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Next gen should every game have an easy mode?
- Thread starter Hostile_18
- Start date
- Opinion
kretos
Banned
LOL Dark Souls must be a torment for him if he even dare to try it
Nymphae
Banned
Some games are designed to be hard. How do you put an easy mode into Tetris: The Grandmaster? The game is the difficult rule set and mechanics.
In a more general way, no, I think it should be up to the developer to decide what the experience is going to be about and if that means making a game so hard most people can't complete it, that's their call.
In a more general way, no, I think it should be up to the developer to decide what the experience is going to be about and if that means making a game so hard most people can't complete it, that's their call.
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Ar¢tos
Member
But Dark Souls has difficulty options, they are just not spelled out for the player.
Easy mode : Sorcerer
Dark Bead in hyper mode one shots every boss.
You can get nearly everything you need in the first areas of the game, until you get Dark Bead and TCC you can just 2-3 shot bosses with Great Heavy Soul Arrow/Soul Spear.
The other enemies you can very easily run by all of them.
Hard mode : Don't level up or keep your level low.
I'm playing the Remastered right now and I killed most bosses with a lvl 40 limited to +8 weapons (Depths/Blighttown co-op) . I still have a few bosses to kill but after doing Artorias and Manus I know the rest is much easier.
It is much more challenging, I do little damage and hyper mode isn't as reliable because of low mag adjust and FAP ring taking a slot permanently.
Next one will be a lvl17 with +5 weapons for Burg/Parish co-op.
I guess that instead of using 5min to research things, people want an easy mode that replaces every boss with Pinwheel and adds summon signs for Iron Tarkus and Paladin Leeroy before each boss (just in case Pinwheel is too hard for them). No poison or toxic darts in Blighttown, no Basilisks in the Hollow or Depths, TOG illuminated like a supermarket and a no invasion option.
Hostile_18
Banned
I'm surprised so many people are against more people been able to play more games that they otherwise couldn't.
It wouldn't effect us in anyway. If you think someone playing a game you enjoyed in a lesser difficulty would ruin the experience you had... well I dont really know what to say.
I've played hundreds upon hundreds of games and not one would have been ruined by adding a extra difficulty mode to let more people play IMO.
Telling other people they should ignore entire experiences or watch on youtube rather than ask the developers to be more inclusive of peoples abilities/disabilitys/time, that just seems crazy to me.
It wouldn't effect us in anyway. If you think someone playing a game you enjoyed in a lesser difficulty would ruin the experience you had... well I dont really know what to say.
I've played hundreds upon hundreds of games and not one would have been ruined by adding a extra difficulty mode to let more people play IMO.
Telling other people they should ignore entire experiences or watch on youtube rather than ask the developers to be more inclusive of peoples abilities/disabilitys/time, that just seems crazy to me.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Developers should feel free to make what ever they want to make regardless what you and other people think and you are more than free not to like it.
Not everything made for everybody, why cant you understand this simple fact? Games like Animal Crossing doesn’t have crazy hardcore difficulty because it’s going for different type of experience and so is games like Sekiro.
Again FROM made name for themselves for that very reason and guess what, it working out for them.
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Hostile_18
Banned
Do you feel personally attacked those casuals taking away your hobby? Perhaps a game you grinded in your basement before your mam called you up for supper each night broke you inside? Deep down you know she dosnt respect your skills as an elite gamer! What with always demanding you tidy your room when there is a ultra demanding boss to be taken care of.
Don't worry sleep tight my sweet prince, the chances of developers patching in an easy mode, over night while you sleep dreaming of fabled adventures of yore is infact very low.
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Hostile_18
Banned
But your missing the point any gamer can buy animal crossing and play it whether they enjoy it or not. Someone who picks up a tough game cant. I'm asking for small changes so that people who arnt as skilled can still play any game that choose.
Where we disagree is you believe certain games should only be for certain people based on skill level and I believe certain games should only be for certain people based on the content they offer.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
No its same thing, there are people who cant enjoy certain game because too easy same way people can't enjoy the game because too hard because each games made for different experiences and trust me I'm no high skill gamer but I enjoy struggling to get better at the game but some people have no patience for that but thats on them not the game.But your missing the point any gamer can buy animal crossing and play it whether they enjoy it or not. Someone who picks up a tough game cant. I'm asking for small changes so that people who arnt as skilled can still play any game that choose.
