannot do any graphics calculations in any meaningfull way. but they can trace rays much much better then a normal GPU. The same goes for the XSX chip. 12TF of Raytracing gets u nowhere. Its just nothing im comparison to whats needed. Going on and be like "yeah PS5 will have an extra chip that does RTX for the Console but the XSX has to do it with the 12TF GPU" is just ... misinformed bs. Inform urself about "Gigy Rays" "RTX Core" "RTX Ops" and whatever bullshit words NVidia came up with to sell the new features. Its an ASIC that can do not really anything but the task that is needed to calculate rays and if and what they hit and bounce off from.

While it COULD be true that the PS5 will have a much faster ASIC when it comes to RayTracing, we dont have enough information how it all goes together and works out. Since the ONLY architecture that really works right now is the turing architecture from NVidia. So there is something to learn from. But its litteraly a sample size of 1 ... maybe some developer can enlighten us with more information but from a pure spec list its hard to get more out of it.

I am not a developer, and I have some vague understanding of microarchitecture, but AMD dont have to follow what nvidia does for their ray tracing solution. I am sure AMD worked closely with Sony, Microsoft, and sony and Microsoft themselves have engineers, developers who listened to other developers to provide some sort of hybrid software/hardware solution for raytracing. From what I have heard, raytracing is more CPU intensive, so it could be that Zen has been optimized for those ray tracing calculations. You are not using the CPU for Microsoft word, photoshop, and general purpose tasks, so I am sure they are putting it to good use.

If it were not for ray tracing, both Microsoft and Sony could have easily passed the threshold of 4k native 60ps-120ps, but whats astonishing is that they are saying you can achieve that WITH ray tracing. Whether that is true remains to be seen.

 

[Spreewaldgurke]

On what TV do developers optimize their game? Is it the Sony referenz monitor or a „normal“ LCD or OLED? Like for accurate colours and experience

 

[Racer!]

Yes? It's more efficient, meaning it gets more from those 9TF than if it were 9TF GCN. Simple as that.

Yes, but not by that much and at a hardware level it would be really weak. With 5 nm coming in 2021 and 3 nm in 2022, that would be just sad really. The density on 5 nm compared to 7, is something like 1.8x running 20% faster.

 

[pawel86ck]

Screw everyone console warring. Seriously, SCREW YOU IF YOU CONSOLE WAR.

These consoles are monsters and even if the PS5 is 9TF it is still a hell of a lot more powerful than the PS4 or PS4 Pro and will be able to make insane stuff.

Also the XSX at 12TF RDNA fucking 2.0 is insane. I bet it won't be cheap but screw it, that thing is a monster. We should be thankful for getting actual good hardware this time. Can't even imagine what the games will look like on these machines. Praised be AMD

Even if PS5 will be 9TF I think sony developers would build the best looking games because of their talent. For example xbox x is clearly much faster compared to PS4P (it can render 2x more pixels in the same game) and yet I was still more impressed with lets say Uncharted 4 on PS4P.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Who the F cares about streaming. They all suck.

Just because you prefer a platform for your NATIVE gaming like all of us on an enthusiast site, doesn't mean you need to fanwar over the worst way to play games in current year.

That might have been the case at some point, but I've played a fair bit on many streaming platforms, and in the case of a game like DOOM on GeForce Now you are getting a very competitive experience with latency that looks better than on base consoles. PSNow added hardware acceleration to PSNow and it's been running much better(PC) recently. xCloud is only on phones currently, but it's surprisingly responsive for coming over WiFi on a phone. They're only getting better, too.

Horizon PS4:


Horizon PSNow[PC, my vid]:

DOOM

GeForce Now:
1080p/60fps/Ultra Settings:


720p/120fps/Ultra settings:


Android Phone, 1080p/60fps/Ultra settings:

 

[ethomaz]

Reading more the link in WikiChip: https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

I think when they say N7P means Node 7 Process... and not Node 7 Plus.
Navi 10 is 7nm.

