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[mckmas8808]

Weren't games loading in 4-5 seconds on the XSX? Is it reasonable to think those same games would load in 2.5 or so seconds?

 

[ethomaz]

You mean this guy?



This is not a developer, but he even said they took what he said out of context. He believes it won't have a drastically big impact on open world games, but instead other type of games.

The specs alone in comparison between both consoles are not huge. If Sony announces more RNDA 2 features such as VRS, people are still going to say the Xbox Series S is way more powerful.

But somehow, having a much faster SSD will do nothing for the console but 1-2 seconds of faster load times.

People tried to downplay RDNA 2 on PS5
Are now downplaying the frequency on the PS5 by saying it's only 9.2TF most of the time.

People are trying their best to make the PS5 look as bad as possible.

The age of fake news.
You can how much stories about something being bad to try to harm its reputation.

 

[ethomaz]

Cerny did a pretty good job of that himself..

also the specs speak for themselves ..

The opposite Cerny made the PS5 looks like a really great machine.
And specs are really good covering all bottlenecks.

But Xbox fans believes it is bad lol

 

[DaGwaphics]

It is not me saying this, man, it is AMD

In a 15 or 25w form factor, sure. In a console you can always just utilize a PSU/Cooler large enough to handle power spikes. In a laptop you have that situation where making base clocks higher by default will lower battery life, so the option of only increasing those during gaming is a smart advancement. Not a real must-have in a gaming-centric device.

 

[ethomaz]

What's the reason then to make the clock speeds variable? Purely for power consumption reasons?

Watch the Road of PS5 he explain very well there.

 

[DrDamn]

As to if the 2.23 GHz clock was done in reaction? I don't know. I mean if you look simply at the reactions to 9.2 TF that were here on this forum alone (let alone everywhere else), MOST people didn't like the sound of that idea. So if they upclock was done in reaction, even if part of it was in knowing what MS had with XSX, at least another part of the reaction could've been from people at Sony seeing the reaction from fans who just would not accept a hypothetical 9.2 TF PS5. Or, maybe they surmised people would've reacted that way well before any leaks or data mining results came out.

Personally I think Sony were in a place where to get the best backwards compatibility then 36CUs was beneficial. This perhaps was also a carry over from earlier designs for a planned release in 2019. So they consider that and thought how far can we push it? What can we put around it to get the most out of it? To that end it sounds like they did a really good job.

In terms of end result is it as beastly as the XSX? No. Will it perform somewhere close to that whilst still helping meeting compatibility goals? Yes. Will it also offer something different that can be exploited by devs (at the very least - first party ones)? Yes.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You can't free up the GPU if the storage can't free enough assets in time, that's the point. The need to have most of the things in place (with less detail, but still) keeps the GPU occupied even for things you can't see. This also free the RAM because you don't need to keep some things there if the SSD is fast enough to place it, while for an HDD is a much more rare occurrence.
Cerny idea is to have an SSD fast enough to completely take away stuff you don't see so you can load more in your view. He explain this in the conference.

Except.. people are using HZD as an example... of a game that used this technique in 2017 on 5400 RPM HD's. How in the world are you all ignoring this, which is my point? lol

That technique can free up GPU resources on a 5400 RPM drive because in most games you turn your head and aren't loading new textures, just different geometry and effects and whatnot.

Yes, with a fast SSD you can load entirely different textures; point is that is separate from this technique that is freeing up GPU resources. The SSD doesn't really have anything directly to do with that technique.. and it's insane to me that people who keep spamming HZD videos at me aren't getting that.

The bottleneck either way is likely to be the amount of detail that is feasible for developers /artists to even create, fit on disk, etc. if you guys think every time you turn your head in a massive open world game they are going to be able to paint new textures everywhere, in every seen, I don't know what to tell you.. that's insane. It does let you have more variety in one area of a game (in one area, have a variety of textures.. but they aren't super unique and are used / repeated elsewhere), but there are still going to be limitations. We have ~100GB games today already without the ability to do that, and a lot of those games are barely even 4k ready, let alone full of a ton of more detail.

It's awesome stuff and going to provide more detailed games, free up devs from having to worry about designing around loading, etc. No one is denying that; but there are going to be bottlenecks... like disk size, at that point.

 

[Darius87]

Ah, the false narrative strikes again!

i don't really see what past 2 generations ms innovate at? apart upgrading and adding given tech at the time.
sony does that and also inovates with ps3 cell, blu-ray, with ps4 8 ace engines, vr, with ps5 super fast ssd, audio.

 

[CJY]

If MS should be competing with them (they are), then by relation Sony should as well. The idea a company like MS or Sony can't simultaneously offer competitive products and services in somewhat related markets is misguided, given their relative sizes and areas of R&D reach. And in regards to Sony, we're already seeing a strategic shift from them to do so. I wouldn't say MS doesn't care about their console side to the point where it's even seemingly insignificant compared to the PC side, because otherwise they would not have invested into the gaming studios and XSX hardware as much as they have. The proof is seemingly in the pudding.

I don't even know where you're getting the idea it's a desperate strategy, because again, Sony's going to be doing these same things and already have in some ways. They simply don't have the means to go as hard into it as MS, Amazon, Google, Apple etc. because they're a smaller company, and their cloud infrastructure isn't as good as theirs. If it were, however, you'd be seeing a lot of that type of stuff more openly from them and baby steps like Horizon to PC and (possibly) God of War 4 to PC are pretty indicative of that.

Perhaps from a macro point of view, those arguments ring true, but I am mainly speaking from my perspective as an individual and how it looks like to me in making my decision to spend my money. It's never going to be a case of not getting a PS5, and buying an XSX instead. It was also going to be whether I purchase an XSX in addition to my PS5, and for what I'm told it's 18% more Flops and games that I'll be able to play even on my existing Mac Pro... I don't see the value proposition in that.

