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[Dahbomb]

Playing the game in the most abusive way possible isn't rewarded just as much as it isn't punished. The fact that God Hand can be completed in a multitude of ways on the highest difficulty where a ton of moves and strategies are viable is what makes it an engaging experience that can be tailored to any specific player.

This statement can be applied to every action game even bad ones. The point is that some other games do punish you for it (indirectly) or reward you for mixing up your strategy/play/moves and they have superior balance and depth at the highest level of play.

 

[nailbombxx]

Played on normal in Bayonetta & was able to spam the YYYYY combo for every enemy & every boss.
Been watching some MG Rising walkthroughs & it looks to be the same.

You are only experiencing about 10% of the game then. There are hundreds of combos and each of the many weapons have a plethora of unique attacks.

That's like using only the Rebellion throughout all of DMC3 or the Dragon Blade throughout all of NGB.

 

[nullref]

You could, but there is probably a very good reason why it doesn't happen in games like this. When it does, they're usually added well after the design and fundamentals have been established and then they're mostly functional clones of the main character, like the Ninja Gaiden Sigma girls. Nero is an interesting case and plays pretty uniquely despite being mostly a stripped down Dante with certain abilities replaced with contextual moves and just frame attacks.

I agree, it certainly seems to be difficult. I was just pointing out that it doesn't seem impossible, and that's what gives me pause in using it as a genre distinction.

The idea was just to try and come up with a distinct sub-genre that fit games like DMC and NGB. 3D action is very broad, and hack and slash is more evocative of simpler games like Musou/Ninety-Nine Nights.

Yeah, the question is whether something like Ninety-Nine Nights constitutes a different genre, or is just a shallow/inferior instance of the same genre. I'm not sure, but I lean towards the latter.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Saying a game is a button masher is a reflection of your skill level and how you choose to play a game, not a reflection of the game's quality.

The fuck?
You might be able to button mash through NG & DMC for about 5 seconds until the enemies & game mechanics kick you ass. You NEED to learn how to play them, you NEED to be able to master the moves to get anywhere in those games (except for NG3 & DmC).

With Bayonetta & apparently MG Rising, doing anything other than straight up button mashing is just for show.
So what, the games have tons of combos & moves, if absolutely none of them are needed whatsoever in the progression of the game, the game is then a button masher.

In fact times I tried varying up my attacks in Bayonetta & found that they were either less effective overall & opened me up to getting hit compared to the YYYYY combo & spamming the dodge button afterwards.

 

[Retro_]

Diary of a Stone Rank player

 

[Korigama]

With Bayonetta & apparently MG Rising, doing anything other than straight up button mashing is just for show.

So basically, you've never actually played this to know that for certain then.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Played on normal in Bayonetta & was able to spam the YYYYY combo for every enemy & every boss.
Been watching some MG Rising walkthroughs & it looks to be the same.

Congratulations, you completed the tutorial.

Come back when you've actually finished Bayonetta

 

[Dahbomb]

You can beat every action game using the most basic moves BUT are you getting SS/Platinum rank and beating the game at a speed run caliber on the highest difficulty? That is where the depth in these game lie, where you can keep pushing your performance by digging deeper into the game's mechanics.

Just because you beat the game by mashing doesn't mean that's the most optimal way to play.

 

[Retro_]

Congratulations, you completed the tutorial.

Come back when you've actually finished Bayonetta

You're not finished the tutorial until you've gotten the Platinum trophy

then it's time to learn how scoring works and get better ranks. Understanding the less intuitive properties of your moveset and really push your limits as a player

People mistakenly compare MNM to NSIC and come to the conclusion that NGB is much harder, which isn't fair. What people should be comparing MNM to is a Pure Platinum run of that difficulty

 

[Tain]

Saying a game is a button masher is a reflection of your skill level and how you choose to play a game, not a reflection of the game's quality.