Where we disagree is you believe certain games should only be for certain people based on skill level and I believe certain games should only be for certain people based on the content they offer.
I said this 10000 times already, we have 1000 up on 1000 games and there is a game for every gamer, we have tons of option here.
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nickname_esco
Member
I vote yes.
If i see a tv series i want to watch, I can watch the trailer, I might check rotten tomatoes to see general review/consensus. But this is usually enough for me to watch it, and know enough to get a pretty good idea if I'd enjoy it. I don't delve further as i want to go in as blind as possible sometimes. And of course there's many people out there who don't really check reviews. They see a cool trailer and boom they watch the show.
In gaming, this isn't possible for a fair chunk of games. You can't just 'try' a game to see if it's something you would enjoy. You need to read about the difficulty level. Otherwise you will be walking into something that may have everything else going for it, except this 1 feature which is often the difference between a game being fun or not. In gaming you can't just watch a trailer and play the game. Not if you don't know much about it like many indie games or games in a genre you don't really know about, or heck if you're not a core gamer and you just browsing trailers. I think this system is holding gaming back for a pretty large audience out there.
If a dev is THAT insistent on making the game difficult, fuk it, just allow someone to play on a easy mode that doesn't get you any achievements.
If i see a tv series i want to watch, I can watch the trailer, I might check rotten tomatoes to see general review/consensus. But this is usually enough for me to watch it, and know enough to get a pretty good idea if I'd enjoy it. I don't delve further as i want to go in as blind as possible sometimes. And of course there's many people out there who don't really check reviews. They see a cool trailer and boom they watch the show.
In gaming, this isn't possible for a fair chunk of games. You can't just 'try' a game to see if it's something you would enjoy. You need to read about the difficulty level. Otherwise you will be walking into something that may have everything else going for it, except this 1 feature which is often the difference between a game being fun or not. In gaming you can't just watch a trailer and play the game. Not if you don't know much about it like many indie games or games in a genre you don't really know about, or heck if you're not a core gamer and you just browsing trailers. I think this system is holding gaming back for a pretty large audience out there.
If a dev is THAT insistent on making the game difficult, fuk it, just allow someone to play on a easy mode that doesn't get you any achievements.
Hostile_18
Banned
More customers = More sales = more profit = more sequels/support.
All that for including a mode the vast majority of us can ignore.
Plus it must suck for a unskilled gamer to be locked out of so many amazing games. They deserve to be seen/played by as many people as possible. Its not compromising a developers vision (when the preferred difficulty can be clearly stated) but rather better rewarding them with recognition and bonuses/residuals for all their years of hard work.
It would be interesting to see a break down of the popularity of different difficulty modes. I wonder what percentage of people play on explorer difficulty on Uncharted for example? I bet that information might be gained from the trophy lists actually.
All that for including a mode the vast majority of us can ignore.
Plus it must suck for a unskilled gamer to be locked out of so many amazing games. They deserve to be seen/played by as many people as possible. Its not compromising a developers vision (when the preferred difficulty can be clearly stated) but rather better rewarding them with recognition and bonuses/residuals for all their years of hard work.
It would be interesting to see a break down of the popularity of different difficulty modes. I wonder what percentage of people play on explorer difficulty on Uncharted for example? I bet that information might be gained from the trophy lists actually.
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Ar¢tos
Member
I'm surprised that you want to force developers to sacrifice their visions for a chance of making more money and inclusion.
When every game becomes easy, every game becomes the same.
It's gaming communism.
What would be the joy of playing Blasphemous if the game was easy? Absolutely none!
Even adding an optional easy mode would turn it into a bad game.
When you make something like that easy for someone, you take away the reason for the game to even exist, it becomes a boring game.
Not to mention that sometimes it's impossible to add an easy mode without extensive redesign of the game, its not always the enemies that make a game hard (example : Tomb of Giants in Dark Souls 1).
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
But games like Sekiro sold well and majority of people love their games and they achived that without sacrificing their vision, so real question is why should they?
Also with that logic, every game should have battle royal mode because it would sell more.......right?
