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[harSon]

Wow.

There is a difference, and I'm talking strictly video games here (I hope you were smart enough to figure this out).

 

[123rl]

Please read the article again and then come back and post.

I did read it, thanks for the patronising response. Did you even read it?

He doesn't give a single valid reason for thinking it's racist. Someone mentioned the black villagers are acting like racist stereotypes before they're infected. If that's true then I agree, something like that could be considered racist (although I doubt it's intentional). If Croal had a list of valid reasons why it's racist then I'd probably agree with him, but he has said nothing to justify it

 

[F#A#Oo]

Is the Resident Evil 4 defense the only thing people can come up with? African descended people have been oppressed for hundreds of years whether it being in the United States, Haiti, or Africa itself. Bill Maher said it best, people can't come off of hundreds of years of slavery, oppression, and racism and expect to be on "equal footing". Like it or not, there is a difference between killing any race in a game (White, Spanish, Asian, etc..) and a white guy killing third world shanty town dwelling Haitians.

:lol

What about Indians?

Are you saying;

Blacks>>>>Indians or any other race for that matter?

 

[Htown]

Now here's what bothers me about the whole thing.

Everyone in this thread immediately reacts as though this is a retarded thing to even bring up. That N'Gai is a moron for thinking this. Did you guys even read the interview?

There was stuff like even before the point in the trailer where the crowd turned into zombies. There sort of being, in sort of post-modern parlance, they’re sort of “othered.” They’re hidden in shadows, you can barely see their eyes, and the perspective of the trailer is not even someone who’s coming to help the people. It’s like they’re all dangerous; they all need to be killed. It’s not even like one cute African — or Haitian or Caribbean — child could be saved. They’re all dangerous men, women and children. They all have to be killed. And given the history, given the not so distant post-colonial history, you would say to yourself, why would you uncritically put up those images? It’s not as simple as saying, “Oh, they shot Spanish zombies in ‘Resident Evil 4,’ and now ‘black zombies and that’s why people are getting upset.” The imagery is not the same. It doesn’t carry the same history, it doesn’t carry the same weight. I don’t know how to explain it more clearly than that.

It’s like when you engage that kind of imagery you have to be careful with it. It would be like saying you were going to do some sort of zombie movie that appeared to be set in Europe in the 1940’s with skinny, emaciated, Hasidic-looking people. If you put up that imagery people would be saying, “Are you crazy?” Well, that’s what this stuff looks like. This imagery has a history. It has a history and you can’t pretend otherwise. That imagery still has a history that has to be engaged, that has to be understood. If you’re going to tread, if you’re going to engage imagery that has that potential, the onus is on the creator to be aware of that because there will be repercussions in the marketplace.

It’s very difficult in this country, in many countries, to have a conversation about race. Everyone brings to it their own history, their own perspective. Some people are engaged in it, some people aren’t. I think some people are concerned because some people think there is a double standard. Some people say that when it’s images of only black people then people get concerned. Some people feel like their hobby is under attack; it’s being misinterpreted or misunderstood. Again the portrayal of Africa, or the Caribbean, since we don’t know where it’s being set, as sort of this dark, dangerous continent filled with people who only want to do you harm goes back a long, long way. And based on the images put up on the trailer, what else are you supposed to take from it? Especially if you’re not familiar with the franchise?

Even if you are familiar with the franchise, if you are familiar with those images and their historical weight, you look at it and say, “Man, that’s kind of messed up.” Then you look at the music that was used in the trailers, that’s one of the things that was sort of funny in so that you had those people who were saying, “It’s not even Africa, it’s Haiti or somewhere in the Caribbean.” The music that they’re using in the trailer is very reminiscent of the music used in Black Hawk Down which was set in Africa — Somalia. That actually was one of the things that was most disturbing because it sort of had a feeling as like, “Wow, what research did this team do? Did they only watch Black Hawk Down and give it this kind of vibe?”

He's right about one thing at the very least. NOBODY wants to talk about race in games. Ever. And if you do, you're "retarded" or "stupid" or "hypersensitive", no matter what the context or game. Look at this thread for proof.

 

[Router]

Sigh.

 

[keanerie]

Is this the LocoRoco blackface controversy all over again? I'm going to have to agree with sp0rsk here: The people making this game aren't even aware that they're offending anybody, they just don't know because they don't have that history.

“Wow, clearly no one black worked on this game.”

That's basically it.

Or is N'Gai's complaint that gamers aren't more in an uproar about this allegedly blatant racist imagery? That people are too racially numb and gamers are too focused on "omg RE5 Chris Redfield punchin' zombies" to notice the import of the game's visual language? If so, that's certainly a valid complaint - and he's definitely doing a good job ruffling feathers right now.