I can't think of a good reason (from a critical standpoint) to have the default difficulty levels of Rising, Bayonetta, Max Anarchy, and others be as easy as they are. While playing a single pass on Normal is ignoring a lot of the content in these games, these games would be undeniably better if they were hard enough on their standard difficulties to force players to learn the mechanics more intimately. These easy standard difficulties are an even bigger crime when the harder ones are locked and force players to spoil much of the game with an easier playthrough.

Ideally, the difficulty curve of something like Bayonetta would happen organically over one big normal-to-hardest playthrough rather than be cut up over multiple difficulty levels.

 

[Supermanisdead]

& apparently MG Rising

wait, stop. you haven't played it?

See You Next Wednesday indeed; hopefully you'll have the game by then.

 

[Dahbomb]

SYNW doesn't seem to know that Dodge Offset exists in Bayo otherwise he wouldn't have made the comment about being forced to use YYYY because the other moves leave you open before their completion.

 

[Risette]

People mistakenly compare MNM to NSIC and come to the conclusion that NGB is much harder, which isn't fair. What people should be comparing MNM to is a Pure Platinum run of that difficulty

If you have to reference a score/ranking system in order to make it artificially harder, you've already lost.

 

[Riposte]

If you look at Bayonetta as one game as you go through Normal, Hard, and NSIC, then the pacing goes to shit. It is like... you can't have it both ways.

 

[P90]

It is hard for me to pick a "best" action game. Am I the only one that thinks Onimusha should also be in the mix?

What differentiates an action game versus an action/adventure game?

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Just because you beat the game by mashing doesn't mean that's the most optimal way to play.

It's still just a fancy (fun) button masher.
Ninja Gaiden, DMC & games like Dark Souls are physically impossible to blindly mash your way through the game. The game won't let you period, but Bayonetta let's you with little to no penalty or drawbacks.

I started hard mode as well after finishing the game, but by that time I was able to afford the Infinite Climax Bracelet & was able to continue to spam the YYYYY move even on the harder faster enemies.

 

[nailbombxx]

The fuck?
You might be able to button mash through NG & DMC for about 5 seconds until the enemies & game mechanics kick you ass. You NEED to learn how to play them, you NEED to be able to master the moves to get anywhere in those games (except for NG3 & DmC).

Think about what you are saying. How do people get Platinum ranks in Bayonetta, especially on the harder difficulties? You have to master perfect dodging and dodge offsets to deal damage effectively, or else you will get your shit wrecked and get a garbage score. You simply think that those mechanics aren't necessary because you scrubbed your way on your first normal difficulty playthrough.

With Bayonetta & apparently MG Rising, doing anything other than straight up button mashing is just for show.
So what, the games have tons of combos & moves, if absolutely none of them are needed whatsoever in the progression of the game, the game is then a button masher.

You could say the exact same thing about Ninja Gaiden. It has tons of combos but you can deal with most of the humanoid enemies just with flying swallow and Izuna Drop. You could say that about any action game that has a wide range of possible combos. Your idea of a "button masher" is a clear misconception. A button masher is a game that has no possibilities other than repetitive attacks, not a game where you are just too lazy to do anything interesting.

In fact times I tried varying up my attacks in Bayonetta & found that they were either less effective overall & opened me up to getting hit compared to the YYYYY combo & spamming the dodge button afterwards.

This is the whole point of the dodge offset. Its a solution that lets you pull off all of those lengthy, devastating combos while dodging interrupting enemies. This is one of the reasons why Bayonetta is a cut above NGB and DMC3, in which you must stop and reset a combo string just to dodge out of the way.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Lotta artificial rule making for y'all favorite games

 

[Retro_]

Lotta artificial rule making for y'all favorite games

you mean like not using the safest methods and attacks over and over because it makes the game not fun?

If you have to reference a score/ranking system in order to make it artificially harder, you've already lost.

What does this even mean?