Hostile_18
Banned
While I do like a good challenge I think there is more to games than just the challenge they offer. The world building and exploration for Dark Souls for example is amazing.
There must be a reason people play on easy if there wasnt no one would do it. Players are actively putting down money and choosing to play that mode.
I've played plenty of games that were super tough to beat, but I've never once thought a level was designed in a way that made an easy mode possible. Perhaps those design decisions do exist but I imagine it's very rare. Game design wise theres always a way round it IMO, if your creative enough as a developer.
Optimistic Gamer
Member
That's why the general audience like all of these products. As a dev I'd prefer 10 casuals enjoy my game to 1 entitled little shit who will still complain.
Hostile_18
Banned
Well that's a none accessibility feature that would be a ton of work so I wont wade into that one. All games cant be all things in terms of content (however Ubisoft normally try lol).
Sekiro is an interesting case because it's only been one game. Is it popular because of the difficulty or in spite of it? I wonder how many people got burned on it in terms of difficulty. We'd only begin to get informed data if they ever released a sequel really.
All interesting points to consider. It's an interesting subject really difficulty in games, especially as the medium grows. Games on the whole are alot easier now, but I feel like were getting better and better experiences really barring the odd hiccups along the way (like loot boxes).
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
People keep saying this to you but you refuse to listen, its ultimately developers choice and their choice alone what they want to do with their game and they shouldn't be force to do it.
I support developers freedom, simple as that.
Optimistic Gamer
Member
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Hostile_18
Banned
I respect your choice but I disagree.
Games should be as accessible and inclusive of all types of people no matter their skill level or disability.
Its how we mature and grow the medium.
Plus how would you even know what is a developers vision and what is due to funding or time constraints etc. Is it one directors vision, is that how the rest of the team feels? Are they in alignment?
Let people play the games they purchase how they want.
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
And let developers make what they want, it’s very simple concept.
We can go circle arguing about this all day but at end of the day FROM made their choice and it paid off, regardless if you like it or not.
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Hostile_18
Banned
Agreed were just going round in circles.
FROM have been successful no doubt about it. But you cant claim to know that more inclusive difficulty options wouldn't result in more sales because they have never done that..your speculating just like we all are.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Because FROM made name for themselves for making this type of game, they are popular for that very reason.
Hostile_18
Banned
There amazing games but not because they don't have an easy mode. I think your giving a disservice to the games there. Theres so much more to them than that.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I myself really not that high skill player, I’m average. but I was able beat games like Bloodborne (offline) and Sekiro because in reality they very fair in their difficulty. What they are really asking you is careful play and patience and they punish your mistakes. That type of gameplay also adds to its atmosphere and it lore because it makes each encounter intense and you are fighting for your life because that what games narrative is all about.
If you can't get that, then I'm sorry there is nothing for us to discuses.
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Hostile_18
Banned
And likewise if you can understand that not everyone has the same skill/reaction time/awareness and sight then that's on you.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Hows that on me exactly!?
like I said, my skill is average, If I can beat those games so can everyone else. It just matter of if you willing put little effort, just like everything else in life.
This argument getting us nowhere, I’m done here.
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Hostile_18
Banned
People arnt all the same. If they were youd be right.
Theres tons of factors that effect someone's performance (ohhh arrrr). Age, mental capacity, reaction times, environment, free time, dedication, screen size etc.
Everyone isnt on the same curve. What is a challenge for you might be an insurmountable problem for someone else.
nkarafo
Member
I want to experience Final Fantasy games but i can't stand turn based battles. They confuse and frustrate me. I want them to change it to real time so i won't be locked out. Can i?
Hostile_18
Banned
No as that's changing the content of the game. In your case though say you tried a game it confused frustrated you then a more elegant, thought out tutorial to ease you into the combat would be appropriate. Pacing out the more advanced mechanics etc.
Doom eternal is a good example of a complex game mechanically that had its systems explained slowly to the player as they progressed.
nkarafo
Member
But you said the point of all this is for everyone to be able to enjoy ALL games. So if the developers should have easy modes in all games, they should also add (not change) a real time battle mode in turn based games, regardless how much development time and money it takes. Otherwise i can't enjoy them.