Perhaps Sony should be competing with them, but they have far more to lose from making their existing userbase unhappy so they are playing it cautiously. I personally don't agree that Sony need to play that game at all, because they are undisputed leaders in home consoles, but it's only smart for them to hedge their bets, like they did with their purchase of Gaikai and OnLive's patents.

The reason that you suggest Sony should be competing in the PC space - because MS are - is ludicrous though. I don't think you should be painting both Sony and MS with the same brush. MS have attempted to make inroads into the PC space for decades, trying and failing many times.

Again, I'm speaking as a fan, an individual, and a consumer and Hermen Hulst has said they are 100% committed to console gamers and H:ZD coming out on PC doesn't necessarily mean all 1st party games are coming to PC. That's enough for me.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Except.. people are using HZD as an example... of a game that used this technique in 2017 on 5400 RPM HD's. How in the world are you all ignoring this, which is my point? lol

That technique can free up GPU resources on a 5400 RPM drive because in most games you turn your head and aren't loading new textures, just different geometry and effects and whatnot.

Yes, with a fast SSD you can load entirely different textures; point is that is separate from this technique that is freeing up GPU resources. The SSD doesn't really have anything directly to do with that technique.. and it's insane to me that people who keep spamming HZD videos at me aren't getting that.

The bottleneck either way is likely to be the amount of detail that is feasible for developers /artists to even create, fit on disk, etc. if you guys think every time you turn your head in a massive open world game they are going to be able to paint new textures everywhere. It does let you have more variety in one area of a game, but there are still going to be limitations. We have ~100GB games today already without the ability to do that, and a lot of those games are barely even 4k ready, let alone full of a ton of more detail.

Do you release HZD was a first party becomed famous for doing that at that level, as the others couldn't? HZD will be a baby trick for next gen, thanks to the SSDs, that's the point.
Also, I'm not saying you can't do it with an HDD, you just need a storage, what I thought I shouldn't explain is that if you have a 100x faster storage you can do it ten times faster even if the game if 10x as demanding. This changes a little bit how much you can upload and unload, so how much the GPU and the RAM need to consider any given time. So yeah, my point is not that is "directly related" and it's not important, my point is that GPU and RAM should perform much better with this.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Do you release HZD was a first party becomed famous for doing that at that level, as the others couldn't?
Also, I'm not saying you can't do it with an HDD, you just need a storage, what I thought I shouldn't explain is that if you have a 100x faster storage you can do it ten times faster even if the game if 10x as demanding. This changes a little bit how much you can upload and unload, so how much the GPU and the RAM need to consider any given time.

LOL... "You can't free up the GPU if the storage can't free enough assets in time, that's the point " direct quote from you.

And yes, it's an awesome technique.. pulled off on a 5400 RPM drive... because the technique is about limiting what is being rendered off screen... and last gen games do not load textures when you turn your head. It really is a SEPARATE CONCEPT from the SSD speeds.

You could also NOT USE this technique and still load textures when you turn your head with an SSD... do you get it now? They are not directly related to each other.

 

[devilNprada]

What a load of baloney. Of course the graphical prowess of a console is important. I know, it's become less important in the last week or so.. you know, since a certain event, but claiming a company is "out of touch" because they have a faster console and aren't afraid to tell it? That's damage control on a new level.

What world are you living in? Does Nintendo exist in your world?

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

LOL... "You can't free up the GPU if the storage can't free enough assets in time, that's the point " direct quote from you.

And yes, it's an awesome technique.. pulled off on a 5400 RPM drive... because the technique is about limiting what is being rendered off screen... and last gen games do not load textures when you turn your head. It really is a SEPARATE CONCEPT from the SSD speeds.

You could also NOT USE this technique and still load textures when you turn your head with an SSD... do you get it now? They are not directly related to each other.

Yes, instead of quoting my words try to understand the whole concept that I explained precisely in the rest of the post. I don't deny what HZD does, I'm not saying you can't do it with an HDD, I'm saying that the gains from an SSD in this are fucking big, and PS5 SSD will have the most gains.
Last gen games do not load stuff when you turn your head because they mostly fucking can't, only HZD does that, is exactly what I'm saying.
You're arguing with the lead architech basically: his idea is to let the SSD load and unload as you turn. Now, HOW MUCH this can be done it's yet to be seen, but it could be done MUCH MORE than before, because you have a 100x increase in speed.
I think you are confusing me with another person, because I responded to you while you were arguing with another dude that posted that vid, hence I said "you can't free up the GPU if you don't have storage speed", in general it's true, if you don't have enough storage speed you need to keep what you need only in RAM. HZD doesn't? Good, it seems that PS4 HDD has enough speed. Clear?
I'm just explaining why SSDs will make a difference and why a faster SSD than SeX could make a difference in performance, imho.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It is impressive looking and a major win immediately for a large number of gamers that are into Minecrafter like enhancing Fornite or CoD with 3D audio could be big for Playstation.

I’m not sure, but I’m under the impression it was 1080p30 or 60 they showed on XsX, and so assuming 10 rays per pixel for Full RT(including reflections and AA) at 60fps that gives:

1920x1080x60x10 = 1.244GigaRays/s

Or

0.622 GigaRays/s for 30 fps

By RTX current standards that wouldn’t really cut it for a whole generation of RT games IMHO unless targetting 1080p30 with a mid-gen refresh for 4k30.,

I’m still hoping for 5GigaRays/s from each of the consoles, or 2-3 GR/s minimum, but controlled by more flexible RT compute to get a higher effective number through efficiency/intelligence to exceed the 8-ish GigaRays/s touted by some RTX cards ... I know preparing for disappointment.

Man, I always enjoy your comments. Thanks a lot for the details.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Xbox One didn't have the upper hand that XSX has at the moment... It's a different situation.

Also lol at everyone commenting negatively at Dynamic Voltage Games, but don't have any problem with quoting Naughty Dog tweets that keep saying how fantastic the PS5 is supposed to be... The irony.

Because:

Dynamic Voltage Games:




Naughty Dog:

 

[IntentionalPun]

You're arguing with the lead architech basically: his idea is to let the SSD load and unload as you turn.