The games are designed with these scoring systems in mind, and achieving the highest ranks was designed to be hard

 

[nullref]

I can't think of a good reason (from a critical standpoint) to have the default difficulty levels of Rising, Bayonetta, Max Anarchy, and others be as easy as they are. While playing a single pass on Normal is ignoring a lot of the content in these games, these games would be undeniably better if they were hard enough on their standard difficulties to force players to learn the mechanics more intimately. These easy standard difficulties are an even bigger crime when the harder ones are locked and force players to spoil much of the game with an easier playthrough.

Ideally, the difficulty curve of something like Bayonetta would happen organically over one big normal-to-hardest playthrough rather than be cut up over multiple difficulty levels.

Yup. People forget that things like difficulty levels and optional levels of challenge through scoring are compromises, rather than ideals. In games based primarily on stage progression, they exist to make it practical for developers to cater to a broader range of skill levels.

As Tain said, in an ideal world, these games would be balanced around taking all your individual skill and effort to get to the end, in a single well-paced progression. But, players have different skill levels, and we don't live in an ideal world, so difficulty levels and scoring systems are practical compromises. But it's good to keep in mind that that's what they are.

 

[d0c_zaius]

Played on normal in Bayonetta & was able to spam the YYYYY combo for every enemy & every boss.
Been watching some MG Rising walkthroughs & it looks to be the same.

looks like hes got it all figured out then. nothing to see here, everyone...you can go home.

in all seriousness, you can't think the examples you provided are anything close to a legit analysis of anything.

The fuck?
You might be able to button mash through NG & DMC for about 5 seconds until the enemies & game mechanics kick you ass. You NEED to learn how to play them, you NEED to be able to master the moves to get anywhere in those games (except for NG3 & DmC).

With Bayonetta & apparently MG Rising, doing anything other than straight up button mashing is just for show.
So what, the games have tons of combos & moves, if absolutely none of them are needed whatsoever in the progression of the game, the game is then a button masher.

In fact times I tried varying up my attacks in Bayonetta & found that they were either less effective overall & opened me up to getting hit compared to the YYYYY combo & spamming the dodge button afterwards.

nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope.

apparently you really like assumptions.

wow based on your post below I'm just going to pat you on the head and say "ok".

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Your idea of a "button masher" is a clear misconception. A button masher is a game that has no possibilities other than repetitive attacks, not a game where you are just too lazy to do anything interesting.

Nah, there have been tons of other games throughout the years that had a lot of moves & a lot of fancy combos, but none of them were ever needed or were balanced to use over spamming the attack button over & over.

If I wanted to get platinum rank in every battle or if I wanted to get all the achievements or even if I handicapped myself intentionally, then I would have to learn the combos & whatnot, BUT to just play the game through from start to finish on the regular default difficulty, that is absolutely not needed.

That is what sets it apart from Ninja Gaiden Black & DMC3, which are still talked nearly 9 years after their release as the premier action games & will be talked about for years to come.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Move balance is needed to make move choices have impact and give the game depth. It's why so many people consider DMC3SE to be the best action game ever created because the balance is impeccable. All these games are played at high skill level and that's where the depth is extrapolated.

I didn't ruin the game for myself by using a few moves to cheese through the game, I used a method of play that is the safest and most efficient in a game. It didn't require much skill or thought hence why move balance is important in these single player games.

This is silly. Some moves/weapons are meant to be under powered/Overpowered. It gives players incentive to adapt their playstyle on subsequent playthroughs.

Its no different from deciding to abuse/not to abuse mechanics in a game. You yourself showed me how DMC4 Royal release effectively breaks the game, no different from DTE and a whole bunch of other moves in the hands of the right player in DMC3SE.

You say DMC3SE has impeccable balance, but there is actually no drawback to any weapon in the same way there is with the nunchucks, wooden sword, windmill shruken in NGB.