Zen 3 is 7nm+ that probably will be N7PP on WikiChip.

Anyway the biggest gain from 7nm to 7nm+ is the reduction in cost production.

Edit - Fixed 5 with 7.

 

[Garjon]

He did repeatedly use the expression "Microsoft is killing it".

I'm talking about Shinobi; the letters he italicised were SSK.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That might have been the case at some point, but I've played a fair bit on many streaming platforms, and in the case of a game like DOOM on GeForce Now you are getting a very competitive experience with latency that looks better than on base consoles. PSNow added hardware acceleration to PSNow and it's been running much better(PC) recently. xCloud is only on phones currently, but it's surprisingly responsive for coming over WiFi on a phone. They're only getting better, too.

DOOM

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I reckon 17 to lol

Someone said ray tracing flops for 2080ti were like 75Tflops, if we assume that ray tracing is faster in ps5 then it could be even higher, but specialized ops not general purpose.

Because AMD RDNA is hot... that is something they couldn't fix moving from GCN to RDNA.
And APU makes the things even hotter.

Both MS and Sony are trying to push what they can in a mobile APU form factor and that is really hard to cool.

so you're saying even at lower conservative clocks that it runs inordinately hot requiring massive cooling? The series X has a 12 Tflop large rdna 2 chip and it doesn't seem to have excessive cooling.

Why would the ps5 assuming a smaller chip require what seems like half the console being tons of vents for cooling?

 

[Falc67]

I remember people were laughing at him when VFXVeteran suggested sony wants to port their games to PC and today I'm reading interesting news:

https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/horizon-zero-dawn-for-pc-appears-on-amazon/

So VFXVeteran obviously know something although I can see why sony fans hate him and will rather listen to Tommy Fake Fisher.

But what VFX has said wouldn’t make Sony fans hate him. He’s finally agreeing that there’s a high spec PS5 model that equals the XSX.

People just find it absurd that Sony would release a 9.2 tf console (to target what resolution and price?) and a 12tf console (what targets?) at the same time or even three years later. All at $800.

Bearing in mind current gen Pro version was over 2x more powerful than the PS4 (2.28). 9.2tf would need a 21tf to match that. Not a 12tf XSX equaliser in 3 years

 

[Farrell55]

Reading more the link in WikiChip: https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

I think when they say N7P means Node 7 Process... and not Node 5 Plus.
Navi 10 is 7nm.

Zen 3 is 7nm+ that probably will be N7PP on WikiChip.

Anyway the biggest gain from 7nm to 7nm+ is the reduction in cost production.

What do you mean by Node5? 5nm?

 

[ethomaz]

so you're saying even at lower conservative clocks that it runs inordinately hot requiring massive cooling? The series X has a 12 Tflop large rdna 2 chip and it doesn't seem to have excessive cooling.

Why would the ps5 assuming a smaller chip require what seems like half the console being tons of vents for cooling?

?

Xbox Series X is a massiva PC tower format due cooling lol

What do you mean by Node5? 5nm?

Sorry typo... Node 7 Plus.

 

[Farrell55]

Reading more the link in WikiChip: https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

I think when they say N7P means Node 7 Process... and not Node 5 Plus.
Navi 10 is 7nm.

Zen 3 is 7nm+ that probably will be N7PP on WikiChip.

Anyway the biggest gain from 7nm to 7nm+ is the reduction in cost production.

"One important key feature to point out is the underlying process technology which is TSMC’s 2nd-generation 7-nanometer node (N7P) which not only provides significant density improvement over AMD’s last node"

 

[Racer!]

What do you mean by Node5? 5nm?

He ment Node 7 Plus.

 

[Garjon]

I’m no expert on this, but Dr. Keo on era has written lots on this. I don’t think we know nearly enough today about RDNA2 and the upgrade to 7NM to say 2.0 clock speed is impossible.