I'm not arguing with anyone; in fact I brought up this concept of "loading textures when you turn your head" before you guys started spamming "making of HZD" videos.

And HZD is not the only game that does things about not rendering invisible objects; jesus fucking christ lol

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

I'm not arguing with anyone; in fact I brought up this concept of "loading textures when you turn your head" before you guys started spamming "making of HZD" videos.

And HZD is not the only game that does things about not rendering invisible objects; jesus fucking christ lol

"You guys" I never spammed HZD videos.
Put it as you want.
How SSDs can improve GPU and RAM? By reducing the useless rendering quantity and the ammount of long term data in RAM. They can do it much, much better than HDDs.
That's the only thing I'm saying, I was responding to your first post unrelated to HZD
"Wait.. people are actually claiming throwing far more data/detail at a GPU somehow saves the GPU power? lol"
It's not about throwing more data, it's about moving it from the useless side and putting more data on the uselfull side, yet you still offload some data, you don't just add. You can do it much faster with SDDs.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Is Switch coming with a revision/new model for 2021? I guess he'll catgh up in his own form.

I would love to have a Nintendo that can run next gen games in 720p-1080p handheld. Or if Sony could go bold and make a successor to its handheld market. I would prefer a true Nintendo console though, not a handheld one.

 

[Voidout]

@Mod of War would you please check recent claims of insider info that guy made? Regards.

yerrr I agree

 

[DrDamn]

Only if there is no 100% (or closes to 100%) workload and power target consumption.
In a console environment that's something you aim to utilize and get done later into the generation.
It's smart in general, but not I'm not sure if I like it in a console as much as a regular Laptop.

What it will also allow for is if you are hitting both those limits then you have options in how you address it. Optimise the GPU load or optimise the CPU load. Flexibility.

ms = brute force
sony = innovation

Too reductive to say at this point - there is a lot of innovation in design for both, just in different ways. I think we just know a bit more about the innovation in PS5 so far.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Xbox One didn't have the upper hand that XSX has at the moment... It's a different situation.

Also lol at everyone commenting negatively at Dynamic Voltage Games, but don't have any problem with quoting Naughty Dog tweets that keep saying how fantastic the PS5 is supposed to be... The irony.

You don't see ND downplaying Xbox.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

What world are you living in? Does Nintendo exist in your world?

That guy comes out with the strangest things, posts are a mix of insecurity and mild rage

 

[Darius87]

@Mod of War would you please check recent claims of insider info that guy made? Regards.

forget it, i asked him to do something about these fake insiders he just made excuse it's bad time corona bla bla bla... even he said he will do something about it, he's same as these fake insiders.

 

[devilNprada]

I would love to have a Nintendo that can run next gen games in 720p-1080p handheld. Or if Sony could go bold and make a successor to its handheld market. I would prefer a true Nintendo console though, not a handheld one.

Nintendo games are better on the handheld though..... I hope they stick with it as the switch is one my favorite gaming devices ever made.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Did Naughty Dog devs acted like this dev? Did they talked against XSX? They didn't, Xbox fan. Stop defending the OBVIOUS crap spewed from Dynamic Voltage devs mouth.

That delusional dev thinks like this:

 

[Aceofspades]

Yeah, I think MS is stupid enough to let Sony have a headstart to sell millions more thsn Xbox just to prove a point for few entitled nerds on the internet.

Spoiler:
MS is not Stupid, but they will be outsold by millions no matter what

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

You don't see ND downplaying Xbox.

Because ND don't need to downplay shit, they are the GOAT of first parties with TLOU selling more than 20+ millions and Uncharted 4 close to that. TLOU 2 will probably be the most selled exclusive of this gen.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The guy is an indie dev. Give him a break.

Not every studio out there gets bought out by a corporation and has 100s of people working on games for 5 years.

 

[Aceofspades]

It is impressive looking and a major win immediately for a large number of gamers that are into Minecrafter like enhancing Fornite or CoD with 3D audio could be big for Playstation.

I’m not sure, but I’m under the impression it was 1080p30 or 60 they showed on XsX, and so assuming 10 rays per pixel for Full RT(including reflections and AA) at 60fps that gives:

1920x1080x60x10 = 1.244GigaRays/s

Or

0.622 GigaRays/s for 30 fps

By RTX current standards that wouldn’t really cut it for a whole generation of RT games IMHO unless targetting 1080p30 with a mid-gen refresh for 4k30.,

I’m still hoping for 5GigaRays/s from each of the consoles, or 2-3 GR/s minimum, but controlled by more flexible RT compute to get a higher effective number through efficiency/intelligence to exceed the 8-ish GigaRays/s touted by some RTX cards ... I know preparing for disappointment.

Is there a standard way to measure RT performance in GPUs? I know it varies between Nvidia and AMD, but I would like to know the measurement and variables affecting RT performance.

Thanks in advance

 

[Fake]

I would love to have a Nintendo that can run next gen games in 720p-1080p handheld. Or if Sony could go bold and make a successor to its handheld market. I would prefer a true Nintendo console though, not a handheld one.

I'll happy if Switch PRO runs their first party games at native 1080p. Third party I'll leave for PS5 and some Playstation exclusives. I guess works on the same way for seX future users.

 

[Physiognomonics]

It is impressive looking and a major win immediately for a large number of gamers that are into Minecrafter like enhancing Fornite or CoD with 3D audio could be big for Playstation.

I’m not sure, but I’m under the impression it was 1080p30 or 60 they showed on XsX, and so assuming 10 rays per pixel for Full RT(including reflections and AA) at 60fps that gives:

1920x1080x60x10 = 1.244GigaRays/s

Or

0.622 GigaRays/s for 30 fps

By RTX current standards that wouldn’t really cut it for a whole generation of RT games IMHO unless targetting 1080p30 with a mid-gen refresh for 4k30.,

I’m still hoping for 5GigaRays/s from each of the consoles, or 2-3 GR/s minimum, but controlled by more flexible RT compute to get a higher effective number through efficiency/intelligence to exceed the 8-ish GigaRays/s touted by some RTX cards ... I know preparing for disappointment.