You can't talk about "safe and most efficient" Play in a game that your meant to play for score (karma). UT's are actually often the greatest waste of time in a encounter but they ofset that with their points reward.

 

[GuardianE]

Having a vast moveset isn't indicative of redundancy or superficial depth. The reason why DMC3 is such a strong game for me is because you can play it however you want to play it, and you can challenge yourself as much as you want to be challenged. If you're satisfied with looking like a total scrub while playing, then that suits you just fine. If you want to do something that takes actual skill, then the groundwork is laid before you.

The sheer freedom you have in the game gives it near limitless potential... or rather limited only by the player him/herself.

 

[Risette]

The games are designed with these scoring systems in mind, and achieving the highest ranks was designed to be hard

Scoring systems are supplementary.

You can't compare a NSIC PP run to a MNM run. You can only compare a NSIC run and a MNM run.

 

[GuardianE]

Scoring systems are supplementary.

You can't compare a NSIC PP run to a MNM run. You can only compare a NSIC run and a MNM run.

Why?

Serious question. MNM is arguably designed around using items and surviving. I think everyone can agree that Ninja Gaiden's Karma scoring system is ass in campaign, and always has been. NSIC mode is designed around style and point scoring. I don't see how ignoring the fundamental focus of each game is doing either any favors.

 

[nailbombxx]

Nah, there have been tons of other games throughout the years that had a lot of moves & a lot of fancy combos, but none of them were ever needed or were balanced to use over spamming the attack button over & over.

That is what sets it apart from Ninja Gaiden Black & DMC3, which are still talked nearly 9 years after their release as the premier action games & will be talked about for years to come.

So explain to me, at what point in those games is it absolutely necessary to use the whole moveset?

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Why?

because you should compare it to a MNM karma run?

 

[d0c_zaius]

So explain to me, at what point in those games is it absolutely necessary to use the whole moveset?

just the idea of NGB needing the whole moveset is a complete joke. next people will say ALL WEAPONZ ARE KEY TO VICTOLY.

 

[Retro_]

Scoring systems are supplementary.

You can't compare a NSIC PP run to a MNM run. You can only compare a NSIC run and a MNM run.

I don't agree with that

To me that's like saying Metal Slug 3 is an easy game because you can just credit feed to completion, and that a 1CC is a supplementary way to play, despite the game being designed around making it difficult, but achievable to clear on one credit.

You're throwing out entire aspects of how these games are designed to fit your argument.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I really am not understanding this thread.

On one hand people are defending DMC3SE saying it gives you total creative freedom to play the game your way, but in the other breath knocking NGB saying it should only be played one way and its extensive move list is redundant.


You couldn't make this shit up.

 

[Risette]

I don't agree with that

To me that's like saying Metal Slug 3 is an easy game because you can just credit feed to completion, and that a 1CC is a supplementary way to play, despite the game being designed around making it difficult, but achievable to clear on one credit.

You're throwing out entire aspects of how these games are designed to fit your argument.

You're making up an alternate reality where these games are designed around the scoring system. They aren't. The scoring systems are designed around the games.

 

[GuardianE]

I really am not understanding this thread.

On one hand people are defending DMC3SE saying it gives you total creative freedom to play the game your way, but in the other breath knocking NGB saying it should only be played one way and its extensive move list is redundant.


You couldn't make this shit up.

There are two major points that have been brought up recently that I wholeheartedly disagree with, regardless of what game you're defending or attacking, and so I wanted to say the following:

1) Games with huge superfluous movesets are not "button mashers" by default.

2) A game's design and focus should be considered when making over generalized comparisons, and this may or may not include a scoring system.

You're making up an alternate reality where these games are designed around the scoring system. They aren't. The scoring systems are designed around the games.