We know enough to say that it is highly unlikely, certainly would not have even been up for discussion when Sony were in the planning stage.

 

[ethomaz]

"One important key feature to point out is the underlying process technology which is TSMC’s 2nd-generation 7-nanometer node (N7P) which not only provides significant density improvement over AMD’s last node"

Well.

There is two nodes from TSMC’s 2nd-generation 7-nanometer node.

N7P = DUV-based like their N7 process
N7+ = EUV-based like their N7 process

Edit - Better understanding.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yes, but not by that much and at a hardware level it would be really weak. With 5 nm coming in 2021 and 3 nm in 2022, that would be just sad really. The density on 5 nm compared to 7, is something like 1.8x running 20% faster.

are costs per transistor still falling at the same rate? I heard prior to euv they stopped falling at prior rates.

But what VFX has said wouldn’t make Sony fans hate him. He’s finally agreeing that there’s a high spec PS5 model that equals the XSX.

People just find it absurd that Sony would release a 9.2 tf console (to target what resolution and price?) and a 12tf console (what targets?) at the same time or even three years later. All at $800.

Bearing in mind current gen Pro version was over 2x more powerful than the PS4 (2.28). 9.2tf would need a 21tf to match that. Not a 12tf XSX equaliser in 3 years

But maybe one is 7TF and the other 14TF...

edit:

Xbox Series X is a massiva PC tower format due cooling lol

Looks like a compact minitower with a few vents on top, not a full tower.

 

[xool]

On what TV do developers optimize their game? Is it the Sony referenz monitor or a „normal“ LCD or OLED? Like for accurate colours and experience

almost certainly sRGB - the same standard reproduction that's built into every monitor

Set your monitor to sRGB and don't fiddle with the settings and you'll never have to fiddle with the "change your brightness until the left side isn't visible" setting ever again - it'll be spot on at the default.

 

[Farrell55]

Well.

TSMC’s 2nd-generation 7-nanometer node (N7P) = DUV-based like their N7 process
TSMC's 3rd-generation 7-nanometer node (N7+) = EUV-based like their N7 process

The point is, wikichip say's it is second generation 7nm and Not first gen

 

[Racer!]

are costs per transistor still falling at the same rate? I heard prior to euv they stopped falling at prior rates.

When they get the pellicle situation sorted, it should be cheaper as the number of steps falls dramatically with euv.

 

[Kobi]

I leave you guys alone for an afternoon and it's a riot in here.

 

[ethomaz]

Looks like a compact minitower with a few vents on top, not a full tower.

It is a PC tower format due cooling issues.

 

[Tommy Fisher]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

 

[Amaranty]

On what TV do developers optimize their game? Is it the Sony referenz monitor or a „normal“ LCD or OLED? Like for accurate colours and experience

You can calibrate different monitors and TVs with marginal differences to match industry standard in regards to colour accuracy. But I think most use monitors due to the smaller size and lower input lag.

EDIT: Of course designers who are responsible for colours in game probably use professional monitors for the best accuracy.

 

[ethomaz]

The point is, wikichip say's it is second generation 7nm and Not first gen

I rewrite my post to be accurate.

Both are 2nd generation but there is two nodes:

N7P = DUV-based like their N7 process
N7+ = EUV-based like their N7 process

Zen3 and RDNA2 will use N7+ (EUV-based).
RDNA uses N7P (DUV-based).

TSMC 1st-generation 7nm was only used in SRAM production.

 

[xool]

Reading more the link in WikiChip: https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

I think when they say N7P means Node 7 Process... and not Node 7 Plus.
Navi 10 is 7nm.

Zen 3 is 7nm+ that probably will be N7PP on WikiChip.

Anyway the biggest gain from 7nm to 7nm+ is the reduction in cost production.

Edit - Fixed 5 with 7.