You do realise the potential of this rabbit hole i assume.
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Hostile_18
Banned
Oh come dont compare adding in a whole new battle mode to tweaking a few properties such as player and enemy health to allow less skilled players to be able to play a game they otherwise would enjoy.
The fact you have to jump throw such a hoop to justify it is telling
Skyr
Member
I think there are better form of media out there if you just want to shut your brain off and relax.
Most games today have easy modes or are easy by default.
Games like the souls series are an exception and it being challenging is part of what made it popular in the first place.
I myself would have never touched Dark Souls 1 if people didn't rave about how challenging but at the same time rewarding it is.
If you don't like 5% of the games that don't have and easy mode/aren't ease, go play the other 95%. You can't possibly consume everything.
Most games today have easy modes or are easy by default.
Games like the souls series are an exception and it being challenging is part of what made it popular in the first place.
I myself would have never touched Dark Souls 1 if people didn't rave about how challenging but at the same time rewarding it is.
If you don't like 5% of the games that don't have and easy mode/aren't ease, go play the other 95%. You can't possibly consume everything.
existensmaximum
Member
I don't understand. Who is supposed to decide this for every game? The gaming police? I think it sounds insane - games should be whatever the developers intend them to be. If I don't like it, I can buy something else, simple. Everything can't be for everyone.
nkarafo
Member
Your whole point was that everyone should be able to enjoy every game. But now you added "as long as its easy for developers"? So not really all games should be for everyone then?Oh come dont compare adding in a whole new battle mode to tweaking a few properties such as player and enemy health to allow less skilled players to be able to play a game they otherwise would enjoy.
The fact you have to jump throw such a hoop to justify it is telling
Which you don't really know if it's easy either way since difficulty isn't just about hp points in all games.
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Quezacolt
Member
By your logic, if i dont enjoy a game like reisdent evil for example, because i can't handle the enemies, either because of the controls or because im bad at saving resources, should the game have a mode where there's no zombies just so i can "enjoy" the game?
Not everything in life is for everyone, and that's ok. I love the souls games for example, but im not good enough when it comes to sekiro and it's focus on the parry, so i dropped the game, and im not asking the game to have an easy mode, because that's not the vision of the devs.
im not good at sports, or stuff like chess for example, and im not asking for those things to be easier just for me. im fine with not experiecing some stuff that clearly werent made for me.
Wanting everything to fit your style and not the other way around is just shows how entitled some people are. No one can experience everything in life and if they could, im sure that no one would enjoy most of them/be good at them, so why should games be any different than how the rest of the world works?
Not everything in life is for everyone, and that's ok. I love the souls games for example, but im not good enough when it comes to sekiro and it's focus on the parry, so i dropped the game, and im not asking the game to have an easy mode, because that's not the vision of the devs.
im not good at sports, or stuff like chess for example, and im not asking for those things to be easier just for me. im fine with not experiecing some stuff that clearly werent made for me.
Wanting everything to fit your style and not the other way around is just shows how entitled some people are. No one can experience everything in life and if they could, im sure that no one would enjoy most of them/be good at them, so why should games be any different than how the rest of the world works?
Radical Dreamer
Member
This thread is going nowhere really. We won't convince you and you won't convince rest that easy mode is needed to "grow medium" (i hate this term, it doesn't mean anything imo)
Hostile_18
Banned
I think one of gamings biggest strengths is that it can be tweaked for the end user without interfering with anyone elses enjoyment.
One hit kills? Sure go for it
Bosses that take 3 hours to beat? Sure go for it.
Options and player choice are rarely bad things IMO. The majority of games do have difficulty modes for all the reasons I've stated in this thread.
Maybe the majority do feel different but I can honestly say how others choose to play a game has never negatively affected me in the slightest. I'm just happy more people get to experience said game.
One hit kills? Sure go for it
Bosses that take 3 hours to beat? Sure go for it.
Options and player choice are rarely bad things IMO. The majority of games do have difficulty modes for all the reasons I've stated in this thread.
Maybe the majority do feel different but I can honestly say how others choose to play a game has never negatively affected me in the slightest. I'm just happy more people get to experience said game.
The Cartographer
Member
No, and it will never, ever happen.