Hey, easy. The GigaRay/s war has not started yet!

 

[Neo Blaster]

Because ND don't need to downplay shit, they are the GOAT of first parties with TLOU selling more than 20+ millions and Uncharted 4 close to that. TLOU 2 will probably be the most selled exclusive of this gen.

Funny how Xbox fanboys want to compare ND, one of the top studios nowadays, with a John Doe dev.

 

[Metroiddarks]

The guy is an indie dev. Give him a break.

Not every studio out there gets bought out by a corporation and has 100s of people working on games for 5 years.

And for that reason I will not say in twitter Sony games are graphically disappointed or looks bad compare with
my games, if someone want to be respect it, the same person need to respect and know when other can do thing you not.

 

[IntentionalPun]

"You guys" I never spammed HZD videos.

No you just quoted my response to a video about HZD for some reason acting like you were explaining something to me.

HZD runs on a system incapable of loading and unloading textures when you turn your head; so.. get this.. it is unrelated to the concept of loading and unloading textures when you turn your head. Something I was talking about as being possible next gen before anyone started talking about the unrelated (but similar in concept) HZD technique.

Either way it DOES NOT free up GPU resources to constantly load and unload textures. Killing geometry and effects for out of view objects does; my point being that technique is separate from the ability to load and unload textures.

You can load more data for the specific scene/view... because you can quickly load data for when the scene/view changes.. that is not a GPU POWER FREEING TECHNIQUE like this thread was babbling about. What HZD does is a GPU Power freeing technique... done on a 5400 RPM drive.. because that technique has nothing to do with drive speed.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Was created as a Halo killer, failed in that but still a decent game with gorgeous graphics, even use a very basic technology for make reflections using rays.

Just... wow! Never seen this video before, I thought it was impressive, but didn't pay too much attention to details.

Imagine what they can do in PS5.

 

[Tripolygon]

This is so fucking dumb, like WTF is wrong with some people?

 

[devilNprada]

I'll happy if Switch PRO runs their first party games at native 1080p. Third party I'll leave for PS5 and some Playstation exclusives.

You'd be surprised.. Mobile/switch is the preferred platform for a lot of third party games for what is becoming a majority of people.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

No you just quoted my response to a video about HZD for some reason acting like you were explaining something to me.

HZD runs on a system incapable of loading and unloading textures when you turn your head; so.. get this.. it is unrelated to the concept of loading and unloading textures when you turn your head. Something I was talking about as being possible next gen before anyone started talking about the unrelated (but similar in concept) HZD technique.

Either way it DOES NOT free up GPU resources to constantly load and unload textures. Killing geometry and effects for out of view objects does; my point being that technique is separate from the ability to load and unload textures.

You can load more data for the specific scene/view... because you can quickly load data for when the scene/view changes.. that is not a GPU POWER FREEING TECHNIQUE like this thread was babbling about. What HZD does is a GPU Power freeing technique... done on a 5400 RPM drive.. because that technique has nothing to do with drive speed.

I quoted that, yes, and stated a general point:
If the storage isn't fast enough, you can't free up the GPU. I wasn't talking about the PS4 HDD, it was a main point to start with. It was pretty clear to me.
Also, explaining something to someone isn't a crime.
I wasn't talking about texture, I was talking about anything needed to be loaded off an on.
If a guy say "do you think that loading more shit free up the GPU" without quoting anyone, I'm just going to say that SSDs do not only load shit up but also the contrary.
I never stated it was directly connected to HZD, for instance HZD is a good example of how this technique can be beneficial. It is directly connected? Nope. But it is useless to pretend that devs won't use it with also SSDs advantages now that both consoles have it. They will.
HZD is used not to say "it's correlated" but to say "here's the concept, it has already been done with HDDs, immagine with SSDs. "
That's it.

 

[Neo Blaster]

This is so fucking dumb, like WTF is wrong with some people?

To think we was complaining his games sold s*** on Xbox...

 

[SlimySnake]

this is so stupid. the ram is only 16 gb. maybe 14 gb for games. with a 5.5 gbps ssd, you can fill that in under 3 seconds. and you dont need to fill it all up to put the player in a level. 5.5 GB should be enough to load whats in front you.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Perhaps from a macro point of view, those arguments ring true, but I am mainly speaking from my perspective as an individual and how it looks like to me in making my decision to spend my money. It's never going to be a case of not getting a PS5, and buying an XSX instead. It was also going to be whether I purchase an XSX in addition to my PS5, and for what I'm told it's 18% more Flops and games that I'll be able to play even on my existing Mac Pro... I don't see the value proposition in that.

Perhaps Sony should be competing with them, but they have far more to lose from making their existing userbase unhappy so they are playing it cautiously. I personally don't agree that Sony need to play that game at all, because they are undisputed leaders in home consoles, but it's only smart for them to hedge their bets, like they did with their purchase of Gaikai and OnLive's patents.

The reason that you suggest Sony should be competing in the PC space - because MS are - is ludicrous though. I don't think you should be painting both Sony and MS with the same brush. MS have attempted to make inroads into the PC space for decades, trying and failing many times.

Again, I'm speaking as a fan, an individual, and a consumer and Hermen Hulst has said they are 100% committed to console gamers and H:ZD coming out on PC doesn't necessarily mean all 1st party games are coming to PC. That's enough for me.

That's why you need to balance out your anecdotal perspective with the larger market one. Your hang-ups are from a personal POV which certainly has value, but at least from what I've seen, some of it is based on misintepretation. You mention the 18% flops thing for starters; well at least now people seem to finally be over the TF hump, but instead of balancing that out, there's a lot of certain people trying to make TF completely irrelevant now. That's just them going from one extreme to the other extreme, dumb decision in both cases. TFs alone don't make a system better or worst than the other, but thinking it's only going to be used for prettier graphics is a pretty bad misinterpetation IMHO. We've already seen this gen that isn't strictly the case and current-gen was hamstrung by shitty CPUs. That increases the scope of GPGPU for next gen by magnitudes.