N7P is 7 nm performance

here https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2567/tsmc-talks-7nm-5nm-yield-and-next-gen-5g-and-hpc-packaging/

(the other option is "mobile" which offers higher density but lower clocks) [edit - getting confused myself with "7nm High performance" and "7nm low power" see here https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2408...ells-2nd-gen-7nm-and-the-snapdragon-855-dtco/ ]

 

[Insane Metal]

Yes, but not by that much and at a hardware level it would be really weak. With 5 nm coming in 2021 and 3 nm in 2022, that would be just sad really. The density on 5 nm compared to 7, is something like 1.8x running 20% faster.

Ok

 

[Farrell55]

I rewrite my post to be accurate.

Both are 2nd generation but there is two nodes:

N7P = DUV-based like their N7 process
N7+ = EUV-based like their N7 process

Zen3 and RDNA2 will use N7+ (EUV-based).
RDNA uses N7P (DUV-based).
[/QUOTE
Yap sorry

 

[saintjules]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Captain Hero]

VFXVeteran not everyone here hate insiders and I don't hate you ( yes you never replied to me lol ) maybe I don't agree with you on some topics but I really appreciate the info you share wither its true or wrong you are not infallible and so we are ..

OsirisBlack
BGs
HeisenbergFX4

I can not talk for all of us but you can hear it from me .. you are great and its a pleasure to have you here in GAF , we are not like any other gaming site we respect all people here at the end of the day we remain friends and this is just a fun discussion ..

wish you the best

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

When they get the pellicle situation sorted, it should be cheaper as the number of steps falls dramatically with euv.

I wonder if that will be sorted out during 2020, otherwise console costs could be affected if they push the envelope too much.

The second implication ceased around 2014/2015 when the cost per transistor flattened out as density kept increasing to actually increase starting in 2016/2017. Now as we go to 7nm size for etching the cost per transistor is higher than it was (is) for a 10nm etching. -https://cmte.ieee.org/futuredirections/2019/03/10/beyond-moores-law/

It is a PC tower format due cooling issues.

for a massive chip, yet cooling doesn't seem as excessive as the ps5 dev kit.

 

[ethomaz]

N7P is 7 nm performance (the other option is "mobile" which offers higher density but lower clocks)

here https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2567/tsmc-talks-7nm-5nm-yield-and-next-gen-5g-and-hpc-packaging/

Thanks.

I understood now.
N7P is DUV yet.
N7+ is EUV.

 

[BlacknGold_Blood]

We know enough to say that it is highly unlikely, certainly would not have even been up for discussion when Sony were in the planning stage.

Oh really? How could anyone possibly know how hot an N7P or 7n+ node would be at 2.0 ghz?

 

[Farrell55]

I rewrite my post to be accurate.

Both are 2nd generation but there is two nodes:

N7P = DUV-based like their N7 process
N7+ = EUV-based like their N7 process

Zen3 and RDNA2 will use N7+ (EUV-based).
RDNA uses N7P (DUV-based).

TSMC 1st-generation 7nm was only used in SRAM production.

Sorry i didnt See it, Thats allright

 

[RookX22]

Why cant someone leak a couple pics of that new DS5. I want to see that thing.

 

[Zoro7]

Every time I see new replies here I get excited that something substantial would have leaked. Yet every time its the same knobs arguing about things they have no idea or control about.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

Hmm, weren't they already working with devkit 3 or 4? Can remember someone mentioning this before

 

[pasterpl]

Why would the ps5 assuming a smaller chip require what seems like half the console being tons of vents for cooling?

magic

 

[M.Night Shyamalan]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

How powerful is the weakest one Tommy?

 

[xool]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

Like this guy. telling it straight.

Is PS5 Feb announce cancelled ??

 

[IkarugaDE]

There absolutely is no any plans for PS5 Pro currently. 3 different PS5 D-Kits with the last one on the way.

Which doesn't mean VFXVeteran is wrong, it also could mean that Info was right some time ago.