GHG
Member
No, people are soft enough as it is. Struggle makes us better. People need to understand this. Keep removing all the barriers of difficulty and handing out participation trophies and this is what you'll end up with.
In essence, whatever you think is easy enough, won't be enough for some others. People will reee and since the precedent was set the bar will keep getting lower and lower till games basically play themselves. This will also start effect how games are designed. Especially rogue-likes and such.
Lots of people argue that we're already dangerously close with how everyone constantly wants things to just be fed to them. Especially things that promise to make life easier. But make things easier and people get lazier and lazier leading to loss of critical thought and health.
When I was younger, I wanted to be on the Basketball team. There where only so many spots. Knowing that made me work even harder to earn one. No one set the court to easy mode. I had to practice, practice, practice. And even with a heart condition that made my heart beat 2 times faster than everyone else's that I had no idea I had at the time. We still made it to internationals and placed 3rd. I'll never forget that struggle. It absolutely without a doubt made me a better man and equipped me for life later on. Whats better, is that I know I earned it by competing against the best. No one gave me any handouts. That's something I can be proud of for the rest of my life.
I use this analogy a lot when encouraging people to change their lifestyle. I call it the hamburger analogy.
You have two paths, A nad B, that lead to a hamburger. Now, a hamburger isn't the healthiest thing you could eat. Bear that in mind.
Path A is basically a straight and wide path that leads right to the hamburger.
Path B is curvy and full of obstacles that you have to overcome in order to get to the hamburger.
Which path do you think most people would choose to take? I guarantee most today would take the easier path.
However, taking the harder path actually has benefits. You would get a workout by overcoming the obstacles on this path so there are physical benefits. Overcoming odds also gives people mental benefits as well. Feelings of self worth and confidence. All in all, it would be better for you overall to take this path, especially when the reward isn't too healthy, the workout you got would counterbalance this.
But people just don't think about this. Everything today is about instant gratification. This has got to be the most Veruca Salt era there's ever been.
If I'm making a game, the difficulty is absolutely part of the whole experience just as much as any other aspect of the game. Let game makers decide how they want you to experience their game.
Fantastic post.
To add to this, games like dark souls can actually help people with mental health issues:
Don’t Go Hollow: How 'Dark Souls' Is Defeating Depression
Why is a game about despair so uplifting?
www.vice.com
People weaponising "accessibility" throughout this discussion are also horribly off-base (and are frankly disgusting):
Different input methods are required for people with disabilities, not fucking "easy mode". These people specialise in dealing with challenge every single day of their lives, a "difficult" videogame isn't shit to these people. If you're calling for easy mode and you don't have any health reasons to be doing so then you should take a long hard look at yourself because it's not just about videogames - it's deeper than that.
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Spaceman292
Banned
lol so bumtroubled. I bet you got flattened by Capra demonDo you feel personally attacked those casuals taking away your hobby? Perhaps a game you grinded in your basement before your mam called you up for supper each night broke you inside? Deep down you know she dosnt respect your skills as an elite gamer! What with always demanding you tidy your room when there is a ultra demanding boss to be taken care of.
Don't worry sleep tight my sweet prince, the chances of developers patching in an easy mode, over night while you sleep dreaming of fabled adventures of yore is infact very low.
The Bloody-Nine
Member
Didn't this guy say yesterday he was done and was going to let the thread play out? Yet he's still making the same arguments that have already been shot to pieces multiple times.
Let it go.
Let it go.
Hostile_18
Banned
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Ar¢tos
Member
So you want devs to do pandering and tick checkboxes instead of having a vision?
I'm gay, should I be offend that From Software doesn't let me pick a sexual orientation for my character, even if it has no point in the game story?
If a game is hard for someone they can always use cheat engine/save wizard, it's not the devs responsibility. Do you want devs to go to their houses and play the game for them too?
GHG
Member
Haha no I've beat Dark Souls 1-3 and Bloodborne and enjoyed every minute of it!
Show us on the doll where Sekiro hurt you.
Hostile_18
Banned
Spaceman292
Banned
Then why do you want to hamstring the future games?Haha no I've beat Dark Souls 1-3 and Bloodborne and enjoyed every minute of it!