The Mac Pro thing, again that's a personal POV but you have to understand that isn't the case for a lot of people and some just don't WANT to play games on their laptop or PC. Even if I had a PC rig that could run circles around next-gen, I'd still be interested in picking both systems up because if I'm using my PC for productivity work the majority of the day, I don't want to ALSO unwind and try chilling on that same PC to play games after spending hours working on it. Taking my play to the living room, lounging on a couch, kicking my feet up there and having a big screen to game on (or watch movies on) is a much better gaming experience to me versus doing everything on PC. Your perspective in that regard is probably not aligned with the majority; again it doesn't mean it's invalid. But the proportion is what it is and it's always worth considering.

My point about MS and Sony competing in PC space isn't ludicrous; you missed my entire point. I was implying that Sony's reason for shifting towards that space as another market segment (that doesn't have to come at the expense of the console market, btw) has more to do with them future-proofing their market possibilities. Look, home consoles as we know them now won't be around forever, except perhaps with Nintendo, and even they're more interested in the hybrid stuff now. Entertainment markets are converging into more and more shared ecosystems, and with entertainment options ballooning, companies have to compete against more options than they did in the past.

Sony has a history as a strong consumer electronics company but the markets for dedicated electronics they built their reputation on are shrinking, some have for a long time now. Those markets, like CD players (Walkman), televisions (Trinitron) etc. are still important markets but the gulf in the amount of quality and features you'd get from low-end brands back in the day compared to the upper-tier brands has basically reached the point of diminished returns for the majority of mainstream consumers. There used to be a time the average person wouldn't dare want to pick up a cheapo 3rd-rate television from the '90s over a Sony, JVC, Hitachi etc. TV. Nowadays you've got no-name 4K brands who can offer the same tech and features (for the most part) as the similarly-priced premier-brand sets, and the level of quality, features etc. to the average mainstream consumer means they're almost just as likely to pick that no-name brand over an established one. It doesn't even matter to a lot of them if the no-name brand is less reliable, because with how commonplace budget-shopping trends have become most people buy new TVs out of habit on Black Friday or Christmas holiday even if they don't NEED a new TV!

That's something Sony or MS don't want to get stuck with when it comes to console gaming; a future where the abilities of a relatively top-end gaming system can be had in commodity systems, phones etc. by less-established brands but wherein the performance delta between their offerings and Sony's or MS's is so small to the average consumer that they just go with which one can offer it cheaper. We already know the smartphone gaming market trumps the console gaming one by a considerable amount; if and when smartphone makers like Apple can manage to squeeze power into their devices that can match a home console, and standardize console-style controls, that's when shit get real for guys like Microsoft and Sony. Why do you think MS mentioned Google and Amazon as potential competitors? Why do you think Apple has Apple Arcade? Do you not think these smartphone companies are looking at stuff like the Switch and seeing how they can emulate that in their own space to offer competitor products?

Point is, Sony, MS and even Nintendo have to compete with more than just themselves these days. Back in the '90s and '00s entertainment markets as a whole were more divergent or "stayed in their own lane", so to speak. They still competed with each other against consumers for their entertainment dollars but nowhere near the level it is today, because the lack of mainstream internet or having TONS of entertainment options both available to them (or produced; costs of production and free/middleware solutions have made production of entertainment cheaper and easier than ever) acted as safeguards. Those are mostly gone now, and that's even before I get into the crossover effect (i.e there was less general crossover of industries as a whole back then, say gaming and film for example. You had your usual licensed games (most of them sucked) and a few actors (B/C/D-tier ones) in games but that was about it).

Microsoft doesn't want to find themselves in that kind of position, no company does. So it makes sense to build towards a future where if market conditions drastically change (and trends indicate such coming along the way), they are ready to quickly respond and adjust. Sony is just as interested in securing their long-term future as well, THAT's why I'm saying they are doing a lot of the same things as MS, just less so due to being a bit further behind the 8-ball and other factors. It wasn't me trying to paint them with a broad brush as if to besmirch them. I'm just talking wider, long-term market possibilities and realities.

This upcoming gen might be the last one we get before the rate of technological development and costs for R&D, production, marketing etc. of a console (plus the standardization of architectural specifications across sectors of consumer tech industries) reach a convergence point where the barrier to entry opens things up for a lot of other players, including big players like Apple or Google. We can laugh at Stadia right now; it's garbage in its current form. But we know where it can lead to and that's the part companies like MS (and yes, Sony) are being mindful of.

I think you're being a bit naive to take everything someone like Herman Hurst says upfront; look at the actions and not the words. I mentioned God of War 4 for a reason; it's had info altered on its site the same way Horizon did before that got confirmed for PC. Death Stranding (strongly associated with Sony and PS as pretty much a 1st-party title) got a PC release confirmed before the PS4 version even came out. Games like Dreams might be making their way to PC, and we already know Sony will probably be using Azure servers in some capacity the next few years. You can call that "hedging their bets" and that's well and good, because they are. But whatever distinction you think there is between them "hedging bets" and MS trying to "save face" or go all in while treating consoles as an afterthought, well you've already mentioned yourself you have a bias, and you've probably mixed that up with misinterpetation of some things that have been said by both companies.

And I hope everything I'm saying isn't taken the wrong way. Some people'll probably see everything I've written here and think I'm trying to push support for one brand over another or whatever. Neither MS or Sony are lining my pockets so I could care less if whatever I say is for or against certain ideas or actions around them. But I like this kind of speculation a lot, same with console specs as a whole, and I just have a habit of writing a lot. But while you might have your bias for Sony this gen and my preference (in terms of which one I'm getting out of the gate) is mostly neutral but leaning towards XSX, I just have to scratch my head when people keep trying to tell themselves these two companies are wildly different from each other in terms of their end-goal in pursuing GaaS and cloud initiatives, and a more platform-agnostic model. They're more alike in those goals for their gaming efforts than some would like to admit; the difference is with MS being mostly driven by productivity and services software, the gaming stuff happens to be more obviously tied into it. Outside of gaming software and some PC productivity stuff (music creator stuff, etc.), Sony isn't really "driven" by software, so they have more leeway in how that type of stuff can be messaged alongside general PS developments.