Sure, in the example of NG and NG2, the scoring system was designed around the game... it's atrocious and broken, with arbitrary bonuses and ridiculous farming techniques. In a game like DMC, the scoring system was a part of the actual game design and should be treated as such.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I think it comes down to the fact that DMC3/DMC4 are pretty much slaves to their scoring system. I hesitate to call the scoring in DMC3/DMC4 arbitrary because pretty much every aspect of the game was designed around it - from the way normal enemies attack to to the characters moveset. In these games the scoring is not optional to view and is extremely pronounced (it is as in your face as it can get). It wouldn't really be unreasonable if these games demanded a certain score to even progress through the game. In NGB the scoring is an afterthought and is pretty fucking horrible (and is defaulted to not even show IIRC). NGB is only interested in giving you hard stage progression but DMC3/DMC4 is serving two masters (stage progression and scoring).

I loved beating the NG series games on Master Ninja but I also enjoy DMC3/DMC4 for ranks (and I think the stage progression of these games gets dogged on just a bit much, I still find DMC3 DMD to be pretty tough but maybe I am just bad or something).

 

[Vazra]

I really am not understanding this thread.

On one hand people are defending DMC3SE saying it gives you total creative freedom to play the game your way, but in the other breath knocking NGB saying it should only be played one way and its extensive move list is redundant.


You couldn't make this shit up.

Overall both sides are making shit up to glorify the games (NG,Bayonetta,DMC) when its really a matter of taste on what is the best action game criteria for the player and they will go on their own opinions which while not be correct neither incorrect its mostly what they think why X its better than Y and vice versa. IMO they should be happy there are great action games anyway instead of this devolving on a competition of which action games has the bigger e-penis of them all.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

A lot of people in this thread have said stuff along the lines of "DMC is focused on being fancy, NG is about using a few tools to survive against strong aggressive enemies". Doesn't that NG description fit DMC1 more?

 

[Risette]

(DMC3/DMC4 maybe more?)

Yes.

One of the main reasons those games are putrid. The 90% padding is strung along by it relying on you getting SSSUPER SICK rather than DDDDUMB ranks like some mouse in a skinner box.

 

[Retro_]

You're making up an alternate reality where these games are designed around the scoring system. They aren't. The scoring systems are designed around the games.

I can see how you'd think that with the way Karma ranking works in Ninja Gaiden

but in games like Bayonetta and DMC the ranking systems are tuned along with the encounter design(hence why each encounter has a different combo point and time threshold) and character moveset.(point values and how moves affect the modifier etc. all factors into moveset balance)

It's very much an organic part of the game's design

 

[Meccanical]

A lot of people in this thread have said stuff along the lines of "DMC is focused on being fancy, NG is about using a few tools to survive against strong aggressive enemies". Doesn't that NG description fit DMC1 more?

I could see a case being made for that.

That's I'm of the opinion that DMC1 and DMC3 are almost equal.

DMC3 edges it out because it the final boss is waayyyy better.

Actually in a way DMC3 end fights are kind of just DMC1's end fights in reverse order.

 

[Korigama]

A lot of people in this thread have said stuff along the lines of "DMC is focused on being fancy, NG is about using a few tools to survive against strong aggressive enemies". Doesn't that NG description fit DMC1 more?

It applies to DMC1, but not so much 3 or 4. For this reason, it's understandable why someone may like DMC1, but not care for DMC3/4 (or vice versa).

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Overall both sides are making shit up to glorify the games (NG,Bayonetta,DMC) when its really a matter of taste on what is the best action game criteria for the player and they will go on their own opinions which while not be correct neither incorrect its mostly what they think why X its better than Y and vice versa. IMO they should be happy there are great action games anyway instead of this devolving on a competition of which action games has the bigger e-penis of them all.

Yeah it is a bit mind boggling.

I love each series equally. As I earlier in this thread, you need to play and complete all of these games for me to even consider you to be someone to converse about action games with.

There is no reason to tear one down to make the other looks better. Hell im even starting to appreciate the GOW series.