Overall though I think we need to look at Western games if you're going to be talking about Western problems. I think N'Gai's imposing some of his complaints about American society in a place where they don't really fit.

 

[Kosma]

Some people are just too sensitive for their own good.

Also it's fucking funny that Ngai tries to act like a historian and say that shooting Spanish people is more ok because they dont have the same history, how fucking ignorant. He probably knows shit all about Spanish history.

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrr better stick to commenting on games and not history Ngai.

 

[Tiduz]

I still dont get that argument, why isnt it racist when you shoot white people? First they are polygons, not real humans, second its only a colour of skin, it wouldnt make sense to have white people in haiti. They did it in africa because thats where humanity started if you watched the interview. nothing racist about it at all IMO.

 

[gofreak]

A lot of gamers have been pushing for a long time to have games evaluated as art. And if you want that, this is what happens-- video games will be evaluated as art.

I know it bugs a lot of gamers because they want critics not to meddle with their awesome zombie head-blowing-off extravaganza (hey, it's fun, I admit), but I think a lot of people are ignoring what this kind of imagery means to some people.

To look at another, very much accepted artform, if I paint a picture of KKK members killing a black person..does that make me racist? If make a movie depicting it?

Those are depictions of events that actually do have a historic link to racist people and events, but EVEN THAT wouldn't necessarily make the work racist, nor its author.

The events in RE5 aren't even remotely that close to forging a racist connection from a historic perspective. It's a fictional concept. You're killing these zombies because they are zombies, not because they're black zombies.

The developers should put a test of your racism in the game! Throw in a lone white zombie! Test the player's reaction? (Duh, the player will shoot it too). It's not about race unless you consider zombies to be a race.

 

[Tobor]

What stereotype? People in poor country are poor? Being racist is saying all black people are stupid, because they're black. These people aren't poor or zombies because they are black. Hell, we hardly know anything about the game's story.

Maybe it's because I'm a white middle class Jew, but I just don't see it!

Same here, and N'Gai said exactly what I was thinking:

It’s like when you engage that kind of imagery you have to be careful with it. It would be like saying you were going to do some sort of zombie movie that appeared to be set in Europe in the 1940’s with skinny, emaciated, Hasidic-looking people. If you put up that imagery people would be saying, “Are you crazy?” Well, that’s what this stuff looks like. This imagery has a history. It has a history and you can’t pretend otherwise. That imagery still has a history that has to be engaged, that has to be understood. If you’re going to tread, if you’re going to engage imagery that has that potential, the onus is on the creator to be aware of that because there will be repercussions in the marketplace.

 

[Nolan.]

Honestly did some of you who hit the reply button actually read what was written before doing so.? I think a lot of the points he makes are a little valid though with that said I think with things like this it's best to just let it slide. Mainly because nothing good ever comes of it either way since people seem to get so heated.

If someones intentions are not racist bringing the issue of race into the frame almost certainly causes a nervous uncertainty thereafter when dealing with the subject again.
If someone's intentions are racist it won't change their attitude just their approach.
If someone keeps pointing things out for people it gets annoying from both the point of the person/people being accused since no one likes that. Also the point of the person it's being pointed out to since as individuals people like to come to their own feelings on things generally. I don't think any of it's racist but some bits do seem awkward. Though maybe thats just a reflection of how sensitive societys influence has made me with things like this.

 

[Stop It]

I still dont get that argument, why isnt it racist when you shoot white people? First they are polygons, not real humans, second its only a colour of skin, it wouldnt make sense to have white people in haiti. They did it in africa because thats where humanity started if you watched the interview. nothing racist about it at all IMO.

Haiti? Africa? which one is it? Haiti is a Latin American, Caribbean Island, I'm lost for words here, have I missed somewhere or is everyone here missing their Atlas?

 

[Icarus]

It's my belief that people who search for racist imagery can probably find it in anything they look at... but it's also my belief that people who do so are themselves racist. I think there's pretty clearly no malice here.

 

[harSon]

This line from N'Gai's article is what REALLY bugged me. So oppression of other races or violence against other races does not hold any of the weight or history as violence against black people? I think the Egyptians might have something to say about that - I think Native Americans would have something to say about that - I think Jewish people might have something to say about that.

He holds here, a bit of elitism about oppression - as if black oppression is at the top of some hierarchy pyramid.

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not aware of any video games that are of this nature towards Jewish people. The stereotyping of Native Americans has unfortunately become a society norm (Sports teams for example) which has mostly to do with Native Americans being small in number. The United States has roughly 37 million Blacks, you're obviously going to hear a lot more uproar regarding this particular race.