It's down mostly to image of perception where people think the end-goals in each one's gaming divisions differ, but that perception isn't as true as some would like to think. And for those who don't want to acknowledge such, they are basically (usually) paranoid about the end-goal down to misunderstanding and fear of the shift, because they think it will automatically entail a replacement, rather than an additive to what we are already used to. It CAN be additive and whichever company does that will be better positioned going forward. Right now, MS seems like that company out of the two, but we'll see where Sony is in that regard in a couple more years.

i don't really see what past 2 generations ms innovate at? apart upgrading and adding given tech at the time.
sony does that and also inovates with ps3 cell, blu-ray, with ps4 8 ace engines, vr, with ps5 super fast ssd, audio.

PS5 is only getting haptic feedback now; MS had haptic feedback in XBO controller in 2013. It was simply under-utilized.

Cell was a technological dead-end that costed Sony all PS1 and PS2 profits; it's work with SPEs was helpful with multi-core processor development but Cell as its whole technological self never materialized to the level its investors wanted. It also wasn't JUST a Sony thing: IBM and Toshiba were just as involved and IBM honestly pushed development further than Sony did (they supported iterative development on Cell longer than Sony, up to even early years of PS4).

Blu-Ray was similarly a mutli-company effort. Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic etc. were ALL involved in its development, that's why the Blu Ray Disc Association exists. Sony helped it proliferate with PS3, but they were hardly the only ones who developed the tech.

The Ace engines were not actually exclusive to PS4; at pretty much the same time it was released, the RX 290X, which also featured Ace engines, launched. So it's debatable how much of that was due to Sony designing them themselves and working with AMD to put in, or if the Ace engines were already a part of AMD's roadmap at the time Sony leveraged them for inclusion in PS4. Going by what we're seeing from them and MS this gen regarding RDNA2, the latter was the more probable scenario.

Now I'm not taking anything away from what Sony did with PS3 and PS4, and they have done a lot of neat things with PS5's SSD and audio. But we also don't know all of the details on both systems in terms of how this stuff really works, and what potential specific benefits and disadvantages they could bring. And at least from what we've seen so far it's not like MS's audio is any slouch, either; the two seem at least even on that note, and their SSD seems to have a lot of the same features as Sony's though it's over 2x slower in actual hardware terms (and probably has less flash channels as well for number of chips).

I could go on to clarify your other point, but I'm running out of time to post for now. Maybe might edit later.

Personally I think Sony were in a place where to get the best backwards compatibility then 36CUs was beneficial. This perhaps was also a carry over from earlier designs for a planned release in 2019. So they consider that and thought how far can we push it? What can we put around it to get the most out of it? To that end it sounds like they did a really good job.

In terms of end result is it as beastly as the XSX? No. Will it perform somewhere close to that whilst still helping meeting compatibility goals? Yes. Will it also offer something different that can be exploited by devs (at the very least - first party ones)? Yes.

I agree, they maximized the shit out of that GPU chip by pushing the clocks as high they have, that's impressive. But I think people need to be more realistic about performance metrics between the two. Overall they should perform mostly on par, but we also know typical 3rd-party titles usually don't utilize very specific advantages of hardware unless they have a true need to (either it's a 3rd-party exclusive, timed-exclusive, etc.).

There will be, even in third-party titles (some at least) areas where PS5's advantages give it an edge here or there, and other areas where XXS's advantage will give it the edge. I've been calculating a lot of numbers on known info for both systems so far and have come to some interesting conclusions for the both of them, but I'm not finished with that yet. Anyway, yes we also know that it has the very good SSD that will be uitlized by 1st-party devs in particular, but XSX has a raw GPU advantage where it will have a big lead in GPGPU compute tasks for non-graphics code, that IMHO will bring bigger game design shifts than simply the SSDs.

It's a case though where both systems can essentially leverage advantages that the other has the strength in (PS5 - SSD, XSX - GPGPU compute), they just have to sacrifice in a few other things to do so (PS5 - graphics fidelity, XSX - GPGPU compute (might have to use parts of that to make up for slower SSD). Just very vague and general situations on my end, but something I've been thinking will be defining cases from the 1st-party between the two.

Anyway that's all I can post for now, I typed WAY more than anticipated xD.

 

[Shmunter]

Good lord, there should be a word count limit on posts

 

[BluRayHiDef]

How does my current build stack up to the PS5 and the Xbox 4?

• i7-5820k @ stock frequencies
• Asus X99 Deluxe motherboard
• 4x4GB Crucial 2400 MHz DDR4 RAM
• EVGA GTX 1080 Ti
• Samsung EVO 500GB Sata SSD
• Western Digital Blue 6TB & 4TB HDDs
• Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB HDD
• NZXT H440 Mid-Sized Tower

If I upgrade to a 3080Ti but keep the rest of my system the same, will my system be more powerful than the next generation of consoles?

 

[Aceofspades]

Good lord, there should be a word count limit on posts

Some people type faster than others

 

[Shmunter]

Some people type faster than others

Type faster than I can read

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Good lord, there should be a word count limit on posts

So you want to turn GAF into Twitter? ...