This is probably going to be the best year for action games this gen. It may never get better than this. let that sink in for a second.

time to stop the silly infighting because this genre is really under threat. Its on its way to go way of the Beat em up.

 

[GuardianE]

This is probably going to be the best year for action games this gen. It may never get better than this. let that sink in for a second.

Fuck that. Any year where DmC gets released can't possibly qualify as a best year of action games.

And I'm not necessarily relieved at MGR selling well, but it sure as hell is encouraging, despite what naysayers will claim about the game riding on the Metal Gear name. I'm not convinced that the genre is under as much of a threat as Capcom's PR would have you believe.

 

[MjFrancis]

You're not finished the tutorial until you've gotten the Platinum trophy

On the Xbox 360 I got all 1000/1000 achievement points for Bayonetta. I consider myself a "competent" Bayonetta player as a result. Not an expert, not great, not even decent - merely competent.

 

[Retro_]

On the Xbox 360 I got all 1000/1000 achievement points for Bayonetta. I consider myself a "competent" Bayonetta player as a result. Not an expert, not great, not even decent - merely competent.

That's pretty much as intended

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/176858003247603714

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/80115015096610816

 

[Risette]

Sure, in the example of NG and NG2, the scoring system was designed around the game... it's atrocious and broken, with arbitrary bonuses and ridiculous farming techniques. In a game like DMC, the scoring system was a part of the actual game design and should be treated as such.

Hi,

We were talking about Bayonetta and NG. I know what DMC3/4 (please don't make defamatory statements against DMC1, it's a great game) are like in their design and interdependence on the rudimentary scoring system is one of the reasons they are terrible.

Maybe DMC3/4 would be half-decent if the enemies burst into enourmous gold cubes as part of the scoring system?

time to stop the silly infighting because this genre is really under threat. Its on its way to go way of the Beat em up.

In its current state, it deserves worse.

 

[nailbombxx]

That's pretty much as intended

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/176858003247603714

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/80115015096610816

To truly play Bayonetta you must play with inhuman precision.

I have almost 100 hours on my file but I am still struggling to master dodge offsetting.

 

[Meccanical]

Fucking Kamiya.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Fuck that. Any year where DmC gets released can't possibly qualify as a best year of action games.

And I'm not necessarily relieved at MGR selling well, but it sure as hell is encouraging, despite what naysayers will claim about the game riding on the Metal Gear name.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=512029&highlight=

whether we like it or not, there is something here for everyone. There are a few that ive missed in this list. Im sure the new Batman game is rumored to be released this year too, LOS:MOF came out today and whole bunch of Musou games are on the cards

and

Spoiler

call it wishful thinking but I think we might hear something about devils third this year

 

[GuardianE]

Hi,

We were talking about Bayonetta and NG. I know what DMC3/4 (please don't make defamatory statements against DMC1, it's a great game) are like in their design and interdependence on the rudimentary scoring system is one of the reasons they are terrible.

Maybe DMC3/4 would be half-decent if the enemies burst into enourmous gold cubes as part of the scoring system?

So, your argument boils down to... emphasis on scoring systems make bad games? That seems like a fairly radical and reductionist opinion.

Eh, I know that both NGB and DMC3 are masterpieces. I'm just glad that I'm able to appreciate both.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=512029&highlight=

whether we like it or not, there is something here for everyone. There are a few that ive missed in this list. Im sure the new Batman game is rumored to be released this year too, LOS:MOF came out last week and whole bunch of Musou games are on the cards

and

Spoiler

call it wishful thinking but I think we might hear something about devils third this year

Yeah, I saw your thread before and I don't agree with it.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

So, your argument boils down to... emphasis on scoring systems make bad games? That seems like a fairly radical and reductionist opinion.

I know that both NGB and DMC3 are masterpieces. I'm just glad that I'm able to appreciate both.




Yeah, I saw your thread before and I don't agree with it.

fair enough, but what year this gen was better? Not just for the hardcore (2008) but overall?