 

[Dina]

I don't really see how they are offending anyone here.

 

[Dascu]

I still dont get that argument, why isnt it racist when you shoot white people? First they are polygons, not real humans, second its only a colour of skin, it wouldnt make sense to have white people in haiti. They did it in africa because thats where humanity started if you watched the interview. nothing racist about it at all IMO.

N'Gai gives a good example. What if there was a game where you were shooting stereotypical Jewish people? What if there was a game where you were an American colonist shooting barbaric Indians (alright, Custer's Revenge)? The portrayal of the black people in the RE5 trailer is pretty grim and menacing, even without the zombie element.

 

[Aggelos]

At least, I hope that this game will make it in Japan (and Europe) 'cuz we need. Especially I need the Japanese version.

I don't see anyone complaining that whites are often treated as red necks, smoking, foul mouthed idiots or Chinese being constantly portrayed as mobsters.

How true.
How many Holywood movies (or videogames) you see with Chinese people being constantly portrayed as mobsters?.... Isn't that racism??
Why aren't they Chinese people complaining about this? Why?


And I ask: those black people in Biohazard 5 are trying to kill the caucasian protagonist (Chris Redfield), and some times they succeed (which means "Game over"), isn't that racism?
I mean a group of black people wants to kill a white man, isnt that racism? Why do we call it "racism" when a white guy kills black people only?

 

[Duck of Death]

N'Gai makes his point very clear:

There was stuff like even before the point in the trailer where the crowd turned into zombies. There sort of being, in sort of post-modern parlance, they’re sort of “othered.” They’re hidden in shadows, you can barely see their eyes, and the perspective of the trailer is not even someone who’s coming to help the people. It’s like they’re all dangerous; they all need to be killed. It’s not even like one cute African — or Haitian or Caribbean — child could be saved. They’re all dangerous men, women and children. They all have to be killed. And given the history, given the not so distant post-colonial history, you would say to yourself, why would you uncritically put up those images? It’s not as simple as saying, “Oh, they shot Spanish zombies in ‘Resident Evil 4,’ and now ‘black zombies and that’s why people are getting upset.” The imagery is not the same. It doesn’t carry the same history, it doesn’t carry the same weight. I don’t know how to explain it more clearly than that.

I think he's spot-on.

 

[Jenga]

Who is N'gai again? Some videogame commenter or something?

 

[Tobor]

Is this the LocoRoco blackface controversy all over again? I'm going to have to agree with sp0rsk here: The people making this game aren't even aware that they're offending anybody, they just don't know because they don't have that history.



That's basically it.

Or is N'Gai's complaint that gamers aren't more in an uproar about this allegedly blatant racist imagery? That people are too racially numb and gamers are too focused on "omg RE5 Chris Redfield punchin' zombies" to notice the import of the game's visual language?

I think N'Gai's imposing some of his complaints about American society in a place where they don't really fit.

I don't buy this either. They are making a game they hope to sell predominantly in the United States, and are basically walking into a cultural buzzsaw. Hire an American over there with some insight.

 

[sprsk]

You do know that makes it worse right? If any media is going to cover a certain subject, at least do the proper research prior to it. IF Capcom are just thinking "Ooh, Haiti, Zombies, they come from there, lets set Resi 5 there!" and making the rest up as they go along, they deserve all criticism that comes their way.

I hope, really hope they aren't that stupid, especially based off what we have seen so far, the game itself may be great, but you can't go around playing to stereotypes and not expect a firestorm to follow it.

The problem with this logic is that you think that black people all around the world = African Americans.

 

[MWS Natural]

Resident Evil 4 is racist against Spaniards.

This is why you can't do anything, black enemies? Racist. Black lead character? Racist.

Set games in Europe killing white people and no one cares.

Aren't people from Spain considered caucasian? I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.

 

[Kandrick]

I dont see whats the problem really,

There are tons of games where you kill arabs/asians, and nobody out there nobody gives a shit about it. Why dont they talk about those games ?

But when it happen that a game, where a guy kills black people "in a country where 99.9 of population is black, SHOCKING" like RE5, people start talking about racism.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I still dont get that argument, why isnt it racist when you shoot white people? First they are polygons, not real humans, second its only a colour of skin, it wouldnt make sense to have white people in haiti. They did it in africa because thats where humanity started if you watched the interview. nothing racist about it at all IMO.

he's talking about the imagery and the history behind it. There is no such history with spaniards (from RE4) like there is with black people. N'Gai is just saying the imagery evokes some racist history. I mean, if you made a game where a cop goes back in time and attacks a bunch of slave sharecroppers in the deep south it would look a lot like RE5. I don't think N'Gai is saying the game developers are racist (if he is i disagree completely) but that they just weren't aware of the history and didn't know any better.