 

[SonGoku]

All i want for Christmas is a nextgen only GTA6 to take full advantage of those blazing fast SSDs & CPUs inside the new consoles
No cross-platform garbage limiting the scope and possibilities

But who am i kidding R* probably wants one final job on current gen to print money and coast through it the entirety of next gen

 

[Farrell55]

That's why you need to balance out your anecdotal perspective with the larger market one. Your hang-ups are from a personal POV which certainly has value, but at least from what I've seen, some of it is based on misintepretation. You mention the 18% flops thing for starters; well at least now people seem to finally be over the TF hump, but instead of balancing that out, there's a lot of certain people trying to make TF completely irrelevant now. That's just them going from one extreme to the other extreme, dumb decision in both cases. TFs alone don't make a system better or worst than the other, but thinking it's only going to be used for prettier graphics is a pretty bad misinterpetation IMHO. We've already seen this gen that isn't strictly the case and current-gen was hamstrung by shitty CPUs. That increases the scope of GPGPU for next gen by magnitudes.

The Mac Pro thing, again that's a personal POV but you have to understand that isn't the case for a lot of people and some just don't WANT to play games on their laptop or PC. Even if I had a PC rig that could run circles around next-gen, I'd still be interested in picking both systems up because if I'm using my PC for productivity work the majority of the day, I don't want to ALSO unwind and try chilling on that same PC to play games after spending hours working on it. Taking my play to the living room, lounging on a couch, kicking my feet up there and having a big screen to game on (or watch movies on) is a much better gaming experience to me versus doing everything on PC. Your perspective in that regard is probably not aligned with the majority; again it doesn't mean it's invalid. But the proportion is what it is and it's always worth considering.

My point about MS and Sony competing in PC space isn't ludicrous; you missed my entire point. I was implying that Sony's reason for shifting towards that space as another market segment (that doesn't have to come at the expense of the console market, btw) has more to do with them future-proofing their market possibilities. Look, home consoles as we know them now won't be around forever, except perhaps with Nintendo, and even they're more interested in the hybrid stuff now. Entertainment markets are converging into more and more shared ecosystems, and with entertainment options ballooning, companies have to compete against more options than they did in the past.

Sony has a history as a strong consumer electronics company but the markets for dedicated electronics they built their reputation on are shrinking, some have for a long time now. Those markets, like CD players (Walkman), televisions (Trinitron) etc. are still important markets but the gulf in the amount of quality and features you'd get from low-end brands back in the day compared to the upper-tier brands has basically reached the point of diminished returns for the majority of mainstream consumers. There used to be a time the average person wouldn't dare want to pick up a cheapo 3rd-rate television from the '90s over a Sony, JVC, Hitachi etc. TV. Nowadays you've got no-name 4K brands who can offer the same tech and features (for the most part) as the similarly-priced premier-brand sets, and the level of quality, features etc. to the average mainstream consumer means they're almost just as likely to pick that no-name brand over an established one. It doesn't even matter to a lot of them if the no-name brand is less reliable, because with how commonplace budget-shopping trends have become most people buy new TVs out of habit on Black Friday or Christmas holiday even if they don't NEED a new TV!

That's something Sony or MS don't want to get stuck with when it comes to console gaming; a future where the abilities of a relatively top-end gaming system can be had in commodity systems, phones etc. by less-established brands but wherein the performance delta between their offerings and Sony's or MS's is so small to the average consumer that they just go with which one can offer it cheaper. We already know the smartphone gaming market trumps the console gaming one by a considerable amount; if and when smartphone makers like Apple can manage to squeeze power into their devices that can match a home console, and standardize console-style controls, that's when shit get real for guys like Microsoft and Sony. Why do you think MS mentioned Google and Amazon as potential competitors? Why do you think Apple has Apple Arcade? Do you not think these smartphone companies are looking at stuff like the Switch and seeing how they can emulate that in their own space to offer competitor products?

Point is, Sony, MS and even Nintendo have to compete with more than just themselves these days. Back in the '90s and '00s entertainment markets as a whole were more divergent or "stayed in their own lane", so to speak. They still competed with each other against consumers for their entertainment dollars but nowhere near the level it is today, because the lack of mainstream internet or having TONS of entertainment options both available to them (or produced; costs of production and free/middleware solutions have made production of entertainment cheaper and easier than ever) acted as safeguards. Those are mostly gone now, and that's even before I get into the crossover effect (i.e there was less general crossover of industries as a whole back then, say gaming and film for example. You had your usual licensed games (most of them sucked) and a few actors (B/C/D-tier ones) in games but that was about it).

Microsoft doesn't want to find themselves in that kind of position, no company does. So it makes sense to build towards a future where if market conditions drastically change (and trends indicate such coming along the way), they are ready to quickly respond and adjust. Sony is just as interested in securing their long-term future as well, THAT's why I'm saying they are doing a lot of the same things as MS, just less so due to being a bit further behind the 8-ball and other factors. It wasn't me trying to paint them with a broad brush as if to besmirch them. I'm just talking wider, long-term market possibilities and realities.

This upcoming gen might be the last one we get before the rate of technological development and costs for R&D, production, marketing etc. of a console (plus the standardization of architectural specifications across sectors of consumer tech industries) reach a convergence point where the barrier to entry opens things up for a lot of other players, including big players like Apple or Google. We can laugh at Stadia right now; it's garbage in its current form. But we know where it can lead to and that's the part companies like MS (and yes, Sony) are being mindful of.

I think you're being a bit naive to take everything someone like Herman Hurst says upfront; look at the actions and not the words. I mentioned God of War 4 for a reason; it's had info altered on its site the same way Horizon did before that got confirmed for PC. Death Stranding (strongly associated with Sony and PS as pretty much a 1st-party title) got a PC release confirmed before the PS4 version even came out. Games like Dreams might be making their way to PC, and we already know Sony will probably be using Azure servers in some capacity the next few years. You can call that "hedging their bets" and that's well and good, because they are. But whatever distinction you think there is between them "hedging bets" and MS trying to "save face" or go all in while treating consoles as an afterthought, well you've already mentioned yourself you have a bias, and you've probably mixed that up with misinterpetation of some things that have been said by both companies.