 

[Kosma]

Ngai needs to stop acting as a fucking historian, he doesnt know shit and his examples suck.

This is no way the same as if these zombies were depicted as World War 2 jews. Not even fucking close.

He is talking out of his ass.

 

[harSon]

:lol

What about Indians?

Are you saying;

Blacks>>>>Indians or any other race for that matter?

Did I say that? It's not like I can cover every race within a small posting, I'm not writing a fucking research paper. I simply said Blacks everywhere have an extremely unfortunate history, Native Americans would fit under this as well.

 

[Y2Kev]

To look at another, very much accepted artform, if I paint a picture of KKK members killing a black person..does that make me racist? If make a movie depicting it?

I think I made a very important distinction in describing the imagery as (potentially) racist. I don't think that 100 Japanese men in a tiny office building sleeping under their desks to meet deadline are racist.

On the same token, no, it doesn't necessarily make you racist. But you could be. You could be D. W. Griffith for all I know.

The events in RE5 aren't even remotely that close to forging a racist connection from a historic perspective. You're killing these zombies because they are zombies, not because they're black zombies.

The developers should put a test of your racism in the game! Throw in a lone white zombie! Test the player's reaction? (Duh, the player will shoot it too).

I think it's difficult to tell they are zombies at first glance. They look and act pretty human in what we've seen. I think people just see these zombies as ravenous, inhuman animals (because that's what zombies are) and freak out because, well, in history that connection has been drawn much more definitively and without any layer of abstraction.

 

[antiloop]

Maybe we should stop killing "people" altogether in video games.


We could sell virtual flowers instead.

Edit: NVM that would offend the flowers...

 

[alr1ght]

I have to admit when i first saw it i didn't get offended, but i did think "Hmm, this is going to offend somebody...". Its a little touchy because of the history particularly in this country, but i still think its a case of oversensitivity.

same. This game will not be released in it's current or intended form. To dampen the "Al Sharpton's" criticism and others of his ilk, there will be other races present in the final version or other drastic changes; whether that was Capcom's original intention or not. There's one thing that gets people up in arms more than (videogame) violence, and that's (videogame) racism.

it's really hard to make a judgment about what Capcom was thinking because we really haven't seen much of the game or its story, only shots in the same small village.

I just want to play the game, dammit.

 

[sprsk]

N'Gai makes his point very clear:



I think he's spot-on.

Do you remember any cute Spaniards in RE4? Context people. Context makes a world of difference. We have no idea why these people are the way they are, and it's stupid to assume we do.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Read the article, watched the video, and still don't see it. It's just being very over-sensitve.

You have to wonder if any of this fuss would be happening if they'd invented a new lead character for RE5 who was black instead of going with Chris Redfield ...

 

[Zzoram]

.

 

[Htown]

So many people in this thread are not even listening.

Er... reading.

 

[harSon]

The problem with this logic is that you think that black people all around the world = African Americans.

Haiti is one of (or the poorest?) countries in the world for a reason.

 

[Tobor]

The problem with this logic is that you think that black people all around the world = African Americans.

That's irrelevant. If you plan to sell a game worldwide, you need to do the research on how to sell the product in each market. Does Capcom not have a US branch anymore?

 

[Kosma]

he's talking about the imagery and the history behind it. There is no such history with spaniards (from RE4) like there is with black people. N'Gai is just saying the imagery evokes some racist history. I mean, if you made a game where a cop goes back in time and attacks a bunch of slave sharecroppers in the deep south it would look a lot like RE5. I don't think N'Gai is saying the game developers are racist (if he is i disagree completely) but that they just weren't aware of the history and didn't know any better.

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SPANISH HISTORY? OH NOTHING WAIT SO SHUT UP.

 

[Kandrick]

same. This game will not be released in it's current or intended form. To dampen the "Al Sharpton's" criticism and others of his ilk, there will be other races present in the final version or other drastic changes; whether that was Capcom's original intention or not. There's one thing that gets people up in arms more than (videogame) violence, and that's (videogame) racism.

it's really hard to make a judgment about what Capcom was thinking because we really haven't seen much of the game or its story, only shots in the same small village.

I just want to play the game, dammit.

Wrong, sex it is.

 

[jax (old)]

wow. n'gai is completely off base and retarded here. Nothing more to say.

 

[gofreak]

N'Gai makes his point very clear:



I think he's spot-on.

As I said, even a depiction that was directly linked to historic events wouldn't necessarily be racist. This one isn't even that.

His talk about the depiction of the characters is ridiculous. THEY'RE ZOMBIES, for crying out loud. That's why they're depicted like that. And who knows, maybe there'll be non-zombie people in the game for you to save (not that there has to be for it to be 'not racist').

I think it's difficult to tell they are zombies at first glance. They look and act pretty human in what we've seen. I think people just see these zombies as ravenous, inhuman animals (because that's what zombies are) and freak out because, well, in history that connection has been drawn much more definitively and without any layer of abstraction.

It's resident evil. They're zombies, or irreversibly on their way to being zombies.

If the game was just about shooting black people, portraying black people as inhuman or whatever, then maybe I'd see the point. But it's about zombies!

 

[Stop It]

The problem with this logic is that you think that black people all around the world = African Americans.

Not really, being English the majority of black people I have came into contact with are either of West Indian, or African origin, remember to check peoples profiles before you comment on their ethnic knowledge based on their location, eh? I thought you would have known better.

 

[harSon]

Do you remember any cute Spaniards in RE4? Context people. Context makes a world of difference. We have no idea why these people are the way they are, and it's stupid to assume we do.

I don't recall any of the zombies in Resident Evil 4 looking like:

 

[Nolan.]

I don't buy this either. They are making a game they hope to sell predominantly in the United States, and are basically walking into a cultural buzzsaw. Hire an American over there with some insight.

Another reason that excuse really doesn't hold up is the fact that a lot of these guys travel a lot, you learn better (unless of course you refuse not to).

 

[elbkhm]

It seems like N'Gai's main point isn't that it's racist, it's that people outside the industry are going to see it as racist, and it's going to cause problems. I mean, if Mass Effect turned into a "Virtual Orgasmic Rape Simulator", what the hell is the media going to make of this?

 

[LCGeek]

To look at another, very much accepted artform, if I paint a picture of KKK members killing a black person..does that make me racist? If make a movie depicting it?

Those are depictions of events that actually do have a historic link to racist people and events, but EVEN THAT wouldn't necessarily make the work racist, nor its author.

The events in RE5 aren't even remotely that close to forging a racist connection from a historic perspective. It's a fictional concept. You're killing these zombies because they are zombies, not because they're black zombies.

The developers should put a test of your racism in the game! Throw in a lone white zombie! Test the player's reaction? (Duh, the player will shoot it too). It's not about race unless you consider zombies to be a race.

Your intent makes you racist though I think that's part of your point. That's the problem at the same time not everyone who sees RE5 is gonna be laid back and accept capcom didn't mean any harms.

I've said this in OT forum when race comes up, nations as a group need to get rid of period. Our skin color has more to do with where live we are one species and race does nothing but keep a lot of people in this world divided which is it's intent by a lot of people who make this world work.

 

[pn18]

Please Capcom, make 'em white and stop the debate. Thank you.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I agree with everything that N'Gai said here.

Is the imagery racist in intent? Perhaps not. Is it racially insensitive? You bet.

What I see from the trailer is that Capcom took the concept from another idea (Black Hawk Down) and transplanted it almost wholesale into RE5. Is its purpose to be racist? I hardly think so. However to do something like this, it should be Capcom's first expectation that there would be some sort of backlash to the imagery. It is the seeming disregard for the ramifications of what will happen that can be construed as insensitive. Why SHOULDN'T people find this offensive? Why shouldn't people find other stereotypes in gaming, such as overly sexualized women or the scads of violence offensive?

The think I can't stand about gamers is the constant persecution complex. The way to properly address these issues is to stare them straight in the face and talk about them openly and honestly, not sweeping the issue under the rug and blindly defending the practice. Cries of "What the fuck!" and "I guess Resident Evil 4 was racist too!" or "But there are plenty of other stereotypical games!" does nothing to address the problem as we're seeing it now. This is why media watchdogs and pundits choose videogames as a culture to attack; because its supporters would prefer to pretend nothing's wrong with anything than face the issue.

 

[Kandrick]

Please Capcom, make 'em white and stop the debate. Thank you.

Thats racist!

 

[Wollan]

 

[Jacobi]

N'Gai should drink two cups of STFU. Two big, full cups. That guy gets too much attentention and this is the most retarded thing I've ever read. Does he even play games anymore? Haven't seen many children in WW2-games, yet N'Gai doesn't give a shit.

 

[antiloop]

Please Capcom, make 'em white and stop the debate. Thank you.

Rainbow colors, please.