And I hope everything I'm saying isn't taken the wrong way. Some people'll probably see everything I've written here and think I'm trying to push support for one brand over another or whatever. Neither MS or Sony are lining my pockets so I could care less if whatever I say is for or against certain ideas or actions around them. But I like this kind of speculation a lot, same with console specs as a whole, and I just have a habit of writing a lot. But while you might have your bias for Sony this gen and my preference (in terms of which one I'm getting out of the gate) is mostly neutral but leaning towards XSX, I just have to scratch my head when people keep trying to tell themselves these two companies are wildly different from each other in terms of their end-goal in pursuing GaaS and cloud initiatives, and a more platform-agnostic model. They're more alike in those goals for their gaming efforts than some would like to admit; the difference is with MS being mostly driven by productivity and services software, the gaming stuff happens to be more obviously tied into it. Outside of gaming software and some PC productivity stuff (music creator stuff, etc.), Sony isn't really "driven" by software, so they have more leeway in how that type of stuff can be messaged alongside general PS developments.

It's down mostly to image of perception where people think the end-goals in each one's gaming divisions differ, but that perception isn't as true as some would like to think. And for those who don't want to acknowledge such, they are basically (usually) paranoid about the end-goal down to misunderstanding and fear of the shift, because they think it will automatically entail a replacement, rather than an additive to what we are already used to. It CAN be additive and whichever company does that will be better positioned going forward. Right now, MS seems like that company out of the two, but we'll see where Sony is in that regard in a couple more years.



PS5 is only getting haptic feedback now; MS had haptic feedback in XBO controller in 2013. It was simply under-utilized.

Cell was a technological dead-end that costed Sony all PS1 and PS2 profits; it's work with SPEs was helpful with multi-core processor development but Cell as its whole technological self never materialized to the level its investors wanted. It also wasn't JUST a Sony thing: IBM and Toshiba were just as involved and IBM honestly pushed development further than Sony did (they supported iterative development on Cell longer than Sony, up to even early years of PS4).

Blu-Ray was similarly a mutli-company effort. Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic etc. were ALL involved in its development, that's why the Blu Ray Disc Association exists. Sony helped it proliferate with PS3, but they were hardly the only ones who developed the tech.

The Ace engines were not actually exclusive to PS4; at pretty much the same time it was released, the RX 290X, which also featured Ace engines, launched. So it's debatable how much of that was due to Sony designing them themselves and working with AMD to put in, or if the Ace engines were already a part of AMD's roadmap at the time Sony leveraged them for inclusion in PS4. Going by what we're seeing from them and MS this gen regarding RDNA2, the latter was the more probable scenario.

Now I'm not taking anything away from what Sony did with PS3 and PS4, and they have done a lot of neat things with PS5's SSD and audio. But we also don't know all of the details on both systems in terms of how this stuff really works, and what potential specific benefits and disadvantages they could bring. And at least from what we've seen so far it's not like MS's audio is any slouch, either; the two seem at least even on that note, and their SSD seems to have a lot of the same features as Sony's though it's over 2x slower in actual hardware terms (and probably has less flash channels as well for number of chips).

I could go on to clarify your other point, but I'm running out of time to post for now. Maybe might edit later.



I agree, they maximized the shit out of that GPU chip by pushing the clocks as high they have, that's impressive. But I think people need to be more realistic about performance metrics between the two. Overall they should perform mostly on par, but we also know typical 3rd-party titles usually don't utilize very specific advantages of hardware unless they have a true need to (either it's a 3rd-party exclusive, timed-exclusive, etc.).

There will be, even in third-party titles (some at least) areas where PS5's advantages give it an edge here or there, and other areas where XXS's advantage will give it the edge. I've been calculating a lot of numbers on known info for both systems so far and have come to some interesting conclusions for the both of them, but I'm not finished with that yet. Anyway, yes we also know that it has the very good SSD that will be uitlized by 1st-party devs in particular, but XSX has a raw GPU advantage where it will have a big lead in GPGPU compute tasks for non-graphics code, that IMHO will bring bigger game design shifts than simply the SSDs.

It's a case though where both systems can essentially leverage advantages that the other has the strength in (PS5 - SSD, XSX - GPGPU compute), they just have to sacrifice in a few other things to do so (PS5 - graphics fidelity, XSX - GPGPU compute (might have to use parts of that to make up for slower SSD). Just very vague and general situations on my end, but something I've been thinking will be defining cases from the 1st-party between the two.

Anyway that's all I can post for now, I typed WAY more than anticipated xD.

More words than Shakespeare's Macbeth...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I don't think so. it's more the brand. PlayStation is a very strong brand. Look at how absolutely abysmal the PS3 launched. terrible system in basically every regard... the OS didn't have essential features that even the og Xbox already had like friends lists.
the launch lineup and game lineup for the first year or two was abysmal and every single multiplat ran like absolute shit on it for a few years.

yet, was is a disaster? nope, in fact it quickly caught up in monthly sales to the 360.
you can't explain that through exclusives, the average consumer just saw "oh it's the new PlayStation" and that was enough, even tho the 360 was destroying the PS3 when it came to the game lineup and game quality + way better OS for a couple of years.

the PS3 didn't start outselling the 360 monthly, even if it was only by a tiny amount, because of games or a great user experience, it did so because it was a PlayStation, and specially in Europe that name is good enough for many to buy the console.

People hate Microsoft more than they love Sony. Microsoft painted a bad image for decades now, and still doing so. If your dad is so hated, people tend to hate you as well. (Not referring to you of course, but a concept)

 

[Aceofspades]

How does my current build stack up to the PS5 and the Xbox 4?

• i7-5820k @ stock frequencies
• Asus X99 Deluxe motherboard
• 4x4GB Crucial 2400 MHz DDR4 RAM
• EVGA GTX 1080 Ti
• Samsung EVO 500GB Sata SSD
• Western Digital Blue 6TB & 4TB HDDs
• Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB HDD
• NZXT H440 Mid-Sized Tower

If I upgrade to a 3080Ti but keep the rest of my system the same, will my system be more powerful than the next generation of consoles?

HDD ? Ewwwwwww